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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » dealing with HBOT herx

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Author Topic: dealing with HBOT herx
WPinVA
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I started HBOT this morning and the rest of the day I felt tired, achey, bottoms of feet hurt. I took a nap.

I'm assuming it's a herx? Should I deal with this by my usual methods of detoxing (sauna, yoga, dry brushing, water, epsom salt baths)?

These are the things that I usually do for detox for abx herxes but am wondering if detoxing is also good for HBOT herxes, or should I just rest instead? (I don't detox very well, have markers of biotoxin illness and also have some MTHFR mutations if that matters).

thanks!

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canadianmama
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My son had a herx like reaction from mHOT sessions after his 6th dive.

We chose to take a couple of days off and did our regular detox stuff, DE, activated charcoal, chorella, epsom salt baths.

I chose to do it this way as I'm sure of these methods of detox for my son and he has detox problems. I couldn't risk pushing on with the mHBOT not knowing if he would get more or less toxic from it.

He has gotten too toxic before and it really set him back. After a few days we went back to the dives and he hasn't had another herx reaction.

Not sure what you should do. It's been said that HBOT is a great detox in itself.

All the best.

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Phoiph
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WPinVA...

At what pressure are you "diving", and how many minutes per session, and how many sessions per week?

In my opinion/experience, the chamber is very good at assisting detoxification pathways...and I would suggest just doing the chamber without the other major detox therapies for awhile (like sauna). Too much detoxification too quickly can overwhelm the body.

Be sure drink lots of filtered water with minerals added, and include some gentle movement/exercise to help move lymph if possible. In addition, you mentioned Yoga...which is great.

Diet is very important as well...clean, whole foods, good fats...no processed foods, no microwaved foods...

Also, lots of rest, like you mentioned...

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WPinVA
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How does HBOT assist with detoxification pathways?
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Phoiph
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Detoxification begins at the cellular level.

One of the most important ways HBOT helps with detox, is by increasing the efficiency of metabolism at a cellular level. Cells that are functioning optimally ("energized") are be able to move nutrients in, and toxins out of the body more effectively.

It also improves circulation and nutrient delivery to damaged tissues allowing toxins to be transported out of the body more efficiently, while supporting the main organs of detoxification (i.e., liver, kidneys, GI, skin), and releasing stem cell for repair...

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mbdq
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I basically started herxing right away with mild HBOT. Increase in symptoms, some new ones, fatigue, burning nerve pain, etc.

I would caution you against combining the HBOT with sauna. I tried this several times, but ended up overdoing in and really getting myself into a scary place. Took me a few weeks to get back to where I was.

I also seem to have trouble detoxing.

Keep us posted on your progress!

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WPinVA
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How does HBOT assist with detoxification pathways?
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Phoiph
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WPinVA...

Please look 2 posts up...I posted an answer to your question...

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WPinVA
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That is odd - I don't know why that repeat post showed up. Although I am spacey, I'm not THAT spacey. ; )

Thanks to all who responded! I am going pretty slow with other forms of detox, as you all recommended. I've only been to the sauna once and that was on a day when I didn't do a dive.

I can tell the HBOT is doing *something* as I come out sweating (maybe tmi but it's yucky, stinky sweat like I used to get back during my early days treating Lyme and co). So maybe that's from detoxing?

Also, I do have what is probably a herx with increased fatigue and the resurgence of some symptoms that I haven't seen much of in a while -- air hunger, night sweats, pain on bottom of feet, achey, etc.

The weirdest and scariest thing was during yesterday's session, I had a pretty significant heart palpitation and then felt lightheaded. I had to take an oxygen break with the mask even though I was only at 1.5 ATA. That helped and I was able to stay in.

I think the issue was that I hadn't taken my thermatab yesterday (which I take for dysautonomia) so my blood pressure was pretty low going in. I took it today before my session, my BP was better and I and didn't have any issues.

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oxygenbabe
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Mhbot doesn't go to 1.5 ata...you have a hard chamber?
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WPinVA
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Yes, it's HBOT not mHBOT. It's a hard chamber at a clinic.
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oxygenbabe
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1.5 is not so low. You're breathing 100% oxygen at a high flow rate at the equivalent of, I think, 25 feet under water--a significant amount of pressure. A *lot* of oxygen is going into the tissues. I do not think 2.4 is proven necessary. If I had it to do over again I'd do it at 1.5-1.75.
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Nancy L
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I am starting HBOT (have done a couple of sessions at 1.5 already).

