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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Measles Outbreak (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Measles Outbreak
Looking
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Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?

Allegedly, the mumps vaccine may have been a fraud for the last 10 years due to not being very effective and it is now before the courts due to whistleblower complaints.

Merck tried to have it dismissed but lost on 1 count so that part is apparently going ahead.

They are accused of knowingly fabricating it's efficacy at 95% in order to get contracts with the gov't.

The court document is long so here is the relevant part:

The Court is unmoved by Defendant’s (Merck) argument. Here, Plaintiffs allege that “as a direct and proximate result” of Defendant’s “misrepresentations and omissions” they were deceived into purchasing Defendant’s product.
(Dkt. No. 26 ¶ 168.)

They allege that they “would not have
purchased or used Mumps Vaccine had they known the truth” about its efficacy.
(Dkt. No. 26 ¶
167.)

Courts have found that this direct causation argument is sufficient to survive a motion to
dismiss.
--------

Apparently Merck falsified test results and sold millions of doses of "questionable efficacy," flooding and monopolizing the market, a primary caregiver claims in a federal antitrust class action.

I'm no lawyer, but that's my understanding of it.

Here is the synopsis in plain english, short and easy to read:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/06/27/47851.htm

For any legal or determined types who love reading very long court documents here they are:

http://www.naturalnews.com/gallery/documents/Chatom-Lawsuit-Merck-Mumps.pdf

http://www.rescuepost.com/files/59-opinion.pdf

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beaches
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PARENTS on this forum have always had the best of intentions, considering their posts involve their kids one way or another.

What I don't understand are the misogynistic comments directed at mothers here by a particular member.

This particular subject isn't the first time this person has disparaged mothers of sick children.

To any and all reading, think twice or three times before you attack mothers who take care of very sick children.

Unless and until you have walked in my shoes, or the shoes of so many here, keep quiet.

You might learn a thing or two by keeping your mind open and your mouth shut.

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by Maia_Azure:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rowingmom:
I am very concerned that “successful” prevention of childhood diseases by means of short-term protective effects of live attenuated viral vaccines during childhood has led to the loss of maternal ability to transfer immuno-protection to their young, thereby leaving infants vulnerable to those diseases, should the exposure occur.

Passive immunity from the mother only lasts a few weeks. You could get a booster while pregnant or right after birth to stimulate the response. They do that with pertussis.

quote:
By doing so, vaccination campaigns wipe out population’s immunity to childhood diseases rather than help to maintain it.
Before vaccines, the only way to become immune to a disease was to actually get it and, with luck, survive. A vaccine is either a live, weak virus, attenuated, or dead. Or it can be viral proteins, etc.

Vaccines are in effect simulating the humoral antibody response. The macrophages find the vaccine, display the antigens to lymphocytes (B and T cells) that secrete the antigens. When this "disease" is fought off, B cells and T cells convert into memory cells. These cells will circulate through your body for the rest of your life. To restimulate a waning response, you get a booster (Some people who aquire the disease can lose immunity as well, its not just a vaccine thing).

There isn't a natural immunity to whopping cough or smallpox, once your maternal antibodies wore off, you have no immunity. You were just as susceptible to contracting it.

Even if over time a population of people who survived a disease had a better chance of passing on recovery to their progeny, I'm perplexed at why you think we need immunity to a disease that we have eradicated.

Diseases are fighting for survival. Remove their reservoir, and they die out. If somehow, smallpox appeared, all you would need to do would be to revaccinate to maintain immunity.

The whole point of vaccination is to build up kids immunity in a controlled and less medically risky way. It's the same humoral antibody response as when you get the disease, without the same risk as the disease itself.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by randibear:
yes but where did itcome from??? why california??? something doesnt add up..

It was eradicated in the US in the early 2000s. It still exists in other parts of the world and causes death in the 3rd world. It re-appeared in California because an unvaccinated international traveler brought it into the country.

CA is a good spreading zone because there are pretty high pockets of unvaccinated individuals, especially in Orange County.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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rowingmom
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Maia - can you address this please, and explain why the same mode of transmission would not apply to other live attenuated vaccines, ie. MMR

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24076325

--------------------
13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement.

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by Looking:
Maia, keep cherry picking your info if it makes you happy-- you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.

I am not cherry picking data, Ive actually read the data. You haven't found an independent study that back's up Wakefields hypothesis. 75 studies and counting have not found the link he hypothesized.

