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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Getting serious about BioFilm

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Author Topic: Getting serious about BioFilm
nefferdun
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I am not a scientist and struggle to understand how things work but I do know that bartonella and protomyxzoa produce biofilm to protect them from antibiotics. More than likely having borellia or babesia with either of these other two infections is also going to make it really hard to get well. The more biofilm the more protection.

I took lumbrokinase/ boluoke for years. I took wobenzyme. I had shots of heparin. Then I had my blood examined and there was still "substantial biofilm". None of that stuff worked and it is expensive.

I am listing this site because it gives a good explanation of how this stuff works. You can buy it on amazon.com too. EDTA not only binds with heavy metas (which are useful to the pathogens) it breaks down biofilm by binding with the iron and magnesium.

http://www.naturalhealthyconcepts.com/lipophos-edta-ARG60ml-p-allergy-research-group.html

Liposomal EDTA is promoted to be as effective as IV, at a fraction of the cost. The best way to avoid the taste (I have found) is take it with a large spoon and immediately, before you swallow, start drinking pomegranate juice (Costco) so that is what you taste. Replenish minerals away from the EDTA.

If you are the low fat diet, the biofilm pathogens will suck up the liposome because it is so essential to their survival. It acts like a Trojan horse to deliver the EDTA encapsulated inside, where it can work.

You can also buy, or make, other liposomes like vitamin C or glutathione. So many people are claiming to have benefited from liposomal vitamin C that I don't think it is all hype.

Xylitol destroys the bacteria causing biofilm. That is why dentists recommend it. It also helps kids with ear infections. It is being used in combo with lactoferrin to destroy the biofilm on diabetic wounds. Patients facing amputations have had their limbs saved.

Xylitol is absorbed slowly into the human blood stream. It has calories but because of the slow absorption, it does not contribute to weight gain. If a dog eats xylitol, their bodes absorb it very quickly, responding to it like sugar.

Their pancreas secretes a lot of insulin, which can send them into shock and even kill them. Don't get the bright idea (like I did ) of trying to make a liposome out of xylitol!

There is a protocol some mothers of autistic kids are using, which is 1 ts xylitol in a drink, along with 250-500 mg lactoferrin on an empty stomach. I have been trying it. All I can say is I got rid of my yeast infection because xylitol also kills that. Maybe if I make it the only sugar I eat, it would help more. Here is something about how it kills the bacteria.

"Xylitol works in the metabolism cycle in the bacteria. It fills the slot that is normally taken up by fructose. By blocking this sector, the metabolism is blocked entirely, and the bacterium dies.

Yes, xylitol kills germs. It does not do it in the traditional dental way — killing upon contact. Xylitol stops bacteria from living by starving it, and acids are not created, which alters the pH. The rest of the acidophilic bacteria die too, leaving room for the basophilic bacteria."

Dr. K says cactus tea is the most powerful biofilm destroyer. It is similar to xylitol, inhibiting the growth of bacteria when you drink it, so you don't get cavities. Another benefit is it visibly whitens your teeth. You can buy it or the tincture (expense but I am trying it) at BioPure Healing. I am not promoting any of these sites. You can get the tea else where but that is where he recommends.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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If you are on the low fat whole foods vegan(ish) diet, then limiting your fat is helping to limit the amount of biofilm being produced. In an interview with F, he said a patient that fasted for 12.5 days had in detectible biofilm but within days of resuming the typical diet, the biofilm was back.

I know of one desperate person that last I heard was on her 14th day of fasting There has to be a better answer.

I recently bought fat binder pills made and shipped from the UK. The cheapest, but still costly, brand is Proactol. It is made from prickly pear cactus so is complety harmless. Two tablets bind with up to 30% of the fat you just ate and expels it from the body.

One site said 240 calories and another site said 150 calories of fat. That would equate to about 15 grams per tablet if the first one is correct or figure the math for the second one.

This way I don't have to go crazy on the diet because I can bind the excess. You do need to take fat soluble vitamins.

Right now, by the way, I don't have protomxyzoa symptoms. I just have some bartonella symptoms. I had some Alinia in the cupboard and I started it 5 days ago. My anxiety/irritation/depersonalizaion has gone from 10 to about 2. I order Bactrim DS. I am getting the cat tested today for bartonella and protomyxao , if the vet agrees.

21% of cats in MONTANA carry bartonella - most are asymptomatic. 44% of cats with bartonella have some kind of pancreatic problem, including insulin dependent diabetes.