My detox is chlorella, 5 tabs once or twice a day. It binds with toxins released from cells/kill-off of bacteria and heavy metals, and then they are excreted instead of recirculating through the liver system, so I read.

Anyway, chlorella is a food, and I am sensitive to drugs and some herbs, and it causes me no problems whatsoever. I take it after HBOT and also after taking herbals like cat's claw and japanese knotweed, and have had no hertzes so far.

Although I had a bad headache a few days after my initial 2 sessions, but took chlorella today and my headache went away after a few hours. Not sure it was related.

The HBOT clinic said patients often experience hertzes after the 5th or 6th session, but think they said not afterwards with their lyme patients so far.

Has anyone else other then WPinVA had other hertz experiences or timing with HBOT?

The rest of my HBOT sessions will be at 1.8ATA, 5 out of 7days/week for 25-30sessions. Sort of a test to see how well the HBOT works for me.

The clinic is in Charlotte NC area and has recently gone non-profit with a sliding scale for payments (necessary for me to afford it).

I read "The Oxygen Revolution" by Dr. Harch before signing up, and while he recommends 1.5-1.75ATA for all but acute/recent injuries, strokes, and diabetic wounds (and those much higher), he also had not done a lot of HBOT on lyme patients as of 2010(date of updated book).

His lower ATA recommendations for older & chronic conditions (except wound care), come from long experience and Dr. Neubauer's(dead recently), but they do not address the kill-off of Bb by HBOT which may be at a higher ATA (more than 1ATA but maybe less than the 2.4ATA Fife study).

I am hoping 1.8 will do the trick for Bb kill-off. Will report back at the end of February.

Love to hear back on other's experiences with HBOT before I start the 25-30 sessions at the end of Jan.

Happy New Year y'all!

Nancy

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JCarlhelp
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My wife started HBOT today, will do 20 dives at 2.4 ATA while on pick line antibiotics. Will also be doing I.V Glutathione 3 times per week. This is what her doctor prescribed. A close friend of mine finished a protocol in a hard chamber about 2 months ago 20 dives, starting at 2.0 then up to 2.5 ATA. She also did glutathione. I don't know what the answer is but having my wife do HBOT and I will return to MBOT after I get back from this treatment with my wife. I am now really curious if I.V glutathione pushes combined with antibiotics is meaningful. My wife did hardshell back in the late 90's with a lot of success but not a cure albeit she was re-biten. Lots to look at over the next few months. Hope 2014 finds all of us with major breakthrough.
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WPinVA
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I am finding it really helpful to read others' experiences with this. I really appreciate the feedback.

I went up to 2.0 today for the first time.

Pretty ok but did feel a little lightheaded towards the end, which resolved with an oxygen break.

The tech that I had today was excellent. She worked in a an HBOT in a hospital for 4 years, then has been here at this clinic - which predominantly treats Lymies - for one year.

She said that she notices that Lyme patients are much more sensitive to the effects of HBOT than the patients with the "on label" conditions. She said that some people had such bad herxes that they had to stop.

I am aware of the controversy between mHBOT and HBOT. My doc believes that lower pressures may be helpful for some conditions but that 2.4 is needed to kill the Lyme bacteria.

My plan is to try to get up to 2.4 per his rec. If I can handle it, great. If I can't, then I'll probably try to continue at the lower pressures. I just read an article about mild hbot being beneficial to biotoxin illness, and I do have those markers.

For those who have done HBOT in a hard chamber, how many dives did you need to do to get results? I have signed up for 20, and he said I may need 20 more after that.

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Phoiph
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Many doctors and HBOT clinicians base their treatment protocols for Borrelia on a study in 1993 by Austin, which demonstrated that the lethal level of oxygen for a spirochete was somewhere between 30mm Hg and 160mm Hg.

They estimated that HBOT at 2.36ATA while breathing 100% O2 would raise the tissue 02 tissue levels to between 200mm Hg and 300mm...WELL above the range necessary to kill Borrelia.

This information was later used in a study with human subjects by Fife in 1998.

