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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Extreme herx?

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Author Topic: Extreme herx?
xrunnerx2012
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Last night was the worst I have ever felt.

It started out with a bad headache (different from my normal head pressure). tried to use an ice pack but I got no relief.

Then once getting into bed after American Idol, around 10, I started to feel nauseated. I tried to fall asleep. Then, blood pressure got really slow and I felt scared to fall asleep. Anxiety started to kick in, started feeling dizzy, even for nauseated, panicked. Had to walk around, get some lemon water, burbur, and parsley extract. I drank a full cup.

I sat up in my bed for 30 minutes. Usually after I drink that combination my herx symptoms go away. This time they were. I started to feel very cold, fatigued. A part of my leg twitched really bad for a few seconds and my left calf tightened up and started hurting. My heart would race at times. I had to go to the bathroom 2-3 times (#2.. stools were normal) which is unusual for me. I felt really jittery and not well at all. Eventually my headache kind of went away. I was up until 1:45 until my mind and body felt comfortable enough to fall asleep. I also woke up again around 2:30 feeling really weird, stayed away till 3:30, then was able to fall asleep. Woke up around 9 feeling kind of normal, but with my head pressure. Also feel pretty fatigued.


I am been doing my normal protocol (Mepron, Bactrim, Chlorella, supplements, Cholestyramine)

However, 1 week ago from yesterday I started Quintessence which has Androphraphis, chinese smilax, Japanese Knotweed, and red root (BioPure brand) and Gastromycin, which has, Licorice root, grapefruit seed extract, goldenseal root extract, aloe vera extract, and activated charcoal (Allergy Research Group brand). I take both of these in the middle of the day. Now that I look back on all these ingredients it seems like a lot.

The only thing else I can think of is that I ran out of salt so I havent done salt/c the past two days, but yesterday around 6 I took 5 grams instead of my normal 4 grams of vitamin c, but i dont think that would cause such a reaction. The day before I also the vitamin c, but it was 4 grams, but around the same time and I felt fine.

I was so close to going to the Er. I literally thought I was dying. I still feel weird/out of it and a little jittery. Has anyone ever experienced anything like that before?? I have felt like that a few times, but that was magnified x100, no joke.

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Jane2904
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Sorry you are not feeling well..

Bumping up in hopes someone may help.

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TF
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What you described sounds to me like a person given a strong stimulant. That will cause jitteriness, fast heart beat, bowel movements, headache, and some of the other symptoms.

If I drink caffeine, I can feel all of this plus dizzy and somewhat panicked.

So, I would look for a stimulant as the cause and once you find it, stay away from it.

It is amazing what caffeine can do to me.

If you take the stimulant on an empty or near-empty stomach, that is enough to magnify its effects. It CAN be scary.

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Razzle
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Licorice is a stimulant.

Plus, that was like a Buhner protocol on steroids mix you took... I suspect a herx...

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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xrunnerx2012
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I did have coffee on Thursday but it was around 8 am. Friday was a bit rough but not as bad, except Friday night I felt bad at dinner but it went away. Then Saturday in the mid afternoon kind of the same thing happened again that happened Thursday night. I had horrible chills fatigue a few episodes of heart pain. I was out of breath and nauseated. Then after taking burner and parsley it went away

. Now today, for the first time since being sick, my whole body is sore and achy. My finger joints hurt, I have burning sensations in my arms and legs. My muscles hurt and I have random stabbing pains. I read andrographis goes after lyme hardcore, is this true?

I just really hope that the herbs are killing stuff and that I am not backsliding and letting Lyme take over my body because I'm not on meds that attack it yet.

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sillia
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Your description does sound like a really bad herx. The worst one I ever had was when I started taking antiparasite meds--I took the 'recommended dose' which was way too high for me. I had SEVERE head pain/pressure, then nausea and vomiting. I felt like I was being poisoned.

I think that parasite treatment and babesia/protozoa treatment overlap quite a bit, so one can get die-off effects from both at the same time.

My feeling is that the symptoms are caused by toxins from die-off (herx) and the way to avoid the worst of it is to keep your doses low enough. Sometimes this can't be avoided, especially if you don't know yet what sort of effects a med or supplement will cause.

