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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Be careful with your probiotics.....

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Author Topic: Be careful with your probiotics.....
tickled1
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...they are not harmless. I have D lactate acidosis presumably from taking probiotics at lower than normal dosages. Other factors may be at play as well but here is an article about D Lactate acidosis. D Lactate acidosis causes Neuro symptoms. How many of us may have this as a remaining issue? I think that is the case for me. I will be managing it with GAPS diet, D lactate free probiotics and possibly maintenance abx if/when needed:

http://www.hkjpaed.org/pdf/2006;11;246-254.pdf

Btw, I was dx with this trough Metametrix testing. So glad I did it. This explains a lot for me.

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sickmate
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How do i know if a probiotic is d lactat free?

[ 10-16-2012, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: sickmate ]

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Muscle Car55
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Probiotics promote D-lactic acidosis in "short bowel syndrome." Hence the phrase short bowel syndrome in the title. Unless you have had your small intestine missing or surgically removed, you have no reason to worry about this.

I suggest you reading the whole article than just posting it and worrying people. I think this is a good case of why you don't believe everything you read on forums and how they can be misinterpreted.

Another reason for overweight people to never get a gastric bypass done!

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Muscle Car55
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quote:
Originally posted by sickmate:
How do i know if a probiotic d lactat free?

Page 250 "Lactobacillus species has been shown to produce the lactic acid."

Again, this is for people that have shortened intestines due to small intestine missing or surgically removed.

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Muscle Car55
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And on page 252, they talk about "abundant carbohydrates." This has a lot to do with the American diet of just eating all carbohydrate: fried food, bread, processed food, and junk food such as pretzels etc...

The combination of that and a short bowel will cause D-lactic acid formation.

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sparkle7
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It is possible to have this... It's probably not extremely common, though.

fyi -

http://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Fulltext/2010/01000/D_Lactic_Acidosis___Right_Left_Disorientation__in.25.aspx

excerpt-

Elevated D-lactate levels have also been described in patients with other gastrointestinal diseases such as ischemic colitis, unresectable adenocarcinoma of the colon, hemorrhagic pancreatitis with pseudocyst, colonic resection for adenocarcinoma, diverticulosis, and gastric obstruction due to lymphomatous infiltration (5). To our knowledge, this is the first case of symptomatic D-lactic acidosis in a child with functional short bowel syndrome due to carbohydrate malabsorption.

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soccermama
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Tickled1: Do you mean that you consumed too many probiotics? If you did, how do you know that your d-lactate levels were caused by an overconsumption of them?

Thanks,

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undiagnosed22
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Tickled,

Was it the meta metric stool test that you took in order to find this out or is there another test?

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tickled1
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MuscleCar, that is not the only way this can occur. I attached this link b/c it is a good explanation of D lactate acidosis in general.

It can happen for various other reasons. I'm pretty sure I'd remember if I had gastric bypass surgery which I haven't however I have D lactate acidosis proven through testing. I also have the awful ataxia type symptoms that go with it.

I read somewhere (I'll find it when I have a chance) that when someone has an overgrowth of yeast in the colon that bacteria can relocate to the small intestine causing overgrowth there. So, either that happened to me or it was from probiotics or in my opinion it was both.

undiagnosed, I had many tests done through Metametrix and I'm pretty sure this was detected in blood, not stool.....Ok, just looked. It was the Triad Profile (blood) and I had elevated D lactate and Phenylacetate in the blood indicating "intestinal bacterial overgrowth (L. acidophilus)".

sickmate, some probiotics are labeled d-lactate free such as "Custom Probiotics D-lacte Free Probiotic" and "GUTpro". I guess not all lactobacillus strains are d lactate forming. You would just have to do your homework and find out however most combo probiotics contain d lactate. I find it easier to just buy a d lactate free brand. And to clarify, the d lactate is a by-product of the bacteria. It has nothing to do with dairy or being lactose intolerant.

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tickled1
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MuscleCar,

You must have missed the part of my post where I said this was proven for me through testing and I have NOT had bowel surgery in any way shape or form yet I do still have reason to "worry" about this.

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tickled1
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....and I DID read the article.
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tickled1
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Another interesting thing is that D lactate free probiotics are recommended for autistic children and autistic children are also thought to have yeast.

And, getting slightly of topic, the majority of autistic patients have MTHFR mutations. Well, so do I. Homozygoues C677T which means I am a VERY poor detoxer so autistic kids (and myself) probably have an even more difficult time detoxing d lactate.

I'm sure many here have MTHFR and don't know it or haven't been tested for it. It is a HUGE factor in chronic illness.

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Haley
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Tickled - Just curious. how much probitics did you take a day - approximately?

This article also talks about eating fermented foods which I thought was suppose to be good. Way too brain dead to read the entire article.

I've been trying to focus on healing the gut which is probitics and fermented foods among other stuff.

