My LLND recently diagnosed me with Lyme and he thinks I have Bartonella as well.
When I told my acupuncturist the news, she advised me to wait on treatment for a few weeks. She says that my immune system is pretty weak right now, and she wants to strengthen it before beginning treatment (through acupuncture, herbs, supplements, etc.).
What are your thoughts? I would love to start treatment as soon as possible, but strengthening my immune system first also makes sense, since the treatment kills the Lyme / Bartonella bacteria and thereby releases toxins into my system.
Thanks, Kara
[ 01-05-2014, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: kara ]
Posts: 25 | From Berkeley, CA | Registered: Oct 2013
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droid1226
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34930
posted
I think that if you have recently been infected then absolutely not, start treatment asap.
I really don't see the benefit to waiting. If she's lyme literate and confident she can make a significant difference in your immunity, then maybe but idk about that.
I'd start everything at once asap or close together, especially with bart.
Judie
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Member # 38323
posted
I did acupuncture for 10 years for my messed up immune system BEFORE getting infected with Lyme.
It can help with symptom relief, but barely touched what was going on when Lyme came into the picture.
I listened to an acupuncturist (whom was supposedly Lyme literate) when I got reinfected this year and got HORRIBLY ill because I delayed treatment with antibiotics.
I respectfully disagree with her assessment.
I would trust you LLND. It will get way too confusing having 2 treatment plans going at once unless the practitioners are willing to talk to each other and coordinate.
Sometimes they will work together, but if they won't, you will ultimately need to make a decision who to work with.
Immune support is good, but it does not replace treating Lyme.
I would stick with the expert. I work with an LLND too and she's been fantastic at suggesting supplements to support my immune system.
I take Toxin AbsorbMax to mop up the toxins released by the buggers now.
Needles alone won't do it if you're having trouble detoxing in my opinion.
I know your acupuncturist is good has intentions. Myself and two other friends with Lyme has tried treating with acupuncture and had symptom relief but it just made the Lyme go into hiding and come back EVEN WORSE when they stopped acupuncture.
Acupuncture does a lot of good things, but in my experience good supplements and diet are good immune support while treating.
I do know a fantastic acupuncturist in San Francisco who does supportive treatment for people with Lyme (not the person I mentioned earlier). If I could get to SF I would see her twice a week if I could while treating.
Good luck!
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Judie
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"I would love to start treatment as soon as possible, but strengthening my immune system first also makes sense, since the treatment kills the Lyme / Bartonella bacteria and thereby releases toxins into my system."
You'll have to be doing this kind of support ALL THROUGH treatment.
One of the reasons the immune system gets so messed up is because of delayed treatment.
I don't see why you wouldn't do both at the same time.
I would discuss immune system support with your LLND and follow her protocol so you don't conflict with your treatment plan.
It can get complicated if you take herbs from both practitioners. I'd run anything that the acupuncturist suggests with the LLND before paying for it.
I've been in your situation before and you need to be strong with whatever you decide because both practitioners will be suggesting things. You will need to be okay saying "no" (even internally and just telling the person "I'll think about it"). It can be difficult if you're working closely with a practitioner if they think they have your best interest in mind, but you've decided to go a different direction.
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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Keebler
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posted
- It's hard to tell but it sounds like your acupuncturist is not also your LLND. It sounds like the acupuncturist is NOT at all ILADS educated and will NOT be adequate to help you.
Absolutely, do NOT delay treatment. It simply will not work to try to first strengthen immune system UNLESS lyme is ALSO addressed at the same time.
I took that very bad advice and suffered dearly for it. And it cost me a fortune, too. Then, no more money left when an ILADS educated LL ND finally came to my area. All gone.
And, if the acupuncturist has "boosting" of immune system in mind (as most non-ILADS educated folks do) it can spell disaster.
Lyme dismantles the immune system in some very unique ways and "flips" function of its parts, so to speak. It's not so much about "boosting" (BAD idea) or even "building" as that can boomerang . . . but about very specific support that only an ILADS educated professional would understand.
This is just ONE reason why whomever works with you MUST be ILADS educated. Your LL ND may be, but be sure. Some are, some are not. Just because an ND knows something about lyme or other tick borne infections does not mean they know enough.
Be certain they are ILADS educated. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Your ND should know ALL of the authors (and protocol options) listed in this section. Hopefully, they will have been through the ILADS Physician Training Program, too.
When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
Be aware that integrative doctors can have various levels of formal herbal &/or nutritional education, perhaps even just a short course. Do ask first. Some have learned on their own from experts in the field. There are many ways to acquire knowledge and most are eager to share basic details about their training. You want someone with a deep knowledge.
Some of the specialities above may not actually treat lyme yet, for things such as physical adjustments, it is just good that they are also LL, at least to some degree (to know never to suddenly twist the neck or spine).
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;
knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.
You can compare and contrast many approaches.
BASIC HERBAL EDUCATIONAL & SAFETY links,
BODY WORK links with safety tailored to lyme patients,
& WHY you need an ILADS-educated, Lyme Literate Doctor (whether LLMD or LL ND, or both) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- ANY good treatment protocol INCLUDES support at every stage. Just to be clear: must treat infection WHILE supporting body. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
It is a very good question.
In my opinion,
No. Do not delay starting treatment.
Start your protocol from the LLND as soon as possible.
These are INFECTIONS.
Before my lyme dx, I spent 13 grand last year alone on alternative treatments in search of relief.
I went 3 days a week to a TCM doc for acupuncture, prolotherapy, cupping, bleeding, gua sha, and herbal patches and rubs.
I did this for 3 months. No improvement obviously, as an INFECTION as virulent and aggressive as lyme, isn't going to get better. It just gets worse.
I saw a massage therapist. I saw an osteopath. I saw a physiotherapist. Prolotherapy.
Etc. I believe in all those as being helpful modalities, especially for structure issues. But for INFECTION...no.
In the words of my LL, the best thing to help the immune system is to get the bacterial load down first, then help to rebuild the immune system as one progresses.
For the last 12 years, I had been doing natural treatments, herbs, nutrition, acupuncture, massage, kineseology, massage therapy, chiropractic, energy work to try and feel better. If the alternative route worked, I would have been well by now.
Save your money and time and energy for treating the infections first. You'll need it-now I spend about a grand a month on probiotics, supplements, my LL appts and IV supplies.
The reason I used Caps for infection is because it is so easy to forget these are infections, as they affect our entire bodies, we feel terrible all over, and we call it Lyme Disease, which I don't agree with. It is easier on the brain and morale, I find, for me, to refer to it by what it is, INFECTION.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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Thanks so much for your advice. It sounds like there's a consensus .
I should probably also note that I was infected three years ago, my LLND says with Lyme and probably Bartonella as well. I've been getting new symptoms every 2-6 months since then.
How long into treatment do people typically experience alleviation of their symptoms? For example, starting a few months ago, my feet hurt if I walk too much.. it would be nice to know a ballpark figure when I could (hopefully) expect to walk a normal amount again after starting treatment.
Thanks, Kara
Posts: 25 | From Berkeley, CA | Registered: Oct 2013
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GretaM
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 40917
posted
Hi Kara,
It took about 2 months of bart treatment at full abx doses and combos to get some relief from my bart symptoms.
About 50% of my head pain (day to day) went away. I still get 2 migraines a week, but the days in between are better.
The anxiety and anger took longer. About 4 months and it seems to be gone completely.
Still have other bart symptoms.
Still have most of my lyme symptoms, except the chest pain and rashes. Those went away 2-4 weeks into doxy and tinidazole.
Slowly, but surely Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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