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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » My experience with a Dr. K Practitioner.

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Author Topic: My experience with a Dr. K Practitioner.
lymeboy
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I recently accompanied my GF to a Dr. K Practitioner in my general area. It was an interesting experience. I'm left with more questions than answers after the initial visits and I'm wondering if this is worth doing. I'm really split on it, as some things felt a little weird during our visit. I'd really love some feedback on this subject, because with this type of treatment you DO need to have an open mind and some things may seem very weird. Still, I cannot fight my initial feelings, which are not bad. Just mixed.

The Doc was nice enough. Had a bit of a strange bedside manner. Started by asking us both what we knew about things like ART testing and Dr. K. type treatments.

First we used an "oversized mouse" looking device that was hooked up to a pc. A program called "NES Pro Vision" read "imbalances" in just about every area of her body. This was described as a device and software that was reading her "light pathways". It was 100% accurate in describing her problem areas, which I found very strange. How could this program do in 30 seconds what can cost thousands and take weeks in blood testing, scans and the like? It didn't give diagnosis, but I think it described "blocked pathways" or something to that effect.

Then the art testing. This blew my mind. From the start, the doc had me put my arm up and resist her pushing it down. She couldn't. Then gave me a vial of something to hold in the other hand. Now I couldn't fight her strength no matter how hard I tried. It was very strange. She used a pair of clear cubes, and a lens of some sort. The lens went on one of the cubes and sometimes came off to be used on certain areas of GF's body. The other cube had various small vials on it. They also put small vials on her chest, to a varying degree, depending on how she was responding to the testing.

During the testing there was a lot of talk about the past and her inner child. There were 2 occasions that she immediately started crying right as it seemed a pathway was becoming unblocked. It felt very real and as if the doc had unearthed some very unhealthy things, though I don't know exactly what the hell happened or what they were doing.
I was invited to be the "in-between" person. The way it works is the doc has an assistant place a hand on the patients leg, and hold her other arm out stiff and strong. Then the doc will hold her own hand over certain areas of patients body, and with her other hand, trying to push down on the assistant's arm. It looked very weird but it really worked.
They also put some diodes on her neck halfway through. They were pulsing I believe magnetic waves into her during the testing.

The problem is that I don't understand what happened here. The doc gave us some explanations. But It's very hard for me to wrap my head around. My gf's reactions were proof that SOMETHING was happening, but this is so much different than going to a MD and I really am still trying to figure this all out.

So we had a decent visit, but I felt that things were a bit loosey goosey, and non descript. We were not given a protocol. We were first asked to commit to 5 weeks, twice/week. My gf would report to the doc twice/week after work for treatments. I think part of these treatments are laser treatments. GF can not tolerate abx at all.

The price is not bad at all. Her rates are better than any LLMD I've seen, though this is a gigantic departure from any LLMD I've ever seen. And she's seeing her twice/ week.

This is the biggest weird part for me. And it is why my gf has not yet committed to returning. The first thing she asked her to do was Urine therapy. It's not exactly drinking pee. It's more like making a homeopathic out of it. you pee in a container, shake, empty part of it, put more water. shake again, empty more water, repeat six times and drink it.
This is a really strange thing to be asked to do after meeting someone for the first time. especially when you're shelling out a few hundred bucks for the treatment.
I told my gf I'd do it first to see if it's gross and frankly I am curious to know. I don't really care anymore about anything but getting well. I mean, I'm putting coffee in my butt already, I might as well drink a little pee so I can die with no dignity whatsoever.

But really. This seemed like a good visit, though kind of vague in terms of diagnosis or protocol. And urine therapy right away was really a nutty way to start.

This doc was very insistent on saying "I need you to be 100% on board with me if I can have you as a PARTNER". She didn't say patient.

Another thing that irks me with this approach is the theme of "Wanting to get well". The Dr K approach uses that line. You may deep down be attached to feeling this way and will not allow you to get well. It doesn't exactly feel like victim blaming, or a cop out. But it does make me wonder why this sort of thing even needs to be said. OF COURSE I WANT TO GET WELL DAMNIT I"M CONSIDERING DRINKING PEE! But the idea is that a deep part of you is reliant on the illness or feeling bad because you have for so long and you've created a lifestyle around it. I struggle with this idea. It's valid, but maybe a lesser doc would use this as a cop out.

The last thing that I was on the fence about is that this doc claimed to have had Lyme twice and cured it both times. She was a chiropracter and when she got Lyme, she discovered Dr K and the rest was history. She sounded almost overconfident that she could get us both well. Even though I was just watching and asking questions. CURED????

Look, I have no clue about the Dr K world. Some things I've read are outstanding and make so much sense. Personally, using Dr. K's protocol and following that with Salt-c and parastroy has turned a lot of corners for me. So I have a lot of faith in this approach, but I know nothing about it, which leaves us open to be taken for a ride.
I could really use some help with this!

**edited name of LLMD**

[ 10-18-2014, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]

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jlcd1
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your PM box is full...

I've heard of the urine therapy being effective but i thought you injected it back into yourself, didn't know you had to drink it. Can you PM me with this doctor's info please. I know there's one in penn, but he has a yr's waiting list.

Thanks

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Catgirl
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Your GF's Dr. K practitioner sounds very much like the one I saw, but mine was not a chiro. It's awesome that your GF (and possibly you?) are trying this route. I'm always trying something new.

It is 360 degrees different than going to an MD. There is so much more to getting well than just abx. If only people could open their minds to energy healing. Unfortunately not everyone can grasp it due to their belief system. Energy is something we cannot see, but we definitely can feel. Energy healers can find many issues a patient has. Your GF's doc unblocked her and released something holding back her from healing, and yes, it's real.

I'm not sure if I'd do the urine thing for you, mostly because it was prescribed for your GF. Your body may need something different right now. I haven't done this though, so don't know the result (wasn't prescribed to me). Did your GF's doc tell her what it would do?

Cured is not a word that even the best lyme docs use. They know that lyme is a master at hiding, so they use the word "well or better." And wanting to get well is a big hurdle that people may not be aware of. Very often subconsciously some people want to remain sick for various reasons they are not even aware of. Consider a workers comp patient. Psychologically there is some pay off. So IMO they tell the patient that he or she is cured or can be cured to help cover any psychological issues a patient may or may not have or just needs to get rid of.