As hard as it has been for me to get a doctor to take me seriously, I wonder how many people out there are infected with bartonella and don't even know it? What about these people that are mass murdering total strangers? Anyone with depersonalization or aggression should be checked.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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I have no idea what this is but it is interesting.

http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/140122/srep03811/full/srep03811.html


"Treatment of S. aureus with the HIB supernatant not only reduced its ability to form or maintain biofilms but also its ability to invade human epithelial cells"

Another thing of interest I read is that the amino acids. tyrosine, triptophan and one other I can't remember right now - IN THE D FORM- NOT THE L FORM - completely destroy biofilm. Yes, completely. But you can't get those form for some reason.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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girl
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I need to learn about the EDTA but I'm not sure if that's good it binds with magnesium? Can you tell me more? Is it best to go on low fat diet with biofilm? I know I have trouble digesting fats right now.
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girl
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Is it safe to take EDTA if you are on no other metal binding protocol, to take the EDTA alone?
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TNT
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nefferdun,

You said that you currently are not dealing with PR symptoms...

If you took Alinia and your anxiety, irritation, depersonalization got much better, how do you know that you didn't just hit PR? I know Dr. K says Alinia hits bart. some, but I know some practitioners use it for PR. It is an anti-protozoa med.

Just glad you're feeling better!

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Phoiph
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"...I know of one desperate person that last I heard was on her 14th day of fasting There has to be a better answer..."

In my opinion, there is definitely a better answer!

I was taught by a Homeopathic MD (who is also an organic farmer), that the body can store the good essential fat soluble vitamins for a time, but eventually it will run low, setting the stage for serious issues...particularly for someone already in a chronic, health-compromised state trying to recover and rebuild their system.

He actually believed that my pre-Lyme, low-fat diet may have set me up to be more susceptible and to have a much more difficult time fighting the disease.

Here's a link regarding the role of good fats in health:

http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/principles-of-healthy-diets#saturated

Among many other benefits, hyperbaric destroys biofilm; that is one of the main reasons it is used in mainstream medicine, as it assists greatly in wound healing.

It also has the advantage of not having to be absorbed by the gut to penetrate into the system.

I ate (and still eat) a high (good) fat diet, and did not do anything else (other than mHBOT) to destroy biofilm (couldn't tolerate supplements/drugs at the time)...even though I was likely positive for PR (as per Dr. F), as well as Lyme, babesia, & bartonella, and very ill for 8 years.

I believe bone broths were essential to my recovery.

Just offering another angle, as someone who has recovered in a different way...

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MichaelTampa
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quote:
Originally posted by nefferdun:
Dr. K says cactus tea is the most powerful biofilm destroyer. It is similar to xylitol, inhibiting the growth of bacteria when you drink it, so you don't get cavities. Another benefit is it visibly whitens your teeth. You can buy it or the tincture (expense but I am trying it) at BioPure Healing. I am not promoting any of these sites. You can get the tea else where but that is where he recommends.

My experience has been the cistus tea stained my teeth, but I did find it helpful for a period.

Detoxamin is a suppository with EDTA, so that is another option. I have been recently putting ozonated castor oil on the bottom of my legs which have many spots on the skin which docs say is from bad circulation. This has been a chronic situation for some time, and this is the first thing that I have done that seems to be having an impact, as the spots are now declining. Not sure if it is helping by breaking up biofilm, or some other mechanism.

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Catgirl
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Phioph, let me get this straight, Dr F told you that you likely had proto? Did he test you for it?

If the only thing you did was HBOT to feel better, it sounds like you killed off this bug with it.

I can't speak for everyone who has proto, but for me, fats and animal products make it MUCH worse. I thought that Dr. F tells his patients to eat very low fat and very low arginine. Has something changed?

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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girl
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I think the way we handle fat has a lot to do with the liver. If the liver is over burdened we will not be able to process fats as well. Also, you might do better with one fat than another. for example, you might not be able to process coconut oil well, but you might do fine with raw butter and olive oil. I think I am sensitive to coconut oil.

I am all for the good fats I just know we need that good bacteria established to be able to digest them - so if that good bacteria's not there, you're likely to have a problem with it. (like me) Working on it though!

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girl
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Of note is that good bacteria produce biofilm, too.
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nefferdun
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TNT, yup that is possible. I just have other symptoms that are very bart, like sore soles of the feet in the AM - and I am not exhausted like I was before with PR. Back then I couldn't climb one flight of stairs without resting half way. Now I can climb 3 flights.