Unfortunately, the study didn't include research on what the lowest effective range was, and so this level continued to be used over time for treating Lyme disease, in spite of treatment failures and drop-out rates.

There are several problems and risks with higher pressures for Lyme disease and other neurological conditions. Some of these greater risk of oxygen toxicity, visual changes, and releasing of toxins more quickly than the body can handle.

In addition, the oxidation rate may become faster than the body's ability to generate antioxidants to compensate, causing oxidative stress. Of more concern is recent research the indicates the possibility of regression with some neurological diseases when higher pressures are used.

Another consideration is that Lyme disease is different than the infections that many clinicians are used to treating, considering its reproductive rate and ability to morph into protective forms, requiring, in my opinion, long term treatment to avoid relapse, which is cost prohibitive in a clinical setting for many people.

One of the biggest benefits that people who do short term treatment miss out on, in my opinion, is the healing process that is offered by long term mHBOT treatments. This is not just about "killing the bugs", but about bringing balance to the body and supplying it with what it requires to repair and restore itself to full health...

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oxygenbabe
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The problem with 20 or 40 high pressure dives is the likelihood you'll relapse over time.

The best option would be to do 20 to 40 high pressure dives (though I'd keep at 2.0 or under, because of the obvious oxygen toxicity to the lens, demonstrated and in the peer review literature, which implies there is also oxygen toxicity to other tissues, but anyway...), and then to switch to mhbot at home. Having knocked back the spirochetes with high pressure, you can probably keep them somewhat at bay by continuing low pressure, and not even necessarily every day. You could start with 5 days a week, for instance, and then switch to 3 and see how you do.

I do not think there's *any* indication whether or not mhbot daily for months and years is safe, though. I mean, for copd even, you're told to use 2-4 liters per minute. With a 10 lpm concentrator, at 1.25 or 1.3 ata in an mhbot, you *are* putting a lot of extra oxygen into the body. I suppose it would be like scuba diving every day for at least an hour, at 70 feet (I did some calculations at one point, and the nitrox at 70 feet is about the same as the mhbot at 11 or 12 feet).

You just don't know. Less is more.

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WPinVA
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I'm open to doing mHBOT after this (assuming I could swing it financially). I'm also wondering if any progress made in the hard chamber could be sustained with other measures such as sauna, exercise, etc.
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Phoiph
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Hi WPinVA...

In my experience, although a nerve/gut healing diet and increasing activity are crucial to recovery, they will not take the place of ongoing mHBOT treatments to treat Lyme.

A commitment to all 3 were necessary for recovery, in my case...

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oxygenbabe
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Phoiph, your experience is an N of 1, and I am bothered by you generalizing. I'm glad to hear when anybody gets better, by any means, but you are very unusual.

WPinVA,can't promise mhbot can stop a relapse, but I know the two times I did hardchamber, it really was quite effective, but I slowly relapsed. And studies back it up, as I mentioned, the ketes do recrudesce. Some people who did longterm antibiotics AND hbot (such as wildcondor) feel the hbot (she likes only a monochamber pressurized with oxygen) were really helpful--the hbot giving the final knock em dead on top of all the antibiotics.

Everybody is individual of course, but since you can't continue hardchamber indefinitely (unless you're wealthy enough to buy your own and train someone to operate it, along with fireproofing the room in its in and getting a regular delivery of oxygen tanks etc)...at least mhbot may be helpful in keeping the terrain somewhat inhospitable...yes, sauna is good, too. You might also consider herbs. It's all individual. It's a great adjunctive therapy either way. Keep your eyes closed--it's not worth pushing that much 02 into the lens...even if your eye seems to handle it.

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JCarlhelp
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We are hoping HBOT followed by MBOT will really help along with the fact my wife is on IV Zithroxax and Clindomycine. She is feeling pretty sickly so IV Glutathione and Alkaseltzer Gold arrive tomorrow.
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Phoiph
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"Phoiph, your experience is an N of 1, and I am bothered by you generalizing. I'm glad to hear when anybody gets better, by any means, but you are very unusual."

WPinVA...

I believe I prefaced my response to you with "In my experience", and ended it with "In my case", so am not "generalizing", or making a claim that anyone will have the same results with mHBOT.

Mainly, however, I believe success/failure is highly related to the mHBOT protocol.

