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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Marnie, about berberine...

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Author Topic: Marnie, about berberine...
doopideedoo
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I've read that if you take berberine you should also take a PGC-1a inducer such as PQQ with it. Do you know anything more about this?


read this:

http://examine.com/supplements/Berberine/

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Keebler
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ALPHA LIPIC ACID can do the trick instead of PQQ. [edited to add - see my last post below]


Thanks for that link. Never heard of those. For others who may want to read what those are before Marnie answers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPARGC1A

PGC-1a

Excerpt:

. . . Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator 1-alpha (PGC-1alpha) is a protein that in humans is encoded by the PPARGC1A gene.[1]. . .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrroloquinoline_quinone

PQQ - Pyrroloquinoline Quinone

------------------------

Berberine-containing herbs have been safely used for thousands of years. Can't elaborate on that now in this context. Although, herbs containing it are not the exact thing as that just that single part of it removed - or synthetically manufactured (?) depending upon source.

You might want to ask a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) about this, too.

Always more to learn.
-

[ 07-21-2012, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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I tried to find the author at that examine.com site but could not so was unable to see their background and education. They may very well have an important point but would want to see more than just this one source to learn more.

The footnote for that point cites this single study on mice:

35. Wang H, et al.

Atrogin-1 affects muscle protein synthesis and degradation when energy metabolism is impaired by the antidiabetes drug berberine. Diabetes. (2010)

that abstract at PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20522589

----------------------------------

Again, the whole herb or even herbal extract might be very different than just Berberine alone.

To find a doctor with 4+ years of medical college education in the field of herbal medicine:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor); etc.

---------------

None of this is to encroach upon Marnie's thread here, but just to offer some more detail until she comes along.
-

[ 07-21-2012, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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ALA would be a whole lot easier to include than Pyrolloquinoline Quinone.

Excerpt from your article:

"PCG-1a inducers like Pyrolloquinoline Quinone OR

Alpha-Lipoic Acid to negate inhibition of protein synthesis." (end quote)

ALA is often suggested for those with lyme and for those with blood sugar issues. Here's just one link about that:

http://www.raysahelian.com/lipoic.html

Alpha Lipoic Acid - Ray Sahelian's site

(note the two types)

-----------------
RE: Protein

http://icmr.nic.in/ijmr/2006/august/0804.pdf

THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTIONS

Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148

- by Anura V. Kurpad

Fifteen pages of text.

Excerpt from abstract on page one:

. . . In general, the amount of extra protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . .
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doopideedoo
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"None of this is to encroach upon Marnie's thread here, but just to offer some more detail until she comes along."

No, not at all! I didn't mean to insinuate that only she could post.

You posted lots of good stuff! And for that, I thank you.

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Razzle
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Is ALA contra-indicated in those with amalgam fillings (and no, I cannot remove them; I'm allergic to the alternative filling materials).

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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Lymeorsomething
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I just put myself on Berberine. I hope it does something...

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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Keebler
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Razzle,

Don't know why ALA would be contra-indicated for those with amalgam fillings. I would think it would be of help.

But, that is not my area of expertise (actually, I have no such area). So, if you have some experts (more than one) who suggests otherwise, take their words into account.

Do you recall where you read or heard that?

Now, it may be that ALA is best used with binders, etc. if it is a mobilizer. But many folks have mercury in their bodies, not just those with amalgam fillings.

From a quick cross search:

http://www.raysahelian.com/mercury.html

2/3 of the way down, Dr. Sahelian answers that question. (though the spacing here is so very hard on the eyes.

Poster question re: alpha lipoic acid mercury

Dr. S Answer:

We seriously doubt that the alpha lipoic acid and B12 side effects you report are due to mercury poisoning.

Most people have similar alpha lipoic acid side effects when they take high dosages and we don't think it is related to mercury poisoning. . . .
-

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Razzle
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Thanks for your reply, Keebler.

I was asking because I often see ALA mentioned as one thing to use during mercury detox.

Since many other things used during mercury detox are not safe to use when one has amalgam fillings still in the mouth, I wondered if the same would be true of ALA.

Also, I took ALA for a while before I knew I had Lyme, and was curious if it could have caused any problems from the amalgam fillings...

