posted
Has anyone ever experienced anything like this?:
I finally got a positive Bartonella titer after all the ivermectin, so we've been treating with clarythromycin (Biaxin) for about 6 weeks, and rifabutin (Mycobutin) for about 2 weeks.
I've had a fever from 100-103 for the past 3 days and a worsening throat lesions that look like classic strep throat.
Both these abx are supposed to have gram-positive coverage, so if this is strep, I'm concerned about drug resistance.
I was also concerned about fungal, but the colonies did not exfoliate like thrush, and I didn't see any yeast or hyphae under a microscope.
It doesn't quite look like coxsackie, but who knows.
My LLMD is unavailable. I'm headed to an urgent care for a culture/sensitivity, and prolly add a 3rd abx with better gram-pos coverage... (bummer that I'm allergic to penicillin...)
There's no way this could be related to die-off, is there?
TNT
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posted
That's nasty, SickSci!
I experienced my first case of strep throat after being on Biaxin briefly. That was 6 months into treatment several years ago, and it happened after being on Biaxin for a couple weeks.
I had just stopped the Biaxin (because it caused enough GI troubles at full dose that I stopped) when the strep hit. Thankfully I was able to use Amoxicillin and Augmentin to clear it up.
I don't know if it is a die-off, but judging from my own experience, I could possibly see it being connected to the Biaxin somehow. But I still don't have an explanation for it.
Could your immune status be on the upswing and it is a latent strep infection?
I hope you get it under control!
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poppy
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I had strep while on antibiotics (don't remember which ones). It did culture positive and I was given Pencillin VK, don't remember how long. That knocked it out. I was also worried about resistance from all the abx in the past right up to present, but it didn't turn out to be untreatable.
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surprise
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We have thousands of stories of kids on antibiotics, yet still catching a new strep infection.
Get it swabbed for strep.
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posted
It was rapid strep negative. Mono negative. Strep culture/DNA pending.
Thx for feedback, all. Countryair: yes my LLMD is a galaxy co-founder, so I feel pretty good about this abx protocol for bart.
I am adament about trying to document positive bart testinng whenever possible. Even the CDC recognizes pharyngeal tropism for Bart henselae; it would be nice to show that drs could use swabs when there's pathology...
TNT
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Yes, my infection was diagnosed by a positive rapid strep test two days after the fever began.
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WPinVA
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Not all strep cases test positive in our experience. Sound familiar? : (
And some kinds of strep are resistant to different classes of abx. Clindamycin is really good for strep.
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posted
thx, TNT. Totally agree, WPinVA. rapid test is only ~60% sensitive.
I checked out the cytology on my own swab a couple days ago, and really didn't see a ton of intracellular cocci... I don't think this is clarythromicin-resistent strep. But culture pending, so we'll see.
Countryair, rifampin and rifabutin (mycobutin) are related, and I agree key abx for bart (though they are not aminoglycosides). Mycobutin induces fewer cytochrome pathways, so is purportedly slightly safer. (But holy COW is it outrageously expensive!!)
Dr. B (veterinarian founder of galaxy labs) has a quote: "You cannot drown a dog in enough doxycycline to rid it of bartonella." I think minocycline has similar shortcomings.
I dunno. We're all different, I'm early on my road of treatment, so maybe I'll be cursing abx after 9 months if I'm still not cured, but I feel pretty hopefull right now.
posted
Countryair - I'm so so sorry you've had to go through that. I think it's inhumane the way MD patients are dismissed or funneled to psyche.
Lateral gene transfer between bacterial and eukayotic cells is definitely a burgeoning research area. We've accepted viral insertions into our genome for years, but are only recently recognizing that bacterial plasmids have been doing the same thing.
I'm a veterinarian, and we have several bacterial diseases that cause transformative lesions; for example equine or bovine cankor causes hyperkeratosis of the hoof and has intralesional spirochetes.
Another human example of bacterial transformation is bacillus thuringiensis (ie BT corn etc), as testing is now revealing humans producing crystal protein after lateral plasmid transfer to either human gut flora and/or human cells themselves.
I've never heard bartonella implicated in MD, but we've gotta be open minded; so much is unknown.
Certainly fibers in a VP lesion is fascinating; were they tested for collagen? I would expect they were vascular in nature, even if not patent. Do you have any pictures to post?
posted
countryair - That's kind of you, but I'm as clueless as the rest of us trying to regain and maintain my health after vector-borne dz.
I am on ALA, NAC and other glutathione boosters / detox helpers, although since I've been feeling stronger, I've been trying to figure out which supp's I can drop. I thoroughly resent my outrageously expensive, not-covered-by-insurance supplements.
Surprise - I think like most of us, I've probably gotten multiple doses of bartonella over te years, plenty of cat bites and innhaled flea feces from cats and dogs, contact with other sick animal bodily fluids. Who knows. I really think it's a very common infection that remains subclinical for years.
My current sick saga started last summer with a tick bite, but there's no telling if the tick carried bart, or just a rickettsia that mobilized the bart.
CD57
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SickSCi, I was a patient of your docs too. Am interested that you got the positive for bart (from Galaxy?) after Ivermectin. How often did you take the Iver and for how long? That med never did much for me but Dr M had me keep taking it. I felt that it did not get systemic and did nothing for bart (although I have 3 versions of Fry protozoa per his latest test, which shows "clades").
I did not find the mycobutin combo at all. We are all so different! Rifampin kicked my butt though.
Countryair -- your post is very interesting too. Are you saying you killed bartonella with silver sol and MMS together, or was that Morgellons? I got confused. I know someone who did your protocol and felt very well, and notice that some of the herbs show up in Rosner's new book (tart cherry, moringa).
What did you use to kill bartonella, countryair?
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CD57
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Finally Sicksci, my chronic EBV symptom list lists that white exudate or whatever it is, as a symptom of this.
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I had a low bart titer through galaxy after weekly ivermectin for about 5 months?
We're hoping this titer increases with the biaxin/mycobutin.
The correlation between titer and ivermectin might be a coincidence, but my arthalgias / RA-like hand pain increased tremendously on iver, which I take as an indication of more immune complexes floating around getting lodged places and causing inflmmation.
My C3a / C4a compliment also went sky high on iver.
Supposedly the protozoa and bart are symbiotic and killing the protozoa flushes out the bart, but ... theory.
I've always been EBV neg, FWIW... a lot of things can cause ulcerative / exudative pharyngitis... but IMO this gross appearance looks more bacterial than viral, and the fever spiking over 104.5 suggests bacterial... but who knows.
CD57
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Well the fever IS a good thing. Doc said this means immune system is recovering. I have not had a fever in years so clearly I am not hitting pathogens.
Countryair, forgive me but I could not read your whole page. Brain fog and comprehension not strong points right now.
Would like your thought on this though: I have done a TON of silver.....ingested it, nebulized it, and even done some IVs of it! I have tried Argentyn 23, Nutrasilver, and ACS200, which is what Dr M likes. NOTHING, no reaction, nada zip zero. Then I read that this may be because the silver is so reactive in the bloodstream that it likely doesn't even reach the infected tissue / endothelial cells, nor able to penetrate intracellularly! Although the silver manufacturers, when I would call, would assure me that this is not the case. But nothing changed....no herx, no change of test results. ??
So it seems as though the silver would kill the bartonella....if it could just get to it. Are you saying that the ALA and MSM makes that happen? Or was that the moringa powder?
Apologies for the question.....comprehension not my strongest point right now.
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CD57
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when I google "silver hydrosol" i get pointed to Sovereign SIlver, which I have as well in my cupboard and is also manufactured by the same company as Argentyn 23 (way overpriced).
How do you keep it in your system for 24/7 if it is reactive and disappears from the bloodstream in about a minute, and from the lymphatic system in 15 minutes (this is from the scientist at immunosciences).
This appears to be the magic question. I don't doubt that silver works, but these bacteria are protected from it and it doesn't appear to last long enough to kill. Countryair, how did you get silver to stay in your system for 24/7???
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CD57
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sorry, which part, Countryair? You mean where I was told about the half life of silver being 9 seconds (bloodstream) and 15 min (lymphatic system)? No I don't......this was from the scientist at Immunosciences, the makers of Sovereign Silver and Argentyn 23. I called him to ask this specific question and that's what he told me.
It seems to jive with my experience w silver......it (silver) killed the following acute conditions in my house: hand foot mouth virus in my toddler, my cat's fungal infection, and my eye infection. Could this be because these pathogens are floating around in the bloodstream or in contact directly with the silver?
However, these chronic intracelllular infections seem to be hidden from it! I need to rip open the cell and make sure the silver has not been inactivated in the blood, to get the pathogen in contact with the silver!
SOrry, SIckSci! Didn't mean to derail your thread! Country air, perhaps I should PM you?
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CD57
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I will, I have been, but like I said I have trouble with comprehension etc. Thanks!
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WPinVA
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Even the strep throat culture isn't always accurate. Depends sometimes on how good of a sample they get to test.
Also have found that strep can travel downwards into your gut and then hide out from the tests.
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surprise
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My daughter has had fevers as a herx. Not as high as yours, tho, which to me looks and sounds like strep.
After being off antibx and all treatments for almost 2 years, when put back on 2 lyme antibx, about 1.5- 2 hours after dose, low grade fever. About a month.
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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The culture was done at D*ke, so of course it will take forever to report the results by computer, when the Petri dish already showed yesterday whether there was growth or not.
(I'm not a fan of that institution, but they aree a medical monopoly where I live. Apologies for the rant.)
posted
So, urgent care believes this is a Mycobutin drug reaction . They want me to stop Myco and start prednisone.
I'll hear back from my LLMD this monday, hopefully..
I find it hard to believe I'm one of the lucky 4% that get mycobutin rashes, and I don't kknow how that theory explains that I went 2 weeks on myco before developing the rash...
GretaM
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Thanks for checking in. You know your body. How is your throat? Is it still quite sore? Do you have swollen lymphnodes in your neck also?
