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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » vaccinations while on abx

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Author Topic: vaccinations while on abx
WPinVA
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My son, who just turned five, started abx treatment today for Lyme. He's on omnicef and clindamycin (oral).

I just realized that he has his five year old well visit next week where he is due for his five year old vaccinations.

Can he get these while on abx for Lyme?

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Tammy N.
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I would steer clear. Vaccinations are so controversial to begin with. And with the immune system being so challenged with Lyme and co-infections, you just never know how the pot will get stirred.

I think vaccinations for me, when I was young, retarded my immune system for reacting normally to things. I believe they played a role in my becoming ill in adulthood.

I don't have children, but I completely empathize with your situation. Most of my friends did a ton of research, and most decided to NOT immunize their children. Try to do as much research as you can.

Best wishes.

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beaches
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http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/124071?#000000
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beaches
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Make sure you get all his titers checked! He might not need all the vaccines they recommend.

Any reasonable peds will be happy to do this for you.

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Sammi
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I would talk with your Lyme doctor about this.
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beaches
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Yes, definitely talk to the Lyme doc as well as the peds about vaccines.
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WPinVA
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I should clarify at bit. He is not acutely ill with Lyme. Given his Igenex results (Igenex pos for IGG, not for IGM), the LLMD at yesterday's initial visit said it is unclear whether he has an active infection or just past exposure. She wants to do a 9 week "antibiotics challenge" with Omnicef, Flagyl and Clindamycin to see how he reacts.

He is not currently ill at all but has some developmental delays and medical conditions that may or may not be caused by Lyme.

I was thinking of just delaying the abx for a couple of weeks until after he has his vaccinations, and also splitting up the shots so as not to overload his system. He does need the vaccinations for kindergarten in the fall, so we can't delay them for too long.

And then we could start the abx after vacc are out of the way.

Thoughts?

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Keebler
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"not ACUTELY ill with lyme" matters little when vaccines enter the picture, especially already with neurological issues (developmental delays).

I've been devastated by several over the years, even when not all that ill (I had thought). My last flu shot (when I was still able to work), caused me to be bed-ridden for a full year. I had to learn how to walk, talk, read and write again. I had no idea what words meant. My dictionary helped as I looked up words I had once learned in grade school.

And seizures, which had started actually within an hour of the tetanus shot a few years earlier - got much worse the the last flu shot I took (1993).

Sound sensitivity (hyperacusis) and sound-triggered seizures has been the worse side effect that has devastated my life in so many ways. Flashes, too, trigger seizures now -- and there is no way to go out in public, even with hearing protection. It's a terrible way to try to live.

I had undiagnosed lyme & 3 other tick-borne infections when given those flu shots so that did not help, of course. Still, within an hour of each, my neurological system was just devastated and I have barely recovered from the effects. I'm maybe 25% better but still home bound. Again, it's a terrible risk to take.

I do understand the issues and do not intend to frighten, rather to inform (I used to teach journalism so it's sort of in my blood to make sure what I've found out helps others in some way).

Still, I do understand the issues involved. Really. The "Green Our Vaccines" campaign has merit but the media just clobbered it. "Moms Against Mercury" would be a good place to begin.

It's not the idea of vaccines, it's what's in them that is the issue of many and "Moms Against Mercury" might be your first step to learn more.


Talk FIRST with the LLMD about this. I would also talk with a LL ND (naturopathic dotor) long before any decision is made. This matter will require a lot of study. There is no way around that.

If vaccines are decided upon, you will need to order SPECIAL ones that have the toxic additives possible. The ones with fewer additives can be hard to get, if even possible.

And you will need to be able to ascertain if you (he) actually gets the safest vaccine - sometimes you may be told you are but may not be getting what you think.

Both a LLMD & a LL ND should be able to guide you in where, exactly, to obtain the safest versions and how to verify.

There is mercury, MSG, and all kinds of other stuff in those that can be very detrimental.

And he would need to take certain specific supplements beforehand and afterward to help. Talk with his/your LLMD and a LL ND (if at all possible) FIRST.

Also read up on what all the LL authors have to say about this and also from Mercola's website. Do a site search here:

www.mercola.com
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[ 05-07-2013, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

Integrative / Holistic M.D., etc. (Be aware that those in this category can have various levels of formal herbal &/or nutritional education, perhaps even just a short course. Do ask first.)

Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees . . . .
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Keebler
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You would want to find an up-to-date or more current article that may supercede this one, as it's a few years old but it gives you a hint as to the precautions to take:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/19/The-Truth-about-the-Flu-Shot.aspx

What To Do if You are Forced to Take Swine Flu Shot (by Dr. Mercola) 2009

Excerpt (from the very end of the article - so do not rely only upon this section, see the full article):

. . . .

