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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » given antibiotics today is it wise to take anything without seeing llmd first

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Author Topic: given antibiotics today is it wise to take anything without seeing llmd first
Maya12
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I was in to see my doctor today and he put me on clarithromiacin but haven't gotten the lyme diagnosis.

He put me onm this for a sinus infection but I am wondering if taking antibiotics now could make lyme bacteria resistant to treatment later.

Is it a good idea to take this or should I hold off until I get the lyme diagnosis and get treatment from an llmd

I don't want to make the bacteria more resistant to antibiotics by just taking them now and making them more resistant to proper treatment later

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T.Maria
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Hmmmmmm..I'm not sure. How long is your script for?
How bad is your sinus infection? Do you think your doc would repeat your script?

At the beginning of January I went on cipro and metron for a bowel bug and that was when my symptoms got really bad - I thought I was reacting to the meds. I did not really know or think about Lyme at that point...so I didn't know what was going on.

I do understand the feeling of wanting antibiotics.

I am sure you will get some insight from others [Smile]

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Keebler
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When is your LLMD first appt scheduled?

You could call their office and ask what the doctor prefers for testing, a certain period free of abx or not, but they would not be able to advise you without seeing you in person.

If your sinus infection is bad, it may be necessary to attend to that right away.

But - and I wish all doctors would do this - I would first be sure to be on good doses of

PROBIOTICS

and

OLIVE LEAF EXTRACT or PAU d'ARCO to help prevent candida (systemic yeast infection from antibiotic use). ALLICIN could work, too.

LIVER SUPPORT is essential before Rx, IMO, to help protect the liver from the strong Rx and help the liver be able to work better. Milk Thistle is the most common.

Herbs can stay with herbs but, generally, keep separate:

Rx

Herbs

Probiotics
-

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lymeinhell
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Not to mention your 'sinus infection' could be fungal, not bacterial, in which case the antibiotics would make the problem worse. Did they do a culture to be sure it was bacterial?

I spent 4 mos under the care of an ENT and Allergist for 'chronic sinusitis' before I finally was diagnosed. Not once did they do a culture, and instead I spent 4 mos on Levaquin. My LLMD put me on Diflucan for a couple weeks and my 'chronic sinusitis' disappeared.

http://www.endfatigue.com/health_articles_r-s/Sinusitis-actually_a_yeast_infection.html

--------------------
Julie
_ _ ___ _ _
lymeinhell

Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed.

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T.Maria
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Is sinusitis common with Lyme? I get it too...infact that is the only thing the MRI picked up...lol.

Is it usually fungal with lyme?

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Keebler
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-
Yes, sinisitis is very common for those with lyme. It may or may not be lyme, yeast or viral infections can also be a cause. What helps me:
-------------------

http://www.seagateproducts.com/olive-leaf-extract.html

SEAGATE Olive Leaf Extract

& See the menu at the left for their NASAL SPRAY

-----------------

http://www.seagateproducts.com/ss-images/townsend-letter-may.pdf

Townsend Letter, May 2001

Olive Leaf Extract - Five-page article
-

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Maya12
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Well I am also on nystatin so that should help with the yeast.

I just want to make sure that taking a course of antibiotics now won't screw up my chances of getting treatment to be effective later.

I have already done the cd 57 and igenix testing before taking abx

The course is only for 10 days I just want to make sure that by taking the abx now it won't make the lyme bacteria more resistant

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Lymetoo
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Go for it! You can't let a sinus infection get worse. It will NOT make the lyme more resistant.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Keebler
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As you've already had the tests, then, I would also go for it.

Do you have Liver support (Milk Thistle, Dandelion, etc.) on board?

The Rx could start what is called herxheimer reaction, a "flu" feeling from die off of infection.

Liver support can help prevent or lessen that. Magnesium and Fish oil, too. Good food, lots of water, rest, gentle movement like walking if you can.

Taken at different times.
-

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Maya12
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This antibiotic could start a die off I didn't realize that. Can it cause mood to worsen too and how soon would the herxing start?
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Maya12
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Would this antibiotic cause herxing from lyme? It is a form of biaxin called clarithromiacine is this ever used for lyme?

If it does target lyme would 10 days be long enough to notice a change for the better?

I do have some liver detox stuff think I will use some

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manybites
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If you are loaded in lyme you will herx.

I was asymptomatic with lyme and did not herxed on meds .But when lyme became active any medication for infections was making me sick and I did not know I had lyme .

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Maya12
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Ok well that is good to know that I may herx will this abx target lyme?