Thanks,

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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riverspirit
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For those who are interested, Stephen Buhner's updated edition of "Herbal Antibiotics" is now out. It's a whole new book!

And he has a very informative section on berberine-containing herbs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1603429875/ref=oh_details_o04_s01_i00

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Marnie
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PGC-1alpha interacts with PPARy.

PGC-1α leads to calcineurin activation.

Akt and calcineurin are both ***activators of***

NF kappa B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPARGC1A

Newbies:

NF-κB plays a key role in regulating the immune response to infection (kappa light chains are critical components of immunoglobulins).

Incorrect regulation of NF-κB has been linked to cancer, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, septic shock, viral infection, and improper immune development. NF-κB has also been implicated in processes of synaptic plasticity and memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NF-%CE%BAB

(Talk about "light chains"...yea, in response to Bb's OspB, we needed IgG1 KAPPA. But our antibody to Bb's OspB was damaged...so the "original" from which we make copies (!) -> ongoing wrong response...antibody wise.)

"Furthermore, berberine ***attenuated*** high glucose-induced generation of reactive oxygen species, cellular apoptosis, ***nuclear factor-kB activation***, and expression of
adhesion molecules, thus suppressing monocyte attachment to endothelial cells."

http://cardiovascres.oxfordjournals.org/content/82/3/484.full.pdf

What we have is something (berberine) that can impact ***infected macrophages*** to destroy a pathogen and is capable of knocking off cancer cells too. Amazing.

Macrophages - read "background":

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018467

Re: PPARy...(the little y stands for gamma)

"Berberine's effects in PPARy *conflict* however, the reason is not clear."

http://examine.com/supplements/Berberine/


These studies suggest that BBR works on multiple molecular targets as an

***inhibitor of PPARgamma and alpha, ***

and is a potential weight reducing, hypolipidemic, and hypoglycemic drug.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16890192

Yet Wikipedia says berberine ***activates PPARy*** here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxisome_proliferator-activated_receptor

WHICH berberine? Are they talking about berberine chloride or berberine sulfate?

Do they have different effects? One activates PPARy and the other inhibits?

The only thing I see to PERHAPS add to Berberine chloride (to fight Bb ONLY...not babesia) MAYBE a MDR inhibitor.

Some pathogens export drugs/chemicals they don't want. MDR= multi drug resistant.

Thus adding an inhibitor helps prevent the pathogen from "spitting out" the beneficial chemical out.

Berberine chloride works by interferring with DNA winding and unwinding.

Berberine chloride inhibits ...well...

Berberine also inhibits DNA topoisomerase I and II in biochemical system (14,15), and in fact, several classes of compounds that inhibit eukaryotic topoisomerase I or II have antitumor activity (16).

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/10/2018.full

Many of our antibiotics inhibit one topisomerase or the other! - the PATHOGEN'S DNA.

Berberine inhibits both!!!

Several cancer drugs (including those currently being made) also focus on the topoisomerases. - OUR DNA (which is damaged).

I wish all the websites that discuss berberine would be specific...chloride or sulfate?!

Frontline blocks chloride channels in the tick and thus destroys Bb in the tick.

Tamoxifen blocks chloride channels in breast cancer cells (but adding EPA - omega 3 helps a LOT somehow effecting cancer cells' normal resistance to cell death).

Logically...if Bb is triggering the opening of the chloride channels (and sodium channels), why not make use of that fact and send in berberine chloride?

Would the sulfate form be less likely to go into the effected cells?

Any biochemists reading? Does berberine chloride and berberine sulfate have different effects on cells? All cells or just certain ones?

P.S. I think the KIND of Mg given IV after "photon therapy" was Mg CHLORIDE.

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Marnie
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1. PGC-1alpha interacts with PPARy. = PPAR gamma.


2. These studies suggest that BBR (berberine) works on multiple molecular targets as an

***inhibitor of PPARgamma and alpha, ***

and is a potential weight reducing, hypolipidemic, and hypoglycemic drug.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16890192

3. "PCG-1a ***inducers*** like Pyrolloquinoline Quinone OR

Alpha-Lipoic Acid to

negate inhibition of

protein synthesis."

Hello...protein synthesis. Anabolic.

Bb is happy. "He" wants to build "his" lipoprotein cell walls.

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