All of the people I have queried who have not been successful with HBOT or mHBOT, have inevitably not done treatments as frequently, consistently, or as long term as I have. So, in this respect, I may be considered a "N of 1" or "very unusual", as stated.

I believe that I have had such great success with mHBOT because of the commitment to doing it daily and long-term...as I have mentioned before, I didn't take even one day off for over 1 year...and at that time it was just for a few day vacation.

The 2 other crucial components for me were/are a very clean diet and increasing exercise.

There have been periods (after 1 year of mHBOT treatment) where I have been without my chamber for over 5 weeks (due to a repair issue), and several 2+ week travel vacations, without a hint of regression or relapse. Does this prove that I would never relapse? No...but it is more than can be said for many people who quit short term HBOT, mHBOT, or antibiotics...and feel returning symptoms within a couple of weeks or a month.

In the meantime, I am running again, working part time, traveling, etc. and living a very active, unrestricted, med-free life. For this I am extremely grateful, and feel an obligation to put my story out there so people can use the information to make more informed choices about their treatment...

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soccermama
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Phoiph, please continue to give your opinion even though you may have dissenting opinions that are directed at you, personally.

While your experience is anecdotal, it has backing by science. (although not specifically to lyme).

mHBOT does alot of things for the body.

My opinion is that the effects of the infection are as bad as the infection itself.

Maybe people do not get "cured" by mHBOT but if it keeps the effects away then people can lead a "normal" life.

Sometimes, the body is so "busy" dealing with the effects that it does not have the reserves to fight the infection. So mHBOT might free the body so to speak to fight it.

Just a thought...

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WPinVA
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Perhaps I should have added some more context - I have been on strong oral antibiotics as well as many herbals, in combinations, for most of the 2 years prior to starting HBOT.

I was CDC positive for babesia duncani and Lyme and a clinical dx of Bart. I started out bedridden. I have made great progress but am still not well.

The most persistent issues are brain fog and fatigue. So, in my case, I am hoping that HBOT will be the final kick to get it out of my body, and it is good to hear that that worked for another.

I am currently off of antibiotics but have an appointment next week where I will probably go back on them, as my LLMD believes abx and HBOT work well together.

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Phoiph
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WP in VA...

I agree with soccermama, in that the effects of the infection are as crucial to deal with as the infection itself.

It is not just about killing bugs...but the overall healing that takes time, and is greatly facilitated by long term mHBOT.

It involves cleansing, repair, and rebuilding, not only from years of having the infection, but years of ingesting toxins (antibiotics, etc.) to try to kill the infection, whether this was effective therapy for the individual or not.

So, my answer to your original question remains the same...

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Carmen
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I wish people would talk more about the the repairs needed from having the infection and from ingesting toxins (antibiotics) to try to kill the infection.

How do you know where the disease stops and the symptoms calling for need to detox start?

Is the CD57 test the only test that can tell you if you are cured?

There are probably a lot of issues that long term antibiotic therapy causes that will need repair... anyone have a list?

Because Im not using antibiotics I'm interested in the long term damage the lyme leaves behind when its gone. Is there list for that?

Or is it that when lyme is fully gone absolutley all pain symptoms are gone too?

They have HBOT in a city near by but Im unsure what it can do for me nor even if they would consider treating post lyme issues. HBOT centers Ive been around before were rather picky on what they were willing to treat.

Someone who reports being cured of lyme but still not feeling well said that chinese cupping restored her, as the cupping pulled toxins and stagnation out. Im hearing very little about post lyme issues and treatment.

If it were just post lyme issues would not HBOT be effective with less treatments? What do you think Phoiph?

[ 01-06-2014, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Carmen ]

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WPinVA
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"How do you know where the disease stops and the symptoms calling for need to detox start?"

Well, that is the million dollar question. I doubt anyone on here can tell you for sure, as we are all different. That is probably why there is no one "cure" that works for everyone.

Some people are still sick because they have a lingering infection with either Lyme or one of the co-infections. Some people are dealing with detox or MTHFR issues, or yeast, or mold exposure, or things that the Lyme triggered, like auto-immune issues. Or some fun combination of all of these things.

I have been wondering how much Lyme and co I have left vs. the other stuff, but here I am on now on HBOT with herxes bringing up old Lyme symptoms so I guess I do have some bugs left.

