Marz
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3446
posted
Cd57 I had a similar experience flying last week. At a certain.point in the air my headache stopped, stiff neck went away, and my thoughts were normal.
Thought it was due to cabin pressure but maybe it waz due to altitude. I literally didnt want to come down to earth!
Posts: 1297 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
spinning sent you a PM
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just wanted to add that mHBOT has been one of the best treatments I have done over the years. Not a cure, and it was a S L O W process. Can't emphasize enough that for me, it took a solid 2-3 years. But when I got 24 months into daily 1.3 dives roughly 5x a week for an 60-90 min's, plus cutting sugar and gluten from my diet and some supplements, I eventually looked back and said, wow! It's a journey, not a destination. It was two steps forward, a step back. It was NOT overnight. By far, one of the treatments I would never give up. You can probably search for old posts of mine, have not been on Lymenet for years. I suspect a certain amount of commitment is truly needed to recognize any gains. Best of luck.
Posts: 261 | From Washington | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
amazing noodlydoo! what is your story - what infections and conditions did you fight?
did you really do daily dives for 2 years, wow?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
up
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you all for the posts over the last 18 months. I've read each of them and contacted Phoiph to start the process.
I have learned so much from reading what others have done and what therapies or meds you each are using.
I've been sick for 25 years and have tried all the meds and therapies out there and some work to a point. I look forward to reading more updates and will post once I get started.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
up
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
I had a session HBOT (not mHBOT, but HBOT) at a doc office, was looking for some thoughts/suggestions on what happened.
The problem I had was sinus pain, above my left eye mostly, and they adjusted the pressure so I could manage to be comfortable, no doubt with safety a concern. After the session, he said he had to put it just at "chamber pressure", that it didn't get close to up to the pressure they would normally use, that it was even less than 1.0 ATA.
The last comment, less than 1.0 ATA confused me. I kind of thought 1.0 ATA would be regular atmospheric pressure at sea level. Is that something else?
So I am assuming what I had was even less than what mHBOT would be?
I really just had one session scheduled, trying to scope out for the future, if I wanted a whole series of HBOT treatments, or I wanted to get a mHBOT machine, or if I wanted to go in a completely other direction.
What he told me, if I wanted to puruse, I should do a number of anti-inflamatory and other anti-this-or-that type things. He really spoke too fast for me to remember everything he was saying, but I heard ibuprophin was one of the things he listed, the others fell in that general category to my untrained ears as other things people take for pain relief.
Generally I have avoided the ibuprophin and aspirin and that kind of stuff (though he did not mention aspirin by name), knowing some cause GI issues and others cause liver issues and I have enough of those.
I had taken 2 grams of quercitin about 1 hour prior to the treatment, intending that would help, but still I did have that problem.
My conclusion is maybe I need to treat whatever problem I have in my sinus before pursuing, perhaps there is an infection in there, I believe there was in the past, and I have always had problems in airplanes.
If anyone has any thoughts on if there might be friendly enough ways to deal with the sinus issue, though, I am curious to hear.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Michael...
It is possible that they were referring to 1 PSI (pounds per square inch), rather than 1 ATA (atmospheres absolute).
In that case, you were probably only able to pressurize a little (still somewhere below 1 PSI), which would convert to only slightly above 1 ATA (1 ATA is sea level).
It sounds like your sinuses were congested and wouldn't allow air to equalize (the ears being the other place that this can happen).
I suggest ruling out an infection (w/your doctor or ENT), and discuss trying natural ways of clearing your sinuses (e.g., saline and sterile water rinsing with Neti pot, acupressure, etc.). Naturopaths usually have good suggestions.
Be cautious of nasal sprays, etc., as these can only be used for a short time and can have a rebound effect when you stop...and I agree with your concerns regarding ibuprofen.
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Anyone talked to Looking4Hope?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well I just received my chamber yesterday and finished my first 30 minute dive tonight! Just wanted to add to the thread that another lymenet user is using mhbot. Will update periodically.
Posts: 20 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
CD57 I have not heard from Looking4hope, I tried to text him, but never heard back. I have since lost all of my contacts. I wonder if Phoiph has heard from Looking4hope.
nitsuj1225 - welcome to the one and only Lyme mild hyperbaric oxygen group. You won't regret it. Keep in mind it takes a long time. That's what Phoiph kept telling me.
I'm here to give a brief update, I'm sure that I will repeat some of the things I have already said, oh well, it's an update.
I have had my chamber since 9/3/14. I have been in almost everyday for one hour, but I am beginning to take a couple of days off a week. Partially because I am doing many different things, not something that Phoiph recommends.
I also have an extremely clean diet which includes 64 ounces of green juice a day and 3 to 4 liters of good water. I pay someone to make juice for me, but since I am beginning to have more energy and less weakness I also make them myself. I just throw a bunch of healthy stuff in a blender. The hardest part is cleaning and cutting up fruits and veggies. There are ways to make them very tasty, just google creamy smoothies (or something to that effect).
I have a PEMF mat that I use about an hour a day, if I can fit it in to my health ritual.
Additionally, I have started the Cowden protocol, only because my SIL sent me the first month and had to try it. I truly believe this protocol helps, but it does make me tired.