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tickled1
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I can't remember exact dosages but I know I was taking less than the bottle said of VSL #3 and Therelac but not both at the same time.

If people aren't experiencing ataxia type symptoms like slurred speach or the symptoms listed on the following website then you probably don't have to worry. Just want to get info out there b/c I didn't think this was possible until I came back positive for it. I was attributing all of my neuro symptoms to Lyme when it is in fact the d lactate acidosis causing it.

Read the symptom list about 1/2 way down:

http://organic3.com/d-lactate-free-probiotics/

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Muscle Car55
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Before anyone jumps on the band wagon and starts buying overpriced $100-$150 lactate free probiotics, lets sit back and read the facts.

tickled1,
You said

"I have D lactate acidosis presumably from taking probiotics at lower than normal dosages."

And referred to an article about a person taking probiotics with short bowel syndrome, which doesn't relate to you because you don't have a short bowel.

And you state "your low probiotic intake caused your high D lactate?"

That doesn't even make sense, you are blaming it on your probiotic but you're not even taking that much. And if you have Lyme disease and you are taking antibiotics, chances are the antibiotics are killing most of the L. acidophilus bacteria in your gut.

Did your LLMD state that it was overgrowth of L. acidophilus? Did your Metametrix test specifically for an overabundance of L. acidophilus causing your high D lactate? Or are you just assuming.

I think you should go with what you said about other factors come into play rather than blaming it on the probiotics and telling everyone to be careful.

Like sparkle7 said referring to a post, you could possibly have one of these. Which is causing high D lactate.

ischemic colitis, unresectable adenocarcinoma of the colon, hemorrhagic pancreatitis with pseudocyst, colonic resection for adenocarcinoma, diverticulosis, and gastric obstruction due to lymphomatous infiltration

Most people can't afford $100+ lactate free probiotics. I don't want this article spinning off and people starting to believe that probiotics are bad. Probiotics are good, the benefit/risk ratio is what rules here. If people with Lyme weren't taking probiotics, chances are they're going to run into C. Diff or fungal problem. I just read in the newspaper that C diff kills 14,000 to 30,000 people a year nationwide.

And I would highly suggest getting a second test done on through a much more well-known lab. I mean Metametrix might be well-known I'm not sure, but I did look them up and the lab came upon quack watch. It's not like I trust quack watch anyways, because they say bull**** about Lyme disease.

And I wouldn't trust information provided by some company that sells D-lactate free probiotics. I can make that website in a day easily and start claiming all these things about D-lactate free probiotics.

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Lymetoo
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Tickled.. I thought "most yeast" was actually in the small intestine?

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tickled1
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I readily admitted that I don't know for sure if the probiotics caused the d lactate acidosis but what I do know is that I was taking lactobacillus acidophilus and tested positive for an overgrowth of lactobacillus acidophilus and the test results said not to take probiotics that are d lactate forming.

Yes, other factors may be at play with me. I was off of abx while continueing probiotics at the advice of my LLMD to combat yeast.

I just want to make people aware of something that most consider impossible. I don't want to scare anyone. Like I said, if someone is not experiencing the symptoms of D lactate acidosis then no need to worry but if they are then maybe this angle needs to be looked at.

I'd also like to point out that I said to be careful. I did not yell from the rooftops for everyone to stop taking probiotics that contain lactobacillus. Just trying to educate people on something that is nowhere on this board and is something that people on here should know about since virtually everyone on here takes probiotics.

Oh, and the article related to me due to the fact that I have D lactate acidosis and the patient the article was about had D lactate acidosis. What is different is how the D lactate acidosis came about.

That is my point exactly. Not much is known about D lactate acidosis b/c most doctors only know about it in relation to it being a consequence of gastric surgery. So, I'm trying to promote awareness.

I said right in my first post other factors may be at play but clearly after testing positive for lactobacillus overgrowth and d lactate acidosis it would be stupid of me to continue taking probiotics that contain d lactate forming bacteria.

My intentions were good with my post. I'm not trying to scare anyone. I wouldn't want anyone to stop taking probiotics or switch probiotics unless they have reason to believe they are suffering from d lactate acidosis. Sorry for any confusion.

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tickled1
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I dunno Tutu. I've read contradicting things about that. I wish I knew for sure.
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tickled1
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Tutu,

Here it says colon or large intestine:


http://www.wycoffwellness.com/issues/chronic-yeast-overgrowth-candida

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Muscle Car55
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tickled1, I got ya! Sorry if I came off strong, there's just a lot of misinformation in the Lyme disease world. This topic is interesting the more I read about it.

It was just the source of your article that made things wishy-washy for me.

http://lymerick.net/Gastrointestinal-spirochetosis.htm

quote:
Both Crohns disease [4] and broad-spectrum antimicrobials are known to alter the GI flora, which might have allowed such colonization.
I found this article, different topic, but same mentality talking about imbalance of gut flora in Lyme disease, but this case it's Spirochetes. And I think not taking probiotics can cause this.

