Topic: Is Biaxin still used for Bart? Positive feedback?
TNT
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posted
I remember having a pretty strong response to this drug the only time I took it. It's a consideration again.
I have read here that Clindamycin hits bart, too.
What has been your experiences with these two, particularly Clarithromycin? Does anyone have some positive experiences in that it helped with bart?
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
Biaxin is a much better choice than Zithro for Bart. Zithro stops being active against Bart after 1 month. The Bart develops resistance.
The next step to treat Bart is to add Rifampin. Based on my experiences, treat until two months symptom free or else it will relapse. Bart has been my most problematic infection throughout my whole treatment...4 years so far...
High dose Rifampin (double the normal dose) is best, with Biaxin. The whole process of getting rid of Bart can take up to nine months or longer. That is what the Bart experts are saying.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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TNT
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Thanks so much RC! I feel like it may be time to layer on something else for my BLO....
I'm already on low dose Rifampin and low dose Doxy.
I very possibly may have a touch of porphyria and that complicates the treatment, esp. with using the Rifampin. I will say that the Rifampin has helped me the most since going on it.
Just like you said, Zithro has an immediate benefit, but then doesn't seem to be hitting it. Same thing with Bactrim.
I guess we need to decide if clarithro. or clinda. is the better choice to add. Clinda. would be helpful for the lyme and protozoa, but am debating if it will have as much effect against the BLO. I like your suggestion of Rif. with Biaxin.
It is more likely that my BLO is brucella...but the blood testing has been so unhelpful (but bio-resonance testing did pick it up).
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
Keep in mind that biaxin increases rifampin levels significantly. So if you're already taking a double dose (2x600mg/day) you may get serious side effects. But perhaps that is just the reason why the combo is effective for bart...
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
TNT, I'm doing 1200 Rifampin and 1000 Biaxin. I haven't had any side effects other than herxing when I first started the combo.
I also suspected that I may have Brucella, but I actually have 2 strains of Bart. I had done years of Mino, Zithro, Septra and Plaquenil. It did not eradicate it.
When I started back on Rifampin I had a huge never ending herx. I did 600 for the first 3-4 months. I was taking it with Mino, Zithro, and Plaquenil. I switched my LLMD to a Bart specialist and he put me on the combo I'm on now.
It turns out that I also tested positive for the Protozoa. From what I understand Rifampin and Biaxin hits Bart and will also hit Protozoa to a certain extent.
If it doesn't clear the Protozoa, he then uses Ivermectin. I don't know what the dose is, all I know is that it's a high dose to be taken once a week.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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TNT
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S13,
I appreciate the info. Increasing my Rifampin levels may be helpful since I am on a low dose. I'm just glad it doesn't decrease the Rifampin levels.
RC1,
I sent you a PM. Thanks for sharing what has/ has not helped you. It sounds like you are finally seeing some light of day!
I am ready to go with some stromectol if the Biaxin helps. Just need to see if my doc will agree to adding the Biaxin first.
I just don't have peace about trying the stromectol before hitting the BLO a little harder. I have hard-learned lessons from past experience with antiparasiticals.
I definitely feel that BLO is my worst enemy and must be under control or eradicated before hitting the foundational pathogens.
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
I do feel like I'm on the right path now. I just recently have had completely symptom free days, which is a first for me. I felt freaking great
I don't think that BLO and Bartonella are the same animal. It seems that some people who have suspected BLO have resolution in a few months with Levaquin or a Rifampin combo.
Bartonella is a beast. It takes a long time to get rid of it.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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posted
How is your liver doing with that combo? Do you take anything to protect the liver?
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
I am taking NAC 2 caps 3x a day. I will be changing to Liver Protect when I get it.
When I first started back on Rifampin my enzymes went up, but they normalized shortly after.
From what I understand, that happening means that it's working.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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GretaM
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posted
Not sure.
Clindy is for bart LO or babs my doc said.
Dr M (the retired Canadian lyme doc), was a huge fan of biaxin in any combo.