And if I am only on it for 10 days is this at all long enough to feel any better ?
I doubt this is enough time to feel any difference but was wondering what to expect from a 10 day course and depinding on how I react if I don't feel any better does this mean I don't have lyme?

Also can herxing cause worsening in mood at all?

I am also using magnesium citrate, liver detox and vit 5 and fish oil

How long does it normally take to feel better with lyme treatment?

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Maya12
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Vit d not vit 5
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T.Maria
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I think I was "herxing" when I took the cipro and metron for a "bowel bug" (before I knew of lyme) I thought I was reacting to the meds so I stopped after 7 days.

I actually called the pharmacist to ask if there had been recalls on the meds because I never react to medication.

You may notice it even on a 10 day round. Drink a lot of water and support with the supplements suggested.

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Maya12
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Thanks marie just wondering though can herxing cause anxiety and depression to worsen and after only 2 pills would I really feel it ?
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Lymetoo
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You might, but sooner or later you have to be treated.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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TF
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Clarithromycin IS used to treat lyme disease.

Just go to the Burrascano Guidelines:

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

Then use "find" to search for the word "clarithromycin" throughout the document. It is discussed as a lyme med on pages 14, 18, and 21.

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TF
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Nobody can tell you how long it takes to feel better once you are on lyme treatment. Some people feel a little better right away. Some people don't feel better for months.

A lot depends on how long you have had lyme. The longer you have had it, the longer your treaetment will take.

Also, the more you learn about lyme (read and STUDY the Burrascano Lyme Treatment Guidelines), the further back you will likely see lyme symptoms in your past.

So, the more you know about the disease, the more you will be able figure out how long ago you got it. That info is needed to answer a lot of your questions.

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manybites
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You will herx when you kill the infection. I herxed in any antibiotic when my lyme and coinfections became activated.

It did not matter what was the infection , I reacted with pain and sweats and was terrified.
It took 6 years since that day ( from a urine infection I stopped the antibiotics ) I found out I had lyme and coinfections.

If the load is very low you will not herx much.For example my daughter had a very low load and she herxed only on high dosages of antibiotics or herbs to treat bart.

The normal dosages she felt nothing.

I herxed for straight 2 years because my lyme and coinfections were activated from head to toe.

10 years ago I felt good after taking 2 weeks of antibiotics .But symptoms would come back in a few weeks.

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Maya12
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Thanks for all the info everyone .

How soon can I expect to feel a herx?

I have a fEeling I have had lyme for many years and feel I am loaded with it with so many neuro and emotional symptoms as well as physical

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Maya12
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I am also doing a parasite stool test thru doctors data wondering though what other tests would be good to do

I have heard the fry bug test is good

Also can herxing worsen emotiobal and neuro symptoms?

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TF
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From p. 18 of Burrascano:

"Clarithromycin- Adults: 250 to 500 mg q6h plus hydroxychloroquine, 200-400 mg/d,
or amantadine 100-200 mg/d. Cannot be used in pregnancy or in younger
children."

This is saying that the correct dosage in adults is 250 to 500 mg. every 6 hours. Plus you must have hydroxychloroquine or amantadine with it.

I doubt the non-lyme doc gave you anywhere near this dosage. So, the chances are your low dosage is not going to kill lyme. However, it may keep it from multiplying. This is called a bacteriostatic dose (keeps the amount of lyme the same, doesn't kill it).

So, if I am right that you are on a low dose and are not taking the other med required to be taken with it, you may just feel a little better while on this med. I really doubt you will herx on a low dose.

Everyone's herx is different. But, in general a herx is worsening of current symptoms and also addition of new lyme symptoms.

I really don't expect that you are going to herx on a low dose of this med taken for 10 days. This is not enough med for you to be concerned about a herx at all. Not at all.

This worry and anxiety about this is a lyme symptom. I hated that lyme anxiety! It was terrible.

If this medication makes you feel a very little bit better, that could indicate that you do have lyme. But, if it helps your sinus infection, then hopefully you will feel a lot better in the sinus area and perhaps with energy also.

Just realize that you are worrying excessively and try to tell yourself that the worry is a lyme symptom, not a sign that all that worry is actually appropriate for the circumstance.

I hope you will be getting to a good lyme doctor very soon. Then, I expect that with good treatment, your anxiety level will go down and you will have relief!

I had undiagnosed lyme disease for at least 10 years before a doctor thought to test me for lyme. Now, it is 7 years since I completed my lyme treatment and I am still lyme-free and enjoying my life.

Once you get good treatment, all of this will be behind you. Life will be good.

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Maya12
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My doc gave me 500mg clarithromycin 2 times per day.

Funny thing is I actually have less anxiety today but feel more out of it , my memory seems a bit worse and feel a bit more confused. Is there any way this could be a slight herx?