When PR is becoming active I lose my voice and I get nerve pain. Since starting Alinia I had one "ice pick" headache - another classic bart symptom - and my shins have been burning.

Phoiph and others, I do not know if you had protomxyzoa, which is what I am addressing. P. if you tested positive for protomyxzoa and were cured, I am interested. So far, there is no cure, which I don't accept. There has to be.

Ozonated castor oil is interesting. I never heard about it. WHere do you get that? I wonder if the spots are bart related. Dr. S. says bart affects your pigmentation causing (among other things) pea size brown spots and loss of pigment. I know I have that - again - it all cleared up last time I treated bart but it is back.

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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GretaM
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Bart is a proteobacteria and uses its host's DNA and incorporates it into its own DNA to evade the hosts immune system.

I will try to find the link.

In Buhners book he recommends leaving the bartonella biofilms alone-because it will spread the bartonella to other places when the biofilm is broken up.

That would be great advice if one didn't have any other infections hiding in the biofilm as well.

I believe that when bartonella is with other proteo bacteria, they also interchange DNA, and become harder to eradicate.

It was a link from Tincup. I will try to track it down.

So in my opinion, busting up the biofilm and killing the other proteo bacteria (mycoplasma?) brucella etc. is the only way to prevent bartonella from stealing DNA and being on its merry way.

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MichaelTampa
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quote:
Originally posted by nefferdun:
Ozonated castor oil is interesting. I never heard about it. WHere do you get that? I wonder if the spots are bart related. Dr. S. says bart affects your pigmentation causing (among other things) pea size brown spots and loss of pigment. I know I have that - again - it all cleared up last time I treated bart but it is back.

I am getting it from promolife.com.
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nefferdun
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Thanks Michael

Phoiph, here is something in support of what you have been saying. I think this blog is posted by the famous LLMD that wrote the book THe Lyme Solution.

Hyperbaric therapy, in addition to producing reactive oxygen species, also produces reactive nitrogen species. One of these products is nitric oxide. The effects of this compound are complex and protean with literature that goes on forever. But one demonstrated effect is the dispersal of biofilms. This may be of additional benefit.

http://lymemd.blogspot.com/2013_07_01_archive.html


Look way down and you will find that quote and then his update on hyperbaric. He uses it a lot and he agrees with you to use the lower 1.5 amount - whatever that means.

I don't know how in the world I would get it though.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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I'll just add what ever seems interesting. From the Blog:

"There seems to be a mistaken notion that biofilms can be degraded with proteolytic enzymes like nattokinase. Since biofilms are not protein based this does not make sense.

I have thought there is no specific way of treating biofilms. I have felt that antibiotics like Tindamax which have better biofilm penetration, finding the right antibiotics, ones that work synergistically and using IV antibiotics to better saturate tissues were the way to go.

It does seem that dispersement of biofilms is a desired goal since bacteria are much easier to kill in free planktonic state. There are a couple of enzymes which facilitate this process but they are not available for clinical use. It has also been found that nitric acid, an important molecule, may facilitates the dispersal of biofilms. Apparently the best promoter of nitric acid is the amino acid arginine which can be taken as a supplement. "

Like I said, boluoke, earth worm protein, did not work for me.

It is interesting that I am homozygous for NOS so I can't make enough nitric oxide.

I hit the jack pot! This is from Dr. Roberts (not LLMD)
As the products of a compromised or genetically abnormal NOS system are the free radicals superoxide and peroxynitrite, aggressive antioxidant supplementation makes sense here (while a broad spectrum program of antioxidant supplementation is always wise, we specifically use Vitamin C to neutralize superoxide and 5-methyl folate to neutralize peroxynitrite).

I am doing an eureka dance - my liposomal vitamin C!!!!

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old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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girl
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Can you use liposomal Vitamin C for the "Salt/C?" I'm about to order that book.
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Razzle
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I read somewhere recently (can't remember where) that liposomal vitamin C fools bugs into thinking it is a fat that they need, so they uptake it instead of the actual fat they want...but then because it isn't the actual fat the bugs need, they die...

I bet this trick works on Protomyxzoa too...

So if I don't want to trust my brain-fogged self to make my own liposomal vitamin C, where can I buy it already made???

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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GretaM
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Neff, what are the genes for NOS?

Can you PM me the genes?