Treatment for Toxic Vaccine Exposure

1. Place a cold compress on the site of the injection immediately after the injection and continue this as often as possible for at least two days. If symptoms of fever, irritability, fatigue or flu-like symptoms reoccur -- continue the cold compresses until they abate. A cold shower or bath will also help.


2. Take krill oil as a source of animal based omega-3 fats.

3. Curcumin, quercetin, ferulic acid and ellagic acid as a mixture -- the first two must be mixed with extravirgin olive in one teaspoon. Take the mix three times a day (500 mg of each)


4. Vitamin E (natural form) 400 IU a day (high in gamma-E)

5. Vitamin C 1000 mg four times a day

6. Astaxanthin 4 mg a day

7. Zinc 20 mg a day for one week then 5 mg a day


8. Avoid all immune stimulating supplements (mushroom extracts, whey protein)

except beta-glucan -- it has been shown to reduce inflammation, microglial activation and has a reduced risk of aggravating autoimmunity, while increasing antiviral cellular immunity.


9. Take a multivitamin/mineral daily (one without iron -- Extend Core)

10. Magnesium citrate/malate 500 mg of elemental magnesium two capsules three times a day

11. Vitamin D3:

A. All Children -- 5000 IU a day for two weeks after vaccine then 2000 IU a day thereafter

B. Adults -- 20,000 IU a day after vaccine for two weeks then 10,000 IU a day thereafter

C. Take 500 mg to 1000 mg of calcium citrate a day for adults and 250 mg a day for children under age 12 years.

12. Avoid all mercury-containing seafood

13. Avoid omega-6 oils (corn, safflower, sunflower, soybean, canola and peanut oils)

14. Blenderize parsley and celery and drink 8 ounces twice a day

15. Take Jatoba tea extract (add 20 drops in on cup of tea) one day before the vaccine and the twice a day thereafter.

you can get it at iHerb's site for under $8.00:

http://www.iherb.com/Amazon-Therapeutics-Jatoba-1-oz-30-ml/14429?at=0
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Keebler
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http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/Articles/Advice-for-Parents-to-be-Pregnant-Women-etc.html

Advice to parents-to-be . . . 2004, Dr. K

Excerpt:

VACCINES: the vaccine issue has many layers. It is clear from an epidemiological point of view, that the more people are vaccinated, the less
the spread of the related illnesses.

It is also clear from my clinical experience, that many children have developed autism, hyperactivity, and asthma or suffered severe brain damage within a few days of vaccination.

Vaccines are good for the community, but potentially bad for the individual.

The immune system of a child takes 24 months to mature and is very vulnerable during this time. Many vaccines still contain ethyl mercury, one of the two most toxic mercurial compounds.

By the time the child is 6 years old, the accumulated amount of mercury from vaccines is clinically significant.

No one escapes this damage.

Today mercury free vaccine alternatives exist, but are not yet routinely used only by request. The pharmaceutical industry is using up its old supplies first.

The high risk to contract hepatitis B is either IV drug users or prostitution. Hepatitis B vaccination is forced on newborn babies here in the US, but is outlawed in France. How many newborns do you know that use IV drugs with contaminated needles or engage in prostitution?

I make my recommendations to my patients along the above understandings.

What I will do with my own child is very clear to me but will stay private. I recommend reading the work of Dr. Tenpenny or reading up on the vaccine issue at: www.mercola.com . . . .
(end excerpt)

Google: Tenpenny, vaccines

And search site above to see more current detail as this is from 2004.
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[ 05-07-2013, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Connect with this group. I'm sure they can share their research & suggestions on this important issue.


http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/

Lyme Induced Autism Foundation
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Keebler
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http://www.momsagainstmercury.org

MOMS AGAINST MERCURY

Scroll down to see this set of links:


Flu Shots Are Dangerous - Thimerosal in Childhood Vaccines

- Dr. Mark Geier David Geier (Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Spring 2003).


Toxicity of Thimerosal

- David S. Baskin, Hop Ngo, Vladimir V. Didenko Department of Neurosurgery, Baylor College of Medicine.


Autism: A Unique Type of Mercury Poisoning

- Sallie Bernard Albert Enayati, BS, ChE, MSME Teresa Binstock Heidi Roger Lynn Redwood RN, MSN, CRNP Woody McGinnis, MD.


How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Degeneration - University of Calgary.