Yes, i remember the burning feeling. Water from a shower felt like sandpaper on my back.
Clothes were uncomfortable. I remember when I first got the spots I didn't wear clothes for a week. Couldn't even handle sheets touching me. Burning burning burning.
Yes they told me methotrexate and steroids also.
Ignored the sore throat. Said guttate psoriasis. If you google the above you may see a very similar rash. I started peeing blood shortly after starting their steroid and methotrexate regimen. Had infected kidneys, but they couldn't culture anything.
Did a dermo look at your rash in urgent care? I hope your LL contacts you soon.
I don't wish to alarm you with my experience. Just sharing. Hope you feel better soon!
Hugs Greta
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surprise
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I also thought Rocky Mt. Spot Fever too Greta, in addition to scarlintina rash/ strep.
Wow SickSci, I have no more advice, I'm sorry this happened- is it getting worse? Maybe stop the antibx to see but don't take the steroid? I am not a Dr.
I am very curious what your LLMD says on Monday- could you please update?
-------------------- Lyme positive PCR blood, and positive Bartonella henselae Igenex, 2011. low positive Fry biofilm test, 2012. Update 7/16- After extensive treatments, doing okay! Posts: 2518 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2011
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posted
I really appreciate the feedback, guys. I was hoping just one person on this forum could say, "Oh Mycobutin did that to me..." or "I had that as a herx and then it went away..."
Throat was improving and fever breaking with no change in regimine. Skipped last night and this morning's abx doses, n o change in rash, but apparently that could take days or weeks to dissapate...
Mycobutin drug info page does mention "ulcers in mouth" and "rash", but it's hard to know drug rxn vs. herx
posted
I would be afraid to go off Mycobutin and end up developing resistance to it . I haven't been on it, but I do know that one can develop resistance to Rifampin by going off and on. I wonder if you lose Mycobutin if Rifampin will still work?
Is there some way to find out for sure?
I also had scarlet fever and it looked exactly like the rash you have. RMSF could also cause a rash like that. Were you tested for it?
Is there any way to get a hold of Dr. M on the weekend? I think you really need his expertise here.
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Hey guys, I'm doing great and have been back at work - thx for checking in! I've had some mild residual itching, but my rash spread down my arms and legs, was almost unbearable... then cleared up about a week ago with no steroids or any adjunct treatment.
I have never paused the mycobutin, which I think just emphasizes that this was not a drug reaction.
I did have a repeat of the fever (only to about 101*) this past monday/tues, but that cleared up again.
My remaining skin issues since starting Mycobutin are 1) a TERRIBLE psoriasis-like dandruff and 2) I've had several moles scab over, itch and fall off, bleeding.
I've also gained about 15 lbs since starting antibiotics despite eating well and exercising more - which has never in my life been an issue before.
Anyone else experience those?
I will definitely update you guys with the bartonella tests associated with this herx/illness episode. Results should be within the next few days.
It's amazing to me that even with these dramatic reactions to treatment, I still feel soooo much better than the past year and a half lost in brain fog, pain and neuropsychiatric sx!
posted
For anyone interested the Bartonella PCR on the throat swab came back negative, BUT...
... my bartonella IFA titers have gone from zero before treatment to 1:64 for Bartonella henselae and 1:32 for Bart quintata after 6 weeks of clarythromycin and 2 weeks of mycobutin.
These are low numbers, but will likely keep rising over the next month or two of treatment.
I see these slowly rising titers as evidence that my recent fevers, rash and ulcerative pharyngitis may have been Bartonella-related.
"More and more bacteria are becoming resistant to our common antibiotics, and to make matters worse, more and more are becoming resistant to all known antibiotics. The problem is known as multi-resistance, and is generally described as one of the most significant future threats to public health Antibiotic resistance can arise in bacteria in our environment and in our bodies. Antibiotic resistance can then be transferred to the bacteria that cause human diseases, even if the bacteria are not related to each other."
There are two reasons pharmaceutical antibiotics don't work, one is mentioned above, the other is that in order to make a new molecule for a drug you are always adding simpler molecules together. When the molecules get too big they no longer penetrate the bones.
Pharmaceutical molecules are big by design, they are pattented molecules and don't occur in nature and from a standpoint of organic chemistry, don't belong in your body.
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Maybe I should have been more explicit; the fever, rash and rising titer are likely due to Bartonella die-off, meaning antibiotic treatment *is* working for me (for now), and I am becoming immunocompetent against bart.
Clinically I'm sure feeling better than I have in > a year.
Not sure where you got your information, but there is more to pharmacokinetics and tissue tropism than molecule size.
Transmission of antibiotic resistence plasmids has been recognized as a problem for decades, and I am a fan of minimmal use of antibiotics or homeopathic remedies when possible, or rx'ing an abx course long and strong enough to get the job done.
There is point rarely discussed: has the rate of antibiotic resistance really increased? Historically, microbes have acquired resistence over time, but the pharmaceutical companies were R&Ding new antimicrobial drugs.
I'm not sure abx are a profitable venture for drug companies anymore, so as the new abx have decreased the discourse has moved to resistence.
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