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Chipster
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Nefferdun,

Basically what that article is talking about is an unrecognized effect of B. bacteriovorus secretions upon Staph aures.

Although it appears that the B. bac organism will not kill Staph aureus, it now looks like the proteases secreted into the milieu around the Staph aureus will at least break up the biofilm around it.

The B bac organism secretes proteases into the extracellular "soup" aka supernatant. It is well known that the proteases will break gram neg biofilms (e.g. E. coli) and also kill gram negative organisms directly.

So, the take home is that use of B. bac as a probiotic might indirectly work against gram pos like Staph not by killing them but by breaking up the biofilms around Staph.

Chipster

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Chipster
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Neffurdun,

1.5 is 1.5 ATA or the equivalent of being under about 7 feet of water.

At that level there is very little risk of doing almost unlimited dives, although there is some very slight increase in seizure risk.

However, the eye risks and such are eliminated.

Chipster

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Chipster
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Razzle,

Liposomal Vit C from Livon Labs

1/866-790-2107 Livonlabs.com

Chipster

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nefferdun
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Chipster, thanks. That is way over my head. Does it sound like anything that could work for us?

Yes, Razzle, you can buy liposomal vitamin C. Just google it. They sell it on amazon.com. It is kind of pricey but not too bad. I ordered some to see if there is any difference.

The liposome is fat. It is made from lecithin. It encapsulates the vitamin C which is in water. I will look for the illustration that explains it.

Lipids are used to build biofilm (hence the low fat diet) and the kind of lipids - phosphytidylserene and phosphytidycholine - are the most essential fat required by the body. The biofilm critters are fooled into gathering up the liposome, not knowing when then begin to digest the fat, that underneath is the EDTA or vitamin C to do them in.

Think of the story of the Trojan horse. They bring it into the city thinking it is a wonderful treasure but inside is an army waiting to destroy them.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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girl
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So just to get clear, the liposomal Vit. C works to break up biofilm,correct? I didn't see any reference to this on the blog but would love to read about it if anyone has a link.

I wonder if that's how coconut oil works on yeast, the critter go to take up the fat and then the anti-fungal properties kick in?

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Chipster
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Nefferdun,

The paper is a very narrow treament of the use of B. bac. It talks only about this "new" finding that it works on the biofilm of Staph so you can not draw a direct conclusion from this paper.

Bb is neither gram pos or gram neg, which are staining techniques used in the lab to lump bacteria into broad groups based on the underlying cell physiology.

It stains weakly negative, which means it is neither.

I am not familiar with B. bac and don't know if it is indeed available as a probiotic or if it is safe to take or what the complications might be.

But, just from a biofilm point of view in the test tube, the paper is saying that the biofilm effect of B. bac was always considered large and now we know that it is even larger than we thought because it can get at the stubborn biofilm of Staph.

So, is it reasonable to conjecture that something with a wide and powerful anti-biofilm effect might also go after Lyme biofilm?

If it was absolutely safe to take and there were no significant immunosuppression issues like transplantation, my guess is that some physicians would think that it might be worth a shot.

Please note that I am not an infectious disease specialist and I don't practice medicine.

Chipster

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Razzle
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Thanks for the info on liposomal vit. C...definitely something I need to consider with my terrible intolerance to fats (likely critter-related)...

If the B. bac secretes proteolytic enzymes to bust biofilm, then wouldn't taking proteolytic enzymes themselves also bust biofilm??

--------------------
-Razzle
Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs.

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Chipster
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Proteolytic enzymes are not a one size fits all thing.

Much the same as antibiotics, where a certain antibiotic will be effective against certain bacteria and not others.

Finding biofilm busters is a huge area of research in conventional medicine now.

My guess is that there is no commercial product of the proteolytic enzymes of B. bac.

If you knew that B. bac secreted enzymes that busted Lyme biofilm, it is reasonable to think that just the proteolytic enzyme would be effective in the petri dish.

Whether just the proteolytic enzyme would be effective in the body is a different story. You would need to know if they were absorbed or stayed in the gastrointestinal tract, where they might have some effect on biofilm in the gut but not in the rest of the body.

And whether you could get them in high enough concentration to actually bust the biofilm, etc.

Chipster

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girl
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Here is a good website on "Candida" BIOFILM.

http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/09/16/how-to-eliminate-candida-biofilms/

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Phoiph
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catgirl:
[QB] Phioph, let me get this straight, Dr F told you that you likely had proto? Did he test you for it?

Catgirl...

