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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Mild Hyperbaric Treatment (Page 37)

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Author Topic: Mild Hyperbaric Treatment
kgg
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I have a friend in Arizona who uses a wheel chair for distance. She can walk around the house briefly. She has a service dog. There is a learning curve for getting the dog used to the noise and presence of the wheel chair. But otherwise it is very successful. But you need to make sure the scooter is approved for outside use. She found that one scooter she was considering buying to be only used inside.

What about a high school neighbor? There may be one that loves dogs but doesn't have one that would be willing to walk your dog. Just a thought.

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Hominahomina
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I asked a young lady who also had a dog if she would walk ours too when when she walked hers she is not a high school girl though
She and her sister are asking a lot of money so I don't know if that will work out
I am still thinking of options
Thanks everyone for giving feedback on one of the small problems we face as lyme suffers

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toyswalk
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Hello. I have posted in awhile, but I have been diving (about 825). I have some catching up to do on reading posts! While I work on that, I have a question.

I know that hard chamber HBOT is contraindicated for patients with COPD. But, what about mHBOT? Has anyone researched this or have an opinion based on personal practical experience? Thanks!

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kgg
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Many years ago when I was in nursing school, they taught us that people with COPD should only have 2 LPM of oxygen. Any higher than that and it decreased the reflex to breathe. Which would not be good. I haven't worked in years, so I don't know if they have changed that number or not. But I would say a doc should be conferred with to make sure it is OK to dive.
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Toby Wong
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Hi. I had metronidazole toxicity 10 months ago. My main symptoms are:
1.anxiety- which are getting worse and worse as time goes on
2. supplements sensitivity- I can't tolerate 90% supplements

I don't know do I have lyme or not.

I started hyperbaric oxygen therapy. Did 15 sessions, each lasted about 58 minutes. I feel worse these 15 days. Is herx common for all HBOT patients, even if they don't have Lyme.
Also, metronidazole may elevate mercury levels . It is possible that I have mercury toxicity. Does HBOT helps detoxing heavy metals from the body?

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Toby Wong
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kgg
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Toby, I felt worse when I first tried mild HBO. I started at a full hour. The second go, I started at 10 minutes and ramped up on my time. It was much more tolerable that way.
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reminder
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Toby,

Take kgg advice,

Almost 1000 dives later and I still have to be careful...it took me a few months of daily 20-30 minute dives to work my way up to 1 hour with a mask (02).

Monitor the supplements,herbals or any additional
therapies....learned first hand...I felt any and all of them.

Wish you well

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

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Phoiph
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Toby~

Are you doing HBOT, or mHBOT (mild pressure)?

If you are doing HBOT in a clinic, what pressure (ATA or PSI) are they giving you? Are you wearing a mask?

As mentioned, it is crucial for many conditions to use lower pressures and ramp up slowly.

Yes, mHBOT definately assists with detoxing (at the cellular level), but again, this must be done slowly, as to not release toxins faster than they can be eliminated. People vary in their ability to eliminate toxins.

Also, a clean, gut healing diet and gentle exercise (like yoga) is crucial, as well as not adding on additional detoxing therapies, or taking too many supplements/antioxidants at the same time.

You will likely need more than 15 sessions.

[ 05-30-2018, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Phoiph ]

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Phoiph
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quote:
Originally posted by toyswalk:
Hello. I have posted in awhile, but I have been diving (about 825). I have some catching up to do on reading posts! While I work on that, I have a question.

I know that hard chamber HBOT is contraindicated for patients with COPD. But, what about mHBOT? Has anyone researched this or have an opinion based on personal practical experience? Thanks!

Hi Toyswalk,

I will repeat some of what I answered via email to you here:

As I understand it, care must be taken with the use of oxygen in general with COPD if the person retains carbon dioxide, as it may diminish the breathing reflex. To prevent this from happening, they may be prescribed only a specific amount of 02 to keep their blood 02 within certain parameters.

That said, here is an encouraging article about COPD and hyperbaric oxygen:

https://www.newsmax.com/t/health/article/717529?section=dr-maxfield&keywords=copd-stem-cells-oxygen-therapy&year=2016&month=03&date=04&id=717529&aliaspath=%2FHealth%2FArticle%2FArt icleTemplate

Do you have a pulmonologist? I would definitely ask about how 02 relates to your condition specifically, and how you can use it safely.

This is one of the reasons why people are technically supposed to have prescriptions for oxygen/oxygen concentrators.

I think you are wise to research this...even if you were cleared for mHBOT a couple of years ago, it is always good to revisit issues if you feel you are not making the progress you hoped for. I feel there is always a reason, we just have to keep looking.