I have learned two big things along the way:

1) It is about both killing the bugs and repairing the damage. You can't get well by just doing one and not both.

2) I have found that it's incredibly helpful to be open-minded about different treatments. There seem to be different things that work for different people so being patient and willing to try different things seems like a good approach.

There are limits built in such as money, access to treatment, what your body can handle, so I don't want to build in another one by closing off the possibility of trying something. I respect your decision not to use antibiotics, but I'm just saying that maybe it's a good idea to keep that as an option down the line and "never say never."

Earlier on, I was resistant to going gluten-free, I finally got over that and when I saw how much it helped, I was so sorry I hadn't tried it sooner. It seemed like such a big hurdle but it really wasn't that big of a deal compared to feeling so sick.

Similarly, I was very leery of HBOT, but here I am doing it. If it doesn't work, I don't know what I'll do next, but I do get more open-minded with each step, so that's progress at least.

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Phoiph
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Carmen...

You bring up many questions that I have thought about for years...starting long ago when antibiotics "failed" me.

I have come to believe that our treatment focus needs to change drastically if we are ever to get a handle on this disease.

In my opinion, the infection is only the inciting factor...the real issue becomes the disabling of the immune system that it causes, and the destructive chain of events it leaves in its wake.

I believe that many infections, including Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Protomyxzoa, etc., as well as other serious diseases, such as cancer, would be no match for the immune system if it were functioning optimally.

Borrelia's strategy, for example, can be compared to the Trojan horse; it enters in disguise, then confuses, outnumbers, and overpowers the immune system.

Things quickly start to go very wrong in the body and mind when other diseases, such as coinfections, which might have normally been a non-issue, flourish, along with other opportunistic pathogens, which would have previously been kept in check by the immune system. Latent genetic predispositions may now find an avenue for expression as well.

The immune system becomes chaotic, like an army without a general, even attacking its own troops (e.g., autoimmune disease).

So, what do we do? We bombard the infection with heavy artillery (antimicrobials). This indiscriminate "shotgun" approach will likely hit a few exposed invaders, but the enemy is a master of deception and can take cover for years.

The result is extensive collateral damage (including immune suppression, toxicity, etc.) sustained from this continual barrage of "friendly fire".

At this point, unless something is done to organize the troops and bring in fresh soldiers (i.e., the immune system), the battle can't be won.

This is why I believe our focus needs to shift. it is ultimately futile to focus on "chasing invaders" with one microbial after another...while disregarding (and suppressing/damaging) the only true defense the body has; the immune system.

I am convinced that the key to "winning the war" lies predominantly in bringing the immune system back in command.

In my case, this was accomplished through mHBOT, which addressed both the infection and immune dysfunction, as well as repair and restoration.

In answer to your question...would it take less sessions of HBOT/mHBOT to become well if you were just dealing with residual symptoms of Lyme, rather than the infection itself?

Maybe so, but this would be impossible to predict for each individual. I have a different way of looking at MHBOT; I don't ask myself how many treatments it might take before I can stop.

For me, mHBOT is a lifestyle adaptation...just like exercising, taking probiotics, or not eating gluten. When you have been through a "war", you reinforce your "castle walls"...but knowing what I know now about the health benefits of mHBOT, I would include it in my life whether or not I had Lyme. I will probably use it to some extent indefinitely.

This is why it is difficult for me to support people's plan to spend a lot of money for short term treatments (for Lyme) in a HBOT clinic, when, in my opinion, they could be putting the funds toward a mHBOT home chamber that would allow them to maximize their health benefits long term...

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Carmen
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I just haven't been able to figure out how to afford mHBOT,,, I guess I could sell the house that my husband is building and not yet completed.

Finding a way through this is a challenge for many economically and we dont all get to do what we think might the most advantageous.

As it is I'm considering finding work this spring, when our intentions were to be retired. Fortuantley Im feeling well enough to take that on. Most work in this neck of the woods is minimal wage which is hard. If I knew Id have to work I wouldnt be where I am located now.

I would love to have an mHBOT chamber,, as Im kind of an alternative medical junkie over the years anyway.....and

I did have one HBOT session when I was quite young and healthy while being trained by an alternative medical doctor to do colon therapy. I was astounded at how well it made me feel for days after! It healed a troublsome paper cut on my finger almost instantly.