I had a blood smear microscopy done in 2007 by Dr. F which indicated moderate protozoal forms (babesia spp). This was before FL1953/PM was identified or tested for.

I had the photograph of the blood smear re-interpreted by Dr. F in 2010 to clarify, as I had read that there was some controversy surrounding his findings back in 2007, and possibly some new developments in diagnosing additional organisms, etc.

The 2010 report indicated "hypochromic erythrocytes, epierythrozoans, hemobartonella, or hemoplasma, ring forms suggestive of protozoans (potentially Babesia spp, Plasmodium spp, or FL1953").

So, by this interpretation, it is quite possible that I had FL1953/PM.

Regarding oxygen and biofilm...

To consider a simple example from nature...if you watch a moving stream, the sludge/slime (biofilm) collects near the banks, where the water is moving slowly, or is stagnant and non-oxygenated.

In the center of the stream, however, where the water is it moving faster, bubbling over rocks, and mixing with oxygen, it is generally clear, and free of biofilm.

Biofilm doesn't like oxygen...

Will W. (the cytologist who has recently started posting) shared a technical article with me on how LOW oxygen keeps antibiotics (and possibly the immune system) from penetrating biofilms:

http://aac.asm.org/content/48/7/2659.short

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ukcarry
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I think many people confused biofilm with fibrin, which is why there was a big rush to take the fibrinolytic enzymes like Lumbro, Natto and Serrapeptase.

There have been several studies now on the antibiofilm properties of essential oils such as lemongrass, clove, red thyme, patchouli, cedarwood (deodora), eucalyptus, peppermint, spearmint, tea tree, rosemary. Supreme Nutrition make two combinations of oils specifically to degrade biofilm and I have read good things about them (but can't try them because they can no longer ship to UK). Their products are designed to work via application to the underneath of the foot.

I have been making my own mouthwash with some of these oils for a while now and find that my gums have certainly improved.
..
At Greg Lee's Twofrogscenter site there is a newsletter that lists some oils and Chinese herbs that have worked to disrupt Quorum sensing between some bacteria.

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Catgirl
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Thanks Phioph. :) I'm glad to hear you had some success treating it. I'm going to check it out (thanks for posting).

Ukcarry, good point (fibrin). Proto has advanced in me. I am so sensitive to oils and fats (even touching them affects me). I can't help but wonder if proto has been altered by man. It just doesn't make sense that a person can no longer eat meat, fats oils, and mag without feeling horrible.

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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ukcarry
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That's hard on you, Catgirl. Sorry.
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surprise
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Catgirl, how do you know feeling horrible with eating meats and fat oils isn't a gall bladder type issue? Even if GB was removed?
I'm just curious.

I don't have anything enlightening to add about biofilm, I did Boulke, Klaire Interphase Plus w/ EDTA while in treatment,
(tried Wobenzyme, disliked it, think it's the brand itself I don't care for, something about mold)

I would imagine the biofilms breaking apart and I wanted to make sure I had antibiotics/ herbs and antifungals on board to kill whatever came 'out'.

Oral EDTA after 6 weeks started to feel like it was pulling minerals from my teeth and bones (I don't have heavy metal issue)
so be careful of that possibility.

I get the nasty biofilm soup of pathogens forming a matrix.
And I get parasites are a huge co- infection no- one wants to talk about too much. Don't think they hang out in biofilm.

I started taking lipo C together w/ lipo glut daily, what an excellent combo, IMO- detoxing more junk out the gut, it seems, just on it's own, as I am off treatments.

--------------------
Lyme positive PCR blood, and
positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011.
low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012.
Update 7/16- After extensive treatments,
doing okay!

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nefferdun
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Chipster, thank you for trying to explain that to me. It is still over my head but I understand part of it. You can't make a comparison because they are different organisms but there is a possibility it might work. Too many variables.

Phiiph, if you were positive on bands 23 and 41, then it is likely you had/have PR. I know pathogens do not like oxygen. I have methyl cycle mutations that make my blood hyper coagulated so I am set up for that anyway.

I am homozygous for NOS so I don't produce enough nitric oxide and I store too much iron. Taking vitamin C is supposed to help that but if you take C with a high iron meal, it will increase the absorption.

CBS also sets you up for cardiovascular disease so I am being more careful about foods with sulfur. I am not eating soy any more. Just when I was beginning to like it!

I have gotten dramatically better. Last week I had anxiety through the roof and I could not sleep without Ambien. My anxiety is gone. My sleep last night was amazing. I even fell asleep while watching the TV. I never do that!