The other point you fail to acknowledge is that Wakfield was paid over half a million dollars to do the 'study' by people looking to sue the manufacturer of the vaccines. He was paid over 50,000 by lawyers representing families, and also filled his study with these plaintiffs. He also stood to make money with a single dose vaccine. If we changed the circumstances to Lyme, people here would consider him a pariah. Thats the link to the ISDA.

Yes, he wasn't anti-vaccination. But he never proved his link between gastroenteritis and MMR and autism. So there is no medical need as of yet for a single dose shot. Having a one shot reduces the amount of visits to the doctor and shots you need AND exposure to additives.

quote:
you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
Because it's not relevant. I don't know kind of doctor you go to, but every time I have been vaccinated I received information on the benefits and risks. Its not a conspiracy, its well known that vaccines have side effects. That's why VAERS exists, and the vaccine court.

quote:
Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine.
It is documented that in incredibly rare cases, encephalopathy can occur after vaccination. This is a known risk. Awarding parents money if a court determines this happened, is not proof that it caused autism.

Children who develop encephalitis have been shown to have a genetic mutation. Mitochondrial disorders are rare, predominantly genetic diseases. Measles causes encephalitis as well, thus you have higher risk of it from measles vs the vaccine hands down.

For information, see here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2603512/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1867082/


quote:
A recent court case was in Italy but you won't see media over here covering it. Are you now going to say these court decisions do not exist.
No, but a Court case is not proof of an autism link, especially because they used the retracted Wakefield paper as a basis of their ruling. Courts decide on the law, not on deciding the value of scientific evidence. Science doesn't rely on a panel of non-experts (a jury) to determine which side's evidence is better. That would be scary, indeed.

Its also worth noting that Luca Ventaloro is a well known Italian anti-vaccine advocate and his "expert medical witness" was Massimo Montinari, who has not authored any biomedical research papers on autism, MMR or vaccines. He does sell his own autism "cure" protocol, if you are wondering.

quote:
If you want an actual scientists point of view, you could read Dr. Hooker's experience dealing with FOIA requests to the CDC and how they were less than forthcoming:

Dr. Hooker is an engineer with no background in any of the key areas of study regarding vaccines: immunology, virology, microbiology, epidemiology, or even public health. So how he is an 'actual scientist' is anyone's guess. His paper based on the CDC data was also retracted due to issues in the peer review process and concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis:

He reanalyzed a Destefano case-control studythat had found no statistically significant correlations between MMR and autism. Hooker took the data and created a cohort study. He then performed multiple subset analyses, a method prone to false negatives and positives. Pretty slippery, eh?

quote:
Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe
This paper (not a study) presents no original data and critiques other epidemiological studies in an effort to create a conspiracy at the CDC. Two of the authors have legal trouble for pushing a dangerous and harmful "cure" for autism.

Mark Geier chairs the Institute of Chronic Illnesses, where he approves his own "studies." They also purport to cure autism with heavy metal chelation. Mr. Geier had his license to practice medicine suspended due his "Lupron protocol" and the way he misdiagnosed children in order to prescribe Lupron. Thus they treated disabled children with a drug for which there was no clinical need.

Brian Hooker was a board member of Focus Autism, so if you follow the money trail, they all stand to make it peddling their claims. Lisa Sykes is a pastor so I am unsure what her medical credentials are.

Even if we ignore their financial incentives and lack of medical qualifications, I'd like to see real data from them. Otherwise their claims of a CDC conspiracy are just rantings on the internet to line their pockets.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
-
I was in about 5th grade when the measles vaccine came out. And, you know what. Up until that time, measles was NOT nearly as contagious as the media / gov't is saying.

My mother had the measles before the vaccine came out. Also whopping cough. Back then, it was highly contagious and very common. I'm not sure why you would claim it "wasn't contagious." A claim you've created as a 5th grade witness?


quote:
- and there some good ways to also address viruses that regular doctors don't even consider but naturopathic doctors do. The old "oh, there is no treatment for a virus" is just a lazy lie.
I see a naturalpath doctor. However, they don't have the power to protect you from contagious virulent diseases upon exposure. A naturalpath who claims that is being disingenuous.

quote:
While many have received a full round of vaccines by the time they reach this point, now that the government is looking to make sure everyone who's breathing take a new round
Why would they do that? The measles vaccine is 97% effective, despite someone claiming below the shot is not effective. No one is going to force you to get a booster.

quote:
And many of them have serious immune system reasons for not receiving vaccines yet also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives.
People with immune complications should not receive vaccinations and would get an medical exemption.


quote:
Also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives.
Aluminum & formaldehyde are just two of many.