Rigth now my major lifestyle change is rectal insufflation of ozone gas, as well as vaginal, one or the other daily.

I do believe in the power of oxygen and oxygen is what HBOT is all about, and how to effectively get it into your body.

Im considering doing ozone saline injections but I will have to train someone willing to help me and I will only do this if my current progress stops. It is what I have access to.
I knew someone who was dying of Hep C and the docs told him to put his affairs in order. This is how he regained his full health in just a few months. Ozone gas, when in the blood can get to all of the tissues. The issue is in not frequent enought applications to get the work done for most people.

I dont mean to derail your thread. I see what you are saying about lifestyle changes.

Nothing boosts the immune system like oxygen and ozone. There has been a ton of research to validate it. I haven't been able to find a tidy list of the benefits of HBOT, only lots of studies.

This link leads to all the studies on hyperbaric oxygen for those considering mHBOT
http://isearch.avg.com/search?q=beneficial+effects+of+hbot&sap=tr&lang=en&mid=9791eb989f2b47d19537d15775a27c76-893ad2b44f4c13ebd52fb6a4e4ebc198f91ac9d3&cid=%7b8607588F-1335-4C05-8B 8F-D7E071D0EF24%7d&v=17.1.2.1&ds=AVG&d=10%2f18%2f2012+8%3a17%3a25+AM&pr=fr&pid=avg&sg=0&cmpid=%25CMPID%25&snd=pg&pagenum=2

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Carmen
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Here is an blog entry by a physician who treats lyme with HBOT
http://lymemd.blogspot.com/2013/10/immune-hyperstimulation-lyme-disease.html

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Nancy L
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I just read "The Oxygen Revolution" by Dr. Harch.

It does not address lyme except in passing, but all the benefits of HBOT are there in how HBOT therapy helped the various chronic conditions(& many "off-label").

The most amazing benefit is that oxygen therapy actually starts new tissue growth to replace damaged or diseased tissues. It can reverse previous damage to tissues, including removing scar tissue and brain lesions.

Also it helps the immune system to become stronger, and your body systems to function better.

While it definitely kills some lyme bacteria (from those 2 studies), my understanding from people who have taken a series of HBOT, but eventually relapsed without further therapy of some kind, says that it does not kill ALL of the lyme bacteria.

The study by Cowden & others on TOA-free cat's claw, which explains that antibiotics and other antimicrobials (right word?) cannot kill the lyme bacteria in some cells (redblood, etc)until the host cells naturally expire in 6-8 months (some types of cells longer).

Then the human host cells die naturally and the lyme and other contents spill into the body in spirochete form, which the study says is the vulnerable(& also reproductive)form that can be easily killed by antibiotics and antibacterials (they used TOA-free cat's claw in their study, a natural antibiotic in the quinolone (sp?) family, the study says).

The study says a majority (think 85%) of the study patients tested lyme-free at the end of the study.

The study gives dosages and that the herb has to be taken daily(and must be TOA-free)for 12 months or longer, and then a tiny maintenance dose to take care of bacteria that are in longer-lived host cells.

I am not pushing for this herb therapy although I am going to try it to see if I can tolerate it. I see a pattern here.

Many people have had actual cures, or indefinite remissions for a number of years and no relapse yet, from antibiotics that have been taken daily for 12+ months, usually 18 months and then discontinued.

Phoiph has had similar success/long-term remission with mHBOT taken daily for 12+months. Although she appears unwilling after her terrible lyme years to risk relapse to give us a guinea pig relapse test [Smile]

And now this herbal success story 12+MO.MINIMUM.

Daily treatment with something that kills the spirochetes when they spill out in vulnerable form for 12-18mo.

I believe that lyme can be cured with daily treatment for long-term, because of this study and patients experience.

Am I thinking wrong here somehow? Just being stupidly hopeful?

Nancy

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Carmen
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"I believe that lyme can be cured with daily treatment for long-term, because of this study and patients experience."