Also if you haven't, maybe ask your doc about the CSA tincture.
Cryptolepsis is good for bart lo and babs lo, plus strep.
Posts: 4358 | From British Columbia, Canada | Registered: Jun 2013
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TNT
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Man, RC, that's so AWESOME! I hope those symptom free days become permanent!
Some of the reason I started this thread to ask about Biaxin is because it is listed as an ok drug for those with porphyria. I'm looking for good bart drugs that won't increase porphyrins.
RC, several years ago I was on Levaquin. That definitely helped, but was not curative.
Bartonella IS a BEAST. Also think it is an unrecognized epidemic. For many people (like myself years ago) it is subclinical (where they can still work/ function), but is nonetheless affecting them physically and mentally.
I think it is hard to know what is Bart and what is BLO or Brucella. They are all in the same family and symptoms overlap so much.
I think one must address the dominant infection and then work towards the foundational ones such as parasites.
Some practitioners believe if you eliminate (or try to) the foundational pathogen (ie parasites, protozoa), then the other ones go away much more quickly.
That seems true. I say try to because....if your greatest load is bacterial or viruses, your body will have to address that dominant load all at once when you go killing those foundational pathogens (Russian doll phenomena). And, I think that is where the problem is for some of us. Our bodies are already overwhelmed trying to address those bacteria and viruses.
That's my theory. So it makes sense to get them under control first, otherwise, damage is going to occur. That is, unless your dominant infection is parasites or protozoa.
Thanks for listening to my rambling.
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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surprise
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RC1, really glad for you! :-)
My repeat: I absolutely loathe Bartonella. I don't have pets, and recently was at a friends house, and their cat jumped on my lap, and would.not.get.off.me.
I was dying inside. I kept thinking it knows I have Bart H and feels the affinity. Yes, I'm that far gone.
Anyway, Biaxin has been a miracle this year for my daughter. First time she ever took a treatment antibiotic, it was daily Azith., and that was a miracle, but only for 4 weeks, then huge backslide.
Honestly tho, I also took Biaxin for my tx, Levaquin, Cipro for shorter pulses, every herb and tincture known for Bart. Rifampin I mistakenly got pulsed, and then felt resistance.
I think for deeply entrenched cases, RC1 protocol can be the ticket. Bloody grueling tho. But so's Bart. I HAVE lasting improvements from treatment- but 100%, no.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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randibear
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biaxin was a godsend for me.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Increasing the rifampin dose was associated with a more than dose-proportional increase in the mean AUC0-24 and Cmax of rifampin without affecting the incidence of serious adverse effects.
Interesting!
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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CD57
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where did the info come from that Zith is not good after one month? Is that Dr M's clinical observation, RC1?
Biaxin has a much shorter half life and I think that Rifampin takes down the levels of it, whereas it doesn't do that to Zith.
Does the 1200 Rif have to be the whole time?
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CD57
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Also apparently doxy does not get into the RBC where the bacteria are! My friend just forwarded me a paper that said this. Why are the docs using meds that can't get to where they need to?
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Actually Rifampin increases Biaxin levels. Yes, CD57 that is Dr. M's clinical observation.
I had been on Zithro for years, it really didn't have much action against Bart at all. I was on it with Mino, Septra and Plaquenil. These things help get the load down to a certain extent.
But after almost four years of treating, I still had a pretty big Bart load.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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Perhaps the addition with isoniazid makes a difference, but i think rxlist is wrong in this case. Rifampin speeds up metabolism thus normally results in a decrease of other medications.
But i still agree that biaxin and rifampin is a very good combination for bart.
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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That is amazing, I can't believe how much stronger it makes the Rifampin! Thanks for clarifying that Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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OMG! I have used rifampin before, 2x300mg/day together with mino, and got almost no response.