I just hope you're 100% sure you have overgrowth of L. acidophilus and not Spirochetes or other coinfection.

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tickled1
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If it's not Lactobacillus overgrowth then Metametrix has some explaining to do since that's what they put on the report.

I'll check out your link when I have a little more time.

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by tickled1:
Tutu,

Here it says colon or large intestine:


http://www.wycoffwellness.com/issues/chronic-yeast-overgrowth-candida [/qb]

-
Thanks! I don't know either.

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tickled1
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I found this:

http://www.metametrixinstitute.org/post/2010/05/24/Organix-Step-6-Dysbiosis.aspx


"D-lactate elevations indicate an overgrowth of the Lactobacillus acidophilus species of bacteria. This is a common probiotic given, and works quite well in normal amounts. In some cases, however, this bacteria can overgrow and produce too much of its metabolic byproduct, D-lactate. D-lactate elevations in the blood (lactic acidosis) can cause your patient to feel brain fog, cause headaches, or lead to minor neurological symptoms. The lactobacillus sp. of bacteria thrive on sugar and simple carbohydrates, so when D-lactate is high, recommend a diet low in sugar while working to restore balance. You might also supplement with Bifidobacter sp. probiotics."

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tickled1
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...and this:


http://www.healthy.net/Health/Article/Intestinal_Dysbiosis_and_the_Causes_of_Disease/423/1


"Carbohydrate intolerance may be the only symptom of bacterial overgrowth, making it indistinguishable from intestinal candidosis; in either case dietary sugars can be fermented to produce endogenous ethanol(17,18). Chronic exposure of the small bowel to ethanol may itself impair intestinal permeability(19). Another product of bacterial fermentation of sugar is D-lactic acid. Although D-lactic acidosis is usually a complication of short-bowel syndrome or of jejuno-ileal by- pass surgery (colonic bacteria being the source of acidosis), elevated levels of D-lactate were found in blood samples of 1.12% of randomly selected hospitalized patients with no history of gastro-intestinal sur- gery or disease(20). Small bowel fermentation is a likely cause of D-lactic acidosis in these patients. British physicians working with the gut-fermentation syndrome as described by Hunisett et al(18) have tentatively concluded, based on treatment results, that the ma- jority of cases are due to yeast overgrowth and about 20% are bacte- rial in origin. The symptoms include abdominal distension, carbohy- drate intolerance, fatigue and impaired cognitive function."

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tickled1
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http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Fermentation_in_the_gut_and_CFS


"Odd sugars such as D-lactate. This right handed sugar cannot be detoxified by lactate dehydrogenase, a liver enzyme. If D-lactate is present, then it could point to a problem with gut fermentation. It may result in lactic acidosis. These patients typically present with episodic metabolic acidosis (usually occurring after high carbohydrate meals) and characteristic neurological abnormalities including confusion, cerebellar ataxia, slurred speech, and loss of memory. In a review of 29 reported cases, for example, all patients exhibited some degree of altered mental status. They may complain of or appear to be drunk in the absence of ethanol intake. Indeed, this phenomenon is much better described in the vet world. D-lactate is a recognised cause in cattle of neurological manifestations. Furthermore, products of fermentation are thought to be a cause of laminitis in horses. Indeed, the encephalopathy of liver failure can be treated by gut only antibiotics to wipe out unwelcome overgrowth of fermenting gut flora. D-lactate is fermented from sugars, including fruit sugars. This is a further reason to cut out sugar and fruit strictly from the diet! One molecule of sugar generates two molecules of D-lactate. "

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Lymetoo
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Good info!!

Do you think home-brewed Kombucha would help you?

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tickled1
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I'm not sure. It is fermented and I have upper gut fermentation. I would have to look into it.

That link provides TONS of more useful info beyond what I posted.

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Catgirl
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http://www.brendawatson.com/digestive-conditions/candida/

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tickled1
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As of right now I'm suspecting I may have diverticulitis. Wonder if this may have led to the D-lactate acidosis.
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Lymetoo
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Are you gluten free?? I think there is a connection.

here is what I was remembering.. connection between nightshades and diverticulitis

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/120284?#000000

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tickled1
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I quickly scanned your link and couldn't find anything about diverticulitis.

As far as being gluten free the answer is on and off. I do well for awhile and fall off the wagon. Nightshades do seem to be a problem for me.

I am terrified about this possible diverticulitis. I am only 37!

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MichaelTampa
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Just as an FYI, Metamatrix is very well known and respected among good health care practitioners, MD's and non-MD's alike.

Quackwatch would belong on quackwatch, if it were legitimate. Any day of the week, I'd trust a doc on quackwatch over one that wasn't, although of course there are plenty good ones who are not.