Hopefully, I am not speaking too soon, but I do believe I am at a place where I will not have to go back to antibiotics (God Willing). Antibiotics have been the only effective treatment for me in the past. I have not been on them for at least 2 months, and sense that my body is continuing to strengthen along with my immune system. Believe me, I still have days when I can't get out of bed, but I'm confident that when I am off of the Cowden herbs the fatigue and weakness will lessen.
All I can say is that my bodies' systems are "working" better. For example, when I go in the sauna I sweat buckets. In the past, I would go in the sauna, not sweat much and come out feeling worse. When I wake up in the morning my head does not feel like a bowling ball that I am unable to lift off of the pillow (although still some fatigue, no doubt).
My biggest issue now is cognitive. I become easily confused and feel as if I'm floating or drugged. Sometimes if I'm speaking to a group of people I feel like I am not making any sense at which point I say to myself "whatever, I'm still fabulous!".
I thank God for Phoiph and those like her that have unselfishly paid it forward, looking for nothing in return. These are the people that have provided each piece of my puzzle. I hope to one day follow in their footsteps.
My advice after having been sick since 2007, diagnosed and treating since 2009......
Pray that God would lift the fear and keep breathing pressurized oxygen... believe that our perfectly designed bodies will prevail in the midst of all the darkness and suffering... one day you will tell your story to someone else and pull them out of the black pit of hell.
[ 02-08-2015, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Haley ]
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...
Encouraging update!!! It made my day, and I'm sure is an inspiration to others!
Thank you for the kind words...and I love your advice. I also love how you call yourself "fabulous" no matter what...(now that's the spirit!!!)
I have connected with Looking4Hope...he's very busy and has been through a stressful time , but doing well overall. He said he will post an update sometime soon...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
4 dives in so far. Started at 30 min, then increased 5 min every session so I will be doing 50 min tonight and eventually be at an hour on Thursday and remain there.
Definite herx (increase in most symptoms) but manageable which is why I have been increasing the time. I'm glad I didn't start at an hour. I had horrible anxiety over the weekend and yesterday morning but that has subsided some so I'm glad I pushed through.
One thing I notice while I'm in the chamber is improved circulation. I have chronic cold hands and feet. After 10 minutes in the chamber, I feel normal blood flow returning to my extremities. This lasts until the morning so I'm hoping over time, this will be more of a permanent improvement.
Nerve pain and head pressure are my worst symptoms that I'm hoping to hit with the chamber. Time will tell.
Posts: 20 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Jan 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
So glad to see all the new journeys with mHBOT beginning. So thankful for Phoiph. Still planning and saving to get a chamber in my home. I can't wait to see if any of those with horrible brain pressure, anxiety etc get relief.
Thank you all for sharing your stories.
Posts: 219 | From pacific nw | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many thanks to Phoiph for pointing me in the right direction during the purchase process. It was worth the money to have a chamber at home to use.
I've completed 14 dives 1 hour each. The first 3 days I felt more energy and thought wow this is great and then I woke up on day 4 to a herx reaction. It wasn't bad but enough to know something is happening. I did my detox and green juice and was feeling better by 1000. I've had herx reactions each day some a little more than others but nothing terrible.
Benefits I have been logging in my journal - fall asleep quickly -don't wake up stiff in the morning - better circulation in my hands and feet - no migraines -no muscle twitching - less brain fog - no afternoon naps needed - better energy - less joint pain I'm on no medication or supplements, just a balanced diet and green juice. I have 80-100 oz of water a day and I use coffee enemas for my detox.
More updates to come
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey There- Guys and Gals, hope everyone is doing well.
I have been somewhat "MIA"....I had a ton of stuff going on in my personal life which prevented me from doing "Mhbot", on a regular basis.
I did however manage to get "Lots Of Skateboarding In", with my son who is doing AMAZING things. I thought this was pretty cool considering this time last year I had trouble walking and for the most part was homebound(-:
Over the fiscal four months I have been diving without supplemental oxygen on average of only "Two Days A Week"!
Now I'm not suggesting anyone do this as I only did this because I was simply trying to "Maintain", the gains I had made over the fiscal nine months or so.
Here is what I noticed during that time.
I drank a gallon of freshly squeezed orange juice everyday which I like to call "Liquid Sunshine".
For the most part I was 80% RAW and 20% cooked I also consumed allot of "Rice Based Pasta", covered in tomato sauce with basil and onions.
I'm also able to digest most fish fairly easily as well. I did continue to consume caffeine in the morning as I would be totally lost without it.
I continued to wear my high powered energy pendent everyday which I believe does help me increase the Voltage in my body.
I also continued to get plenty of sunshine, and for the most part got rest when I could find a way to get some.
I have since started diving more often and I'm going through some herxes right now however I simply take a day off if I feel it's stressing my body out to much.
Over the fiscal months I was simply in "Maintenance Mode", I'm now trying to move forward and really make some appreciable gains over the next year!
We all have different "Personal Life Situations", which can affect the way we utilize MHBOT.
Some of us have others we care for or who depend on us which makes healing challenging. The herxs can be viscous for no apparent reasons at times, and other times it's simply "Calm Waters And Smooth Sailing".
I have found that within five minutes of using the chamber, I can mitigate my Herxs somewhat by first taking a steaming hot shower followed by "Freezing Cold Water", for two to three minutes!
The Key I have noticed is to end the shower with "Cold Water", which seems to close my pores.
I have read this not only helps strengthen your immune system, but also helps close your pores for those of us who sometimes sweat in the chamber.