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Haley
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Hello everyone.... I’m back. I thought I would try to get back into mHBOT.

I am too brain dead to explain everything that has happened. Bottom line is I am sick as hell 😫. Lyme disease was a walk in the park compared to my symptoms now. I have Morgellons now.

I can’t remember the time line when I was diving before, but I did get to a point where I was emerging from the abyss. I was walking on the beach every day , swimming in the ocean. I felt that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. One day I swallowed a bunch of ocean water and got sooooooo sick 😷

I developed sores all over my body, had severe itching, severe GI problems (Chrons, colitis type symptoms), my mouth and gums are swollen, my brain more messed up than before, heart problems, UTIs, inability to breath, weakness and fatigue. I also had this incredibly disturbing symptom that things were crawling all over me, in my organs etc.

I write some of my symptoms here because I’m hoping mHBOT will help and I can mention which symptoms have changed.

I’ll be praying 🙏 for the group and diving every day (God Willing).

Thanks for the words of encouragement Phoiph

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Peimomma
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Welcome back Haley,

Sorry to read you’re in a worse state now.

There is hope when consistency can happen.

I rarely dive and am working full time and walking 8-10 miles a day. Life is completely different now for me, it’s normal. I live life as a 50 year old would and have more energy then most of my work mates.

These first weeks will be hard most likely since you are so sick but there is a light at the end and you’ve been there before.

Keep us posted.

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kgg
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Welcome back, Haley! I look forward to reading when your symptoms list dwindles. Happy diving!
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Rodge
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Hi guys, i just joined today but have been reading the boards. Lots of great info.

Phoiph, i have a question about you for this mask. I know you said you have to be careful with the non-breather mask. What do you think about this set up?

http://biotoxinjourney.com/the-case-for-mild-hbot/

Theres a video he made for me on how to make it. Its several different masks put together. Please let me know,thank you!.. [Smile]

--------------------
Rodge

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Digby
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Welcome to the group Rodge!

The mask the guy made at that link you posted seems like too much trouble to me. I prefer to keep it simple and use a simple, non-rebreather mask with valves to let air in if you over breathe the content of the bag. I always take them out of their plastic and air dry them for a week or two to get the smell out.

BTW, Phoiph doesn't agree with using this type of mask but I've recently completed 1000 dives and it has worked well for me.

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Rodge
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Hi Digby and thank you for the warm welcome! I like the non-rebreather masks too because youre getting more oxygen. And wow, youve done a lot of dives. I dont know your whole story but after how many dives did you really start to feel a shift? I know everyone is different. Its seems its like in the 70-80s.

Also i have MTHFR & CBS mutations and wondering your thoughts on that and mHBOT? As well as what supplements you think are good while doing this therapy? Thx!

--------------------
Rodge

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Digby
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Rodge, I think I finally started to feel a shift in my health around 120 dives in. I almost gave up but Phoiph asked me to stay the course and I owe her a huge debt of gratitude for all her advice.

My advice to anyone doing mHBOT is to remove antioxidants from you supplements. They interfere with the oxidative processes that the HBOT induce.

My other advice is to eat a Ketogenic diet. I firmly believe that it was the combination of a strict keto diet AND the mHBOT that has caused me to go from homebound/wheelchair to hiking and riding a bike.

I don't concern myself too much with the genetic mutations because I think that the positive epigenetic lifestyle changes shift one's genetic expression to a more homeostatic balance.

Hope this helps.

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Rodge
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Digby, thats what i was hoping to hear about all the things youve said. Im glad you stuck with it and finally started to feel better, kudos to you and Phoiph!! Genetics get tricky and some ppl tend to hyper focus on them. While i know they can hinder certain things, your lifestyle plays a huge part in turning them on and off. I already eat keto and have read a little bit about how much it can help while doing mHBOT. Can you send me a link to the mask you use/have?

--------------------
Rodge

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Phoiph
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Awww, thanks, Digby...but giving up is not your M.O...:)

Welcome, Rodge...

I agree with Digby about the antioxidant supplements. Getting them via your diet (as opposed to supplements) is best.

Digby mentioned that I am not in favor of the non-rebreather masks for our purposes, and I'll explain why...then you can make your own decision.

Non-rebreather masks are designed to be used with oxygen flows of at least 10-15LPM. IMO, using them at lower flows creates safety and effectiveness concerns.

