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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Immune system not recognizing lyme...treatment hints?

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Author Topic: Immune system not recognizing lyme...treatment hints?
mbdq
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Soooo...my LLMD made a good point at my last appointment. After treating for 2.5+ years, I am positive on the new borrelia culture test, but I am negative on all Igenex accept for band 41.

2 years ago, I was very highly positive on Igenex. Therefore, he thinks this is NOT a good sign as I have an active infection but my immune system is not recognizing it.

So how do we get our immune systems to recognize borrelia? We know borrelia is good at hiding from the immune system, but mine seem to be out in full force in the bloodstream.

This also seems to explain why I always herx on meds that directly kill the lyme, but then my body does not kick in and fight for itself, getting me better.

Thoughts on help for the immune system ID? Vitamin D? Vegan diet? IVIG?

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Marnie
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The enzyme indoleamine 2, 3-dioxygenase (IDO) catalyzes degradation of tryptophan, an essential amino acid required for lymphocyte activation and proliferation.

Many tumors express IDO which implied that it acts as a mechanism to evade T cell-mediated immune attack, and also to establish an

immunosuppressive tumor microenvironment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695208/

Berberine inhibits IDO.

Band 41 is one of the first bands we react to in lyme.

The 41 band reacts to a flagellum protein of Borrelia.

Specifically FlaA...a sheath protein.

cheC?

In a perfect world...IgG1k - it is the k that is important...kappa, light chain.

"transcription of the flagellin (flaA) structural gene was highly induced when cultures approached stationary phase"

(In another pathogen, but likely the same.)

See stationary phase here:

http://textbookofbacteriology.net/growth_3.html

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Keebler
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Medical Mushrooms are excellent immune support.

You might find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) who is well versed in this area but also ILADS educated.

Here's just a tiny bit of detail about a very full & complex field of study:

http://www.medicalmushrooms.net/

Medical Mushrooms
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CD57
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You might research the marshall protocol. The idea is that bacteria are pleomorphic and change form esp with treatment, and block a part of the innate immune system which is required for getting better. It's very controversial here and probably doesn't work for everyone but there are successes.
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Keebler
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It might be less frustrating to know that Borrelia can evade even the (previously) strongest immune system. It's what it does. It can fly way under the radar from the first moment it's here.

That's why an ILADS LL doctor is best to help figure out ways to outsmart it.

NDL may also be a consideration. Google: Low Dose Naltrexone and then look at lyme sites about it. Many past threads here with mixed reviews.

And, it may be that you don't exactly have to get your immune system to recognize it as long as you treat with good combination / rotation of things that work against all its forms/shapes, cycles, etc.,

and consider coinfections, parasites, heavy metals, dietary influences, etc.
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Marnie
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I believe Igenex. Band 41 is the reaction to Bb's flagella and that band happens early and late in lyme.

I suspect flagella contains *rhodopsin* (as it does in other pathogens that use light - to make ATP, for motility and for STRUCTURE) and

Hg - mercury - can lock onto rhodopsin to prevent rhodopsin from working.

It would appear the body is using whatever it can to eliminate Bb.

Need to get the bile salts flowing again which slowly eliminate Hg from the system.

Liver support.

Berberine chloride.

While light (ongoing) bleaches rhodopsin i.e., photon transfer via infrared therapy...we still might have to deal with Hg which IS very toxic to all cells.

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jwall
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LDN! I have been on LDN for a few months and my CD 57 jumped from 20 to 107 in my recent labs. I had been at 20 for years. My LLMD says LDN is the way to boost the immune system.

I am feeling so much better now! Still have a long way to go, but I definitely feel the improvement.

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mbdq
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies I really appreciate it.
I have done two trials with ldn and I felt very very sick on it all of my symptoms got worse on two milligrams a day and I never got to the point were I felt it was helping.

I will look into the berberine thanks Marnie.

Mushrooms are good idea too thanks keebler.

I have been treating with experienced llmds for 33 months now with high doses of combination antibiotics including IV.

Looking for that next step to help me move along.

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MichaelTampa
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I would think homeopathics, both Biopure and Deseret Biologics have nosodes intended to get the body to recognize/fight it.

I think these have to be used with care, don't want to start a war without the armament to fight it out. But I don't know what else would get the body to recognize/fight the stuff.

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CD57
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Also Bionic and nosodes from what I hear. MichaelTampa, have you tried that?
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Energy2Heal
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Marnie,

I see you've mentioned Berberine in several threads. In this one you mention "Berberine Chloride."

Does Berberine need to be in that specific form, or do berberine-containing plants (Barberry, Oregon Grape, etc.) contain the form we need?

Thanks!

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Nula
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Good question, Energy2Heal. I'd also like to learn more about this - if you're around, Marnie?

--------------------
I appreciate all your replies. If it takes me a while to respond, it is either because I'm too sick or because I am unable to log in. From European servers, Lymenet is very frequently inaccessible for days at a time ...

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MichaelTampa
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quote:
Originally posted by CD57:
Also Bionic and nosodes from what I hear. MichaelTampa, have you tried that?

I have not tried the bionic with nosodes, though I have been thinking about it for a while. I expect I will if I'm still at it after trying a couple other things I'm doing now.

I do believe that is another way to get the immune system to recognize lyme. Use of the nosodes would be that aspect of it, and then the fact that bionic is being used would be providing the body with energy to fight it.

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Marnie
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Berberine chloride or berberine sulfate?

IMO...use the already active/open chloride channels.

IMO...GlycoX.

It is imperative you check with your doctor and or pharmacists first to be sure berberine chloride works in SYNERGY with anything else you are taking...Rxs as well as supplements!

To be safe, start with 250mg (8-2-8) 15 minutes before meals.

Since it will increase ATP levels (works in MANY ways...that is just one), after meals (or with meals) be sure you eat something high in Mg like a few almonds, pumpkin seeds, or a piece of DARK chocolate).

The increase in ATP will drive Mg back into the cells where it combines with ATP as Mg-ATP.

I suspect the p8 protein that Bb picked up in the tick's saliva is AKT8 - a leukemia retroVIRAL protein. It triggers a (slow) cell death pathway called PI3K/AKT.

p8 prevented us from fully cleaving (chopping apart) "his" proteins. It inhibits what is called the lectin pathway...the first part of the complement pathway (immune system response to a pathogen...3 components).

I think the liver takes a hit from the get-go.

I suspect the liver cells are impacted thus:

Mg-ATP -> Mg (out) and ATP-> ADP +cAMP.

cAMP up = cells "hang on" waiting for help to arrive.

ADP + ribose -> (our) DNA repair IF a pathogen is not stealing our ribose (5 carbon sugar) to make "his" RNA.

Bb's toxin (according to Dr. Sam Donta) is ADP-ribosyltransferase - like.

Much like botulism. In fact, MS patients CAN be given botox shots i.e., an altered form of the toxin to trigger an immune response (sort of like how some vaccines work).

MS and lyme share many similarities. Both needed an IgG1k response. It is the "k" that is missing.

IgG1K (antibody) interacts with IgE Fc.

Bottom line...I think the liver needs help! Gotta get the bile salts flowing - they help remove Hg...mercury.

Berberine protects the liver and the kidneys.

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