My problem with the debate is that first, it was vaccines and autism. Since that link has never been found, the goal posts were moved. Then it became, the overwhelming schedule! Well, despite more vaccines in the schedule today, there are less antigens overall than in the 1990s.

Then we want single shots! Why do you want a single dose shot? The human body has the power to repsond to a million antigens at any given time, what is a 3 dose vaccine going to do?

Finally, why do people want a single dose vaccine, then turn around and complain about toxins? More shots = more toxins?

Also, you mentioned formaldehyde. You have more naturally circulating in your body from metabolism on any given day than the shot would give you.

I am 100% for removing an additive if it is found to cause problems. Which specific ones are you concerned about?

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by Looking:
Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?

Ive read about it. Apparently the vaccine to the mumps wears off over time. The effectiveness is approximately 85-88%, Merck’s data for mumps is on the upper end of the statistical errors for independent research.

Here is a recent independent study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25000591

If the vaccine is not as effective as thought, it would mean that booster shots would be in order. Also, the course and severity of the mumps infection is less than those who were never vaccinated. So it does impart protection, even as it wanes. So I don't see it as some sort of scam.

The good news is, Merk isn't by themselves the only authority on vaccine effectiveness. Because we all know how trustworthy Big Pharma is.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Looking
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Maia, you do go on and on. Is that 20 posts you've made on this thread -- I've kind of lost count.

No wonder people think you might have an agenda.

I know people get paid to post support on certain subjects, I sure hope you are not one of them.

Don't waste your time posting to me, I actually gave up reading your replies several posts ago.

You seem to think your opinion is more valuable than any professionals quoted here, I don't share that view.

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by rowingmom:
Maia - can you address this please, and explain why the same mode of transmission would not apply to other live attenuated vaccines, ie. MMR

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24076325

Viral shedding has been observed with two vaccines, the live nasal spray flu vaccine and the rotavirus vaccine. Weakened viruses in live attenuated vaccines can shed, but in weakened amounts. I used to get a mild illness from the flu shot for this reason

A live, attenated vaccine causes a harmless infection. There is no proof that the MMR vaccine sheds the measles virus, spreading the disease prevented by the vaccine. Wouldn't that mean it is mutating back to a virulent state, and wouldn't parent notice the rash upon giving the shot?

Are you asking if the vaccine is spreading the virus? Since measles was eradicated here, I would say that doesn't seem likely. If people are catching a "mild" form of the disease from the shot, for the sake of argument..then, so? What would that mean? That we are getting a mild and benign virus instead of full blown measles and its complications?

I'm not saying all vaccines are created equal, but you need evidence to claim they are causing more harm then they prevent. Finding a handful of people with apparent harm out of millions that suffered no ill effects and were saved FROM harm is not really significant.


Mothers wanting to make informed decisions for their families does not mean you have to entertain the conspiracy theories they pull from the internet. Perhaps they feel attacked because they can't defend their assertions, or are highly suggestible to those theories so no, you will never convince them with facts. Some people just are a bit nutty.

Healhty skepticism is good, I have it for the flu shot. However, I don't use discredited studies and false facts to rationalize my beliefs, then imagine scenarios where the CDC and the Gov is out to get me. Not partaking in that is not rude, or misogynistic, as one member thinks.

And looking, its ok. I know you gave up reading because you don't have any responses to basic questions about your assertions. Your idea of a professional is, well, absurd. Two persons (hooker and Wakefield) who have had papers retracted due to issues with their credibility, both of whom either made or stand to make money off of their claims. And neither of which actually have any data supporting their claims. People who are peddling autism "cure" protocols. I mean, really!

I don't have an agenda, I just am home sick with a lot of free time, and get tired of misinformation. If it makes you feel better, you can believe all the ridiculous theories you want. I've just asked you for documentation, or an actual study with results. That kind of thing.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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'Kete-tracker
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You get the measles vaccine & you MIGHT develop problems.
OR- You MIGHT get measles, & then you MIGHT develop problems (or not).

So *why* risk complications from getting vaccinated, especially if getting the vaccine doesn't Guarantee not contracting measles later!??

I mean... D-U-H!!

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Keebler
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-
Maia,

I was there! That's how I can say that measles did not infect everyone at the same time (even at time before the vaccine was on the market). It was just a comment and one could go on to wonder about all the variables around that.