The oxygen concentrator most frequently recommended for use with a home chamber (the Air Sep New Life Intensity 10), should be set no higher than 8 -8.5LPM, or the backpressure from the chamber can cause it to go into an “oxygen on demand” mode to retain oxygen purity.

A 10-15LPM or higher flow is recommended to ensure the non-rebreather bag will stay partially inflated (at least 1/3-2/3 full) with incoming 02. If the bag does not stay inflated properly due to less than adequate oxygen flow, then the following is possible:

1. If the non-rebreather mask is equipped with a working safety valve, it will allow normal room air to be inhaled if the bag deflates. If this happens frequently due to inadequate oxygen flow, then I am not convinced that the person will receive a higher 02 concentration than with a Simple Hudson Mask.

2. If the non-rebreather mask does not have a safety valve, but has had one of the side vents removed for safety, then 02 will be diluted with room air and it will function similar to a Simple Hudson Mask anyway.

3. If the non-rebreather mask is not equipped with a working safety valve (and the mask fits snugly and no other side valves have been opened or removed for safety) there is a risk of suffocation if the bag collapses.

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Hominahomina
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Digby
What kind of non rebreather mask do you use?
Do you notice greater benefit?

Phoip
What kind of mask do you use?

Thanks

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Digby
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Rodge,

I shop them each time I buy so I don't have a link and I can't figure out how to add a pic of the label on this platform.

So, the label says it is a Dynarex Oxygen Mask, High Concentration, Non-Rebreather, Check Valve, one side valve.

Reorder # 5303

Let me know if you can't find it on Google.

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Hominahomina
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From what phoip says it has to have a safety valve and that makes sense
I see them on ebay will have to look again

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Phoiph
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Homina,

Just to be clear, I personally don't recommend the non-rebreather for the reasons I mentioned above; I use the "Simple Hudson Mask".

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Hominahomina
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Okay Phoip I will check out Hudson mask too
Thanks

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reminder
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Hello,

Question about hunger and diet.

Been diving for some time now and finally keeping weight on my body.

I see this as a positive,however,now my hunger is overwhelming?

It may seem trivial but eating Paleo for some time and ALWAYS being hungry ?(blood sugar is fine)

A good friend emailed me stating "your body is probably absorbing nutrients now")

That being said still around 80% and glad to be there......just hunger?

Thanks you all

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

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kgg
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Reminder, I go in and out of being hungry like that. Almost cravings but not quite. I try to keep healthy snacks handy. I have a bad gut, so I considered it a healing thing. I think I remember reading that others experience this too.
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Hominahomina
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Digby
Is their any other rebreather mask you like?

For others including Phoip

Does the new life intensity 10 concentrater have sufficient airflow at 8 to properly inflate the bag on a non rebreather mask under pressure?
Thanks

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Digby
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HH, I really like the one I mentioned above, mainly because it has 2 valve openings so if you over breathe the bag, the air will come in one of those openings. Other models may have only one opening which to me, increases the risk of running out of air.

I use an Sequal Integra concentrator and with it set to 10 I never run out. I don't know how it will work with the New Life unit.

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Digby
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Reminder...There are lots of versions of the Paleo Diet, so it's hard to comment on your question. If you are hungry, you may need to reduce carbs and/or increase healthy fats. That will typically take care of the hunger.
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reminder
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Digby,

Yes more good fats and olive oil,mostly chicken,fish.....not as much beef....bone broth...veggies...berries

One big question,I drink a couple cups of coffee w coconut milk and pure stevia on a daily basis,it helps with the constipation.....sorry for too much info,decaf green tea also.

Lastly,the rebreather sounds like an option if you are starting to heal?I couldn't imagine starting mhbot with that high level of o2?

Now,however,you have me thinking.

Always great info here....grateful

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

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Digby
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Sounds like a good mix of macro nutrients. Not sure what your question is but check the carb content of your coconut milk. You might try coconut cream if your's is too high in carbs. It is a good addition to a Paleo diet.

Yes, everyone has to figure out what level to start at based on how sick they are. Slow with incremental increases is best.

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reminder
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and as for coffee? just can't give that one up

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

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Digby
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Coffee has lots of beneficial components, the only problem is if you are drinking more than ~ 3 cups a day in which case you could find it irritating to the intestinal tract. Of course depending on your genetic snps and liver detox pathways, too much caffeine can be a stressor to the central nervous system and the adrenals. Moderation grasshopper!
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20PlusLyme
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Hello all, I just registered today but have been reading other parts of this forum for years.