What is different? I began Alinia when I got back from my trip a week ago. I began making the liposomal vitamin C.

Yesterday the Adrenal Complex arrived that I ordered after reading about it in Dr. H's book. He said he uses it with patients that have insomnia. I also got a commercially made form of liposomal vitamin C. I took both of them.

I was zonked out 3 hours later. I was afraid I would not be able to go back to sleep when I went to bed but I had no trouble. I woke up a couple of times but went right back to sleep. I have been having the 2AM wake up unable to get back to sleep.

I am still waiting on the Cictus tincture to arrive. I have tea with xylitol first thing in the morning. And then 45 minutes later the lipsomes.

EDTA chelates minerals - that is how it breaks down biofilm, by binding with magnesium and iron. I began some cheap minerals 4 days ago. That might be another reason I am sleeping better because a deficiency can cause a lot of symptoms I was having.

We know the pathogens use the minerals but we need them too. The magnesium in the minerals I bought (did not have my glasses!) has magnesium oxide which isn't well absorbed. I was worried about trace minerals like zinc.

I don't know what it is but I am better. We had the cat tested for bartonella and toxoplasmosis and the results should be back in about ten days. Bartonella and PR are both biofilm producers and they both cause vicious insomnia. I am better so something is working.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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ukcarry
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Surprise, are you using the LiVon Laboratories products (lipo-spheric c and Glutathione)?
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GretaM
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This is a great thread.

Learning lots here.

Neff-How much did the toxo and bart tests cost for your cat?

I wanted to get mine done as well. Worried about reinfecting me.

Where does the vet send the bart tests? Galaxy?

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girl
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Here is what Body Ecology has to say about digesting fats.

"Until your inner ecosystem is restored, your liver improves, and your digestive tract is teeming with fat-digesting friendly bacteria, you may not be able to tolerate oils, butter, or fats at all and will have to avoid them completely. This is very common with a body-ecology imbalance because of the toxic, congested condition of the liver and gallbladder. Symptoms of fat intolerance are: pains in the neck and shoulders; spasms in the large and small intestines; feeling tired just after eating; bloating, indigestion, belching, flatulence, and/or nausea; right upper abdominal discomfort; and hard stools. Fat intolerance can be confirmed by a simple urine test of by simply eliminating fats from your diet for a week and noting any improvement in your digestion and your energy.

As you continue on The Diet and keep eating lots of fermented foods and drinks, you'll find that fats and oils are easier to digest. Digestive enzymes that help digest fats should be taken with each meal.

A small amount of organic, unrefined coconut oil used for sauteing (as for onions when making a pot of soup) shouldn't cause you any discomfort; salad dressings or butter on your potato may. Fortunately, we have solved this problem for you. Take a look at the recipe sectioon in Part VII to learn how to make no-oil salad dressings. The oil has been replaced with water and xanthan gum- a natural, flavorless thickener tolerated by everyone and available at health-food stores.

Good News: The microflora in fermented foods produce B vitamins. B-3, B-6, and B-12 play a critical role in the assimilations of fats. Once your inner ecosystem is established with lots of vitamin B-producing friendly bacteria, you'll find it easier to digest fats."

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Phoiph
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Nefferdun...

"...Phiiph, if you were positive on bands 23 and 41, then it is likely you had/have PR. I know pathogens do not like oxygen..."

I am not convinced that certain bands are definitive for FL1953/PR, but I had the implicated bands of 23 and 41, and very low CD57 (in addition to the suggestive re-interpretation by Dr. F of the original blood smear)...

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surprise
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I also don't know of a valid reference for band 23 and 41 meaning protomyxzoa -
I was PCR positive for Borrelia, and one of my WB
did have band 23 and 41 positive,

but 23 is Borrelia outer surface protein, and 41 the flagella.

UK I am not using LiVon Lab, but Researched Nutritional orange cream- I've used lipo glut in the past, never the lipo C with it-

Next purchase I may source from this article about adrenals,
seems to pertain to me, and not comfortable yet taking a glandular, as I haven't had specific testing (and thyroid always tests fine)

http://www.lymebook.com/adrenal-fatigue-hypothyroidism

I own this book referenced above, think it's excellent-

--------------------
Lyme positive PCR blood, and
positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011.
low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012.
Update 7/16- After extensive treatments,
doing okay!