I think the reason her doc needs your GF to be 100% on board is because if she's not, the treatment won't work. Patients can block their own healing and not even know it. This is why energy healing is so important.

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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Brussels
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First time I've been to my practioners, I was in total doubt too. But as no one else treated me (no lyme diagnosis, but told 'cured' after 2 weeks doxy), I had no choice, or let myself die (I was not far from it...).

I went to the right hand of dr. K in Germany, she was weird too. But she saw all my infections, babesia, bart, ehrlichia, ... She saw my teeth causing problems. She found some mind blockade I though I never had (but when she treated me for such blockades, I felt better).

In a week or two, I felt coming back to the world of living. Then I visited my lyme doc, another K's follower, for the first time.

Very different ways to treat, but they all use ART (yes, with the plexi-glass cubes that make the body signals stronger, and the camera filter to see in which direction your organs emit light), his specialty is homeopathy.

You can 'see' immediately cancer cells with the filter, for example!!!!

From total skeptic, I saw both practioners were saying many similar things (the exact two teeth blocking my healing, for example, which organs were mostly sick, which infections were still active, etc).

Well, not 100% the same, but pretty similar. I gave them no hints, so they were reading something from my own body energy, right?

And then I went alternatively to one, and the other, until I got to remission many times. I had the problem of being constantly bitten by ticks and of getting again sick with or without a new bite.

My daughter got bitten a year after me, and fell pretty sick too. And got re-bitten, and got again sick, then had encephalitis from a new bite... Hell after hell. These practioners supported us when they could.

We are both lyme free after about 4-5 years of treatment, going to them, and after photon therapy (done by myself, using energy testing I learned, alone and doing ART too).

We are still being bitten (my daughter just got a tick today, and I lost the tick in my kitchen!!).

We just treat a bit the bite, and just go on living. This year, we got many bites already (me, at least 5), the last one last week. So far, so good. I think our immune systems may be working a bit better...

What takes AGES to find out with blood exams, and other exams, it can take seconds sometimes with ART. It's like being X-rayed. I felt naked every time I went to visit my practioners.

You can't say they hit the point 100% of the times, but about 80%, I feel.

And when you feel improvement, constantly, that is the ONLY proof that the treatment works. In my opinion.

If you learn ART yourself, and you can test it on and on, for years, and you see how the thing works, there is no doubt then. ART is a BIG help, it is years-light faster than anything else involving lab tests and guesses, and that is why dr. K can 'cure' so many people in less time than others.

Of course, he's not God, and he keeps telling, that the patients that continue coming to him are the proof he has to continue searching, looking for new solutions. But he never gives up!

But, if you learn all the Psyco-kinesiological method they use and the basic ART testing, you'll be amazed to see what this method can accomplish. I was baffled!

Years, maybe decades of psychotherapy, maybe can be treated in a matter of days. Dr. K is also a psychologist (he did two universities). He said PK is not a substitute for psychotherapy, but as for myself, it is MUCH better than psychotherapy!!! It's much less invasive, and light years faster!

What they accomplish with EFT-like treatments or with eye movements, and colors, is truly amazing, I find.

You do feel the difference, it's profound to the point that you forget what was the trouble you wanted to treat (a deep fear, some blockade, some tic, a problem with someone...).

Anyway, only time can tell. I think it also depends on the practioner, and if you are willing to do what they say (for example, when they say you got to tap on certain points and say something, or only tap after taking a medicine, you gotta do it, or you'll never know).

Many people don't tap, because they think it won't work. Amazingly, it is the tapping that mostly heal the body, not the medicine. Only after years doing these stuff, you'll know about that. Dr. K. says, patients that don't tap, don't get well.

Dr. K's treatment was THE discovery of the last decade for me. It opened a huge field, full of possibilities, and hope for lyme treatment and other chronic diseases.

I don't think the majority of people have the slightest idea what it is, and remain suffering, sick for so long, hopeless, taking antibiotics forever, doing so many exams forever, never getting really better.

I'm glad other people are trying it! I hope you don't close your mind and help your gf out of lyme.

Some people go once or twice and say it doesn't work. How many times they go to other docs to say it doesn't work?

As you said above, the practioner told your gf about things that took years and thousands of dollars to discover, just with a machine (my practioners don't use a machine, but if it helps, why not?).

That is the basic difference using ART and energy testing: it just goes faster, much faster than any other treatment.

I find funny people don't use the word 'cured'. I'm getting bitten by ticks, I'm lyme free for MORE than 5 years, treatment free too. What should I say? I'm still sick?

No way. I no longer have lyme, despite being still bitten. I don't feel I'm sick.

I say I'm cured. Temporarily or not, I don't know.

People who have herpes don't say 'Look guys, I'm still sick with herpes, even though I have no symptoms for years!.

You say 'cured' just because you feel lyme is more in the past, and is not coming back to bother us.

My daughter still has some relapses every 2, 3 years (well, she gets often bitten too). But each relapse is treated in maximum 3 weeks (with photons, just for about a total of 30 minutes of photons!!!) then it goes dormant. She has symptoms for a couple of days only (knee pain), then nothing else, until the next relapse (or new infection, in years).

If you feel you are cured, you put lyme in the past, and look at the future. You feel positive about both your present life, your health, and make plans for the future.

If you say 'I'm in remission', well, you live with fear of falling sick again, every day. You live in the past, and look only in the past, and fear it. That alone, may make you fall sick again, because that influences your immune system negatively!!!

Well guys, I'm cured.

My lyme doc ordered the photon device last month, as he saw me last time after 5 years (I'm treating teeth with him now), and I'm still fine.

That alone made him buy the PE1, because I was his worst patient back then (he said!)!!!!

He follows EVERYTHING DR. K. does for many many years. He is the ONLY guy I trust to treat my teeth, jaw infections...

I hope you guys don't give up, and I hope your practioner is good!!!! Wishing you good luck!!

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Ellen101
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I saw someone who was also a Dr K trained practitioner. While she didn't do the urine thing I found her approach very strange. Some of it sounds similar in regards to the whole laser/ART. She had an assistant that acted as the in between person. I personally found the whole thing very strange and somewhat unreliable.