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Maya12
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I do have more energy and a slight bit more motivation too , could the abx actually be making me feel somewhat better?

My mind seems slightly calmer too I think

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Maya12
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Of course this is very slight
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Maya12
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Ok I know I ask so many questions but I am just trying to learn more and more about lyme.

Just wondering can lyme also make you feel overstimmulates like wired aand shakey but tired?

Feel like I have had like. 10 cups of coffee but feel fatigued this happens sometimes not all the time

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Keebler
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-
You wonder: " can lyme also make you feel overstimmulates like wired aand shakey but tired? "

Yep. Positively. Absolutely. It's one of lyme's hallmarks.

Did you get a good magnesium? Fish oil?

Avoiding coffee . . . and everything here?:
---------------

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=029690;p=0

Excitotoxins; MSG; Aspartame; & "Natural" Flavors
-

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Maya12
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Oh yes I got a magnesium citrate taking 4 a day and also got a good omega 3
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'Kete-tracker
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Maya,
A 10 day script will not help the Lyme at all in the long run.
You need to be on ATLEAST a 28 day course of the Biaxin (clarithro) to even knock it down a step.
But without other supporting drugs, like Plaquenil, the Lyme killing effect is reduced.

I'm SURPRISED he'd have you on just a 10-day stint of that "macrolide" antibiotic for a SINUS infection. That's at the low end for such an infection. Sinusitus is a "deep" infection that takes longer to respond to abx.
(BTW, are you allergic to pennicillun? Usually "amoxy" or Augmentin is Rx'ed as a "first line" abx, but your MD knows [you] best.)

As far as how quickly you'll "herx"?... it depends a lot on how high your Lyme load is & especially if you've been on any antibiotics before this, but after Lyme infection began.

General rule of thumb is 18-36 hours in my experience.

Your Lyme symptoms will worsen (temporarily) along with maybe a couple more symptoms thrown in, like nausea (U wanna puke but nothing's there) or agitation, & later exhaustion & even a type of weakness that mimics hypoglycemia (except swigging juice or milk doesn't help).

Sorry if this sounds scary, but it's the 1st step to recovering from this tough disease. We all went thru it.

And if you DO herx strongly, THAT is a pretty good indication you have some serious Lyme in you.
If your doc isn't willing to treat you for the Lyme w/ extended abx (atleast several months) you'll NEED to find a "Lyme literate" M.D.
(You can try the Seeking a Doctor secton of this site)

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Maya12
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So does this mean I probably won't feel anything from these abx? Since I don't have the other one added in

Also if I don't herx is this a sign that I don't have lyme or is this because I don't have the second drug added in and it wasn't long enough

I don't know if I have herxed yet I woke up to dry heaves and feeling really crappylike I can't breathe but I always wake up feeling this way

Also have had some wild mood swings since starting feel ok one minute to horrible the next

Is it possible that this short course wouldn't make me herx or even touch the lyme?

Feeling like I want to cry a lot

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Maya12
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Just wondering if I do herx can this make me feel more strange and out of it and confused from herxing?

Definatly have some more pronounced flu like symptoms today but also feel even more out of it and confused than usual and wondering if this is also a sign of a herx?

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Maya12
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Ok so I am feeling really and totally out of it all over the place my head is spinning with obsessive thoughts , feel very aggitated and irritable and very weak and dizzy I think moreso than usual are these all signs of a herx?

Also feel like I am going to burst into tears

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TF
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Maya, it is often very difficult to separate out the side effects of a medication from possible herxing. So, whenever you start a new medication, look at the package insert that comes with the med. Read "Side Effects" section.

Then, if you start having any symptoms once you start the med, get out the "Side Effects" section again and see if your symptoms match any side effects.

When I took Biaxin (clarithromycin), it gave me terrible anorexia (by day 4 I could not eat any food whatsoever, all day long; I couldn't force myself to eat even one spoonful of food), insomnia (by day 4, I could not sleep even one wink at night; this got progressively worse from day one to day 4), and also anxiety.

So, Biaxin can cause a lot of side effects all by itself. Some folks have no problem with it at all. My doc told me to stop it on day 4 since I couldn't eat or sleep. It took at least 4 more days for me to return to normal. That's how long it took for the Biaxin to get out of my system.

Now, I went on line and found some lists of side effects for you. Here is one:

"COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Biaxin:

Abnormal taste; diarrhea; headache; indigestion; nausea; stomach discomfort; vomiting.

Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Biaxin:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); bloody stools; confusion; decreased urination; depression; dizziness; emotional or mood changes; fast or irregular heartbeat; hallucinations; loss of taste or sense of smell; muscle weakness; nightmares; red, swollen, blistered, or peeling skin; seizures; severe diarrhea; severe stomach pain/cramps; symptoms of liver problems (eg, yellowing of the skin or eyes; dark urine; pale stools; severe or persistent nausea, loss of appetite, or stomach pain; unusual tiredness); tremor; trouble sleeping.

This is not a complete list of all side effects that may occur." http://www.drugs.com/sfx/biaxin-side-effects.html

And, from another site:

"Most common side-effects are gastrointestinal: diarrhea, nausea, extreme irritability, abdominal pain and vomiting, facial swelling. Less common side-effects include headaches, hallucinations (auditory and visual), dizziness/motion sickness, rashes, alteration in senses of smell and taste, including a metallic taste that lasts the entire time one takes it. Dry mouth, panic and / or anxiety attacks and nightmares have also been reported albeit less frequently."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarithromycin

So, since Biaxin can cause your aggitation and irritability and dizziness, it is up to you to decide if you can continue or if you want to call your doctor and ask for another med.

Why not see if you can put up with it a little longer and perhaps your body will adjust to the med and it will all calm down.

One person posted on here once that she got terrible nightmares from this med, but she persevered and they went away and the med did her a lot of good.

If you are herxing or even if you are not, I strongly suggest you drink lots and lots of water right now. My lyme doc had me squeeze fresh lemon slices into the water (or just eat lemons; 4 per day he told me) to lessen any herx.

Water flushes out the body and lemons are a natural cleanser, so they flush out the dead lyme germs (if there are any) and make the herx milder.

These are things you can try to get through this.

Every med has its side effects. If this becomes unbearable, you can call the doc's office and ask for something else. Hope you can continue until Monday when the office will be open again.

Hope it calms down. The water and lemons may do the trick for you. Hope so.

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Maya12
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The thing is I feel this way most of the time so it is really hard to know if it is side effects or herx or just a bad day. How the heck do you know

I think I will just try and stick with it

It may not even be topuching the lyme, I just dopnt really know what to expect

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Maya12
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To be honest I don't really know if this abx is even touching the lyme. Especially since it is a low dose and I am not taking any other abx with it.

I think I just feel the same as I always do which sucks

If I don't feel worse or better but just the same on the abx is this a sign that I don't have lyme or is it more that the abx isn't enough to cause a herx but also not enough to make me feel any better

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TF
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You can't draw any conclusions from this. When you are put on real lyme treatment, that will tell the tale.

If you go to a lousy lyme doc, you still won't herx, etc. so just remember that you have to get with a very, very good lyme doc to find out for sure if you have lyme. Of course, if you get a positive test, you can know that way also.

If you have never read my post "What Makes a Top Notch Lyme Doctor," I suggest you do. It is here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/115161?

EVERYBODY with lyme needs to know this. That's why they put my post at the top of Medical Questions under "Quick Links to Popular Topics."

The doc is the key to making progress with lyme and getting rid of it. You are not with a lyme doc yet, so you can't expect anything good to happen.

You are the only one who can evaluate whether or not your symptoms have gotten worse since starting this med. Nobody but you can answer that question. If they haven't gotten worse, then nothing is happening. Nothing.

At 10:49 a.m., you said you thought you were worse. Now, at 1:44 p.m. you are saying you think you feel the same.

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Maya12
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Well I do think I feel worse my husban feel I have def been worse today. Mental sx are def worse today but you are right this isn't even the right treatment for lyme so really I shouldn't make any conclusions from this
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'Kete-tracker
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Sorry, Maya- I've been offline, so I haven't been able to respond.
MY experience is that a true "herx" to an antibiotic (assuming it's 1 known to "lyse" or kill off Borellia Burgdorferi/ Lyme) will not occur in the first few hours.

It IS possible you'd get a "rush" 10 or 20 minutes in, IF you've NEVER been on Lyme-killing abx, as that could be the spirochetes getting zzzapped who (excuse me, folks) THAT were unlucky enough to be in your bloodstream when you 1st started the med.

They get knocked out once the serum concentrations (antibiotic blood levels) get above a bacteriocidal level, to use "med-speak".

But the true herx 'symptoms' don't kick in until the following day, roughly.

Now... If you're concerned about a specific symptom or 2 which you're having that's becoming difficult to cope with, you COULD try calling the Pharmacist where you bought the Biaxin...

& talk with HIM to see if he thinks it might be a bad reaction to the medicine itself, & go with that advice until you can call your regular Doctor's office on Monday morning.

Best I can advise. Hang in there! We'll be here. [spinning smile]

Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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