I would say I'm 75% percent better, however getting back to 100% or possibly even better "Pre-Lyme", is going to take serious work and discipline on my part.
It's kind of analogous to those who become champion athletes....what separates them from their piers who are either average or just really good.....NOT GREAT?
It's not always just talent alone, or in this case the "Chamber", that's I believe is going to get most there.
There are a number of variables that I believe must be adhered to regularly!
I'm not a doctor I'm just sharing my own personal experiences and observations with MHBOT so it may serve others on their Healing Journey.
Like Phoiph, and other here I believe we are all connected and creatures of a much higher power at work.
If even the smallest amount of my written text, or my words effect someone in a positive light who has either currently suffered or is suffering then I would die a happy man tomorrow(-:
I will try to update regularly moving forward, as I have started diving more regularly once again(-:
Posts: 50 | From San Diego | Registered: Jan 2014
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Several times on this thread questions have been raised regarding the use of additional antioxidant supplements due to possible concern about oxygen free radicals produced by mHBOT.
I had posed this question to my neurologist friend who runs an HBOT clinic, and her response, which I posted earlier in this thread, was:
"...Free radicals are a necessary part of the healing activation that takes place with HBOT. Oxygen radicals interact at a DNA level to modify gene expression: upregulating healing processes and downregulating inflammatory and destructive processes. In a hyperoxic condition, the physiology is different. Oxygen radicals are broken down by enzymes after they have been effective. In hypoxic circumstances oxygen radicals linger and are destructive. There is a research article that I can give you as a reference. [Oxidative stress is fundamental to hyperbaric oxygen therapy. Stephen R. Thom. Journal of Applied Physi9ology 106:988-995, 2009.]..."
Today, I came across this article which gives a great explanation of why free radicals are important and how antioxidants taken in supplement form (rather than synergistically in food) can be overused and defeat their purpose:
posted
I'm here to give an update but I'm doing this the easy way and posting my 3 min videos. I took Phoiph's suggestion before I started and I journal every day all that I do, how I feel and anything better or worse.
This first video is my first day of this mhbot journey.
I will continue to update through videos and post them on YouTube so others can find information on this awesome and natural treatment.
I'm also taking face photos at the end of each month and have seen some positive changes already. Even in the videos I see a big difference.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Wow Peimomma... that is sooooooo awesome. I love those videos!
I wish I had done that, maybe I'll start now.
You and I have the same exact set up, same concentrator also. I also do a minimum of 32 ounces of green juice a day.
Are you still on Cowden or did you stop that? I have been doing Cowden since the beginning of the year.
Phoiph - a couple of technical questions .
Is it okay to take electronics in the chamber? They say it's very dangerous, if there should be a spark it could be flammable. I usually only have my phone in there.
[ 04-18-2015, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Haley ]
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Haley...
In response to your question regarding taking electronics in a soft/home chamber (when pressurized to 1.3 ATA with room air, and used with supplemental oxygen through mask via oxygen concentrator), here is video of experimenters attempting to start a fire in a chamber under the same conditions:
Circumstances are much different, however, when a chamber is pressurized using oxygen vs. room air, or when supplemented with 100% medical grade oxygen as in many clinical settings. In these situations, electronics, newsprint, jewelry, synthetic clothing, etc., are not allowed due to spark/fire risk.
That said, soft/home chamber manufacturers are not likely to outwardly encourage the use of electronics, so one must make their own decision...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
No I haven't been on the Cowden protocol since Jan 2014, that was my 6th month. I was still positive and all my numbers were worse. Cd57 dropped to 6 from 18 and Ca4 went from 11,000 to over 68,000. I don't know if my body was in fight mode because even though my numbers were worse I felt a little better.
So after the 6 month I stopped and was only seeing my acupuncture doctor and taking the herbs he gave me for what he saw in my condition on my tongue and he held my wrist? It was in March 2014 I started a constitutional homeopathic remedy. That's all I did for 2014.
Then I started MHBOT February 2015. I still take my remedy as needed, Chinese herbs for sweating and a liquid vitamin added once the herxing began a few weeks ago. I do my 3 coffee enemas a day and keep on going.
I think I'm doing well because I spent 18 months with no meds in my body and just focused on building my immune system. Over the last week in my journal I've track my herx reaction and know they set in 7-9 hours after my treatment. I choose to treat in the early morning so they start around 1-3 in the afternoon and I can drink plenty of water and do a CE before bed so I sleep well.
Me and hubby bring our cell phones and iPads in the chamber, I've never heard of an issue in the mhbot. They must have been referring to the hard shell chamber.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
And Haley it's never to late to make those videos. It's kind of cool to see how you change, like I'm smiling by the third video. There are days I actually feel like my old self. I forgot to add in my video that to celebrate my 60th dive hubby and I did a 220 mile motorcycle ride to the beach. No pain on the ride day or after just some fatigue from the wind.
And thank you, I'm glad you like them. I hope one day my video will show me going for a run and leaving for my new job...but for now I have a goal of walking a 5k in June.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here's my latest update but plan on a video in the next few days as well.
I have my first medically documented improvement with the treatments.
My eyesight has improved, I still have a slight astigmatism in left eye, but my right eye had no astigmatism any longer. Reading prescription is better too.