I was also told I would need to do daily chanting several times a day in regards to talking myself into getting well....

The strangest thing for me was when I needed to undress and stand in front of her while she shined a red laser type of device up and down my body.

The whole thing made me very uncomfortable and I stopped going.

As far as drinking pee that would definitly be something I would not be open to.

Unfortunately in our plight to get well we can easily fall victim

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Keebler
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lymeboy,

Various practitioners can misinterpret, misrepresent and also put forth their own biases. I am certain that Dr. K does not intend any patient to be blamed. But his thoughts on addresses all levels can be taken to extremes that he never intended. Not all who practice his protocol are in perfect step.

"Victim blaming" can be pretty harsh from some otherwise intelligent and well meaning practitioners. I've encountered that from a couple, one who blamed me for not improving because I failed to look deep enough into some past life where I must have done something bad so as to be so very ill now.

Turns out, he was not really LL at all and the herbs he gave me were not really lyme specific at all, nor did he take into account coinfections.

I was devastated. Any kind of that "you have to WANT to get better" stuff is an insult, IMO. It got to be so prevalent for a while here with many NDs that I started to ask about that in any phone interviews as I was scouting for a new ND.

That was before LL NDs were out there. (And no LLMDs around).

Still, as with those who are trained by Dr. K, some can be heavier handed with this than others. When so, it does the patient a huge disservice for them to be so biased that you may fit into that category of "not wanting" it badly enough deep down.

When it crosses the line, that's when I get out of their canoe. If it's just rocking the boat, speak up and set them straight. It can be abusive and we should not have to take that.

Ultimately, if they are of the mindset that - in some way - you brought this upon yourself -- get out. Just get out and find someone better suited to your full needs. I don't care how much other stuff they may know that is good, that kind of attitude can be so pervasive as to bias (even poison) the whole treatment plan.
-

[ 10-20-2014, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Of course, that is not to say there are not various layers to healing - because mind / body / emotion / spirit matters do intertwine and all need attention.

But that is very different from some of the kinds & degrees of "victim blaming" that I've encountered over the years. Very different.

It's best to always talk about this if there is any question to the meaning of certain statements directed at you or your level of desire for wellness. Sometimes, words just need clarification. Sometimes, we just need to walk.
-

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lpkayak
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Hey keeb...that first paragr a ph about victim blaming was like a hug to me

One son loudly told me the only reasin i was sick was because i was selfish and didnt help others enough. Whew. Knocked the wind out of me when i heard it

Your note about victim blaming simehow validated my life and hopefully i will stop stressing over what my son said

Lymeboy-i will pmyou

--------------------
Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself.

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Judie
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"From the start, the doc had me put my arm up and resist her pushing it down. She couldn't. Then gave me a vial of something to hold in the other hand. Now I couldn't fight her strength no matter how hard I tried. It was very strange."

That's muscle testing.

Here's an article about it:

http://www.mall-net.com/mcs/selfk.html

I found that to be complete BS for me (not saying it won't work for others). I also did the light box thing. Wasted my time for 2 years on that. Got worse. Spent over $3000 over all.

The practitioner gave me the "you have to believe in this for it to work" speech too. Well, I went from hope, to less hope, to be being bed-ridden with despair with my body wasting away after 2 years of "believing" this would work. I couldn't hold my head up I was so weak and I could barely walk.

The practitioner blamed ME for not getting well (yes, victim blaming), saying it was some deep-seeded emotional and sent me to a mental health person who was a nightmare. EFT was a failure to me (again, works for some, not all, I tried 4 different practitioners).

I was in worse shape after dealing with these practitioners.

For me, getting away from the extreme alternative treatments and seeing actual improvement to my physical health helped more than anything for the mind, body and spirit.

It turns out I had SEVERE gut dysbiosis (one of the big reasons meds like antibiotics and food made me so ill).

I went to an integrative MD and an ND after this. The supplements I was sold for the last 2 years had not enough of anything in them to make a difference.

After testing with the ND (stool testing), we treated the gut dysbiosis. I was better in 2 weeks!

I was at my worst mental state at that point. "Belief" in the system made absolutely no difference in healing for me.

That 2 years was a big waste of money and time for me.

Now, I'm not saying ALL alternative is bad, but that was REALLY bad for me.

The doc that was able to sort out a lot of my problems when conventional and alternative medicine failed was a naturopathic doctor. The ND I worked with told me that part of her internship was at a chiropractors office who did muscle testing. She said the office's diagnoses with muscle testing was often wrong and that patients were charged for stuff they didn't need. It was not clear to her if this was intentional or not.

Here's a link for and ND in your area:

http://naturopathic.org/

Good luck. I know how frustrating it can be when conventional medicine is a failure. I tried just about every alternative treatment out there too. It's so tough to find a good doc that can meet us where our body needs to go.

RUN RUN RUN away from this Dr. K-type practitioner and count it as an interesting life experience to be left in the past.

If your GF wants to do it, so be it, but you don't have to.

Find something that makes sense to you. If it doesn't feel/seem right, there's a good reason.

Don't do something because there's no other alternative. Do consults with 5 other people for opinions and pick who makes the most sense to you for treatment plans if you have to.

One doc wanted to do some kind of urine thing too with me, but when I asked for specifics, it was too vague for me just to "believe" it would work.

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lymeboy
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I'm so sorry mods!

*Inbox has been cleared, thank you for the heads up!

Thank you for your insight Catgirl! I could use as much info on this as possible right now as I'm a bit overwhelmed. I hope to hear from others like you that have done it or are doing it! I know the parasite treatment has been great for me so far.

Brussels, thank you SO MUCH for your insights and experiences. I love hearing this.

Keebler, I do agree but it feels like a fine line in this case. I don't think that the inclusion of this part of the method is intended to deflect. I think it can come across that way though, and could probably be an avenue for charlatanism. I guess I think it is just inartfully stated. And this being a somewhat controversial treatment for a controversial disease, I think that part could be served well by helping people to understand WHY they need to dive deep within themselves to come back from something that is really very traumatic. Lyme is traumatic. We get it.
So I'm on board with psychological healing and trying to be braver and more honest with yourself than you've ever been in your life. I think I just would rather not start by rewording a doc's schpiel in my head so I can get into the treatment.
I've been the receiver of much victim blaming from many charlatan docs who claimed to be "Lyme Doctors", "Lyme Specialists", "Lyme Centers". Oh yes, these people are out there and they are parasites indeed. "you need a psychiatrist, not an MD." after being told of very textbook neuro Lyme. "I've never heard of that" with a nasty condescending look. Holy cow does this make me insane with rage. It's been part of the trauma of Lyme for me.