I have had Lyme symptoms for over 20 years. Eventually my doctor suspected Lyme and I started testing negative over 10 years ago. Increasingly severe symptoms led to further testing, positive 5 years ago for Lyme + Bartonella. Since then I have done about a year of daily IV antibiotics, years of oral antibiotics, herbal protocols, Rife plasma, diet adjustments, detox, etc. through multiple LLMDs, trips to the ER and hospital admissions.

These years of treatments made some improvements from my worst, but I still have a high constant level of pain and other rotating symptoms with no relief. I have been researching treatment options intensively for the past 5 years, and I saw HBOT mentioned but discarded it as yet another wacky treatment for symptoms only.

A few months ago I was having increasing stomach problems with the latest oral antibiotic plus herbal combination I was on, but if I stopped the antibiotics my symptoms got much worse (raging neuropathy). When a friend with Lyme said they tried mHBOT a couple of times and it helped with symptoms I took a deeper look at it and was surprised to find credible references (including this forum) for oxygen not only killing Lyme, but helping to repair the damage.

I tried a few mHBOT sessions at a clinic to understand the mechanics and make sure I could tolerate it, then purchased my own chamber for home use. I got a Newtowne chamber with an AirSep Intensity 10 concentrator and have been diving for 60-70 minutes daily with a mask for the past month and a half. I spent my hours in the chamber reading this forum from the beginning (that took a while!) and the Oxygen Revolution book.

My stomach problems got worse just before I started diving consecutively and I had to try stopping the oral antibiotics. No massive symptom increase yet and I have been off antibiotics now for much longer than I was able to be previously, so maybe the mHBOT is helping.

I had a few spikes of symptoms between sessions that I was able to control with detox and may have been herxes. I usually feel better than usual for a few hours after diving in the morning, but over the past couple of weeks have had increasing pain and headaches, consistently worse than my average level. The better is encouraging, the worse is getting discouraging and making me wonder if I need to take breaks or make other adjustments?

What has been the most successful protocol for how often and how many minutes to treat?

I have run across the following so far:
60 minutes twice daily
60 minutes daily, no breaks
60 minutes 5 days on, 2 days off per week
90 minutes Monday Wednesday Friday
60-90 minutes once or twice a week
Sets of 40 treatments (daily or 5 on 2 off) with a break between?
Any others?

Much as I didn't want to, I stopped my consecutive diving yesterday to research further and seek advice.

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Peimomma
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Welcome 20PlusLyme to the group.

I am a 60 minutes every day believer for 2 years minimum as Phoiph recommends. You are early in treatment so things will get worse and better. You will read the slogan “two steps forward, one step back. Journaling is a great way to track progress, setbacks and any tweaks that might be needed.

I was 20 plus years sick as well and I believe Phoiph told me it’s one month of treatment for every year you have been sick, minimum.

It’s a marathon not a sprint. Looking forward to your updates. I know many that have NT and like the chamber.

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Charles12
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quote:
Originally posted by Digby:
Coffee has lots of beneficial components, the only problem is if you are drinking more than ~ 3 cups a day in which case you could find it irritating to the intestinal tract. Of course depending on your genetic snps and liver detox pathways, too much caffeine can be a stressor to the central nervous system and the adrenals. Moderation grasshopper!

I drink coffee, but it’s worth mentioning that caffeine is an immunosuppressant.
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Charles12
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quote:
Originally posted by Peimomma:
I was 20 plus years sick as well and I believe Phoiph told me it’s one month of treatment for every year you have been sick, minimum.

I’ve been sick for nine years now. I’ve been diving for ten months.

My neural symptoms, like anxiety, brain fog, those are mostly gone.

I still have POTS, exercise intolerance, and chronic low grade inflammation - with all the damage that does.

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kgg
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I also dive, or attempt to, daily for 60 minutes. When first starting there were days that I would skip if my herx was more than I wanted. Typically it only took a day off to feel back to "normal".
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Digby
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If anyone is concerned about the immunosuppressant action of caffeine, here's a deep dive into it: https://bpspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/prp2.180

From reading this my take away is that it is immunosuppressant but in a way that reduces inflammation. Moderation is the key.

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Digby
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20+...I think most of the people on this forum who have had success with mHBOT (myself included) have done 1 hour/day at pressure. My experiments with 90 minutes dives made it clear to me that less is better.

If I had the time to do it, I would experiment with 2 30 minute dives a day. I have reason to believe that may work better but it's just too much of a time investment now that I'm feeling better.

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20PlusLyme
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Thanks so much everyone for the welcome and helpful comments. I was hoping to see more improvement after 50 dives, but maybe its just a bad time. I got back in the chamber today after two days off and will try to stick with it, 60 minutes daily again.