The doctor was shocked because he just saw me in mid November 2014 for a new eye script because left eye had deteriorated so much just since April 2014. First eye exam where there was positive changes. 91 treatments in the books and I told him I'd see him in 6 months to see if my eyes continue to improve with the O2 treatments.
I'm walking more each week as I keep track with a Fitbit and can look back each day, week and month to see progress.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Thanks for posting. What is the liquid detox? The one in the brown bottle.
It's so great to hear that you are feeling better.
That's interesting that you know when you have a herx. I will try to pay attention to that. I have no idea when I have a herx.
You may have already explained how your herx feels. What exactly do you experience when herxing?
I'm still experiencing a tremendous amount of fatigue and weakness. I may add the enemas. I do them as needed. 3 a day seems like a lot. Have you tried it without the coffee? Do you notice a difference between coffee enema and no coffee enema?
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's called Whole Body Detox Liquescence. Not to be taken near coffee, mint or any strong food. Should not consume food for at least 30 min if possible.
For me I start to feel nauseated first, then my head feels full and the brain fog sets in again. It's hard to think and find words. I might have some pain and fatigue if it's really bad. Yesterday I was really fatigued because I had done 3 days of 2 dives this week and knew I hit the wall when I felt it coming on in the morning after the 3rd day.
I have been feeling well on two separate occasions and thought I would skip an enema and sure enough it made a difference. That's why I like to journal because it reminds me of the good and bad, what works and what doesn't make a diff so I can stop if needed.
It does take time to commit to them but I have to say it is the main reason for me that I can do daily dives and sometimes 2 per day.
The detox mentioned above has really helped the aching in my armpits, but have to do it 2 times per day to clear my system.
I didn't mention in the video that if I do to much my body does fatigue because it will take time to build my stamina and endurance back from the years of illness. But to much to me is walking 3 miles, cleaning the house and going to a social event in one day.
Today I walked 1.5 miles, road motorcycle for an hour and went to a friends BBQ and I'm doing really well still. We plan on a 200 mile ride tomorrow.
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hiya diving crew! Good reporting PEImomma- glad you are seeing such great improvements!
I am here to report that I have reached 420 hours of mhbot. I continue to slowly but surely see improvements. I have less symptoms and the symptoms I have are less severe. I have improvements in mood, energy, passion for life, exercise tolerance, neuro symptoms, pain and PMS.
My changes have been very slow, very up/down and very hard-earned. I am sure some things I have continued to do (work fromhome, travel when necessary, not say no enough, etc) have hindered my progress but they are all part of my learning and journey! Being on a gut healing diet -GAPS- has been key.
Other good news is that my hubby who was also using hbot for lyme is now feeling great. He is not currently diving because he feels so good. His LLMD said his next step was IV and we have completely avoided that with diet, exercise, hbot and herbs. He is another one that pushes himself too hard- I am always on him to rest and try to slow down.
So thats it for now. Will post again at the next milestone. Best wishes to all.
Posts: 233 | From Hudson Valley | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
up - fantastic!
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
I have a question on exercise.
I looked back through some of the posts and saw that Phoiph didn't exercise for a year, BUT she says that she did Yoga regularly. Phoiph, How often did you do Yoga?
I am doing better, but still have lots of fatigue and weakness. I'd like to work some exercise in, but don't know if I have the strength to even do Yoga.
I can see that Peimomma is kicking butt with exercise.
What about others here, what are you doing for exercise?
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Haley...
I hadn't been able to exercise for the last 7 out of 8 years of my illness (although I had done yoga for several years and been a runner for 17 years pre-Lyme).
To answer your question, I looked over my log, and determined that I started gentle yoga (2x per week) about 4 months after I began mHBOT.
I recall having the sensation that I had, in many ways, become disassociated from my body in an attempt to cope with the constant pain and bizarre sensations, and yoga was instrumental in helping me reconnect with my body.
At about 6 months, I started walking regularly. I also tried to do as much yard work, etc., as I could, although at that time, it was still a huge challenge. I was very motivated to be outside, however, after being homebound for over 5 years.
I think it is very important not to overdo it, especially with aerobic exercise before you are ready. Your body has a lot of healing to do, and it requires energy and rest.
It is important to improve breathing, circulation, energy and lymph flow, however, and gentle yoga is a great way to start.
With yoga, there is no competition or judgment; you only do what you can on that day, in that moment. The benefits are amazing.
My recovery was based on 3 basic elements: daily mHBOT, nutrition, and gentle movement/exercise. I don't believe I would have become well if any one of those elements had been missing from my protocol...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Thanks Phoiph.
I'm going to challenge myself to do a bit of exercise.
Not sure why I am so weak and fatigued.
I know that it is important for the lymph system to move this junk out of the body.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...
What does your (entire) protocol look like (i.e., what are you doing/taking in addition to mHBOT, and what is your mHBOT schedule)?
Also, diet, water intake, etc.
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
I drink 2 or 3, 33oz. bottles of Kangen water a day (usually 9.0 ph).
My diet is primarily Paleo, I eat 3 moderate meals a day. I was also doing 32 oz. of green juice (which is 3 cups of water blended with raw fruits and vegetables) a day, but I'm cutting back on the green juice. No sugar.
I am doing the Cowden protocol, so I am taking some herbs, but I had this fatigue and weakness before starting those herbs.
I don't take too many supplements these days other than Magnesium, I'd like to start iodine, but am waiting on test results.