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Keebler
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-
Yes, this can be partly a herxheimer reaction (and the Smilax and Androgrpahis might be too much or need more food).

Still . . . TV likely assaulted, you, literally. You might take a TV break for at least 3 days. Maybe pick up a musical instrument and just make some sounds for yourself, even if you just sing - or listen to music that is soothing in the evening.

It can take the body several hours to calm down from any light at all, not to mention the light attacks on these kinds of shows.

Watching American Idol would make me feel very ill from all the sensory assault. So that is to be considered as part of the picture here, too. Seriously. I think there is a huge connection between that and your symtpoms. Huge.

It is sad that the production techniques have come to a a war of with our senses but we have to recognize the disasterous effects it can cause us.

The over-stimulating effects on the entire nervous systems, the adrenal system, eyes and even heart rhythm changes can last for a day or more.

Seriously, my guess is that all your symptoms (if not most) can be from watching this show - or others like it. Even TV at all, can be a disaster to our healing.

Try to stay on the travel or documentary programs - or comedy, light music without any special effects - in the evening. I know that is hard -- or just LISTEN to these other kinds of music shows and do not watch.

You say:

"nauseated. [trouble falling] asleep . Then, blood pressure got really slow and I felt scared to fall asleep. Anxiety started to kick in, started feeling dizzy, even for nauseated, panicked." (end quote)


ALL this can be from the inner & middle ear - and eyes, for a start. That can trigger the dizziness & nausea and that can then affect blood pressure. The stress on the adrenals can then trigger the panic but so can the inner ear upset all on its own.

What we see with our eyes also greatly affects the inner ear and, for many with lyme, that entire system is greatly sensitive.

------------------------------------

I have some other thoughts about the formula with Andrographis and Smilax, though.

Are you taking that formula with FOOD? Both of those can have some "effects" so it's best with food and also to always start VERY, VERY LOW DOSE and increase only very gradually. VERY GRADUALLY.

Both of those ingredients, especially the Smilax, can cause nausea. Anytime there is nausea, blood pressure and adrenal stuff can get out of whack.

Those two things jumped out at me.
-

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Keebler
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You say you took 5 grams of salt around 6 pm. I'm not well versed in the Salt/C protocol but my understanding is that it is not good to take it all at once, but sip throughout the day.

Ask Gael about this, glm111.
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Keebler
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Your LL doctor REALLY needs to be consulted about your experience (and that it seems to not be an isolated experience).

You say: "I was so close to going to the Er. I literally thought I was dying. I still feel weird/out of it and a little jittery. Has anyone ever experienced anything like that before??" (end quote)

Well, yeah, just about anyone with lyme. It's very common, actually. And chances are no ER can help.

There are many things we can do (or not do if pushing is part of the problem) for ourselves, however, but it starts with your LL doctor.
-

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Keebler
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Cholestyramine deserves its own post. Now, some do fine with that but some can have the effects that you describe from it. I did.

Cholestyramine can deplete our vitamin and mineral stores. Your symptoms sound very much like magnesium deficiency, and that can be made worse with Cholestyramine.

I tried and tried but could not tolerate it. You might consider that Cholestyramine is not a good idea -- consider that. Do without it for a while and see if you have any improvement.

There are many other ways to help remove neurotoxins, many.

Also be sure that the Cholestyramine you take does not contain any aspartame of spenda, by any name. Many do. Why that matters:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=029690;p=0

Excitotoxins; MSG; Aspartame; & "Natural" Flavors
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Keebler
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http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=123746;p=0

Topic: MAGNESIUM LINKS sets

Pulling out just a few of the posts from that fuller set - so that you don't have to go to the ER, and can help yourself at home:


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725934/

The role of magnesium in the emergency department


http://magnesiumforlife.com/medical-application/magnesium-in-neurological-diseases-and-emotions/

Magnesium in Neurological Diseases and Emotions

. . . Natural Emergency Medicine when used in emergency situations. . . .

----------------

Other ways to stay out of the ER:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/89790

Topic: NATURAL SLEEP & ADRENAL SUPPORT
-

[ 05-19-2013, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Razzle
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Yes, Andrographis hits a lot of things hard. I had to start with a tiny dose at first, and it took me a long time to work up to 600mg/day...which is a drop in the bucket compared to what Buhner actually recommends with the herb.