Not saying measles are not contagious (it is) just - even before vaccine - I was there and saw it sort of went in smaller groupings in families and school.

Yes, by 5th grade, age 11, memory forming does work by then. Talking with a sibling the other night confirmed the year as she was the one with the measles that year. Not the rest of us or the younger kids, though. We had those 2 years or so prior - and she did not catch it then though we shared a bedroom. Just a little puzzling. That's all.

And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.

There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.

And, the point was not that I said they had some miracle at all. The point of what I was saying is that there are some anti-viral herbals that can help the body be strong and, if a virus is contracted, help as it manages through. That's all.
-

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TNT
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.

There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.

Can't get IDSA correct, either.
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docluddite
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Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.
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SacredHeart
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Is this thread still going? Wow. =)

--------------------
Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono

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rowingmom
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quote:
Originally posted by docluddite:
Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.

Thank you.

--------------------
13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement.

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randibear
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I had it all -- measles. mumps. chicken pox and even mono...

because dad was military and we travelled worldwide I was vaccinated out the yingyang or I didn't go to school. I had to have those shot records.

no wonder I'm half crazy...

but the worst was a flu shot I got a couple of years ago. started a spiral downward of which I've never recovered.

doc wanted to give me a tetanus recently and I said hell no.

I'm not a mom but I don't see how y'all do it. I was bad enough with my dog. she sneezed and off to the vet! and she was not spoiled!!!

moms deserve all the help they can get. I miss mine every single minute.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by TNT:
quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.

Can't get IDSA correct, either.
That would be my neurolyme. But I appreciate being made fun of for having Lyme.

Because I employ a healthy dose a skepticism to claims that don't have a strong scientific basis, I am a troll, have a #agenda, not a "credible researcher," that i must be paid(please let me know where the gov can send checks to, as i am currently unemployed and would love to get paid)

I also cherry pick my data (despite having read all links given to me and written out my reasoning), that people shouldn't "waste their breath" just because I expect them to support their claims.

The cake is a am misogynist because I don't think blog posts written by random internet health guru's and moms is appropriate scientific evidence.

As I have maintained, I am open to a small subset of patients having viral or antigen induce autoimmunity. I completely agree that immune compromised individuals should be careful.

But, using retracted studies and posting ones that have nothing to do with MMR, and making unsubstantiated claims (that have been disproven any times over), I don't do. I worked in academia, I read pubmed for a living. 90% of the anti vaccination information is disingenuous, or shows a complete lack of understanding.

Today's immunization schedule calls for kids to get 55 doses of vaccines by age 6. Sounds scary until you realized that in the 1960s-1990s, kids were exposed to over 3,000 antigens and now its ~315.

The believed safety of vaccines is well studied, it's not nefarious. Some scientists are asking great questions. The fetal cells is interesting, so is certain additives like alum. I don't trust Big Pharma, or Big Herbal, or always the CDC. That's why we have researchers who extensively study this, ones that aren't affiliated with Big Pharma.

Every medical intervention has risks. Even antibiotics and aspirin. Just like vaccines, there are warnings on the labels. A young infant recently died from a contaminated probiotic supplement.

We eradicated diseases because of these vaccines along with improvements in public health. If you want to pretend that getting polio or smallpox or measles was no big deal, that's fine. But statistics don't lie, more people have been saved from death and serious complications than have been harmed, as far as we know.

If that's not good enough for you, then opt out and be glad its good enough for most other people, of whom protect yourselves and your children. The recent whopping cough and measles outbreaks confirm that once vaccination rates drop, it just takes an unvaccinated traveler or person with waning immunity to bring back an eradicated disease.

No amount of herbal drops and organic food protected me from Lyme once I contracted it. Upon exposure, measles is contagious. We know this, despite some of you claiming otherwise. Severity of disease is genetic and environmental.

A vaccine protects you from a disease better than any herbal remedies, because it mimics a natural response. Proving harm requires evidence, not anecdotal stories about autistic regression that occurred at completely varying time frames (days, weeks, months..) and ignoral of the purported genetic basis of some autism.

If there is a risk of exacerbating autistic symptoms in those who are predisposed, then that is important and would be grounds for testing to find out who should opt out. If vaccines can trigger autism in a small subset, we need to tease that out so we know what the risk factors are. We haven't found that link yet.

Unfortunately I think there is a strong bias against credible links because people are afraid of being tarred like Andrew Wakefield, even though he deserved it. The Pandemrix story comes to mind.