I know that it is vitally important to have the lymph system moving, but I don't want to be to exhausted to work, I still have to work even though I work from home some days.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...thanks...what is your mHBOT schedule?
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
I do 1 hour a day with supplemental oxygen, but I have been taking off one day a week for the past 2 to 3 months.
Any tips would be appreciated Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...
Just some thoughts...
1. About the water...I am concerned that the higher alkaline PH over time could cause issues.
It can raise the alkalinity of your stomach, which may reduce the acidity enough to impair digestion/absorption of nutrients (especially protein) properly, and may cause deficiencies (including mineral) over time. Lower stomach acidity can also provide an avenue for pathogens to enter, and cause imbalances in good bacteria. I have also read that it can be harder on the adrenals.
I know there's a lot of controversy over the water issue, but the stomach PH is definitely concern, because it involves absorption.
2. I agree with your decision to reduce the (raw) green juice for now...and it may be beneficial to replace it with cooked vegetables instead.
3. Some people on a paleo-ish diet need to add some (healthy) carbs from time to time for energy...like quinoa, for example. (It is best not to combine starchy carbs and proteins in the same meal, however.)
4. Have you tried doing your mHBOT sessions before bedtime? Since it raises your cellular metabolism, it can be a little like exercise to the body, which causes some people to feel sleepy afterward. Others can find it stimulating though, so it varies among individuals.
5. If you do start exercise, I would do yoga, not aerobic at this point.
6. How is your thyroid function?
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is anyone here doing HBOT *with* a PICC or Port and IV meds? If so, I'd love to hear more about your experience and if the dual approach sped up the recovery process at all (and what meds, etc., you were doing by IV). Thanks!
Posts: 13 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Thank you so much for your reply Phoiph, it's so helpful to have some guidance through this process as there really is no one to go to.
Yes, I could cut back on the 9.0 and the green juice, I understand the concern. I only drink it between meals, but I understand what you are saying. Some people drink 2.5 with their meal and the more alkaline on an empty stomach. But I'll stick to clean water. (just trying to get my $5000 worth from that machine )
I can't eat Quinoa, but could look at some other carbs. My body just doesn't like Quinoa. I think I overdosed on it when I did a Vegan diet.
I usually do my mHBOT in the evening after work. I am going to try some yoga classes.
I just had a ton of tests run by an endocrinologist, I see her on Friday to get the results. She should be able to tell me if my thyroid is off.
FromTickToPicc - I had a port in my chest while doing mHBOT, but just recently had it removed. I have not done any IVs while using my chamber other than Heparin. You should give it a try. IVs took me from my death bed, others here don't think pharmaceuticals are useful.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Haley, it's actually great to hear about your port and doing mHBOT with it, as I just got a PICC so am a newbie with infusing meds, and I actually did a single session of super mild HBOT since getting the PICC but want to do more in a more organized way, so I'm trying to find out how to make that possible. I think for me if I can manage the herx I want to combine the two as much as I can. Are you doing heparin for babesia?
Posts: 13 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Haley...
Hopefully your endocrinologist is integrative-oriented and performed the more in-depth testing for thyroid, etc., as many don't...
Also, as you probably know, some give wide latitude for interpretation as to what is within "normal" range.
Good to know that you can always have a second opinion/interpretation on the results from a naturopath or integrative medicine doc., etc., if you still have questions.
Also...could you clarify your comments to TickToPick for me...are you saying you had your port in while doing mHBOT (recently removed), but didn't infuse anything but heparin during that time?
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Hi Phoiph,
I believe this doc does take a holistic approach and knows which tests to take, this is her website http://www.centerforhormonalhealth.com. Would you remind me which are the best tests for thyroid? I see her on Friday to discuss the results.
Do you take thyroid medication?
I have had a port for a long time. The Heparin was used to clear my line once a month, I was not using any IV meds while in the chamber. In fact I have not used IV meds for a while. I considered doing one last round of something like IV Artemesia before pulling my port. I was apprehensive to have it pulled because I am not well yet, at the same time I thought it may be hindering my achieving wellness because it is a foreign object in my body.
TickToPick - I did consider doing the Heparin for babesia, but didn't know if it was a good idea with the mHBOT. I didn't want to get an embolism (although nothing really phases me these days Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Thanks, Haley...that is what I thought you had been doing.
I was concerned that FromTicktoPick may have misunderstood you to be doing IV infusions and mHBOT simultaneously, so wanted to clarify.
I looked at your doctor's website...impressive! You are fortunate to have found an integrative endocrinologist! It looks like you are in great hands.
There are 6 main thyroid tests: TSH, T3, T4, Free T3, Free T4, 2 antibody tests, and Reverse T3. There are also nutritional deficiency tests that can be done. Adrenal function should also be considered.
Many non-integrative docs will just do the TSH, but it doesn't always reveal "subclinical" thyroid issues, so many are missed.
To answer your question, I am not on any medications. I was on T3 for a few years early on in my illness, but had stopped it (along with all therapies(except for homeopathy), meds and supplements) about 5 years before starting mHBOT. Although I still had symptoms of hypothyroid, I had become very reactive to all medications at that time. I have no symptoms now.
Just something to be aware of...mHBOT can potentiate the action of certain thyroid meds. Some people have been able to reduce or go off of their thyroid meds once they have done mHBOT for awhile.
posted
Thanks for that clarification, Haley, I get it now : )
Do you think an embolism would be a concern if one is using heparin flushes twice daily with a PICC (which is standard) while infusing? I hadn't even thought about that risk. I know with a port you likely weren't using it much if it was just for flushing and you weren't on meds then.