@Peimomma - I definitely agree with the value of keeping a health journal. I started writing down notes trying to relate my various symptoms 13 years ago. This is how I figured out that I probably had Lyme despite the negative tests and demanded more testing that was finally positive. I still keep my journal every day - it has been extremely helpful.

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20PlusLyme
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Speaking of keeping a journal, when I was in the hospital every day for IV antibiotics they were always asking me what my pain level was for their records, so I started keeping track of it in my journal as well. It makes it easier for me to measure each day, along with more detailed notes so I can try to figure out what might have caused the change. I searched for good descriptions of each level to try to keep my ratings consistent. Here is the scale I use in case it might help someone else:

0 Pain Free
1 Pain is very mild, barely noticeable, most of the time you don't think about it.
2 Minor pain. Annoying and may have occasional stronger twinges.
3 Pain is noticeable and distracting, however, you can get used to it and adapt.
4 Moderate pain. If you are deeply involved in an activity, it can be ignored for a period of time, but is still distracting.
5 Moderately strong pain. Can't be ignored for more than a few minutes, with effort can do work or some social activities.
6 Moderately strong pain that interferes with normal daily activities. Difficulty concentrating.
7 Severe pain. Dominates your senses, significantly limits ability to perform daily activities or maintain social relationships.
8 Intense pain. Physical activity is severely limited. Conversing requires great effort.
9 Excruciating pain. Unable to converse. Crying out and/or moaning uncontrollably.
10 Unspeakable pain. Bedridden and possibly delirious. Very few people will ever experience this level of pain.

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Charles12
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quote:
Originally posted by Digby:
If anyone is concerned about the immunosuppressant action of caffeine, here's a deep dive into it: https://bpspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/prp2.180

From reading this my take away is that it is immunosuppressant but in a way that reduces inflammation. Moderation is the key.

That makes sense to me. My vision sometimes improves when I have a few cups.

On the other hand, I can get some pretty nasty headaches if I overdue it. Probably the Bartonella.

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Charles12
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quote:
Originally posted by Digby:
20+...I think most of the people on this forum who have had success with mHBOT (myself included) have done 1 hour/day at pressure. My experiments with 90 minutes dives made it clear to me that less is better.

If I had the time to do it, I would experiment with 2 30 minute dives a day. I have reason to believe that may work better but it's just too much of a time investment now that I'm feeling better.

At 60 minutes I don’t really feel much of a herx. At 90, I do.

That doesn’t make going longer better I suppose.

For me, I start to feel pain and stiffness in my joints. Also long bone pain.

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reminder
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Digby,

With a rebreather mask....how much does the O2 increase... Compared to the regular hudson mask?

As percentages go....and thanks)

Reminder

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

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Digby
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Reminder,

A rebreather mask will deliver 85 to 90% O2. I don't know how much a simple hudson delivers.

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Hominahomina
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Digby I checked on the Dynarex Oxygen Mask, High Concentration, Non-Rebreather
If Phoiph is correct it takes 10 to 15 lpm to properly inflate one of these masks

How would it work on 8 lpm?

What is your oxygen concentrater setting when you use the mask?
Thanks

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Digby
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HH...I have a Sequal Integra, which I run at 10 lpm. It fills the bag fine and I don't run out of air unless I engage in deep breathing during the dive. Actually I don't run out of air at all...the bag empties but the valves allow air in.

I don't know how it would work at 8 lpm.

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20PlusLyme
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I use a Salter 8140-7 'non-rebreather' mask which comes with both side valves installed, no open ports. I don't like 'rebreather' masks (which don't have an internal valve to the reservoir bag) because if the flow of oxygen is inadequate or stops you can easily end up rebreathing your own CO2. If the oxygen flow stops with a 'non-rebreather' it's pretty obvious because I can't inhale (if all valves are installed and you have a good seal) and am forced to immediately remove the mask.

According to this article the normal resting minute volume is 5-8 liters per minute
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_minute_volume

I have to adjust my mask and strap carefully to make a good seal. When I first started diving, sometimes if I got in the chamber and put the mask on right away my respiration rate was fast enough to empty the reservoir bag and I had to remove the mask until I relaxed more from the effort to get in and zip it shut. I resolved this by simply resting until the chamber was up to pressure before I put on the mask. It works well for me with my Intensity 10 concentrator running at 8.5 LPM.

Here is a table comparing oxygen delivery methods with HBOT that I found at:
http://biotoxinjourney.com/the-case-for-mild-hbot/#HBOT_Partial_Pressures_of_Oxygen_Table
Which I think is great site by the way. Note that EWOT Mask = Non-Rebreather Mask in this table, and there is more detail at that site.

code:
HBOT Partial Pressures of
Oxygen Table

Room Air Nasal Cannula Simple Mask EWOT Mask Pure Oxygen

1.0 ATA 160mmHg (1.0) 182mmHg (1.1) 380mmHg (2.4) 532mmHg (3.3) 760mmHg (4.8)

1.3 ATA 207mmHg (1.3) 237mmHg (1.5) 494mmHg (3.1) 692mmHg (4.2) 988mmHg (6.2)

1.5 ATA 239mmHg (1.5) 274mmHg (1.7) 570mmHg (3.6) 798mmHg (5.0) 1140mmHg (7.1)

1.75 ATA 279mmHg (1.7) 319mmHg (2.0) 665mmHg (4.2) 931mmHg (5.8) 1330mmHg (8.3)

2.0 ATA 319mmHg (2.0) 365mmHg (2.3) 760mmHg (4.8) 1064mmHg (6.7) 1520mmHg (9.5)


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reminder
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20+,

I started last week...NRB 10-15 minutes per day...something is happening and it is positive,however,waiting for any "fallout"or reactions....great article!

Digby....thanks)

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Chronic Lyme

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Hominahomina
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Thanks 20 Lymeplus
You say you get the Salter with both side valves installed
Does that mean you have an extra valve installed or does that mean all the Salter 8140-7 mask have two valves installed ?

Please Clarify

Thanks again

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Digby
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20PlusLyme, I remove the valve from one of openings so I always have access to fresh air. Would that work for your setup?
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20PlusLyme
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reminder - glad to hear you are making positive progress, looking forward to further updates.

Hominahomina - the Salter 8140-7 comes with two valves installed, see the picture in the spec sheet I linked below. "valves" sounded complex to me at first, but they are actually just small flexible plastic discs pushed onto a pin over the holes. If they are installed they only allow the air to flow in one direction. You exhale through the ports on the sides of the mask, and if the discs are installed on the outside of both ports it prevents inhaling external air, so only oxygen can be supplied from the reservoir bag. The internal port from the reservoir bag has one of these discs also, but it works in the other direction and only allows the oxygen to come in. This prevents you from exhaling into the reservoir and then "rebreathing" your CO2, thus the non-rebreather name. If you search for the Salter 8140-7 on eBay you can find a medical supply place selling them very reasonably, that is where I bought mine.

I found the spec sheet for the 8140-7 with a good picture in the PDF documentation.
The description of this model is "Elongated high-concentration non-rebreathing mask 7' safety tubing and without safety vent"
http://www.previmed.ca/catalog/oxygen-therapy/accessories-oxygen-therapy/salter-oxygen-masks-22128/details

Digby - if one or both of the exhale valves are removed then external air will be inhaled and mixed with the O2 so the concentration will be less. It will use less oxygen from the reservoir bag so it will stay more inflated, and like you mentioned you will always have access to fresh air even if the bag deflates. I think removing one of the valves adds the 'safety vent', maybe required for patients who can't physically remove their own mask if there is a problem?

With a nasal cannula or a simple mask some (50%+?) of the oxygen is wasted because the oxygen is flowing while you exhale and it goes out the vents. With a reservoir mask that oxygen is stored up for when you inhale next. The concentration you get is a matter of how good the seal is. A small amount of what you exhale is retained in the mask so I often try to pause for a second after I exhale so the CO2 is pushed out of the mask before I start to inhale again to get the maximum possible oxygen concentration.

I'm new at this though, only a few weeks into diving, others here have much more experience. Is more oxygen better? Looking forward to hearing other opinions and results.

I'm not a doctor so please don't take any of my posts as medical advice.
Just another Lyme victim sharing my personal experience.

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Hominahomina
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Thanks that is helpful
It is worth a try

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Phoiph
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Everyone...this discussion is very concerning to me. Please be careful. I repeat, none of the non-rebreather masks you are discussing are designed to be used with the low oxygen flows we are using.

If you are not using the safety vents and fall asleep, pass out, or have a seizure and deflate your bag, what do you think could happen? Masks such as this are designed to be used under supervision.

If you are using the safety vents, you are inhaling room air mixed with O2 just like a Simple Hudson Mask anyway (with some resources reporting the same percentages of 02), so why take the risk?

I understand this has worked fine for Digby (and we are friends that agree to disagree on this one), but everyone breathes at a different rate and volume. Your risks and results will vary.

Neither the Sequal nor AirSep New Life Intensity 10, when taxed by the backpressure of a chamber, will put out the bare minimum 10LPM flow recommended for the non-rebreather mask (many resources suggest minimum 15LPM). The Sequel, when set to 10LPM, may drop to around 8, and the AirSep must be set at 8-8.5 max LPM to keep if from going into an oxygen-on-demand mode to maintain purity.

More is not always better, and I am concerned about everyone's safety here...

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Hominahomina
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Thanks Phoiph your concerns are noted and I will proceed with caution
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20PlusLyme
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Thanks Phoiph, I'm new at this and certainly don't want to lead people in the wrong direction. You have much more experience and success with treatment.
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Digby
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20PlusLyme...nice explanation of why it's called a non rebreather mask! Yes, removing one of the valves will allow some air to enter the mask but most of it will come from the bag.

Phoiph, you are correct that we disagree about the mask issue, even though I owe you a huge debt of gratitude for keeping me on task with diving when I was about to quit. You are an angel posing as a former Lyme sufferer! Still, your wrong about the masks...just kidding. Actually, I think it depends on the level of disability, i.e. for someone really sick that may have trouble removing the mask, I agree that a simple hudson mask is best. Some people might even do better by using a cannula at first.

I do maintain that if one of the valves is removed, you shouldn't ever run out of air. I have even put my mask on before hooking it up to the O2 supply and although it takes a little more effort, I can still breath.

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Phoiph
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Here is a study that addresses the safety concerns of the non-rebreather mask and suggests a safer and more effective alternative:

Southmedic OxyMaskTM compared with the Hudson RCI® Non-Rebreather MaskTM: Safety and performance comparison

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4751967/


Thanks to jcarlhelp for bringing this mask to our attention very early on in this thread.

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Rodge
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Hey guys! Wanted to get everyones opinion on doing multiple(2x) 1 hour dives per day...? If you have the time and you feel good after the first one, why would it not be a good idea to do another hour later on....? TIA!... [Smile]

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Rodge

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Digby
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Rodge, it's not a good idea because HBO is a hormetic stressor. In other words, it's your body's response to the stress that creates the healing. Think of it like working out with weights, if you don't have a rest period between workouts, you don't build strength, you just break down the muscle tissue.

I have wondered if 2, 1/2 hour sessions a day would be better but I'm not willing to spend that much time on it to find out.

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Hominahomina
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50 Dive update
Hello All I wanted to give an update
I have done 50 dives
I dive 3 or 4 times a week 80 minutes
I include an herbal lyme formula from time to time

I experience a herx for about an hour or two after each dive and I use chlorella and coffee retention enema which really helps clear out my system and reduces kidney pain 85% My urine is dark the next morning

Normally the herbal formula gave me a considerable herx witout HBOT
using the formula and HBOT which is a pretty big hit on lyme does not produce a comparitive herx
I say this because it shows HBOT is working


Diving makes my nails and hair grow faster and my skin still tightens on my face after dives
I am deep breathing during the dives with a hudson type mask

I am planning on 90 minute dives including a non rebreather mask from now on will let you know how this works


I am using a 27 inch newtowne chamber and an airsep new life intensity 10 concentrator set on 8
The chamber is holding up nicely so far

Thanks

[ 06-16-2018, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Digby
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HH, FWIW, After I had done about 500 dives I started 90 minute dives for a while, thinking that more is better but that was not the case. I got worse and it wasn't a herx, so I went back to 60 minute dives (Thanks again Phoiph for talking me off that cliff!) and my improvement continued.

I've expressed this many times before but I think that due to the hormetic nature of this therapy, adding more time tends to increase the oxidative stress on the body. Perhaps beyond what we can respond to in a healing way.

I have wanted to experiment with 2 half hour dives a day which I suspect may be more healing than a one hour dive but I currently have 3 people using my tank, so the logistics are too complicated.

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Charles12
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Oxidative stress is a good thing, in moderation. It’s the primary benefit of HBOT, it’s what kills the bacteria. Too much is a bad thing though, too much can hurt your inner ear, for example.
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Hominahomina
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Charles that is an interesting point
Do you have any support for the idea that oxidative stress is the principle action of HBOT

Thanks

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Phoiph
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Oxidative stress is fundamental to hyperbaric oxygen therapy, by Stephen R. Thom. Journal of Applied Physi9ology 106:988-995, 2009:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2660252

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Phoiph
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Digby~

Thanks for the kind words... [Smile] .

Regarding doing mHBOT for 30 minutes 2x per day instead of a full hour 1x per day...I read that there is a "sweet spot" reached about 45 minutes into a dive where the optimum benefits begin to take place. (I believe it was in Dr. Harch's literature.)

Hominahomina~
There is no rushing this process, but IMO you would progress faster if you were to work up to diving daily for 1 hour only (rather than 80 minutes 3x per week). mHBOT is a cumulative process, and it is best to do consecutive days. (This has been studied and documented by Dr. Paul Harch, who has pioneered mHBOT.)

Like you, many people here have tried to rush the process, only to set themselves back. This is why I encourage everyone to read the entire thread so they can learn from other's experiences, and they won't be tempted to re-invent the wheel.

You can have too much of a good thing, and oxygen can be toxic. As Digby mentioned, if you overdo it, your endogenous antioxidants will not be able to keep up, and your body will experience oxidative damage. This is the exact opposite of what you want to accomplish!

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Hominahomina
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Thanks for the link Phoiph
If you have that link from Dr Harch on optimal dive duration I would like to read it


I post my progress reports to add my experiences to what others are saying so newcomers will have a good picture and can decide how they want to procced

If I am wrong about my protocol I will note it in future reports
If my protocol works better for me I will also mention that

So far I notice no adverse reactions with longer dives but I may not know for sure for awhile


Thanks

[ 06-18-2018, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Charles12
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quote:
Originally posted by Hominahomina:
Charles that is an interesting point
Do you have any support for the idea that oxidative stress is the principle action of HBOT

Thanks

Many drugs work this way. Artemisin does, for example. The immune system too.
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Phoiph
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You can read his book: "The Oxygen Revolution", by Dr. Paul Harch.

His website is: HBOT.com

This article, which I have posted many times, discusses optimum duration of treatment for neurological conditions:

More is Better: The Recurrent Illusion of Higher Pressure HBOT in Chronic Brain Injury, by Dr. Paul Harch: www.wisconsinhyperbarics.com/research-pdf/more-is-better.pdf

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Hominahomina
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Okay thanks Phoiph I will check that out
I did not know drugs worked that way Charles12

Why does Lyme take so long to kill off ...... anyone?

[ 06-17-2018, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Hominahomina ]

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Digby
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Phoiph, I finally read that study on the masks and was concerned about the CO2 concentration being higher but then realized that it is only higher at 2 lpm. At the higher level there is no significant difference. Unfortunately, they tested 2 lpm and 15 lpm, not the 8 - 10 lpm that we use for mHBOT.

I want to make sure everyone understands that I wouldn't suggest a non-rebreather mask (NRBM) unless it has 2 vents and one of them has the valve removed. That is the only configuration that is safe because it allows enough air to maintain life :^) in a situation where the O2 is cut off.

I really wish they would have tested the mid range in that study. If the CO2 would be higher with the NRBM at 8 or 10 lpm I would switch to the simple hudson mask (SHM) immediately but I don't see how that is possible because the only real difference is the bag. The SMH has 2 open vents vs. 1 open vent in the NRBM. Now I have tested the NRBM without the O2 concentrator running and I can still breathe albeit slower than with it running.

What really surprised me was that the O2 concentrations seem to be the same with each mask. I really thought the NRBM would deliver a higher volume of O2 because of the bag but that study suggests otherwise.

Thanks for the link to the study. From now on I will go with the less expensive of the 2 masks because there doesn't seem to be any difference in the O2 delivery.

Posts: 518 | From NW Arkansas | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Digby
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OK, rather than edit the above post, I will admit that I was mistaken about the O2 delivery. After I reread the study I see that the SMH provides a slightly higher lpm of O2 across the board. I still don't understand why and I know I read the opposite but it was from a manufacturer's site not a well designed study like this one.

Guess I need to get the SMH. And I take back what I said earlier about you (Phoiph) having it wrong (even if I was kidding). Thanks for the education!

Posts: 518 | From NW Arkansas | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Phoiph
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Thanks, Digby...but I think there is still some confusion here.

This study was comparing a non-rebreather mask (made by Hudson) with an "open mask" by Southmedic (not a Simple Hudson mask). If you look at the photograph closely, you can see the open structure.

I was suggesting the open mask as a safer and more effective alternative to the non-rebreather.

Posts: 1505 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
reminder
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anyone....ear ringing is one of my biggest problems now and wondering if maybe too much o2...too fast?

this started over 1 week ago...along with what feels like a "mind herx"? swelling in brain

the good part is my body feels pretty good....


R

--------------------
Chronic Lyme

Posts: 36 | From Florida | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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