-- and much more. See the "Research" Tab & the contact detail there for you, too.
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Keebler
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Google: Kennedy, vaccines

Many good links here to get you started, then you might find his own site (I'm too tired for that last step).

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. has done an excellent job with extensive research on this issue for many years. Be sure to find as much as you can that he has written, as well as his presentations (YouTube is a place to begin but there are other sites, too).

Most sadly, journalists have dropped the ball with this, big-time.
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Keebler
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I often wonder just how the journalists have so dropped the ball on so many vital issues. There are many reasons and I can only . . . (not think at all right now, really, as to how I wanted to finish that sentence but will trudge ahead at an attempt).

ALL Networks, even local TV stations pay medical doctors to deliver reports, etc.

Notice who advertises on these same TV local stations and network news programs. The very medical centers, organizations, and pharmaceutical companies.

Same with print media. Check out the ads. These medical advertisers sign the paychecks and keep the lights on.

Journalists don't have time to truly research these issues so they just give the microphone or the print page to the paid doctor-celebrity.

Nothing against any government health group is allowed. These doctors turned "journalists" know who signs their paychecks, too, but mostly they are indoctrinated in the pharmaceutical and CDC / NIH mindset and may not even be able to see beyond all that.

They want things black & white. And, often, the human body when exposed to toxins like mercury, does not present a clear picture. Dots don't always connect in one quick neat photo-finish -- but the full body of work such as Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. has collected speaks volumes to those who actually take the time to explore it.

But the government "health" agencies and the pharmaceutical industry's bottom line is money. So much of this is about money: sales of the vaccines; avoiding lawsuits; cost to make vaccines safer.

They'd rather deny than listen & change.
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tick battler
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Most states give you the choice to opt out of vaccines for either medical reasons or religious reasons. I agree with Tammy - I would steer clear if it were me. I wish I did not vaccinate my boys and am glad I stopped with my daughter at 1.5 years when she lost her coordination for a day after the measles vaccine. That was the last vaccine any of my children got.

tickbattler

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Tammy N.
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My eyes were opened to the concerns of vaccines at an early age. I had a half sister who was 3 1/2 years old who died after the DPT shot. She had that famous blood-curlding scream, and was brain damaged, then started to experience grand mal seizures. She died during a seizure. All very sad.

I know this is not the most common of occurrences, but it certainly is what opened my eyes at a young age. Years ago I did a ton of research and felt certain that if I was to have children, I would not immunize.

No one should judge you on your decision. You are a loving mother trying to do your best. My only suggestion is that you do the research so you can feel settled about your choice.

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beaches
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I just don't think it's that easy of a decision.

Sure, if a kid has an adverse affect to a shot, even the most traditional peds will advise to not administer it again.

And yes, shots like gardasil, flu, pneumonia are no-brainers to people like us (meaning those who are dealing with TBD).

But...parents have so much more to consider...

For instance---

--what do you do when your teen, who has a history of Lyme, etc. goes off to college and it's time for the meningitis vaccine?

--what do you do when you find out your teen has no immunity to measles?

--what do you do for a kid whose immune system is suppressed and he/she has no immunity to varicella?

Do you just send these compromised kids off into the world hoping for the best--that they won't get meningitis, measles or chicken pox?

Or do you vaccinate them using pre- and post-emptive strategies with help from their doctors?

That's an easy answer for me, personally.

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derk diggler
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POISON!!!!!

--------------------
+++++++
do i have lyme, please comment, derealisation,anxiety,floaters,hypertension,tinnitus,dizziness,minor aches,igenix results,igm,**83-93ind,igg**41++ what do u think,please comment

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beaches
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derk, that's just not very helpful IMO for the purposes of this thread, although I do appreciate the sentiment.
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WPinVA
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I respect the opinion of people who do not vaccinate their kids particularly if there are medical reasons, past bad reactions or past tragic experiences, but I didn't mean to open up a vax vs. not vax debate.

Our question here is the timing of when to do them, not whether to do them.

LLMD said to wait on starting abx until after vax. Message was relayed on voicemail via a nurse who spoke to LLMD so I didn't get to get into all of the nuances.

But I do have an appt set up with our integrative primary doc next week for this purpose so I'll go over it all with her.

FWIW, he has had all of his vaccines so far, and has done ok. I just didn't want to stir something up with the abx, and them do the vax on top of that. Thanks for all the input!

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Keebler
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In defense of Derk, his post is appreciatied. There are poisons in some of them. And we need to know that.

My concern is being able to come to a place in our world where a good is not always poisoned.

As the root of the idea of vaccinations, it's a good idea. However, the industry has poisoned the supply.