Posts: 13 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also, Haley, I'm really curious where one gets IV artimesia. I read about Dr. Z. (Lyme TCM guy) using IV garlic (in a purified, liquified form I assume) but my understanding was it was nearly impossible to obtain in the US.
Posts: 13 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Hi Ticktopick. You should really ask your doctor about the heparin and embolism. Many people have done IVs along with HBOT, so I don't think it would be a problem. It came to my mind because of some of my symptoms. I have had times that I felt I was having a stroke, so I felt that the heparin would not help that.
IV Artemesia is very rare. I heard that there was a place in Los Angeles that carried it, but I had my port pulled and never looked into it. I first heard about IV Artemesia at a medical conference. It's usually used to treat Malaria.
Are you using a hyperbaric chamber?
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes I just started using a home chamber, along with my PICC/IV meds, but I have not worked up to much time or full pressure yet, so trying to figure some details out first.
I actually did find some sites in China years ago from where one could import IV/injectible herbs (I wanted to inject), including things like houttuynia (for bartonella) and prob. artemesia, but it didn't seem safe to do . I think if one had a safe source, though, it might be possible to import -- like you, I didn't pursue it all the way and just stopped then.
Posts: 13 | From CT | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged |
I just finished reading this thread from beginning to end. PHEW! It took a few days.
I have had Lyme for 8 years. I wasn't accurately diagnosed until 6 years into it.
So for the past 2 years I have been trying various of Lyme treatments including oral abx, cowden protocol, and most recent Zhang protocol which I am still on.
I have not made any real gains while treating Lyme but I have seems to stop getting worse which is a wonderful thing. I would describe myself at 30% of what I should be with ups and downs.
So a couple months ago a friend of mine was at his chiropractors office and asked the doctor what that chamber was. Turns out the doctor had chronic Lyme and treated himself with the mhbot.
He also has treated about a dozen others with Lyme. Everyone has seen noticeable gains from this treatment except for one person who would commit to healthy eating etc.
So with such encouraging odds I decided to buy a chamber and I am now on my 12 dive.
I have noticed with each dive I am extremely tired afterward. Also by dive 5 I started to feel exceptionally poor and began to feel that it was a herx although it was more gradual and different then the herxing I have experienced with abx.
Anyways I just thought I would introduce myself and let you know my story.
I appreciate all that have chimed in and offered info about this subject. Although I didn't find this until after I began diving it had been useful seeing how others are doing on this. And a special thanks to Phioph for taking the extra time and effort to help lead the way.
Monti
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
I've just read this topic about mbot and lyme disease. First of all thank you all for your willingness to share your experiences with others. I'm interested myself in trying the mhbot therapy. I'm diagnosed with lyme and Bartonella, having symptoms for more then 10 years now. I've improved signifcantly in the last 2 years with the samento/banderol/cumunda protocol. But i'm still far from recovered. Maybe adding mhot can speed things up.
I hope someone can help me with the following question.
If i understand correctly, an oxygen concentrator with mask should be used. How exactly do you connect an oxygenconcentrator with mask to the chamber? Is it strong enough to blow against the pressure? Doesn't it create some kind of leak? It's hard to find proper technical information on the net about this. I've looked at some Oxyhealth models but there doens't seem to be some kind of specific connection in the chamber for this.
Many many thanks in advance.
Greets
Legolas
PS: Phoiph, your inbox is full.
Posts: 6 | From Belgium | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Monti...
Welcome...I just replied to your PM...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Hi Legolas...
Thanks, I just emptied some PM messages.
Regarding the oxygen concentrator hook up...
A home chamber must be sold separately from an oxygen concentrator in the US (FDA Regulations), otherwise, the combination would place it in a different medical class.
This is why you likely won't see instructions on the internet on a manufacturer's website as to how to hook the two together.
That said, the FDA doesn't regulate how doctors prescribe or use equipment, and many doctors prescribe the use of both the chamber and oxygen concentrator together. This is perfectly legal, providing one has a prescription to purchase both units (separately).
To answer your question, you must purchase an oxygen concentrator that has enough PSI (pounds per square inch of pressure; the one I recommend has 20 PSI) to counteract the backpressure from the chamber. Then you must be sure to set the LPM's (liter's per minute) correctly (this differs a little between models).
There is a port on the chamber which the tubing from the concentrator slides through, and a mask is attached to the tubing on the inside of the chamber. There is a hook-up kit available with some simple hardware for this purpose.
Even though you are in Europe, if you decide to buy a new or used chamber, you can take advantage of the discount through the "Free Radical's Hyperbaric Project" I have been working on. If you're interested, you can PM me, and I will send you more information.
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi All, thought I would give a little update as things change every few weeks. I just finished dive 130 today but I don't plan a video until the first week of June as I would like to report on an Alaska trip I have planned and a 5k walk.
Mbdq, thank you for your update. This seems like such a lonely journey when you are in the beginning so it's nice to have others post that are further in the process and feeling well.
Haley, I can't believe you are working....that's great. How do you fit it all in your schedule? haha
After my last video I had two weeks of steady herxing so I adjusted a few things. I've gone down to one coffee enema a day because it seems my body is doing a fine job of detoxing on it's own finally. I don't have a full or toxic feeling any longer. I've also started walking more to get a little sweat going. My goal this last week is 10,000 steps a day M-F and rest on the weekend.