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tickled1
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Thanks for that Michael. Makes me feel so much better about everything I've been doing as a result of my Metametrix testing. Everything that showed up on their testing for me has been right on. It's expensive but in my opinion so worth it.
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Catgirl
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Ditto.

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GiGi
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From my experience, all the comments above are a good reason to learn to test yourself or get tested when choosing probiotics.

There are many different probiotics, totally different strains/content, and taking strictly one type and for years as many do is not a good idea.

You can learn to test yourself --- many people do it --- have some samples of the different probiotics that are available and take or do not take any based on that. There was a time when I had to alternate different ones daily and there are many days when my body does not want any.

Logic tells me it can easily happen that if one keeps taking the same strain over and over, an imbalance takes over.

That is why I learned to test myself -- to use a pendulum or tensor or whatever works for you. Constantly the same probiotic or even any other supplement is just as bad as eating the same food every day, year-in year-out.

There are many different probiotics out there and not every one is suitable for everyone. My body definitely says no to all or one on different days. Confirmed by doctors who are the experts in autonomic response testing.

If you learn to test yourself, you can avoid many pitfalls that happen due to taking supplements.

Take care.

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tickled1
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I'm not a huge believer in ART. Maybe that will be my downfall.

Thank you for you input though Gigi. I always like reading your posts.

As the saying goes "it's not you, it's me". I just don't understand how ART could possibly work.

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by tickled1:
I quickly scanned your link and couldn't find anything about diverticulitis.


These links were on the thread I posted above.

http://www.noarthritis.com/nightshades.htm

http://macrobiotics.co.uk/articles/nightshades.htm

From the second link:

Q: What do you offer and specialize in?

A: So the question arises if the little researched food nightshades could have health problems. The potato and tomato are our leading vegetables today and they along with peppers and maybe eggplant are in many of our daily meals.

I was made wise to the problem back in the 1950s when my doctor told me hot peppers may have irritated my intestines and caused a three-phase colostomy operation for diverticulitis. Being an horticulturist, I had researched and knew the members of the Solanaceae family and so eliminated the food members and tobacco from my diet. My health problems disappeared, including arthritis.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 95978 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymetoo
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tickled... I had my chiro blind test me on several things. Lo and behold, the ART worked on things I knew I could not eat .. such as gluten and dairy. I was surprised too.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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tickled1
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Hmmm...I believe there is something to it but I just can't wrap my mind around it. I also don't feel comfortable treating it completely as the only method for diagnosis as some do.
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GiGi
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Lymetoo, Is your chiro a certified ART practitioner?

If she/he isn't, I would not take their word for any important decisionmaking.

The person (tester)him/herself who is not gluten and dairy tolerant, for instance, has to take special precautions before he/she tests anyone with that method. In fact, they cannot test when they are not healthy and still toxic. The person with toxic metals in their body should not be testing "patients" for that and other determinations, unless they take certain precautions. If the tester is not aware of gluten intolerance, etc., he she should not test without a third arm inbetween him/her and patient.
Even the arm in the middle should be healthy.

It's a basic rule that the ART testing practitioner has to be healthy him/herself. And if the patient is not in good health, but lives with a constant blockage of the material being tested as well as other toxins that block the system, the results are not true. From what you have written here for a number of years, I would assume that is why your results obviously were not correct. If your body is blocked and in dysregulation when being tested, the blockage has to be opened before testing can go on.

All practitioners who practice ART treat themselves, each other, periodically, because it is almost impossible for them to be free of the "toxins" they are searching for in their patients. We live in a toxic world today. They do that at least once or twice a year.

The people certified in the ART system have taken usually a couple years of training and several levels of classes before they can successfully test and are certified after they pass an exam.

And tickled 1, ART is not a method for diagnosis, never has been. When people are ill, lab tests always are part of the decisionmaking.
Thinking of your problems especially, nobody would take a chance of treating without lab work and hands-on exam before proceeding.

The reason ART has not spread as successfully in this country as compared to Europe is -- ART is not learned in a long weekend. There are many phases to it before people can become proficient in it and several classes spread over a couple of years is usually just the starting point.


ART is miles away from "department store testing" - pressing on an arm "is this good for me?"
This instant method has given ART testing a bad name and has damaged it because, in fact, it is not Autonomic Response Testing.

So like everything else that is worth its while, one needs to find a real ART practitioner.

Don't give up. Best to all.

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Lymetoo
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No decisions had to be made. I was already avoiding gluten and dairy. My chiro is EXTREMELY vigilant about being gluten free himself.

What results are you saying were "obviously not correct?"

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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tickled1
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My current LLMD did ART on me one time and used a "third arm"/another person. He has not done it on me since and that was over a year ago and I wonder why. Wish I knew why he hasn't done it since.
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