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nefferdun
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I looked for that reference about bands 23 and 41 once before. When I cleaned out my bookmarks I probably accidentally deleted it. But I am sure I read it in a reputable place. When I remember something (which takes a lot of effort to do!), then I am pretty sure about it.

It also said low CD57, like Phoiph said, so in my book, you had/have it. As it is supposed to be incurable, then you are controlling it with the HBOT. Do you eat normally?

That is interesting about fats girl.

Greta, the tests for both toxoplasmosis and bartonella were abut $200. I don't know which lab he sent them too because my husband took the cat. I hope the lab is sensitive enough to pick it up if he has it. If he does I will get the other animals checked as well.

Another thing bartonella can cause in cats is gum disease and sores in the mouth - even pimples around the outside or the mouth. The diabetic cat had an infection around his mouth and the vet said it was like acne. He gave him an antibiotic. That was just a few months ago. One of the other cats had inflamed gums. Bart can also give them uveitis.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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Phoiph
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Here's the only reference/quote I can find related to PR and bands 41 and 23:

"...Bb Western Blot may show positive bands 41 and 23...DEFINITIVE DIAGNOSIS BY: specific staining technique with confirmation..."

In other words, according to Dr. F, having bands 23 and 41 (IgG/IgM not specified), may be suggestive of PR, but is not diagnostic; further tests are required...

I realize that PR is supposed to be "incurable", but I don't believe that. According to Dr. F, there are many people walking around with PR that are asymptomatic.

I believe it is just one more organism that may take up residence in our system, but becomes opportunistic only when our defenses are down with something as serious and immune-suppressing as Lyme, for example...

Regarding diet...I eat a very clean diet...lots of good fats (oily fish, avocados, eggs, etc.), bone broths, no gluten, no processed foods, organic fruits/vegetables, limited (sheep/goat) dairy, fermented foods, dark chocolate...:)

I could only tolerate a few foods when I was really ill (still maintained good fats), but added more foods back as I became well with mHBOT...

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GretaM
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OK. $200 isn't bad.

2 of my cats have just had surgery for gum disease [Frown]

Perhaps they can handle bartonella, but I sure can't

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Catgirl
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Thanks Ukcarry. [Smile] I need to knock this bug back more (need to get my doc on board).

Surprise, my symptoms that arise from fats/oils are the same symptoms that Dr. C has found in her patients with proto. I don't think I have gallbladder problems, at least not that I know of. My docs have checked my gallbladder before and found nothing (no pain or issues there).

I also have bands 23 and 41.

Neff, I'm trying the cistus too! [Smile]

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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ukcarry
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Thanks, Surprise. When you say that you are off all treatments, do you mean that you are just taking the two Liponano products at the moment?
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MichaelTampa
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quote:
Originally posted by nefferdun:
As it is supposed to be incurable, then you are controlling it with the HBOT. Do you eat normally?

This seems to be no more than just an assumption to me. I respect Dr. F's work, but to discover something and then just a couple/few years later be SURE that there is NOTHING that can be done to get over it for good ... it is just speculation. Aside from the fact that there really is no way to prove a negative, to make such a conclusion in that short of a period of time just borders on ridiculous, in my opinion.
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surprise
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I have to say I agree M Tampa.
In the view for myself, it is another part of a parasite issue,
low fat diet is detrimental to me personally.

UK, I am not implying the lipo combo is holding me up or in lieu of- I have been off Lyme and co treatments for awhile,

what remains are digestive and gut issues (not caused from antibiotics). At the moment they feel severe, and I'm getting it checked further. Glut and C are hopefully help to heal.

--------------------
Lyme positive PCR blood, and
positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011.
low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012.
Update 7/16- After extensive treatments,
doing okay!

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Phoiph
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Quotes from an interview with Dr. F. regarding PR:

"...So we think a lot of normal people have it, but maybe genetically inclined to where in their immune systems handle it, maybe diet and exercise play a role, their own immune systems and their genetics play a role in this..."

"...we think it is a ubiquitous pathogen all over the world..."

"...This disease has been around forever..."

http://www.iadvocatehealth.org/protozoal_infection0.aspx

Not to say it is not a factor in people with challenged immune systems, but it doesn't sound "incurable" to me, when it is so commonly found and asymptomatic in the general population...

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Catgirl
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I agree it probably has been around forever. I don't really know what makes it advance--maybe just an overwhelmed body breaking down. I also have detox issues, so that makes it more difficult. I believe going after parasites is key though. I like that HBOT is working for you Phioph. How often are you doing it now?

Neff, I'm happy to hear you have gotten dramatically better! It could be a combo of chelation, adding in minerals, adrenal support, vitamin C, or even just the Alinia. I feel better on alinia. Either way, right on. :)

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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Phoiph
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Thanks, Catgirl...

Even though I am well, I still use my chamber regularly, as I continue to notice benefits.

As I have said before, knowing what I know now about what mHBOT does for the body in general, I would incorporate it into my lifestyle whether or not I had gone through Lyme...

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Carmen
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you can purchase lipsomal c at www.letstalkheath.com and www.livonlabs.com

I make my own lipsomal c and had not cosidered that I could make lipsomal EDTA. Might try that in the future.

My doc says that marcozymes are the best for breaking down biofilm and to break open the lyme cyst. Be sure you are on something that can kill the lyme if you take this stuff for they will come out of the broken cysts. Since he has lots of experience of looking directly at biofilms through dark field live blood analysis I'd consider his recommendations carefully. They can be purchased through his clinic and they are only availble through professional offices, not on the net or in stores as far as I know.

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nefferdun
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I am so glad you found that interview Phoiph. I think a low CD57 without borellia flares and positive bands 23 and 41 are pretty conclusive. The man wants money for his lab. I wouldn't bother with his testing.

I got the Bactrim and started it. I am only taking it once a day. I may add in the Alinia as it was so effective. I am just timid about taking a lot of drugs without supervision although in the past the marijuana doctor didn't give a hoot what I was taking.

I agree with Michael - there has to have a cure. If our bodies could fight it off for decades, like he suggests, then it can fight it off again.

Catgirl, I hope the Cictus works for us. My fat binders are helping. I don't have to be so strict with the fat. There are a lot of things that just taste so much better with a little fat in the form of nuts or seeds or avocado.

Greta, I'm sorry your cats both had surgery. I was looking for pictures of their gums and found this about how bartonella causes uveitis.
http://www.revophth.com/content/d/retinal_insider/c/27334/

Scroll down a little ways and there is a picture plus info about bartonella I never heard before.

http://www.columbusvetcare.com/blog/?paged=10

Cat Bartonella possess hair-like structures found on the bacteria’s surface w hich allow the bacteria to stick to, and penetrate, red blood cells and the cells that make up the walls of the capillaries.

I bought a book about making liposomal vitamin C. I will post it in case anyone wants to try it.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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nefferdun
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Make your own Liposomal Vitamin C

What you need

Distilled water
Non GMO Lecithin Granules (soy or sunflower)
Sodium Asorbate Powder (no other kind)

Jewelry Ultrasonic Cleaner $24
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Ultrasonic-Jewelry-Eyeglass-Cleaning/dp/B001DKDAVW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391482672&sr=8-1&keywords=ultrasonic+jewelry+cleaner

Stir 3 TB lecithin in 1 cup warm water. Blend about 5-10 minutes in blender until homogenized. It goes faster if you let it soak first for half an hour to an hour. It turns a creamy bright yellow.

Dissolve 1 TB Sodium Asorbate powder in 1/2 cup of water. Add to lecithin and blend.

Pour both into the ultrasonic Cleaner and turn on. The small model only runs for 3 minutes so you will have to turn it on about ten times. Stir frequently with wood or plastic (not metal).

This book says to do the ultrasound for 30 minutes. There are videos on YouTube where they only do it for 6-8 minutes. There are larger cleaners but this one works fine.

The liposomes you buy are much thicker than this and I was confused if it was working. She said you can increase the thickness by adding less water or increasing the amount of lecithin/viatmin C but keep the same ratio. The consistency of this is like cream. Someon on YouTube used heaping TBs and his consistency was more like egg yolk.

This stores in the frig for 2 weeks. It is unstable, becoming unencapsulated so it is best to make small batches.

How to test for encapsulation
Add 1/4 ts sodium bicarbonate to 1 oz distilled water and mix
Pour 4 oz of liposome into glass

Pour the sodium bicarbonate mixture into the liposome vitamin C.

Foam occurs when the un encapsulated vitamin C reacts with the soda.

1/2" foam = 50% incapsulation
3/8 " = 60% incapsulation
1/8 " = 75% incapsulation

You can still use this - don'g throw it out. If fact if you only have pharmaceutical pure ascorbate, you have to add sodium bicarbonate to it so it is not too acidic.

--------------------
old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot

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