I walked more than 10,000 steps all of last week, and then road motorcycle with hubby over 350 miles this weekend. I'm feeling great today and already have 9,000 steps by noon today. No joint pain or fatigue.....YIPPEEEEEE
I plan to add a light yoga in this week for some stretching and strengthening.
The lows are a bit hard to get through but totally worth getting to the other side and feeling a little better than before the herxing.
Welcome to all the new mHbot'ers. I look forward to reading as you post your progress. Would love to see some videos...lol
Posts: 233 | From AZ | Registered: Jan 2015
| IP: Logged |
On dive 13 as we speak. So far it seemed that around dive 5 I started herxing.
Symptoms were light sensitivity, extremely tired, weak, dislzzy. Oh and brain fog.
Around dive 10 it began letting up and thought I was over the hump. Yesterday I discovered my 02line was loose and had been getting looser and looser the past few days.
So now I am back on a good flow of 02 and find myself wondering if the dreaded herx will return. I have a feeling it wasn't done with me and the lack of pure 02 stopped it early.
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Monti...
I always suggest that people who have Lyme and/or toxicity start very, very slowly, and work up to the full hour under pressure (1.3ATA/4.2PSI) with 02 daily.
For example, in your case, if you are already up to full pressure, you could do 20 minutes at full pressure for a week to 10 days, then, if you are doing OK, add 20 more minutes for another week, then the final 20 minutes. Some (many) people will need to go more slowly.
Although it is definitely a 2 step forward, 1 step back process of peeling layers, I don't feel that strong Herxheimer reactions are particularly good for the body.
In my opinion, it shows we are trying to rush things more quickly than the body can handle, and it is showing signs of "overwhelm". This sets up a stressful, rather than a healing situation....
What is your protocol (i.e., frequency, pressure, time, LPM,), and what kind of equipment are you using?
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
I bought a used summit to sea "dive" (28") and it came with a OG15 concentrator. I got a great buy on it for $6,000 and it was only lightly used. The concentrator isn't what I would have chosen but it came with the deal. It is rated for 12 psi at 7lpm. It seems to push plenty of 02 into the pressurized chamber.
What I have been doing was an hour a day with 02 seven days a week. I am more then willing to cut it back some if you feel it might be easier on my system. The herx I dealt with was really rough.
I would rather go slower and build up (avoiding some of the extreme fatigue etc) if it didn't take anything away from the end result.
I eat very healthy. Whole foods, organic, no sugar or grains. I do eat some dairy though.
I have done very little abx. I was on cowden for a year and then switched to Zhang for the last 6 months.
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Monti...
In my opinion, it would be better to start more slowly, as I mentioned, and work up to the full hour (at full pressure w/O2 daily) over a period of time (consistency is key!).
If anything, it will make the process go a little more smoothly, and you will still benefit from the treatment as you work up.
Also remember to increase your water intake to stay hydrated.
This treatment is very powerful, and often underestimated!
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
So at this point since I've done about 13 dives at 1 full hour with 02 should I cut back to something like 30minutes each day? And do that for a week and see how I feel? Or two weeks?
Thank you!!
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Monti...
In your case, since you are already up to full pressure, you could do 20 minutes at full pressure with 02 daily for a week to 10 days. Then, if you are doing OK, add 20 more minutes for another week to 10 days, then the final 20 minutes.
This way, you are working up to the full hour over the course of about a month. You can go more slowly if necessary (some people need to go much more slowly than this, some don't), while working toward the goal of the full hour under pressure with 02 daily.
Remember that you are still benefitting while working up...and you can tweak your protocol during this period if you need to, but once you are at the full hour, try to remain as consistent as possible...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
I will do that starting tomorrow Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Welcome Monti. That is great to hear about the Chiropractor with the 12 patients!
So great to see all of the feedback here.
CD57 - how is the diving going?
Peimomma - you go girl!
Phoiph - I didn't even know that the concentrator had a PSI, I have no idea what mine is, but i think it is a good concentrator. It's 10 LPM.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...
If I recall, you have an AirSep New Life Intensity 10....is that right?
If so, it is 20PSI, and you should have it set to 8.5 LPM, and leave it there...turning an AirSep too high when used with a chamber will put it into an oxygen-on-demand mode, which you don't want for our purposes.
It is a great concentrator.
Check and see and let me know...because if it is a different manufacturer, you may need to set it differently...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Haley
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22008
posted
Yes Phoiph that is the concentrator I have, which is set at 8.5. What is oxygen on demand? Also do I need to clean the filter? I've checked it, it looks perfectly clean so I don't mess with it.
Posts: 2232 | From USA | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
You have said once I hit an hour a day I would want to be consistent. I do have one concern about that. We are going away for a week in July and I won't be able to bring my mhbot with me. Is that going to be a problem?
Or is the "consistency" that you spoke of more about doing this for a long time aka years. I do plan on doing this long term.
And by the way I really liked what you said about starting slow and not putting your body under stress by hitting it hard at first. That makes a lot of sense especially with this type of treatment. It's about healing.
Oh and one other question. Is it that mhbot can make you dehydrated or is it that it's important to stay hydrated to help flush toxins?