That's not what this is. It's just unfortunate that some very smart people haven't really done a good job verbalizing this aspect of healing which is VERY VERY important.

I'm so thankful for everyone's insight.

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lymeboy
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Ellen, I absolutely respect what you are saying. I think this is why these practitioners are so insistent that people be with them 100%. They know about the skepticism surrounding the profession. It is obvious that they want to keep folks who are turned off by their treatments away, as they really cannot help them. You can't force this type of treatment on someone.

I did abx for years and they helped me so much. But I won't get to remission with them. That became obvious. This disease has gone way too deep on me. I can't heal enough to fight the rest of it off. I'm really for all camps that strive to fight Lyme. Eventually we'll probably see a more streamlined approach to treatment that uses everything that works. That's where integrative is headed. Just not quickly enough!!!

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GretaM
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Lymeboy-thanks so much for sharing the experience.

I had such a good chuckle with your joke,"I'm already putting coffee up my butt, drinking urine, and no dignity remaining" etc joke! So true for us lyme and co folks!

[Smile]

Yes the muscle testing thing boggles my mind also.

A relative is with a practioner that uses that for diagnosis and medicine selection.

I am glad my LLND is fairly traditional and more into herbal tinctures, ozone, UV, abx and detoxing.

Not saying anything against the muscle testing. Just saying if my LL suggested something alternative right off the bat I woulda run for the hills.

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Keebler
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Just want to say this about "urine therapy" There are many other avenues, approaches, methods to consider first. If you are not comfortable with one aspect, discuss it and go for another way to achieve the same thing.

If immune support, prompting is desired, medical mushrooms are excellent in that regard but so are so many other methods.

As for other parts of the overall approach, some are excellent - absolutely excellent and I hold Dr. K in high esteem. The highest.

It's just that not all parts of every protocol are for everyone. I might draw the line on the urine part of this - for myself - and see what else might have similar desired effects. But that's just one tiny part of the whole part.
-

[ 10-20-2014, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Lymetoo
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Same here, Keeb.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Ellen101
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brussels:


I find funny people don't use the word 'cured'. I'm getting bitten by ticks, I'm lyme free for MORE than 5 years, treatment free too. What should I say? I'm still sick?

No way. I no longer have lyme, despite being still bitten. I don't feel I'm sick.

I say I'm cured. Temporarily or not, I don't know.

People who have herpes don't say 'Look guys, I'm still sick with herpes, even though I have no symptoms for years!.

You say 'cured' just because you feel lyme is more in the past, and is not coming back to bother us.

If you feel you are cured, you put lyme in the past, and look at the future. You feel positive about both your present life, your health, and make plans for the future.

If you say 'I'm in remission', well, you live with fear of falling sick again, every day. You live in the past, and look only in the past, and fear it. That alone, may make you fall sick again, because that influences your immune system negatively!!!

Well guys, I'm cured.

[Love this Brussels! Words to live by!

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Brussels
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Thanks Ellen!

When you know that there are dozens or hundreds of infections that still live in us, dormant, it makes no sense to me that people do not use the term cured.

Not only lyme can come back, but bartonella too. Probably babesia too, malaria, tuberculosis, chicken pox, poliomyelitis, hepatitis B and C, candida (all types!!!)...

Are all these guys saying: 'Look I am in remission from Hepatitis C for about 40 years!!!?'

I mean, it makes no sense to me, to be sticking to the past. And to a 'bad' past, with awful memories of suffering.

It's not a coincidence that possibly all cancer patients in terminal stage are covered with infections, specially candida. These live within us, in harmony when we are fine, and photogenically when we get very sick.

Every healthy person is in remission of dozens, if not hundreds of past infections!

We got to look at our immune system and if it is working reasonably well, we say: we are healthy!! Life goes on, and it is nice to be alive!

It is not the pathogen that makes us sick or healthy. It's our immune system, our detox pathways, our mind and heart settings.
-------

As for urine therapy, well, it came from inside a person out, right? It was inside you before you peed! What's so awful about it? Your sweat is pee. All your cells are excreting urine at this exact moment!

And anyway, it is a diluted form of it, not the pure urine.

My lyme was put dormant by taking borrelia nosodes. And I ingest all types of diluted pathogens (nosodes) to cure even streptococcus, or candida. I do that for many years. Mainly thanks to homeopathy, my lyme is gone.

Homeopathy is THE medicine that can cure, steer your body deeply from inside to a healthier state. Nothing goes as deep and as powerful as homeopathy. Urine therapy, if potentialized, is homeopathy.

About a week ago, I took two very infected teeth out. I took no single antibiotic. The only things I take are 3 homeopathic substances, that will help both the pain after taking teeth off, and to avoid infections.

One of the medicines is MADE out of infected tissue from my own teeth! A nosode.

Homeopathy is the only thing that talks to your cells, to your organs, to your mind and heart. No drug will steer you out of a disease state as well as homeopathic substances. Some herbs may help, but still, they are incomparable to homeopathic substances.

Have you heard of auto-hemotherapy (re-injecting your own blood ?). Results can be amazing. It's not homeopathy, but it shows how your own tissues can serve as a potent treatment against your diseases.

You want to stop a hay fever in a matter of an hour or two? The only thing that works for us is nosodes made by the allergen itself. It works for everybody, no exception (at least, everybody I used the technique).

You sniff, ingest the diluted allergen, that stops the crazy inflammatory reaction like magic. Then you may understand, what auto urine therapy could do. It could be very very powerful.

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Brussels:

I find funny people don't use the word 'cured'. I'm getting bitten by ticks, I'm lyme free for MORE than 5 years, treatment free too. What should I say? I'm still sick?
--
If you feel you are cured, you put lyme in the past, and look at the future. You feel positive about both your present life, your health, and make plans for the future.

Well guys, I'm cured.


-

Well .. then I am too! 10 years now! [Smile]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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keikko
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I did the auto urine therapy for few months and it wasn't bad. The urine is so diluted, you can't see it, taste it, or smell it.

It made sense to me but bodily fluids don't freak me out too much especially not my own... I worked in hospitals for over 10 years.

I also see a Dr k. practitioner and was feeling so bad I would have done almost anything. I don't tolerate antibiotics at all either and have had to seek alternative ways to treat in very small doses.

I am grateful for muscle testing, it has really been a guide for me.

I am not better but working on it. I was very ill for many years before I went to a doctor that could actually help me.

Good luck:)

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Amanda
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First, I have to tell you your comments regarding coffee enemas and drinking urine made me roll out of bed with laughter.

Thank you for that.

I always ask myself, "What objective measures can I use to show my symptoms are getting better?"

I'm lucky in that I have certain symptoms, and certain markers in my blood, that go away if a treatment is working. (unfortunately, I have other sympoms that just will not go away..still working on that...).

If you can come up with your own list, even if it is just 2 or 3 things. Number of nights you sleep more than 5 hrs, or reduced number of times a day your muscle twitch, or decrease in your WBC.

Anything that is pertinent to you that can be counted.


Because really no one understands these conditions fully, and each person responds differently, you are going to get every kind of "practitioner". BUT if that person helps you, maybe itsd worth it to suspend disbelief.

I'll tell you I have had a VERY hard time with a lot of "alternative" stuff. Before I was sick I was a scientist. I thought Dr. K was basically practicing made-up witch craft. (actually, I havent counted that out yet, but if he helps people, who am I to judge?)

I also get seriously PO'd with the "If your not getting better, some part of you must want to be sick."
I had a NP say that to me once and my response was "So, if we follow your line of reasoning, why is it that because YOUR treatments, and YOUR supplements did not help me, I am to blame? Seems to me it is the practitioners that does not want me to get well."

But I know people who have been helped by some of these doctors. And then there are some good docs whose temperament is just kinda ****ty.(Though maybe that will help get you through the coffee enemas [Smile]

I think of it as kind of an equation.

Am I improving enough to put up with this new agey crap?

Oh, one last thing. I would be a little careful with the ART and "deep emotional issues". Most people who go to see these doctors are at their wits end emotionally, or else they wouldnt be there. And many people have had taumatic experiences in their lives. So chances are most patients that see these docotrs will have strong emotional responses. That is the result of suffering from a horrible disease , not the cause.

--------------------
"few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain

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Dogsandcats
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I was raised in a church that does not believe in doctors or medical care.. I was taught as a child, that if I was sick, it was because I had bad or impure thoughts. Heavy load for a kid. Other than teasing my brother and having no idea what an impure thought was- I couldn't figure out how blood wasn't real. Really blocked my "wanting to get well"!

Anywhoo....I saw a Dr who did the ART testing thing. I was taken aback by her prices and the amount of supplements I needed to buy $$$.

A long story longer, with my history of strange medical issues- I have learned to trust my instincts. Maybe try it again if you feel led, but if you don't feel right- exit stage left. Your instincts will always be true.

Best of luck to your and your girl...(:

--------------------
God will prepare everything for our perfect happiness in heaven, and if it takes my dog being there, I believe he'll be there.

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mlg
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Here is a piece of my story...maybe it will help. I believe some Dr K practitioners buy some equipment but not all. So I was with a top LLMD about 2.5 years ago doing aggressive pharma plus herbs then I started having kidney problems, fever, infection, pain, my LLMD told me I had to be hospitalized, but my daughter wasn't even 2. Someone in my lyme group recommended a Dr K trained doctor kind of for support and supplement. He used PEMF machine, art or Assyria then gave me homeopathic blend. I also did acupuncture and juiced and my chronic and acute kidney infection went away. Renelix as well.

I'm surprised I believe with Dr k you first treat with anti-parasitics. I also don't hear you mentioned PEMF -one of the best tools.

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Ellen101
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda:


I also get seriously PO'd with the "If your not getting better, some part of you must want to be sick."
I had a NP say that to me once and my response was "So, if we follow your line of reasoning, why is it that because YOUR treatments, and YOUR supplements did not help me, I am to blame? Seems to me it is the practitioners that does not want me to get well."

Very well said!
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poppy
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Sick people will do almost anything to get well, and if it is a chronic ailment (meaning some people are not cured), then this can get pretty weird.

As far as these offbeat practices are concerned, there are no track records, just strangers coming on a forum with anecdotal stories. If this is good enough evidence for you....well good luck. It certainly isn't for me.

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lymeboy
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I understand where you're coming from Poppy, though I think you might be a little quick to generalize.

Look, if 6 or so years back, someone came to me and said -"I have Lyme disease. The government doesn't recognize it as a dangerous disease and says that 3 weeks of abx will cure you. However, I've been doing high dose, multiple abx for 2 years straight, I've had an IV in twice, I take $300 worth of supps every month, I don't eat bread or sugar,...etc, and - I have neurological problems with balance, Can't think clearly, I get suicidal and depressed, I lose words and I have no memory etc etc! " - y'know, the average depressing laundry list that we as MCIDS sufferers are asked to trot out every time a friend or relative needs to break a conversational lull.
I would probably have rolled my eyes and made some trite suggestion like "well do you eat enough vegetables? Do you go outside enough? exercising?"

Inside I'd be thinking "none of that sounds right. This person thinks they're the victim of govt conspiracy, they have every symptom in the book, they're obviously depressed, and probably mentally unstable, so I'll just make a trite suggestion to make myself feel more comfortable"

I always thought of myself as a compassionate person. I've never been perfect, but I usually tried to be nice to people and take everyone at their word, until given a reason not to.

People are trained their entire lives to think like this. Doctors are the ultimate authorities who're right about everything. Follow convention. Don't be "weird". This is healthy because we are educated doctors and we say so.
-none of these things could be more opposite of the truth.

Everyone I know is "weird" in one way or another, often many ways. The authorities often do not have your best interest at heart and they are quite often wrong about some VERY BIG things.

Most people can't even accept the fact that you are as sick as you are and really left in the wilderness alone with this stupid disease... That's PREPOSTEROUS right? "If you were REALLY that sick you'd get the help you need. Who should I believe, the Scientists and Doctors of the CDC or some sniveling, depressed weirdo??"

"You mean the ENTIRE IDSA has had their pockets stuffed by insurance and pharmaceutical companies? REALLY?? Come on now that sounds highly unlikely"

It does sound unlikely and preposterous. People WILL NOT be on our side until they've been affected by this illness either from a loved one or being infected themselves.

How many people do you think come here looking for answers or info and immediately write us all off as a bunch of whining moonbats?
Probably a lot. Because it takes a profound shift in thinking to even accept the things that most of us now hold as truth, let alone decide to do things that the CDC and IDSA are dead set against.

Do you now how much vitriol there is JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO EAT GLUTEN FREE? It's disgraceful. The conversation usually goes something like this: "I don't eat bread or sugar"
- "Oh Really? Why? Do you have a Gluten Allergy or are you just being trendy? Gluten allergies are very rare you know...etc"

Why? what do you mean why? Because **** you, that's why! I've heard it so many times. Online there are message boards filled with millions of words dedicated to bashing the Gluten Free crowd. I can't even comprehend what kind of mentality gets so agitated over someone's diet. It's as if you're telling them you drink p..(oh ... right)

Defying convention is always met with skepticism, and often hostility. The act of treating Lyme for more than 6 weeks, no matter how conventional the tx may be, is certainly unconventional at this point in time and is being treated with contempt for sure.

Now imagine adding to that statement that you're seeing an "alternative" doc who uses magnetic devices and is trying to unblock your detox pathways and has you tapping on your own head.

WHAT??!?!?!? I can hear the collective heads of conventional thought exploding.

Are these things weird because they're weird? Or are they weird because they aren't what we're used to?

I know I'm being long winded. My point is that none of us here are following convention. The minute we decided to take stock in Dr. B's protocol and research is the minute we left convention behind and challenged the government to lop off our heads. We're still losing I think but gaining ground every day.

Dr. K. is far removed from even the conventions of Chronic Lyme. He is bound to be ridiculed and he's well aware of it. But the man is not a con artist or a charlatan. He probably gets it wrong as much as a standard well meaning LLMD, if not less so. He has a dedicated bunch of followers. And some of his protocols seem just like common sense. Some of it maybe not common sense, but some thinking and research reveal it to make a lot of sense. Then there's the weird stuff like drinking pee, and the awkward wording of certain things. "New Agey" type stuff that doesn't play well to the non-hippies among us (no offense to any actual hippies, I dig you guys)

I started this thread to hear the exact things everyone is saying here. Good and bad. I appreciate everyone's input and I hope we can keep having these types of conversations.

Poppy, It is true there is little "established" info on this type of tx. That's because it's been rejected by our government, our corporations, and the general populace has followed them into the bubble they've created. That bubble is so toxic for so many of us, and really the only way to being well is for us to get out of the damn bubble because that's what got us sick in the first place. The tick bite is what transmitted the Lyme back in 2001, but what really made me sick is the insistence of multiple doctors that I was fine, since I had been treated with 3 weeks of doxy. I went to 3 docs over the course of a year only to be told time after time that nothing was wrong, I just needed exercise. Which worked for about 5 years until my teeth started falling out and my ears closed up. I'd be happy, ignorant and probably quite successful right now had I found a LLMD or even some good info on lyme back then, but it was not readily available as it is now. The bubble made me sick. Of course I listened to them. It took being ready to die to accept that these guys are mostly pretty bad at their job and probably got into it for the $.

We are very ripe to be taken advantage of. Which is why we need to stay as vigilant as our Lyme ravaged minds can allow us to be. But at some point, risks need to be taken if we are gonna get back to good health. And mistakes are gonna get made, and money's gonna get wasted. I already know this, having wasted thousands on bad LLMD's. This thread is me trying to be vigilant. I'm aware this is pretty weird (the pee thing). And I don't understand all of it. But I'm not ready to give up, and I want to keep learning. The less regular MD's I see, the better, as far as I'm concerned. That system is no longer effective. It's costing the country tons of money and really stringing people out on drugs. Time for something new and better. Will the next thing be the right thing? Probably not an exact fit, but we need to always strive for improvement. That's what lifted the human race off the ground and into space! Why stop there?

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Brussels
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Well, the strangers of this forum made me find dr. K's practioners.

Without them I would be dead, and my daughter probably handicapped with TBE forever.

Of course, this is just anecdotal, like any in any forum.

I also love the anecdotes from vaccines, that handicap or kill or cause allergies and autism. No proof, no track record, just anecdotes from strangers (meaning, desperate parents).

Fortunately, there are strangers that think MORE than our medical doctors and the pharma industry, that come to talk about their own anecdotes, going against what doctors with their 'track record treatments' try to push on us all.

Most physicians would rather leave us 'strangers' rotten with an imaginary chronic lyme and enroll us in a psychiatric hospital instead of trying to understand the whole problem.

I believe more on Lymetutu's 10 year lyme free story than the story of doctors who say there is no cure for chronic lyme. Youhou for you, Tutu!!!

I guess after all these years of going from doctor to doctor, country to country, hospital to hospital and discovering that a taxi-driver has a LONGER life span than any medical doctor, I came into the bright conclusion that I should follow more the cab driver's advice rather than my physicians'!!!

And I'm no kidding. Statically, the 'normal' population live longer than medical doctors!!!

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poppy
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You misunderstood me, lymeboy. I certainly do understand why people would go off into very alternative things, especially the ones who can't afford to keep doing antibiotics, etc. If there is no cure for some people, if they "can't do" antibiotics, then they look for other things to do.

But some of those things really are strange, and you suggested that yourself in your first post.

So, everyone chooses his or her own poison and lives with it. What I don't like is someone trying to push their solution on others, especially when there is no science behind it. Choosing for yourself OK, pushing others toward non-science based alternatives Not OK.

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Keebler
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"Strange" is in the eye of the beholder. And "strange" can bring a lot bias but mostly, the determination of "strange" can be nothing more than lack of exposure.

Some say naturopathic approaches are strange. But that all depends on the breadth of one's exposure and experiences . . . and just what part of what part one is talking about.

There are many methods that some might find strange that have been the essential key for many.

Dr. K's overall approach is excellent. Not every practitioner is of equal experience and each person's treatment is / should be individualized.

Still, he has much science behind him. Even a tiny part of his protocol that I might not be comfortable with - does not mean it's not helpful to some. For those who are not comfortable, there are ways to make adjustments.

Please keep in mind that there are many ways to achieve success. If we close our minds to the full range, we are digging our own graves.

Yet, after we look around and see others who have gone before us with this or that technique --- we get to select what resonates or works with us and sometimes, some things may seem strange and be so -- or not quite our cup of tea. That's okay.
-

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lymeboy
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re reading I see that it looks like my whole long post was directed at you. I do apologize.

You're absolutely right. It's weird and out of my comfort zone. And you are not wrong for saying what you said. I think Your statement spurred a lot of thought on my part. I agree that it's strange, I don't necessarily think though that anything that hasn't been accepted by the science and medicine community is automatically BS. Scientists and doctors have repeatedly shown that they can be as compromised and dirty as the rest of the world. After all, Scientists and doctors are the reason we're online looking for answers in bed rather than easily accessing effective and inexpensive treatment, living happy lives.

No one here is PUSHING anything. This is a discussion about naturopaths.

Also, many of these methods are science based. But there may be very few established scientific papers backing these methods, because as I said, the establishment would lose $ if they were to include them. We have to wonder why orgs are REFUSING to conduct research on certain things. It's not as if they can't get funding. They just WON'T. Why?

"Established" Science is not really science at all. 300 years ago, bloodletting and swallowing mercury was established science.....

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poppy
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This is my last post on the subject. In fact, there are people on this forum who push alternatives very hard. This was not directed at you personally, lymeboy. I admire the support you are providing to your friend.

And Keebler, you are usually so right, that I hesitate to disagree. However, strange IS sometimes strange and not just unfamiliar. How many times have people posted here about spending years and a lot of money on these things and gotten no benefit?

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Keebler
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The way many "scientific" studies are conducted simply will not work with many nutritional supplements that require the entirely of the plant (or its parts), not just isolated elements.

Still, there is already a great of research as in actual study (not "studies") that covers hundreds of years or more.

It's very complex and I wish I could better explain it but it just cannot always be looked at in the same way as the modern controlled studies.

And much of the research is not going to be found by Google but by looking though lots and lots of books, talking with researchers who have been at this long before there was ever such a thing as Google.

And yet, I have certainly been surprised and encouraged at the number of medical abstracts available through PubMed on many herbs. But that's not the place to stop either. There are many naturopathic journals to look at that are not on the web. It's a fascinating world out there and so much to uncover - from the past.

Thinking about this - entirely - in modern terms (and as advertising presents this pill to cure that problem) may be to our detriment.

Much in the botanical medical world has to do with nutrients that can help our bodies (certain organs, systems, functions) work better.

Some, of course, do hold particular antimicrobial support but, again, it's not always going to be able to fit into the kind of pharmaceutical controlled studies.

Historical observations, with a different kind of scientific look has been a huge help for things such as IV Garlic in China (and for a few in the U.S., too). We should not be too quick to toss out observational research.

Again, I cannot concisely say what I'd like just please know we cannot always compare everything side by side . . . and, oh, some of those scientific controlled studies on Rx may not always be at all what we think. Whole other area, though.
-

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Keebler
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For instance, this book is probably the best introduction into research & application of medicinal plants. There are thousands of 3rd party research citations in this book.

If one really wants to understand the basics of plants for health, this is the best book to start with. But it's best not to pick a symptom or disease and look for a pill (although there are many practical bits).

Read it first, just for the discovery of it all. The history, the evolution, how we might access the best of it all and find those experts who know all this and so much more.

However, sadly, our access to such items has been severely limited, even when from expert sources.

http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Power-Rainforest-Herbs-Understanding/dp/0757001440/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413843413&sr=1-1&keywords=amazon%2C+leslie+taylor%2C+and

The Healing Power of Rainforest Herbs: A Guide to Understanding and Using Herbal Medicinals

- By Leslie Taylor, ND

The reader reviews give good detail, too.
-

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Keebler
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UNDERSTANDING HERBS & THE LANGUAGE OF HERBS

See the left side margin, all the way down. Essential place to begin as well.

Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters, many graciously available through their website.

Home: http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tillotson, et.al.)

He is a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine; She a doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncturist. The third co-author is a doctor of optometry.
-

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Keebler
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Google: "Michael Murray, ND"

he is also an excellent author in this area whose books are vital to understanding the nature of herbs.
-

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Keebler
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Previous posts in reply to "research" in this area and 3 of the top experts, IMO. Not specific to lyme / TBD.

Poppy's post appeared while I was composing so, in reply to the feeling of some "pushing" alternative options . . .

I'm sorry that anyone might feel that way as I'm a very enthusiastic student of plant medicine but also realistic.

Those who are not drawn to this or interested can just pass them by, though. There are many Rx posts that I never look at because that's just not in my access zone and so many of the symptom treatment Rx nearly destroyed my life. But I get that they can help others at times.

Herbs have helped me so much (even if not as much as I'd need, due partly to lack of access to LL ND and also lack of access to a full protocol for long enough).

And, sometimes, there are things posted that I do think are just by opportunists or the quality of their product is not at all up to par. There are crooks in all areas of the web, though. The more we learn, the better we can be at recognizing the real experts, the best products.

I tend to see others' posts / threads on this topic as a chance to become informed. I love learning more about, say, turmeric. I'm glad to see so many here also interested in the ways we can help ourselves

I often post an herbal supplement as an alternative, just in case someone wants to know there are other ways besides some Rx -- I had terrible reactions to some Rx in the past that were meant to treat symptoms but destroyed my gut, or other functions.

I wish I had known then there were (for me) better options.

[segue blip -- I interjected something and broke a train of thought I cannot see how to patch ]

yet understand that it can be such that some go off on "this thing" or "that" and it can lack the required elements. That is true. And some mix and match willy nilly and that can make me very nervous.

Q: " How many times have people posted here about spending years and a lot of money on these things and gotten no benefit?" (end quote)

Often, "these things" do work - but "these things" can have such a broad definition.

Usually it requires a very careful look at the full range of options and approaching it with an expert. Most LL NDs strongly rely upon Rx, as well as support supplements.

And, yet for some, Rx just don't or haven't worked or there is a problem with being able to tolerate.

Sometimes, though, even if ILADS educated and LL / TBD literate, it just might not be the right fit -- either a particular practitioner or the frame of a protocol (even when individualized).

Just because one does not work, though, I hope that won't stop someone in their tracks.

When I was finally dx, the only option to me at the time -- I spent years and money on an otherwise intelligent and experienced ND who greatly overestimated his lyme literacy. Greatly. That was before my city had any LL ND (and still no LLMD) -- and that is why I work so hard to help others find:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.


Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:

Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;

knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.

You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . .
-

[ 10-20-2014, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Lymetoo
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Thanks, Brussels!! [Smile]

Lymeboy, if you don't have a blog, you need to start one. Your style of writing is very cool and I like what you have to say!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Keebler
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-
For others who may want to know more about Brussels' & lymeboy's topic TAPPING / EFT -- that topic has not generally in the herbal supplement kinds of posts.

In addition to their experiences and insight, there have been a couple of threads that can be found in the LymeNet archives as EFT or tapping. Be sure to look those up for experiences of others with lyme / TBD.

for an overview just Google: "Tapping"

& more about:

http://betterhealthguy.com/autonomic-response-testing-with-dr-klinghardt

Autonomic Response Testing with Dr. K -

- by Scott Forsgren - June 2012 - 2013
-

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Judie
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Different things work for different people.

Just calculate how much time and money you're willing to spend on the treatment to see results.

What are you willing to count as a loss if it doesn't work and how much you can realistically afford over time if it is working?

(For example: I did 2 appointments a week and the money adds up, there are usually supplements and add-ons).

Remember, you are your own expert. Only you know your financial situation, comfort level and if something is really working for you.

The same goes for your girlfriend.

I personally have had extremely bad experiences with chiropractors trying to fix my complex medical issues. I do better with MDs and NDs.

A friend pursued alternative treatment that she had to "believe in" to have work. She thought she was getting better and then died. It was awful. There are some very unhappy endings for some of these "belief" treatments.

You asked for feedback. You're going to hear both positives and negatives and ALL are valid points.

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skies
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymetoo:


Lymeboy, if you don't have a blog, you need to start one. Your style of writing is very cool and I like what you have to say!

Ditto! Spot on and very well written! I'm with you!

For what it's worth, I've gotten the most help from a LLND. She is not a Dr. K practitioner, but she uses applied kinesiology very frequently.

I have found her to be quite accurate with it and very helpful almost all of the time.

I've been at this for years too, and I totally understand. It's a little strange when she does it, but she has helped me the most, so I do believe in it. She is very kind and truly wants to help; she also doesn't rob me blind like some LLMDs I've seen.

Go with your gut of course, but do continue exploring "outside the bubble." It's the best thing you can do.

All the best to you and your girlfriend!

--------------------
"The simple things can get you through the hardest times."  -

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GretaM
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My LLND saved my life.

And has introduced me to a superior style of health care-

It is difficult for me to even hear about the standard doctos appointment, from relatives and friends etc.

I think I speak for all of us when I say the strength and morale fortitude of the Lyme Literate docs is far far superior and customized as compared to the run of the mill average Md or Nd.

I've been with my LL a year and a half and quite honestly, I will try anything my LL suggests now as I trust my LL's reccomendations.

but before my LL, I had similar experiences as Judie. 3 times weekly visits to various alternative practioners at a high cost. Let alone the supplements I purchased in the quest to be well.

It is not about the type of treatment one is trying, but about whether the treatment is effective.

And lyme is such a funny one... No two people are alike with symptoms, so treatment therefore cannot be the same for everyone either.

I've been trying ozone the last month and I really like it.

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Lymetoo
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Hi, skies!!! [hi]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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mlg
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Hi Judi,
What type of doctor was she seeing when she passed away? BTW, sorry to hear.

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canefan17
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I went to a Dr K disciple and found it to be a huge waste of time.
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Sammi
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quote:
Originally posted by lymeboy:
I mean, I'm putting coffee in my butt already, I might as well drink a little pee so I can die with no dignity whatsoever.
OF COURSE I WANT TO GET WELL DAMNIT I"M CONSIDERING DRINKING PEE!

lymeboy, hilarious!

I don't understand the "logic" of drinking urine--it is a toxin-containing waste product.

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lymeboy
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Thanks skies and tutu. I like to write but I don't think I have very good grammar or proper english skills. I guess that isn't stopping 99% of the bloggers of the world!

I thought this might be a lively thread. The alternative med world is so controversial and they really do bring a lot of it on themselves.

For me, there's a few too many leaps of faith that these practitioners ask us to take. We need solid explanations and sensible talk if we're going to unload a chunk of cash on treatment.

But that doesn't mean it's no good, or ineffective. They're just going to stay a niche until they better figure out how to assimilate with the scientific community. Or better help people to understand Quantum physics/healing etc...


My girlfriend is into it and if she does well, I'll try it out. I really appreciate everyone that came here to say their piece. It's a really interesting subject, I could have this discussion indefinitely. So much to learn!

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by lymeboy:

Thanks skies and tutu. I like to write but I don't think I have very good grammar or proper english skills. I guess that isn't stopping 99% of the bloggers of the world!


-
No kidding! They drive me insane! (You could always have someone proofread for you.)

Keep us posted on how your girlfriend progresses!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Judie
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"What type of doctor was she seeing when she passed away?"

She was seeing an alternative practitioner who said she had to "believe" in the treatment for it to work.

Part of the program was to "believe" she was getting better while doing it. She was there for immune system issues.

A year after doing it, she "thought" she was doing better.

She wound up in the hospital 2 months later with advanced cancer that had taken over her spine and neck. She was dead in a few weeks. She had no idea she had cancer and ignored the pain.

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Sammi
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Judie that is so sad. I am very, very sorry.
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hiker53
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I thought for ART testing to be accurate the person in the middle should be healthy??? Hope that makes sense.

Hiker53

--------------------
Hiker53

"God is light. In Him there is no
darkness." 1John 1:5

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Butterfly26
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lymeboy, I was just reading about a dr that seems similar to the one you posted about and then saw that you are from NJ too- I'm very curious to know how follow ups go and if it is the same dr I found.
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