And he's deprecated the use of Andographis in favor of other herbs, because some people have a tough time tolerating it.

I think the difficulty tolerating it has to do with how hard it hits the bugs...but this is just from personal experience...

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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Keebler
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Of course read all Buhner has written about these in any of his books or on his site. And:


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/119089?#000000

ANDROGRAPHIS paniculata - LINKS SET


Search SMILAX (or it may be listed as SARSAPARILLA) here:

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tilltoson, et.al.)


Also search at: www.itmonline.org
-

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xrunnerx2012
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Thank you for the replies I really appreciate it. I didn't bother calling my doctor because her nurse wouldn't of had gotten back to me until tomorrow anyway. I am going to call tomorrow. I feel like its going to blow over her head and just say it was a herx which I am hoping it was/is.

I have been taking the andrographis mixture on an empty stomach but I've been doing that all week and nothing happened until around 9 pm that night and I took it early that day.

I have been on cholestramine since January and I have tolerated it very well. I just checked and its regular table sugar/sucrose in it. At least it's not Splenda or aspartame but I am going to check into getting it from a compounding pharmacy.

Tomorrow I am going to limit what I take and see how I feel.

Do you think it's okay to take a magnesium supplement? I am on 3 binders now and I am worried I'm depleting my system. Would that cause all of my muscle soreness that I've experienced today? I am going to try an Epsom salt bath.

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Keebler
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Q: Do you think it's okay to take a magnesium supplement?

You are not currently taking any magnesium? If not, that could explain a lot.

How is magnesium going to deplete your system? It supports your cells. It's a required nutrient. Too much can cause loose bowels but too little can cause terrible problems and if you've not been taking it, chances are you are severely deficient from the symptoms you post.

Also, it can't be taken with Cholestyramine. Time several hours apart. Take magnesium 3 x a day. Always divide the dose.

Magnesium Glycinate probably the best source for you if you are concerned with loose bowels (that would come from other forms). Best to avoid any aspartate forms (too stimulating).

If you are going to take a Epsom Salts bath, NOT HOT water but just cozy warm for no more than 20 minutes.
-

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Keebler
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Who in the world prescribed cholestramine with regular table sugar/sucrose in it? (Rhetorical response, no need to answer.)

Is your practitioner not LL? A good LL doctor of any kind would never do this. Did some signals get crossed?

As sugar feeds candida, it could be that you are having some CANDIDA flare, then. On top of all the other things that make so much sense, this could be an added clue.

Hopkinton Drug, just outside of Boston carries it pure. You can add stevia and even Carob Powder if you like but I see no point in trying to make this taste good.
-

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xrunnerx2012
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Yeah she is a llmd referred by alot of people I've talked to. Dr. L is MD. Sometimes I feel rushed and that there is not a great interest being taken in my health. I try to tell her how horrible I feel and also every time I go in her nurse tells me "how great" I look. Dr. S is also MD but apparently he doesn't take new patients and is 1200 first visit.

[ 05-19-2013, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: faithful777 ]

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robbiem
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Sounds like major parasite die off to me.

I find that you can hit a point in treatment where all of the sudden you hit things just the right way with a certain combination, and all he** breaks loose literally.

The pm BM's, along with the over the top anxiety, and extreme nausea are usually the give aways for me.

Did you have any liver pain with this, as this often comes on for me as well.

I would suggest trying a higher dose, if possible of your detox items. Also keep an eye on things coming out with your stools -- although gross, there is an advantage to putting aside your squeamishness and throwing on a pair of latex gloves and poking through what resides there after you've had a BM. Gross, I know, however very, very informative as it will help you to better identify and understand whether or not you are dealing with parasites/worms, which honestly I would be willing to bet that if you look you will certainly find interspersed there in with the mix.

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annxyzz
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Some forms of andrographis ( esp concentrates ) literally felt like speed to me and also caused insomnia and loss of appetite for me.

Others, like Nature's Way did not have a bad effect at all.

You might lay off the andro if you have another bad reaction and see if there is a change.

When I herx I ache all over , feel like sleeping , have chills and a headache . My feet, for some reason feel frozen in ice .

--------------------
annxyzz

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