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
One last general question. I am new to lymenet and haven't yet figured out how to be notified when someone makes a post on this thread. Can that be done?
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi all! I keep having trouble logging in to this forum, it says it has to do with my IP!
Welcome new divers, Monti, Nitsuj1225, FromTickToPicc, nice to read your posts! Please do take it a bit slow and steady… Lots of info is in the book The Oxygen Revolution, it’s mainly about hbot, but also a bit about mhbot, it has been a great help to me.
Peimomma, very nice to read your updates and see your videos! Mbdq, Looking4hope, Haley, thanks very much for your posts and updates! Phoiph, thanks for helping out! Monti, a break for a week is no problem, just enjoy your holiday! You can get notification emails when you post a reply and scroll down and check options: email notification.
Legolas, I read you live in Belgium, maybe this is of some help: There’s e.g. an online store in The Hague in The Netherlands that sells the 10L Oxygenconcentrator. The Summit to Sea chambers are possible to be partly shipped to you from France instead of from the USA, that will save you much money in shipping costs, custom duties and taxes instead of importing one such as Oxyhealth from USA to Europe. There’s a nurse in Germany that can help with that. http://www.ueberdrucktherapie.de/index.php/shallow-dive.html
Phoiph, this nurse would love to have your email-adress and get in contact to share success stories and in case someone asks her about Lyme disease and mhbot she can direct them to you. If you like, can you contact her through her website?
Next comes my update…
Posts: 16 | From Europe | Registered: Jun 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
My update.. I’m still reading along in this threat and still diving, for about 10 months now! I use a Summit to Sea ‘Shallow Dive’. With a 10L Intensity Oxygenconcentrator. I’m on 100-120 hours. One hour a day seemed to be too much for me, that’s why I do 30 minutes a day, 6 days a week. To me for now that seems perfect. On the day off I use lots of anti-oxidants.
I had a 6-week break, due to a stomach infection. I still don’t know exactly what it was and I don’t know if it was promoted by mhbot.
I have improvements… they are small, but to me they are very big because I was more dead then alive when I started. (I wrote a few posts on page 7 and 8) I’m very happy with my chamber, it gives me much support!
1. I have no more migraines at all, except I had one on my 6-week break, 2. My blood flow is better I feel a bit warmer and a bit less dark circles under my eyes, 3. Pain and restlessness in my legs is a bit less, 4. I feel less 'toxicated', 5. Energy and strength a little bit better (but still bed ridden), maybe because of improved mitochondria, 6. My bowel-function is a bit better and 7. The mhbot together with cholestyramine has given me a little bit improvement in MCS-symptoms.
I’ve added abx now, I couldn’t tolerate it before, but now I seem to do so and I have some little improvements from it. I had tried herbal protocols with minimal results.
Thank you contributors on the internet for sharing experiences! Wishing you all very much progress and health!! Good luck and keep breathing!
Survivorgirl1
P.S. I don’t know when I can update again because of trouble getting logged in to the site. Please webmaster if you read this reply my email.
Posts: 16 | From Europe | Registered: Jun 2014
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Haley...
Oxygen-on-demand is an "intermittent", or "pulse-dose" mode the concentrator goes into when it is set very high to conserve oxygen...it senses when the person is inhaling and sends oxygen at this time rather than continually.
Setting the AirSep model at 10 when using it with a chamber (since it has to compensate for the backflow pressure of the chamber) will put it into this mode. This is why we set it at 8.5.
Different models, like the Sequal Integra, however,doesn't have this function, so that model should be set at 10LPM. The meter will drop to around 8.5 as the chamber inflates and the backpressure causes it to work harder. The LPM dial should not be reset at that time, just left as is. It will bounce back to 10 as the chamber deflates.
Survivorgirl...I will certainly contact the nurse and give her my website (still under construction) address and email (she can contact me through the website also). Thanks for making that connection!
Also, thanks for the great information about options for obtaining a chamber in Europe. My advice to Legolas would be to compare costs WITH discount included via Oxyhealth just to be sure before making a decision (Legolas can PM me for info.), as the discount may be enough to offset costs. There are also differences in the 2 manufacturers to consider...
I will PM a moderator to let them know you're having trouble logging on...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Monti...
Drinking more water helps you flush out toxins, although oxygen can also be a little drying to your nasal passages and throat.
About your week vacation in July...I am very conservative about taking time off, especially in the first year, but since you already have this vacation planned, I would just enjoy your trip, and get right back to your mHBOT as soon as you return.
Sometimes travel can't be avoided, but an option in the future might be to take your chamber with you (without the frame, mattress, & bolsters) if traveling via car. Always make sure the concentrator travels upright, and is cushioned well...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
Survivorgirl1... Thanks for the welcome and info. I guess I needed to use the "full reply" instead of the quick reply to see the email option.
Interesting that the one headache you had was during your break from the treatment.
Phoiph... Thank you again for the help. Upon my return after a week off should I resume my dives at the same level I had been doing prior to leaving or should I build myself back up again?
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
Phoiph
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 41238
posted
Monti...
By that time, you will be up to full pressure/time, and should be able to resume at the same level...
Posts: 1883 | From Earth | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged |
One more question for ya. I think I saw a post where you said to have the 02 mask on as you are pressurizing. I'm not able to do that and still equalize my ears since I need to pinch my nose and blow. How important is it to do this?
Posts: 120 | From Maine | Registered: May 2015
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic