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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » narsisistic personality disorder: anyone dealing with friend or relativ with this?

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Author Topic: narsisistic personality disorder: anyone dealing with friend or relativ with this?
lpkayak
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i'm beginning to think i need an al-anon meeting for ppl like this

itd sad this person is dealing with this...but i have enough trouble with myself-they are making me crazy.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Rivendell
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Yes, it is very stressful. I have had hurtful experiences with this type of person (sociopathic too!)

I limit my exposure to these types of people.

You are too sick to let these people turn you into a doormat, which they do, because all they think about is themselves.

Yes, a support group would be good.

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lpkayak
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thanks. it is so hard. i tend to blame it on lyme...but still...I have lyme and dont need the extra stress.

does drinking alcohol or smoking pot make them worse?

[ 01-13-2012, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: lpkayak ]

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Dogsandcats
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it is crazy-making. you need to have strong boundaries around yourself if you can't stay away from them.

Standing up for yourself = which takes alot of energy = will help.

There are a couple of good websites with tips. Let me know if you can't find them. PM me if needed.

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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nomoremuscles
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Yes.

I've had a few in my life.

They can be very destructive.

I try to avoid them. But, unfortunately, they can be so charming that all the red flags are missed, and before you know it you are knee deep into it.

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mom2kids
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My mother has this along with a couple of other personality disorders so I unfortunately know all too well about this topic. I think my brother also has this, but it could just be that he is the "golden child" and not actually the disorder.

People with this are very toxic and require alot of energy in order to deal with them. It is sad for us, the people that have to deal with them, but they are basically sociopathic and have no feelings or empathy for others.

Drugs and alcohol can make anybody worse because it can take away any self control or inhibitions that they may have, which is probably very little to begin with.

You can (anybody) PM if you want to talk more about it.

--------------------
Down on her knees, she wept on the floor.
This hopeless life, she wanted no more.
Dead in the mind and cold to the bone,
She opened her eyes and saw she was alone. ~Seether

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Rivendell
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Did this start with Lyme? Did I understand you to say that you blame it on this person having Lyme?

Lyme Disease can cause personality changes, so if Lyme is behind it, then the best thing for him/her would be help for inflammation in the brain.

Japanese Knotweed, Fish Oil, both help with mood swings, depression, cognitive function, and help to repair nerves.

Lyme narcisisim could be a form of cognitive dysfunction, like beginning Alzheimer's that can bring profound personality changes.

If it is caused by Lyme, then healing of brain and nervous system inflammation is needed.

BUT, protect yourself. You only have so much energy.

Good Luck.

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sparkle7
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I have had to deal with many people who had mental disabilities & problems. Ultimately, you have to take care of yourself. You can't help someone if they are drownding you...

These things are complicated. You may need to make space & create boundaries - like dogsandcats mentioned.

Alcohol can make things alot worse but it's hard to change others. Sometimes, you just have to look out for yourself. I have seen pot smoking as helpful to some degree with people with mental issues but I'm sure it's an individual thing. It's probably better for people to smoke pot than do some of the pharma drugs out there but I'm no doctor. I don't care for either pot nor alcohol.

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lpkayak
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thank you all again...i think i will contact some of you or maybe we can support each other here

i know he has untxed lyme...but his new decision is...hes so mad at the medical community for not knowing how to cure lyme he refuses tx until they know exactly what one has to do to be cured

ive offered to give him buhner herbs etc...but he refuses

does his own thing

i just stopped typing to sigh...deeply.

i did some reading about it and we did have a ruff childhood...that is one of the "causes"

but the other 5 of us married and had kids...he didnt. thats not to say we are all super-mentally healthy...but we are living a little more "normal" life-what ever that is

i am sad you guys are dealing with this but glad i found you.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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randibear
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i've got a sister like this. sadly we not longer have any communication. lots of stuff happened after mom died.

you have to let go. it will just make you sicker.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Haley
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I recently got out of a long relationship with someone with this disorder. I didn't really understand how dysfunctional the relationship was until I read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Wizard-Oz-Other-Narcissists-Relationship/dp/0972072837

This really helped me a lot. Can't believe someone posted about this.

Problem is, as someone posted, these people are often very bright and charming, so you start to wonder if the issues are yours and not his/hers.

My x was an MD... incredibly bright ... but, I now am aware that he is incredibly messed up as we all are. We all have defense mechanisms.

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robbiem
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There are people out there -- and many of them, that are energetic vampires, truly -- and do and will suck the life out of you if you allow them to.

You have to let him figure it all out re: Lyme.

This illness - these infections - force us to rethink alot as far as what is healthy -- and learning that although it may be hard, sometimes you just have to walk away.

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lpkayak
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haley-thank you for the title...i am sorry you went thru that. i have a very bright, quick witted, wonderful friend who's first husband has it. it took her awhile to figure it out...but now she is with a great guy and she has been helping me. she has lyme and i dont want to wear her out so i am glad i have connected with everyone here.

randi-after my dad died a lot happened and my sister and i didnt talk for 10 yrs...some how we did get talking again.

now its one dil that has decided not to talk to me. and like robbiem says...i am just having to let it go

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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farraday
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Part of being a successful survivor is learning how to care for oneself and how to walk away from hurtful relationships. It isn't easy...but it IS essential. It is difficult to realize that there are people without a conscience, people with destructive agendas.

Lyme disease is more than enough of an insult to our bodies and souls. Let us all support each other in the choice to avoid other harm, in whatever form it presents itself.

--------------------
DOCTOR: "I don't think you are sick."
PATIENT: "We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't think you are a doctor."

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TerryK
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I've known a number of ppl with this personality trait. From what I've seen, it only gets worse with illness.

Personally, I find the best word to learn with ppl like that is NO!!! One can get trapped if not careful so NO becomes a good word to be able to say.

Robbiem, I totally agree with your comment about energy vampires. There is one relative that drains me everytime I have contact with her. I just have to limit contact. She is very needy (sick with lots of needs and in denial). I do help her out when I can but not to the point of ruin.

Haley - thanks for providing the link. It looks like a useful book.

lpkayak - sorry you have this to deal with in addition to everything else. [Frown]

Terry

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Dogsandcats
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They suck you in and you never see it coming...takes everything to figure out what is real and what isn't cause they get you so confused......

Caution in getting entangled is the key.

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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daystar1952
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I would like to continue to talk with others about this subject. I can't believe this subject was posted at a time when I am just discovering this about my mother...and I'm 60!She is 93!!!! I'm an only child and always knew she had some personality quirks.

I never wanted to be around her for long but never knew why.I have a friend who just went through a horrible divorce. She thinks her husband was a psychopath...a step up from a narcissist. I began doing research with her and through the research discovered my mother must have NPD with added paranoia.

At first I thought she was getting Alzheimer's but the neurologist told her she didn't have that but that there was a section in her frontal lobe that had age related changes. She had lost her license after an accident that was her fault. That totally escalated the NPD(she's furious that her license was taken away)...plus people with NPD hate to age because everything with them is based on appearances.

There is a point here I am trying to make but I feel as if I'm having trouble getting to it.:>)

Ok...here goes...we have often heard from the medical community...even the docs on our side....that the people who come down with CFS, chronic lyme...and possibly other similar illnesses, were abused as children.

I had always thought that I was the exception. I was rarely even spanked and basically I thought I had a happy childhood. But now that I look back I can see that I was always walking on eggshells around my mother and that this caused pretty much a low grade chronic stress.As an adult I am very sensitive to stress and need to pace myself and stay out of stressful situations.

I have a girlfriend who has the same type of brain fog/fatigue and other symptoms that I equate with chronic lyme. She also has a mother very much like mine. The similarities between our mothers and our health are striking.

So.....I'm wondering how many chronic lymers have had some sort of chronic stress in their past and I'm wondering if fatigued adrenal glands set us up for chronic illness...whether it's from lyme or something else? Any thoughts?

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lpkayak
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gee...farraday...that made me cry. not sure why.

daystar-i have had the chronic stress and had a hard chikdhood...more neglectful than abusive but i never heard that that history was common with "lymies"


i read all i could of the book on the link and it opened my eyes more

im glad i took the chance and started this

just heard in tv someone reminding ppl how when on an airplane if there is a problem you are told to put the airmask on yourself first...so you are strong enough to help others. similar idea and easy visual to remember about taking care of ourselves first is not selfish.

[ 01-21-2012, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: lpkayak ]

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Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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mom2kids
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There is a website called "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers". It has a lot of good info there on the disorder and some others too. I cannot read the threads on there very often because it seemed to me that most of the people there were very "angry" about their lives.

It's good for me to go there every so often to read their stories and know that I am not alone, but I can't handle the anger on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why they are mad, I just can't live in a state of constant anger. It happened, your childhood sucked, you're an adult, let it go and move on. If you spend your life angry then you can't enjoy anything and you become a toxic person yourself.

That is just how I have to live my life, I know not all people look at it this way. I also believe that holding onto and being angry at everything her entire life is one of the factors that made my mom what she is and I refuse to go down that road.

As far as "bad childhoods" being a factor in CFS or Lyme or whatever illness. Look at the statistics, of course it's going to look like people with bad/stressful childhoods have these illnesses because most people have had some kind of abuse, stress or neglect in their life.

Again, just my opinion, I'm not a Dr. or researcher, just saying...

--------------------
Down on her knees, she wept on the floor.
This hopeless life, she wanted no more.
Dead in the mind and cold to the bone,
She opened her eyes and saw she was alone. ~Seether

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Robin123
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Just thinking about this - seems to me that most abusive people are also hurt, and angry at someone or someones in their formative life. When people feel victimized, they don't usually see when they're victimizing others.