I think you are right Nancy with perhaps some exceptions for folks who have issues detoxing. It might be much harder for them and take longer.

and my doc says that enzymes are essential for breaking open the cyst and if you can break the cyst and kill what comes out immediately then you will shorten your disease process... still no one is sure just when to stop treatment though... I was hoping less than a year but I guess I will be cautious and do a year. I was thinking 9 months, but whats another 3 months in the sum total of it all.

my neighbor got rid of lyme in much less than a year using Colloidal silver, TAO free Samento and enzymes after alternative medicine put him in remission two years previously, only to come back on him. I'd have to ask him but I think it was more like several months of the CS, samento and enzymes that put him past it all. He had had lyme undiagnosed for 20 years and it had nearly killed him. Ozone, glutathione, vitamin c IV and chelation saved his life the first time and IVs of something similar to MMS... maybe some other stuff too, not sure.

The best thing about natural therapies is that they boost the immune system and nothing can do it like oxygen, or ozone.

Im not surprised that HBOT will repair brain lesions. HBOT is used for head injury, even head injury that occured long ago can benefit.

Hopeful? We all need hope. But its where we put our hope that counts. I put my hope in natural therapies because antibiotics have damaged me in the past, and at dosages not near that required for Lyme.

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mbdq
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Some really good points in this thread. I am with you all on trying to kill the spirochetes but also rebuild and heal the body.

4 years of combo abx with 8 months IV did not get me well. I am currently up to 80 hrs mhbot. Something is changing in my physiology. I can feel it somehow.

I still have bad days when I have migraines, head pain and cant get off the couch, but I am having some really good days too.

For example, my hands are usually always ice cold. The past few days, my hands and feet will flush and get super warm. They arent sweaty but just warm and flushed. Cool stuff.

Looking forward to seeing where this goes longterm.

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oxygenbabe
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Here's the thing. "Believing" this or that means nothing. Science and reality is what counts.

"I believe that many infections, including Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Protomyxzoa, etc., as well as other serious diseases, such as cancer, would be no match for the immune system if it were functioning optimally."

What does function optimally mean? The people who have trouble clearing borrelia, with a shortish course of antibiotics (a few weeks to, at worst, a few months of orals) have genetic vulnerabilities. Such as a highly immunogenic response to OspA. Look at the literature. That's what leads to "antibiotic resistant" arthritis etc.

In addition, there are many strains of borrelia. For one person, a virulent strain of borrelia might be the main problem. Another might have several strains. A third might have a mild strain but also have another tbd or virus that is undoing the . Some might have powassan and not know it, and need strong antivirals whether herbs or medicines. Immune function is not so simple as "good or bad".

If you get a bad case of erlichia, it's often because you have a Gp6D deficiency.

HBOT in a clinic, and mhbot as a followup, or if you can't afford a clinic, mhbot alone, can be very helpful. I think it's an underutilized therapy. But then someone comes on and posts all their 'beliefs' in a way that influences desperate and sick people...I think people should understand they are unlikely to have a full response, even if they change their diet...this therapy has been around for quite a while now, and numerous lymies purchased home chambers. You'd hear it if this was the ticket home. Which doesn't mean it isn't a really useful adjunct therapy for those who can afford it.

Some people have had a lot of success using hbot in a clinic adjunctively with antibiotics. To try to influence people *away* from a useful therapy, to doing it at home, bothers me. I think people should read everything, but please try to keep wild hope out of it, especially based on one person's reports--unless you have a lot of money to blow, be cautious. If I had all the knowledge today back then, I would have done 2 months at around 2.0 ata with eyes closed, and then done a home chamber, slowly tapering off. I personally would have concerns about an hour daily of mhbot in perpetuity unless it was necessary, so I'd try to do the minimum to keep up function.

Good luck to all.

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oxygenbabe
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Here's the thing. "Believing" this or that means nothing. Science and reality is what counts.

"I believe that many infections, including Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella, Protomyxzoa, etc., as well as other serious diseases, such as cancer, would be no match for the immune system if it were functioning optimally."

What does function optimally mean? The people who have trouble clearing borrelia, with a shortish course of antibiotics (a few weeks to, at worst, a few months of orals) have genetic vulnerabilities. Such as a highly immunogenic response to OspA. Look at the literature. That's what leads to "antibiotic resistant" arthritis etc.

In addition, there are many strains of borrelia. For one person, a virulent strain of borrelia might be the main problem. Another might have several strains. A third might have a mild strain but also have another tbd or virus that is undoing the . Some might have powassan and not know it, and need strong antivirals whether herbs or medicines. Immune function is not so simple as "good or bad".