The "Green Our Vaccines" movement and "Moms Against Mercury" are not so much saying the IDEA of vaccines are dangerous but what's in them.

I believe we should all be pushing for "cleaner" vaccines. Instead, it seems that the population has been beaten down and will now just accept the crap we are given. It's what I see happening by the majority, anyway. And that is very frightening, knowing the dangers of mercury and other additves.
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tricia386
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NO vaccines, thats what got me in this mess!

--------------------
Lyme activated in April 2010 by gardasil vaccine.
DX: Lyme,Babs,Myco,Bart 11/10
Treatment Started: 3/28/11

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girl
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My child is 7 and not vaccinated and she rarely gets sick. So many children damaged from vaccines have damaged guts. The body just doesn't have the good microflora to combat the microbes in the vaccines and induce a proper immune response.

If your child is on antibiotics (which would further deplete the good bugs), I would have to give a big fat NO.

Sometimes you have to go against your Doc on these things. Keep in mind pediatric Doctor's and nurses HAVE to believe they are doing the right thing by vaccinating these kiddos. Otherwise, how could they live with themselves?

Also keep in mind this is the 21st century and many things that were around back in the day just aren't here anymore.

For me, it is scarier TO vaccinate rather than not. Arm yourself with knowledge and you'll have the courage to stand up to these people, if that is what you choose.

http://www.nvic.org/ is a good place to start.

And don't ever let anyone tell you, your child HAS to be vaccinated to attend school. It's simply not true!

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beaches
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Keebler, like I said, I appreciated Derk's sentiment. I just didn't think it was particularly useful to the topic at hand. I appreciate your idea of pushing for "cleaner" vaccines, but I'd venture to say most mothers on this board have their hands full enough as it is.

WPinVA, eventhough you didn't mean to open up the "vax vs. not vax" debate, you did, and that's OK. Sometimes when we post, one thing leads to another...

I think you are doing the right thing in terms of getting opinions and input from all your son's docs.

Girl, I'm glad to hear about your 7yo and I understand your decision.

But again, I'd ask you and everyone reading this to consider real-life scenarios I gave previously.

You say that many things that were around back in the day aren't here in the US. But there's no denying that measles and chicken pox and meningitis certainly are still in our midst.

And so the question remains: how do you deal with a sick kid who doesn't have immunity to these things? Do you toss him into the mix hoping for the best?

Or do you work with your docs to devise a sensible, reasonable, well-thought out plan to help your kid get immunity to these diseases, which can be life-threatening to a compromised kid?

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girl
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To me, injecting an already sick child with toxins like formaldehyde (almost in all vaccines) is only going to make a sick child sicker.

If you make the decision to go forth, I would just do the main ones or the ones you feel absolutely necessary. I would request vaccines w/ no mercury. Make sure they're not from the bottom of the "barrel", or that they're single shots instead of the kind that come with ten doses in one package. That way, your kiddo won't get the last, strongest dose and things like that. If you're using the single doses, it should be an even mixture, if that makes sense.

I'd also give him plenty of vitamin C before hand and make sure he's got plenty of good gut flora to protect himself from possible neurological damage from the vaccines. Most of the kids with vaccine injuries did not have the proper gut flora when they were innoculated. (See "epidemic answers" on face book.)

You know most of the measles outbreaks the majority of the kids WERE vaccinated, right? Meningitis is one I would consider.

But just because you vaccinate doesn't mean you will get the expected immune response. For example, you can get a Hep B series of 3 shots and still not produce the antibodies. So you might want to do what the above poster mentioned and get the titers to see if he's already immune.

He may not need the "boosters" after all.

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girl
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Also, of note, the chicken pox vaccine causes "shingles" later on in life. OUCH.
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MannaMe
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My nephew got the chicken pox vaccine and then got the chicken pox worse than his non-vaxed siblings!
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Tammy N.
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It makes you wonder....which is worse? the illness or the vaccine? Is it better to just have a bout of the illness? (then hopefully gain lifelong immunity). Sadly, vaccines don't give the full protection they imply.

Our nation gives more vaccines than just about any other....and we seem to have more chronic illness, auto-immunity, etc.

There is no easy answer here. I just wish the powers that be truly had all of our best interests at heart.

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beaches
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Well this has turned into a very interesting and informative discussion. Too bad its not taking place on a national level. Afterall, this issue concerns the health of our countrys children and their futures.

Girl, I appreciate your point about injecting more junk into a kid who is already sick. We discussed all vaccine issues with several docs and each one (including LLMD and integrative docs) said the shots were a better alternative than contracting the diseases themselves in the case of an already compromised child.