The way out, it seems to me, is to look at their lives and how they got hurt. That cam take some of the sting out of it when they come down on us, and yes, I agree, boundaries are needed, as in that's you and not me.

It could be an intergenerational stack of abusiveness, with one generation abusing the next - ie, everyone's hurt.

So that means recovery work, as in recovering what it means to function humanely, as an inside job and with others.

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Dogsandcats
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It takes so much brain power to be around them....and of all things Lyme messes with your brain. Makes it doubly hard.

Letting go of anger and forgiveness has been a journey for me, but every step forward i take makes me healthier and peaceful.

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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CherylSue
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My brother's first wife had this. I researched it and actually diagnosed her before it was later confirmed. She is a sociopath, as well. Although at times she can be exceedingly charming and seemingly sincere, she is VERY DANGEROUS. People she has associated with have died mysterious deaths. My brother was lucky he got away and moved out of state.

Do the research. There's a lot out there. People are born with this disorder and it usually settles in about 14 years of age. It may even be genetic. Therapy or medication can't change them, but therapy may calm them down a bit. Altruistic acts and volunteering may temper it a bit, but these people have no conscience whatsoever. It's like someone cut out their hearts of empathy, and it's the coldest feeling in the world to know these people.

Limit your contact with them. Don't get engaged in their lives if you can help it. Don't try to rationalize with them or confront them. The best thing is to agree with them and play neutral like you don't really think badly of them. Compliment them and play along, but don't stay long in their orbit.

Don't try to understand them. If you did, you would have to be one of them. Thank God you don't understand them. Just protect yourself, okay?

Best of luck.

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lpkayak
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i understand what so many of you are sayiong

i have heard this person complain bitterly about his father and the fathers lack of guidance

at one point i felt like i should be afraid of them...and tried to talk myself out of it

now i know i wasnt that far off in my thinking...

i have learend so much about this is such a short time...thanks you all so much

but no question...i need to take care of me

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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farraday
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When trying to explain our DIL's childish, angry and entirely selfish behavior our psychiatrist asked us if she had a conscience. We had not thought of that and realized that she did not. Then we were told that when children are abused they often remain forever at that age....they are unable to mature. And when their own children reach that age it makes their mother spiral downhill quite rapidly.

That is exactly what happened. She is like a spoiled eight year old with a driver's license and a credit card. Her daughter calls her "It". She wants to have 100% of my son's attention, does not interact with the kids except to command them to do things for her.

Every single relative and friend tells him to get a divorce. But he feels responsible for her and is afraid that she will get visitation rights and he does not want her to use the kids to get at him because she could harm them. He wants to keep them close by so he can protect them.

There is such a thing as a "custody study" that a lawyer can order and we urge him to get one. We are sure that the psychiatrist will back him, in fact has even mentioned putting her into a facility.

We have a friend who is a judge in family court. She was adamant that he get the study and get his wife out of the lives of the children.

But I am dealing with Flagyl/Ketek, my husband is also on the abx and our younger son insists that we focus on ourselves and get well, enjoying life as much as our illness allows. He said that his brother is responsible for his family and must come to terms with the reality of his situation.

Hope that gives you all some perspective. Our job is to heal ourselves and to support our partners...anything else must be carefully apportioned!

Find some wonderful, loving and caring friends and cherish them! Life is too short to waste time on anything else!

--------------------
DOCTOR: "I don't think you are sick."
PATIENT: "We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't think you are a doctor."

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Robin123
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So, being able to heal from trauma would be a life-saving experience, wouldn't it? I think abusers are stuck in having been traumatized, and then pass it on since that's what they know.

Maybe we can ask some more questions, as in how do people heal from trauma?

First, to recognize that something is hurtful and is not right, in terms of behavior and the thinking that precedes it.

Second, to understand what is healthy thinking and behavior and that everyone is worthy of that.

Our local Lyme support group had a presentation on this topic last week.

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Cass A
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Getting away from these toxic people is very good advice!! Not being in communication with them at all, if possible, is the best.

This type of move can truly help your own recovery, whatever medical/alternative methods you're using.

As Robin just pointed out, these abusers are often passing on the methods of control and "survival" that were used on them. To be the other "half" of the play they are acting out, YOU have to be the VICTIM! This means sick, incapable, in pain, etc.

Walking out of the "theater" can be a life-saving move--truly!

Best,

Cass A

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daystar1952
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I don't want to take away the emphasis from all this good advice but I do think its important to mention that a substantial segment of the population is filled with people like this. They tend to cluster in positions where they can feel important, garner attention and have power over others...like the medical system, politics,psychiatrists, some religious leaders...etc.

When it comes to conspiracies...in the lyme world and throughout society, many people often disbelieve the goals and plots of some of these people because they cannot fathom their mindset. Something in their brains is not working right so they lack empathy, compassion, love and they often do not realize the consequences of their actions...in that in the long run they don't even realize that their negative actions will often end up harming themselves.

I think it's very important to realize this, if we want to get anywhere in the lyme community...or if we want to keep our freedoms we need to know why and how the "normal" people are being taken advantage of by those without compassion and conscience.

It's also important to realize that these people can be very charming and also can be excellent actors and actresses. It's like we need a whole new way of electing individuals for government or any position of power. Good, kind, compassionate people often do not seek these kinds of powerful positions because that kind of position often entails clawing and scratching to get to the top...and compromising one's values.

On the one hand I feel sorry for these people because their inner life must be barren. They seek thrills from adrenaline rushes and many times hurting others is how they acquire this adrenaline fix.

In my own experience I am trying to balance not being taken advantage of but yet not hating this person or becoming mean or insensitive myself.I think the main focus maybe should be on learning to spot this type of person and as an individual and a society we need to learn how spot them,know their tactics and keep them out of controlling positions. In our personal lives we need to know how to handle them....with general kindness but with firmness and boundaries.Show them that their tacics no longer work.

We need a sense of being ok ourselves so we don't get sucked into the idea they try to put on us that we are deficient in some way. We can't let them make us feel guilty about standing up to them and creating boundaries.

I'm just thinking outloud trying to think of solutions because I really feel that much of the world's problems are due to this malfunction of personality. I also think that going back...or trying to go back to traditional diets will help to bring back society's health AND sanity.If you want to know more about how to improve our health and the health of society visit the nonprofit Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation
www.ppnf.org

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daystar1952
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I don't want to take away the emphasis from all this good advice but I do think its important to mention that a substantial segment of the population is filled with people like this. They tend to cluster in positions where they can feel important, garner attention and have power over others...like the medical system, politics,psychiatrists, some religious leaders...etc.

When it comes to conspiracies...in the lyme world and throughout society, many people often disbelieve the goals and plots of some of these people because they cannot fathom their mindset. Something in their brains is not working right so they lack empathy, compassion, love and they often do not realize the consequences of their actions...in that in the long run they don't even realize that their negative actions will often end up harming themselves.

I think it's very important to realize this, if we want to get anywhere in the lyme community...or if we want to keep our freedoms we need to know why and how the "normal" people are being taken advantage of by those without compassion and conscience.

It's also important to realize that these people can be very charming and also can be excellent actors and actresses. It's like we need a whole new way of electing individuals for government or any position of power. Good, kind, compassionate people often do not seek these kinds of powerful positions because that kind of position often entails clawing and scratching to get to the top...and compromising one's values.

On the one hand I feel sorry for these people because their inner life must be barren. They seek thrills from adrenaline rushes and many times hurting others is how they acquire this adrenaline fix.

In my own experience I am trying to balance not being taken advantage of but yet not hating this person or becoming mean or insensitive myself.I think the main focus maybe should be on learning to spot this type of person and as an individual and a society we need to learn how spot them,know their tactics and keep them out of controlling positions. In our personal lives we need to know how to handle them....with general kindness but with firmness and boundaries.Show them that their tacics no longer work.

We need a sense of being ok ourselves so we don't get sucked into the idea they try to put on us that we are deficient in some way. We can't let them make us feel guilty about standing up to them and creating boundaries.

I'm just thinking outloud trying to think of solutions because I really feel that much of the world's problems are due to this malfunction of personality. I also think that going back...or trying to go back to traditional diets will help to bring back society's health AND sanity.If you want to know more about how to improve our health and the health of society visit the nonprofit Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation
www.ppnf.org

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daystar1952
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sorry about the double.....now triple post. I clicked twice because it seemed to be taking too long to work :>)
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TerryK
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daystar - well said.
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Catgirl
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Wow, CherylSue, I can relate. I met someone just once in my life like this. I could tell something was seriously off about him (really bothered me). He appeared to be jealous of either my boyfriend's possessions or his lifestyle (don't know why). The guy was beyond arrogant, yet silently scary too.

I tried to warn my friend that there was something off about him (they were dating), but she just said that he had been drinking and that she didn't see anything wrong with him.

I kept telling my boyfriend, at the time, that there was something wrong with this guy, but he just said the guy (and his behavior) didn't bother him, and not to let it/him bother me.

A few years later, the guy murdered his neighbor.

You have to follow your instincts with these people. Something inside of me told me that the guy had something seriously wrong with him. I am so glad that he & my friend and broke up.

Your advice is spot on CherylSue.

As far as energy vampires, Robbie, I agree. I either try to change the subject when talking to them (but mostly listening--family members) or I cut them off or just agree with them. Agreeing with them seems to work best.

Their arrogance gives them a false sense of comfort (feel important), which is probably temporary though, because they just keep doing it. These people have major issues of their own to work out.

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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Nicole_Denise
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Gosh, we've got one in our family, but it didn't come out because of the Lyme thing (I knew she was crazy and stayed away).

It's my aunt, and it has come out because my grandparents are getting old and having trouble managing in their home.

My Mom is trying to find some solution, and do what is right for them (they should be in long-term care, as per doctors recommendations)

My Aunt, on the other hand, is stealing from them, and playing everyone in the family against each other.

It got to the point where she stole my Mom's purse and hid it on her to try to make my Mom feel crazy and off balance.,,but she screwed up and hid it in a car that my Mom did not have keys for.

Then she got a someone to write a "get-well soon" card to my grandmother, that really was just a card about how awesome my Aunt is, and what a wonderful person she was. More like a reference letter than anything.

This is the same person who mocked me and obviously (even to my parents) hated me as a child, because I was focused on school, and not fasion etc.

Anyway, the only thing you can do is put as much distance between these people and yourself as you can.

My Mom did what she could, and then left for Mexico. I just avoid my Aunt

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lpkayak
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daystar- alot of what you said i could really relate to

as far as tx for them...i read the conditon is usually in place by the time the person is 30

and i read they rarely get tx -which would be therapy-cuz they "know" they are right and dont need help

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Haley
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Well said daystar.

I just saw my X- NPD. Oh my gosh... I am so glad that I am no longer with this person.

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farraday
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My husband reminds me that as terrible as it is to put up with someone like this, it is even worse BEING someone with these issues. We can leave, but they are stuck with themselves.

I agree with you, Daystar. Compassion is called for. I was most fortunate to be raised by loving and devoted parents....I am most thankful for them. But the key in dealing with negative people seems to be to set limits and to enforce them consistently and firmly.

There are many factions in society that work overtime to control others....through fear, intimidation, playing on others' weaknesses, manipulation and so on. They attempt to convince others that their way is the only way and more often than not they are uninformed and without validation. They lie, misrepresent themselves and use extreme measures to remain in control. Why they feel the need to do it is a whole other subject.

We are easy targets because we are ill, confused and unable to defend ourselves as we were in our former lives. But knowledge is power and most of us work hard to attain it, to validate our positions. Manipulators want to control, not to know or to contribute.

I am reminded of an executive of a well known R&D company. When we noticed a thick volume of Stanford alumni on his desk we asked why he kept it there. He said that he always checked to see if resume information was correct when applicants claimed to have Stanford degrees. We asked him if he ever found any culprits. "Yes" he replied. "How many?" we asked. "About half" he said, shaking his head. We were appalled!

I use writing as my tool. I record events, describe people who have tried to control me (without success). I write to help others to cope, to give hints for dealing with negatives, to encourage people to be brave and to stand up for themselves. I write stories about these issues and give examples of ways to handle them.

This is cathartic for me. I am firm about the fact that I do NOT use the phone, except for logistics and mostly with only my family. I entertain visitors but only for short times. I support friends and family in need to the best of my ability. But my priorities are clear and I waste no time (and mostly no thought...I am working on that) on negative people and negative situations.

My goal this year is to navigate the confusing (for me) technology that will lead to web pages so that I have a forum for my writing. I hope to turn negative events and people into positive stories and suggestions for coping and improving our quality of life.

What can you do to turn things around? Let's hear your suggestions!!!

--------------------
DOCTOR: "I don't think you are sick."
PATIENT: "We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't think you are a doctor."

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lymeinhell
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Wow, I'm just seeing this post, and it hits home in so many ways. I have a relative that fits this to a bill.

Jealous of everyone and everything, feels the world owes him everything, and outrageous behavior when some 'indignity' comes his way (such as someone else going on vacation or has the nerve to buy a car, be happy, breathe or(fill in the blank).

It's like he's in a ****ing contest with the world.

But as you have heard before, you need to cut this cancer out of your life. It does nothing but drain you and you become a victim of their sickness. We did 5 years ago (which made us pariahs in the family), but we were tired of sticking our heads in the sand and slapping on a happy face at family events.

--------------------
Julie
_ _ ___ _ _
lymeinhell

Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed.

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Rivendell
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Daystar1952

I agree that sociopaths tend to run the government and the corporations. We, as a citizen, need to be aware of the manipulation that takes place from these people and in our society.

Even in television commercials sometimes you can see the idea being promoted that we should blame people who are down, rather than have compassion.

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sparkle7
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I heard somewhere that about 10% of all people on the planet are psychopathic. There are alot of different disgnosis' around of various dysfunctional psychologies - boarderline personalities, sociopaths, psychopaths, schizoid, disassociative identity disorder, depression, narcissists... It's probably infinite.

I guess we need more awareness about these things. Most mental illness is pretty much hidden - like our own suffering with Lyme & various conditions. I can't imagine what kind of personality would want to take responsibility for wars or genocides, torture, allowing people to starve or be bombed with chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, allowing people to go without medical care... Seems that one in power has to be conditioned to be in that position.

I don't know what the solution is to a dysfunctional world. Most people I know or their families have their own particular damage to work through. It's not an easy question. If we are dealing with our own stress & illness, it's pretty hard to try to help or tolerate others who have deep problems.

I think some of this is starting to come out into the open - on a planetary scale... which is needed. I've seen a number of articles about various mental illnesses, some relating to people who hold power & psychopathy. It's definitely a human issue that needs to be addressed to find some answers or some kind of way to strive for healing. I don't think we live in a very sane world, though.

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lpkayak
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in my case i know it is true that he has had a hard life...and many of his choices made it harder

not that he is to blame or the neglectful parents are to blame

for whatever reason he is on his path and i am on mine

i make bad choices too...but i try really hard to learn from them and change. and i have been rewarded for that so it becomes easier to do as time goes on

i dont think he thinks he has a chance to react differently to get something better-but its his life...his choice how he reacts

its pretty clear to me after reading this thread that this is my next lesson to learn: to separate from him. to do it with empathy and love...but to do it.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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sparkle7
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On a personal level, it's hard. We form attachments to people or they may be someone in our family. I guess we just have to try to guage how much involvement we can tolerate.

Alot of people don't "wear a dysfunctional kind of personality on their sleeve" so to speak. It may take time before you realize you are dealing with someone who has problems. By then, it's hard to pull back.

You have to try to do the best you can for youself & for the people involved. It's not easy. I can read into it that you really care about this person, lpkayak. Good luck.

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daystar1952
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It seems that throughout history there have always been the tyrants, the dictators.....those who want power and control. Often...from what I understand...there is an actual defect in the brain...a dark spot in the frontal lobe that doesn't light up the way it does in "normal" people(in psychopaths anyway).There may be several causes for this. Two main ones which stand out to me are abuse and diet....possibly genetics (but what determines genetics?)

I write book reviews for The Price Pottenger Nutrition Foundation....a nonprofit that has saved and archived all of the phenomonal research of Dr. Weston A Price and other nutritional icons. www.ppnf.org Many of the books I have been reading show research about how our declining diets of processed foods have caused much suffering for individuals and for society as a whole.

I find it fascinating....and very hopeful....to read about the comparisons Dr. Price ....and others....made between the physical AND mental health of those who ate the newly emerging processed foods and those who ate their natural indigenous diets.

The outlying communities who ate the unprocessed foods did not experience TB, cavities of the teeth, poor bone and jaw structure.What fascinated me the most however,was the fact that those on the natural diets were not only healthy but they were happy and mentally sound. There was no need for doctors but even more striking to me was that there was no crime and as a result there were no jails.

Dr. Price took thousands of photos comparing the these two segments of society in many different areas of the world.....back in the 30s when there were still some remote societies to study. It was obvious to him that the size and shape of the skull, dental arch, sinuses...etc.. was reflected in the health, mental soundness and often the criminality of a person.

Perhaps the saying..... "don't trust him because his eyes are two close together" has some factual basis to it.In general I try not to judge a book by it's cover...because there are always exceptions....however, there is nothing wrong with.....and in fact, I think its wise to be able to recognize the personality traits of these people and perhaps even developing an intuitive sense of the physical appearance of those who may have these issues.

For example, ....don't laugh at me......but I have been watching Judge Judy lately and find it interesting to observe the physical appearance of many of those on the show who are shifty characters, unmotivated people, those who lack total common sense...etc.

I have noticed that very often their facial structure is very narrow. This narrowness of the skull is not normal development and shows that the person did not recieve the proper nutrients when in the womb. When the size and shape of the skull and the jaw are underdeveloped, one could imagine that there was not enough room for the brain to develope properly.

There is a very important example in the book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration (the research of Dr. Price) concerning an adolescent with Downs Syndrome. The boy was in early puberty and had all the physical and mental development qualities of someone with Downs Syndrome. Dr. Price felt that those with Down's syndrome are usually born to a woman who is older and has exhausted her nutritional reproductive stores of vitamins and minerals.

Dr. Price felt that part of the underformed jaw was compressing the pituitary gland...which affects growth and development. He fitted an appliance into this boy's mouth and the boy began to develope normally both physically and mentally. The book shows the amazing photos which prove this. Unfortunately the appliance fell out at some point and the boy reverted to his former condition.

So.....I'm not sure if at this point things are too far gone...or if we still have a chance at turning society around. This may sound silly and simplistic to some but I think that as a start books like Nutrition and Physical Degeneration and "Deep Nutrition" should be required reading for everyone.

We hear lots of talk by corporations and government that we need...for example...to make vaccines mandatory "for the good of the whole".Well...that's assuming that vaccines were harmless and that corporations and government really had our best interests at heart.If they really cared, they would make these two books...for starters...required reading in medical schools.

We would be taught how to increase our immunity naturally....and not force vaccines on people which have the potential to actually depress some people's immune systems and make others hyperactive...as in autoimmune disease and allergy.

I think that a book needs to be written on this subject...a book which relates to diet and the criminal mind

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Dogsandcats
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You can click the pencil and paper and it will take you to where you can edit or delete your post.

Double clicking is easy to do!

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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daystar1952
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I found it...thanks. It's good to know how to delete! :>)
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mom2kids
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I think there are people that have Narcissistic Tendancies, we all know them. They are cocky, competative, know it all, done it all, have it alls. These are not people with true Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Then there are people with true NPD and unless you are part of their family or inner circle, you may not realize that they have this. They are very good at trying to appear like normal, caring, sensitive people.

If you are on the inside, they are needy, jealous, cold people that make you feel inferior and that nothing you ever do is right or good enough. You are lucky that they allow you to be part of their world and they really have no empathy or feelings.

Unless you are the "Golden One/Child", then you are placed to their right side and treated like royalty, but never placed above the person with NPD.

To the casual observer, the NPD appears to be a victim. Their family treats them horribly, their kids direspect them, nobody cares about them and after everything they do for them. It makes them "look good" to outsiders (in their own eyes)to seem to give so much, but get nothing in return.

i.e. My mom will complain of not feeling good, I offer to go over to visit or take her to the doctor, but she will say "no". Then she will drive herself to the E.R. and tell everybody she was having chest pains, but that I was too busy to bother taking her or that I didn't even offer.

In her friends' eyes (and she has very few, only those she can manipulate, but that's a whole other story) I am a horiible daughter/person, I am ungrateful, disrespectful and treat her like crap.

I have only told a few people in my life about her disorder because they only see the "good" side of her. When I have told people they act like I am crazy and I have to convince them that I am not lying about her. NPDs are award winning actors...

They also can never (never say never, but...)be treated because they do not EVER think that they are wrong or have anything (mentally) wrong, it's the rest of the world that needs help. Plus, how can anybody help them when they know more than the rest of the world?

Farraday, I forget the term used, but your son may not see his wife the way the world does. Trying to get him to admit she has a problem would be like trying to "force" an addict to be rehabilitated. He might see the problem, but admitting it is another thing.

It has taken my Dad over 5 decades to actually say outloud that my Mom has a problem.

I am not a doctor and the above statements pertain to my own situation. I know there are so many more aspects to this disorder, including my Mom's, but I'd have to write a book to explain all of them.

May everybody find some peace in their lives, even those that bring chaos to ours...

--------------------
Down on her knees, she wept on the floor.
This hopeless life, she wanted no more.
Dead in the mind and cold to the bone,
She opened her eyes and saw she was alone. ~Seether

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sparkle7
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I don't know, Daystar... (respectfully) Wealthy people (who may be psychopaths) who are in control of the planet eat quite well. It's not cheap to buy all the gourmet & organic foods.

Another thing - people on "reality" shows are actors. It's all scripted... So, you can't really go by a show on TV.

I can see that Weston Price has some interesting documentation but it's a complex issue.

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Dogsandcats
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Most people don't believe when you tell them about the person. They seem so engaging, how could they ever be anything else?

Golden children? Yes...it is fabulous to be one-until it ends.

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

Billy Graham

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lpkayak
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daystar-i agree with a lot of what you said

i learned long ago to buy a horse whose eyes were far apart -they are smarter and have less quirks

i tottally agree about whole foods being better and processed foods being poison

and vaccines. grrrr. whole other topic really.

mom-the statement "make you feel inferior" hits it on the head for me. i just kept telling ppl he was different and i didnt understand him and never knew how he would react...but two of his ex bosses ended up talking to me and both gave examples of his behavior that made them feel like they didnt know anything...and thats how he made me feel and when i realized i wasnt the only one...i knew it wasnt me. 3 of us from completely different times-places etc and his behavior did the same thing to each of us.

the other behavior that is there is lack of empathy...

so that was my epiphany...and from there i started this thread and i am so glad!!! who would know so many of us are dealing with this.

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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CherylSue
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Yeah, Catgirl, I could write a book on the subject. You just get this creepy feeling that all is not right. It took me two weeks to figure that something was very wrong with her, not me. I always try to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but I trusted my gut on this one, and I'm glad I did.

The best way to handle a narcissist is to smile and act like you agree with them. Then avoid them whenever possible. Don't get involved. They'll manipulate you if you get too close.

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daystar1952
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I know Sparkle....It's not cut and dry and I still have alot of questions. Some people feel that the elite families who appear to have psychopathic qualities...are of a satanic bloodline and that this is why they work so hard to marry within the family. I don't go along with the satanic part but there may be something that is passed down that they know about and are even encouraging.

I have read that this personality type wants others to be unhappy and empty as they are. They are supposedly jealous of anyone who is happy. But then others say that they look down on anyone who has normal emotions and thinks they are foolish....so who really knows. But....I do think we need much more study as to what creates a psychpath/narcissist and what to do about them.

The following example of how they try to perpetuate themselves is something I read so I don't know how true it is. Supposedly the "elite" (I call them that lightly) have fox hunts for more than one purpose. This is what I've heard. They chase the fox and terrorize it. This creates a super adrenaline rush in the fox.

When they kill it, I've heard that they immediately take some blood from this fox and spread some of it on the skin of the children for the supposed purpose of creating this addicitve adrenaline feeling in the children.Supposedly this personality type is addicted to adrenaline rushes because they don't have normal feelings. Often the actions they commit on others are for the purpose of acquiring these adrenaline rushes.

So...who knows in what other ways that these people may try to perpetuate their pathological qualities in their children.

I guess the idea I'm trying to put out there for Sparkle and others....is that maybe the perpetuation of their "kind" is intentional (more with the elite)and that maybe they even know of dietary ways to promote or perpetuate their kind.

They want power and control and will often do anything to get it. However, if we learn their tactics and traits, they then have no cover to work under.What do you guys think? Is that too crazy?

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jackie51
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I just watched an old CSI NY last night that had the fox hunt and they put the blood on a child. Chilling.

This thread has been interesting. I remember once my sister saying our mother was a narcissist. I really didn't think it meant more than she thinks highly of herself.

But, looking back, I can remember so many instances. She constantly interrupts when people are talking (OMG, I do this too and I hate it). If you interrupt her, she is furious. She really has no interest in anyones life but her own. I know I spent many years looking for a mother figure in my life but I just thought it was because my mother didn't like children and was an alcoholic.

The day I told her I had got married, she couldn't wait to tell me she got new furniture. It was like, "oh that's nice, I got ..."

When my sister was near her death bed 20 years ago (she is still alive, thank God), my mom said how hard it would be on her if she died. I think we were all shocked since my sister had many kids at the time and a newborn.

The stories...and yes, I have felt guilty at times that I didn't love her like other's love their mom. I don't think people who have a "normal" relationship with their parents can understand at first. I do love her. Some days it's because I'm supposed to, some days because I really do.

Growing up is hard to do...

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daystar1952
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Jackie....I interrupt also and I have noticed that this is a trait of people with Lyme and or CFS/Fibro. I can often predict who has these chronic illnesses by observing whether they talk fast, interrupt and drift into other subjects(can't stay focused on train of thought).

Now that you bring this up tho...I wonder if we have these traits just due to Lyme brain or if it is at least partially due to dealing with the narcissists in our lives?

That is fascinating that you saw them actually place blood on the child at a fox hunt. I want to look into that more. I thought perhaps it was a rumor.

Even though it's not fun relaizing that a parent or other person close to you has these traits....on the other hand it is fascinating and empowering to learn that its not you that has the deficiencies. I look back and say...."Oh my God.....that's what she was doing when she would do this or say that. It is just so revealing.

I feel the same as you Jackie....I just always thought my mother had odd quirks and said stupid or hurtful things because she didn't know any better. Now I can see that she certainly did know what she was saying and doing.

Despite this tho....we must not stoop to their level. In a way, that's what they want

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jackie51
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When I read this thread Thursday morning, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

I do think lyme plays a big part in our behavior and when I am doing most well, I have more patience and I truly care more about others. When I feel sub-par, then all my energy is just getting me through the day.

My mother has actually felt better in the last 5 years as she has been taking plaquenil due to RA. I have noticed that she actually listens to me talk about the chronic lyme. But, I still am careful. Sometimes she listens only to subject me to criticism.

I don't think my mom knows what she is doing. I think for the most part she is miserable. All these beautiful grandchildren, great grandchildren, and it barely registers on her radar. Though, she does brag about us. Go figure.

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daystar1952
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Supposedly they have no real feelings and have become very adept at acting. Hey....maybe that's why most people in the acting industry are so screwed up!

I always knew my mother was mstly about appearances but I never knew the depth of this or why. Now that she is 92, most appearances are fading fast and her behavior is getting so much worse that it has finally given her away. They say there is nothing worse than an aging narcissist and that you are much better off if you stay completely away from them.

However, if you are an only child and are the only one really left to help...then I feel we have to do what is right.In my case I feel I should be as kind as I can be and helpful.....BUT that does not mean that I* should let her walk all over me and use me. I am learning to set boundaries and not respond to all the drama and chaos that she creates over nothing. It's amazing

Supposedly they do this for attention. Yes....be very careful what you divulge to your mother. That is a very telling trait.....they can be very nosey and interested but it is usually to use against you...by criticizing or in some other ways that a normal person wouldn't even tie in to the info shared. They think totally differently from us which is why it's so hard to understand them and to realize what they are really up to.

They have made very careful study of "normal" people because they had to learn how to ACT normal.Because they know us so well.....what they think are our weaknesses...they know how to hurt and manipulate us.

So....consequently...it is also becoming necessary for the free survival of the "normal" people....to learn all they can about what makes these people tick

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lpkayak
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wow-you guys are creeping me out. i foxhunted a lot when i was a kid and there was never any blood on kids...actually i dont think we ever caught a fox

but i interrupt too since lyme and my head traumas and i know it is cuz if i have something to add to a conversation i need to say it right then or i will forget it...if i can write a note to myself...then i dont have to interupt

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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