Ive now upped the dosage to 2x600mg/day and use it with biaxin, and its amazing! For the first time in 2 years treating this horrible disease, i feel like im making progress instead of backsliding My neurological functions are improving. Concentration levels rising, i feel more connected to the world, and it feels like freakin magic! Still a long road to go, and i do get actual herxing now for the first time. Lots of twitching, fatigue, muscle aches and muscle nervousness/restlessness. But in the morning and evening i feel like there is real progress. Nausea is not too bad.
Bacteremia on giemsa blood slides is steadily decreasing
One thing ive noticed is that my urine is now more orange, and it stays orange. Previously when i took the rifampin with mino i only had orange-like urine for the first few days and then my urine would get lighter again, pretty much normal. Not this time. I think it has to do a lot with the biaxin, since it suppresses the effect of Rifampin speeding up the metabolizing of medication. Also i make sure to keep more separated from food. Im aiming at at least 2 hours before breakfast and dinner. Fat decreases the absorption, so keep that even further away from the rifampin. It is actually the enzymes in the fatty bile that metabolizes rifampin in your intestines, and when it is metabolized it can no longer be absorbed in your blood.
So, take home message; make sure your urine stays orange while on rifampin!
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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I just wanted to add a couple of things. First do not stop and start Rifampin the Bart can develop resistance to it. Also it is good to take the abx with enzymes.
I'm using Serrapeptase and Lumbrokinase. I started with 2 of each once a day.
It's a long haul to treat it. Can be 9 months or more. Also always take Rifampin with another abx because it can develop resistance alone.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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TNT
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RC1,
Rifampin speeds up the metabolism of other drugs and so I was under the impression to always take it by itself.
So, I take my doxy and biaxin together, and approx. a couple hours later on a fairly empty stomach, I take my Rifampin. Is this not the best way to take these?
Send a private reply if need be.
S13,
Are you saying that you take your Rif and biaxin together?
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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TNT
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Originally posted by S13:
"I think it has to do a lot with the biaxin, since it suppresses the effect of Rifampin speeding up the metabolizing of medication."
So, do the biaxin and Rif have to be taken together to get the suppression effect? If the biaxin is already in the bloodstream when one takes the rif, wouldn't that have the same suppressing effect?
Originally posted by RC1:
"Also always take Rifampin with another abx because it can develop resistance alone."
Do you mean that you should never use Rif as monotherapy? Or,
Are you saying that the Rif should be taken with a second ABX (preferably biaxin?)at the same time you ingest the rifampin?
I hope my questions make sense here, because I have my sleep meds in me and I can be rather confusing with their effects on me.
These kind of questions about the dosing of these drugs makes me want to switch to a doc who is more communicative and has his ducks all lined up in a row that makes sense! And one who uses these drugs for bart.
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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Yes i take the biaxin and rifampin together. I dont think it is necessary to take them at exact the same time. The process of speeding up the enzymes by rifampin is slow and develops in 1-2 weeks time. So spacing the meds for a few hours should work fine. I take the rifampin first thing in the morning and take the biaxin 2 hours later at breakfast. I repeat this in the evening.
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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I'm just saying no mono therapy with Rifampin. The abx can be taken at different times during the day. Rifampin needs to be taken on an empty stomach.
I take the Rifampin on an empty stomach (taken with food decreases serum levels by 30%). Then I wait an hour or longer and the take the Biaxin with food.
Posts: 845 | From Northeast | Registered: May 2011
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CD57
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S13, is there no herx on that high a dose, did you go right in at that dose?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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I did a few days of 2x300mg/day, and then upped to 2x600mg/day. Yes there is some herxing, but not to bad. But they are definitely bart herxes. Muscle twitching and foot pain has increased a lot. Along with fatigue, muscle weakness and restlessness.
I think im just one of those persons who doesnt get high levels of rifampin in their blood. This study seems to indicate this is not uncommon, especially if you are of male gender: http://aac.asm.org/content/56/5/2357.full
quote:Most of this Peruvian study population exhibited rifampin pharmacokinetics different from those conventionally reported, with delayed absorption and low plasma concentrations, independent of the presence of an HIV or DM comorbidity.
quote:The rifampin Cmax was significantly lower in male patients than in female patients (3.3 versus 6.3 mg/liter; P < 0.001).
I think it is because some people have a more active CYP450 system (specifically CYP3A4) which is responsible for the breakdown of rifampin. And this partially takes place in the intestines before the drug is absorbed. Once metabolized, it cannot get absorbed in the bloodstream.
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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Im wondering if grapefruit juice can also be used to downregulate CYP3A4 and improve absorption of rifampin? Basically the same effect as biaxin?
This could be helpful for people who cant absorb enough of the rifampin without the need of taking mega doses orally.
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Taking 500mg 2x/day, started once a day for 3 days then added the second a few days ago. Cannot even function, so sick and the disgusting toxic waste taste never goes away, so gross.
Posts: 219 | From pacific nw | Registered: Jun 2009
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TNT
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joahsark,
Perhaps you upped your dose too quickly. Don't go so fast at first that you have to abort. Of course, you need to work this out with your doc, but I would be careful... Biaxin can really work the GI over.
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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CD57
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Yeah I plan to ask for baby doses and work up. Have never done this before. LLMD always RXed standard doses which made me sick.
S13 - i think the mHBOT would be helpful in getting the rifampin into the bloodstream etc.....forces perfusion/circulation of med?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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surprise
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'Day 4' always seems to be the worst, too, when starting something new. Detox all you can, bowels moving, etc.
My dd has 2 1/2 days left of Bactrim (for specified reason/ nasal bacteria found) and I cannot wait to put her back on Biaxin. She's regressed off it.
Then we are suppose to add rifampin. Quite scared, will be chopping it up in tiny bits to go very slow. And checking liver/ CBC frequently.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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Fortunately for me it hasn't effected my GI much, BUT my head (brain swelling, pressure, pain and dizziness)more than makes up for it. Wrote in my symptom journal today that I feel like I'm dying. Cannot fathom adding another on top of this.
Been through this many times before but not sure how long I can be strong enough to endure this time. Literally minute to minute.
This shouldn't be expected of a human over and over and over, 20 years undiagnosed, 2 years treating. Doubt there is an end in sight. Wishing you all great strength!!
Posts: 219 | From pacific nw | Registered: Jun 2009
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surprise
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Joahsark, maybe back down the dose- cut in 1/2 the night dose, etc.
And what are you doing for detox? It's a big piece of it. I spend a lot of time, money and effort on detox for my daughter while she's in treatment.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by CD57: S13 - i think the mHBOT would be helpful in getting the rifampin into the bloodstream etc.....forces perfusion/circulation of med?
TBH i never noticed any improvement from mHBOT with my bart symptoms. At the time i started mHBOT i was on rifampin 2x300mg/day with minocyclin for over 2 months.
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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S13, how long did you stay on HBOT? Did you dive daily? Thanks. There is a thread on here with truly miracle results with brain involvement. Hoping not to waste a lot of money. Thanks!
Posts: 219 | From pacific nw | Registered: Jun 2009
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Ive done 200+hours at 1.5ATA, daily 1 hour. From my experience i can tell it works for borrelia, but not so much for babesia and bartonella. My neurological symptoms are caused by bartonella (or BLO) and they have not improved at all by mhbot. Ive even tried going off antibiotics for a couple of months, just doing mhbot, but that made me slide backwards eventually. I was developing new neurological symptoms, and bacteremia in the blood was clearly increasing.
Now im back on abx and my symptoms are improving again. Still a long road to go though...
Posts: 381 | From The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2013
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Wow, so you've been diving for more than six months with and without abx every day with no brain changes?? So disappointing!
Wishing you strength for your continued journey.
Posts: 219 | From pacific nw | Registered: Jun 2009
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WPinVA
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Just wondering if anyone who posted has any updates on your progress?
I'm now on Ceftin, Biaxin and just added in Rifampin. Still ramping up but already feel some changes - headaches, restless, very irritable.
Posts: 1737 | From Virginia | Registered: Aug 2011
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