I am not referring to one child who received 3 shots. I am referring to two children, one of whom received the measles shot (when measles was available w/o the mumps and rubella), and the next year received the meningitis shot. The other child received the varicella booster.

These decisions were not easy, to say the least. I didnt want my kids pumped up with junk, but I also didnt want them to end up gravely ill from these diseases. Compromised kids cant bounce back from run-of the-mill illnesses as it is, much less from diseases like these.

Im the above poster  who suggests parents get their kids titers checked before doing any shots. Im also the one who suggests doing the bare minimum when it comes to these shots, meaning no flu shot, no HPV and others I cant think of at the moment.

Yes, you are right. Just because you are vaccinated doesnt mean your body will produce the antibodies necessary to become immune to an illness.

The best example of that IMO, is the chicken pox vaccine. My youngest received the shot prior to entering school and I had my doubts about it vs. getting the chicken pox itself. This was pre-Lyme. Needless to say, she, along with many of her peers who were vaccinated lost their immunity to varicella and were told boosters were needed. If my daughter was healthy, I might have foregone that booster.

Girl, it isnt the chicken pox vaccine that causes shingles later in life. Its the varicella that lays dormant in your body from having had the chicken pox (or presumably the vaccine) that later becomes reactivated in the form of shingles. Many elderly and immuno-compromised people develop shingles and theyve never had a varicella shot. The varicella booster is relatively new. It is not the reason why people get shingles.

Tammy, youre right. There are no easy answers here.

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tick battler
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One of our practitioners said the same thing as MannaMe: when whooping cough was around last year, the kids who were vaccinated got it worse than those who were not.

tickbattler

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beaches
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Yeah, I don't doubt it. DD had a bad reaction to pertussis after the first shot, so that was it for her.

And wouldn't you know, she ended up being immune to it despite just that one shot as a baby.

I can't say it too many times: Get your kids' titers checked prior to letting them get any shots!!!

Today I overheard a disturbing conversation. A mother who had just given birth was given the flu shot (in the month of May, really??).

Worse, her newborn was also given the shot (don't even get me started on that one). The hospital made a mistake and gave the newborn the "adult" dose of the flu shot. I didn't know there was any differentiation between the adult shot and the peds shot.

But OMG, it's just shocking that this brand new human being was actually given any shot at all.

What is wrong with people?

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beaches
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And that just really speaks to the fact that a patient in a hospital setting or a doctor's office and any parent of a child in those circumstances needs to ask as many questions as possible until he/she completely understands....

"what's in that IV and why am I/my child getting it?"

"what is this medication and why is it being prescribed to me/my child?"

"why are you recommending this shot/vaccine for my child?"

And parents acting on behalf of their children, as well as all patients, need to understand that, among other rights, they have the right to refuse treatments/vaccines/etc.

For more info, google "patient bill of rights."




"

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Beverly
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I think there is too much bad stuff in vaccinations and it messes up the immune system. Research it, often wherever breakouts occur people who got sick were already vaccinated, they don't even work that well.

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Keebler
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http://www.realfarmacy.com/if-your-doctor-insists-that-vaccines-are-safe/#CPWeCX6Bi2XOJXt2.01

links to: home site ? http://preventdisease.com/

Dave Mihalovic is a Naturopathic Doctor who specializes in vaccine research, cancer prevention and a natural approach to treatment.

If Your Doctor Insists That Vaccines Are Safe, Then Have Them Sign This Form
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Keebler
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Just brought this back up as a sort of "information links set" to build upon.

As school starts soon & autumn is just around the corner, this issue looms - with absolutely important & complex considerations.
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tick battler
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If your child has developmental delays...be aware that additional vaccines could potentially cause more. Now that I have been through this with my children, the delays would be a red flag to me to research both sides of this issue further. I finally now realize why my son started saying words at age 1 and then they disappeared. We needed therapy to get him speaking again so that by age 3 he was finally talking.
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GretaM
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This is a great thread to bring up Keebler, thank you.

My experience last week after a tetanus booster vaccination was terribly frightening, and personally I will never get another vaccine in my life. EVER.

My body just doesn't need any more environmental or internal assaults at this time.

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lax mom
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Thanks Keebler. Very timely thread for me.

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sammy
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I've done well with the newer versions of the vaccines. I had the Tdap for work, then had Hib and Prevnar for immune system testing. I see a very well known LLMD and he supported the need for these.

My sister gets my niece's shots separated only doing one or 2 per week. That way she hardly gets a fever from them. She didn't like the thought of having 4 or 5 shots at a time.

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Lymetoo
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If you decide to do them... SPACE THEM OUT.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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