If you get a bad case of RMSF it's often because you have a Gp6D deficiency.

HBOT in a clinic, and mhbot as a followup, or if you can't afford a clinic, mhbot alone, can be very helpful. I think it's an underutilized therapy. But then someone comes on and posts all their 'beliefs' in a way that influences desperate and sick people...I think people should understand they are unlikely to have a full response, even if they change their diet...this therapy has been around for quite a while now, and numerous lymies purchased home chambers. You'd hear it if this was the ticket home. Which doesn't mean it isn't a really useful adjunct therapy for those who can afford it.

Some people have had a lot of success using hbot in a clinic adjunctively with antibiotics. To try to influence people *away* from a useful therapy, to doing it at home, bothers me. I think people should read everything, but please try to keep wild hope out of it, especially based on one person's reports--unless you have a lot of money to blow, be cautious. If I had all the knowledge today back then, I would have done 2 months at around 2.0 ata with eyes closed, and then done a home chamber, slowly tapering off. I personally would have concerns about an hour daily of mhbot in perpetuity unless it was necessary, so I'd try to do the minimum to keep up function.

Good luck to all.

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oxygenbabe
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I should add, the only reason I turned to hbot is because I'm so lousy with antibiotics. Otherwise I'd have done aggressive IV's and orals early on.
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CD57
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Nancy, what about the coinfections? I don't understand why the Lyme gets so much attention, LLMDs have said and the literature says that the spirochete is the least of our problems. It has a long replication cycle and does not develop resistance to abx. The coinfections, however, do, and also multiply faster. Also there are very few things that actually *kill* the coinfections.

I have a very bad case of what may be bartonella that has practically killed me. I have failed all abx and herbal treatments for it, because nothing actually kills it, and it is incredibly immune suppressive. It causes unbearable symptoms and I am at my wits end. I have symptoms every single day at the same time, and new ones appear quickly and stay. No one knows what to do. I need some hope that this can help, so am watching the posters here very closely while I try to get $ for a chamber. I would take ANY improvement from these unpleasant psych and cognitive symptoms, mouth and tongue sores, pain, twitching/fasciculations, floaters, bone pain and skull pain everywhere. Even if it means staying in a chamber for the rest of my life.

Yes we all need some hope.

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CD57
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Sorry for the above post.
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Phoiph
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Unfortunately, our current "science" and "reality" aren't working so well in the chronic Lyme world.

If it were, considering the multitudes of people who have done antibiotic and other therapies for years, there would likely be a greater number of enthusiastic success stories out there as examples for people to follow.

There are also proportionately fewer people who have done mHBOT for chronic Lyme, and even fewer who have committed to daily treatments over the long term, so it is not surprising we don't see a multitude of success stories there, either.

Which is why posting experiences is so important.

Of course, I agree that everyone has genetic predispositions that greatly influence what happens to them physically and mentally throughout their lives, whether it means being susceptible to a certain infections, diseases, mental illnesses, etc.

It is believed that although we are born with these predispositions, whether or not these "genes" are turned on or off is greatly influenced by environmental factors, including toxic exposures, and lifestyle choices/habits. That's my point...nobody's immune system functions optimally for these reasons.

For example, I likely have a genetic/immune susceptibility of some sort, or I probably wouldn't have contracted chronic Lyme in the first place. In addition, I likely have a genetic weakness that doesn't allow me to process toxins effectively, or I wouldn't have been considered an "antibiotic failure" (LLMD's words), and become increasingly debilitated by using them. Additionally, the longer I was on antibiotics, the more "latent" genetic conditions manifested.

But, to my great surprise, I still got well...and although we are all unique, we are all part of the human race, and there are likely many other people out there with similar issues who may benefit from mHBOT as I did.

How many people and to what degree, no one can predict. I trust that people synthesize the information and make their own decisions, just as I did.

As far as "blowing" money goes, I spent at least 3 times more money on IV antibiotics (even with full insurance) than I did on my chamber...not counting all the other doctors and therapies I tried unsuccessfully.

And, unlike most other therapies, although expensive, at least a home chamber is an investment that can be re-sold if someone changes their mind or decides it doesn't work for them...

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CD57
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