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Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Keebler
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It's not just about repeated misspelling, though as in the posts the concept of naturopathy does not seem to be fully understood in regards to the scope, the range, the various elements involved.

Most who have worked with a naturopathic physician come to understand the fuller scope in approach (and also where different kinds of medicine - allopathic & naturopathic - may work together).

It's not as easy as just taking this herb or that supplement after a certain infection has taken hold.

Mostly, it's about the individual, knowing them beforehand, and then if the get an acute infection, knowing what would work best for THEIR body. A more comprehensive approach.

Again, it's not so much about the vaccine theory (yet there are other approaches to support immune function, too) as much as the concern about additives and the risk they pose not just in one vaccine but in the dozens that that so many receive -- and how each individual person can or cannot manage, process those. Some just cannot.

There is no one-size-fits all approach to anything about medical care. We are fools to ever think there is and when we do - when we reduce all humans to pegs - it can really harm a lot of people who just don't fit into the perfectly round holes or neat squares.
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beaches
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Really Maia? Your supposed neuro-lyme is the reason for your use of the term "naturalpath" several times?

I know all about neuro-lyme and your story just doesn't ring true.

You are new here and yet you opted to malign a broad group of people who happen to be mothers with your generalizations/assertions/assumptions about "mommy blogs" and the like.

Just for your information, typically the brain matter of mothers is not pushed out along with the baby.

In fact, women who become mothers often acquire knowledge through experience and real life. Go figure!

You have NO idea of anyone's education or professional affiliations here, yet you continue to assume yours are superior to others.

Perhaps it's time you lifted your head up and looked around.

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Looking
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I feel bad for anyone with neuro-lyme. Could be why much info posted is taken from inaccurate sites.

I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering. Biochemical engineers can work for biomedical firms, environmental companies etc.

And indeed a valid "scientist" with many papers on pubmed easily found, especially if one had once worked for them:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Hooker%20BS%5BAuthor%5D&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=18618687

He has over 50 science and engineering papers published in internationally recognized, peer-reviewed journals.

His resume:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/brian-hooker-ph-d-p-e/8/834/891

It goes without saying that taking down Hooker’s paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper. It could simply mean the publishers are being antagonized by industry supporters to the point they don't want to deal with it.

Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right??? Anyone resisting that viewpoint risks their medical practice.

That's how I see it anyway. Just IMHO.

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rowingmom
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As this seemed the place to do it, I am posting a link to "200 evidence based reasons not to vaccinate" from GreenMedInfo.

"...over 300 pages of study abstracts culled directly from the National Library of Medicine's pubmed.gov bibliographic database on the wide-ranging adverse health effects linked to vaccines in the today's schedule (over 200 distinct adverse effects, including death), as well as numerous studies related to vaccine contamination, and vaccine failure in highly vaccine compliant populations."

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/200-evidence-based-reasons-not-vaccinate-free-research-pdf-download

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/sites/default/files/gpub_58635_anti_therapeutic_action_vaccination_all.pdf

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13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement.

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beaches
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I saw this too rowingmom.

Thanks for posting it, from one ignorant "mommy blogger" to another.

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Keebler
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Suggestion for articles (or lists) with good detailed information.

Create your own file pages so if these disappear from the web, all is not lost.

Copy & paste those with the authors' names, dates, journal issue numbers, etc.

And the link, of course, on that page. But, sometimes these kinds of links will just disappear or some of the detail will be deleted.

This happened with some of the links that I had saved with Robert Kennedy, Jr.'s work on this topic. Just gone.

And it's happened with various links for herbal education articles that were very detailed. Just gone.

Also if you use "Tiny URL's" they often expire so be sure to save the full original link - exact title, author, etc. so that information might be searched in other ways if you ever need it.

When printing out detail, it can also help to be sure some of this identifying detail is with an article. Often the link will be printed on the page but not always.
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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by Looking:
I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering.

Having over 50 science and engineering papers published in internationally recognized, peer-reviewed journals doesn't mean you are an expert in immunology, infection disease, virology, etc.

He may be a capable and smart guy in his chosen field, however, he needs to produce data that supports his current hypothesis. Not just critiquing other epidemiological studies. And that data needs to be reproduced, it's that simple.

quote:
It goes without saying that taking down Hooker's paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper.

Except for the fact that we DO know why the paper was retracted.

Medical studies can be retracted by the authors, if they feel some of their work won't stand up to scrutiny or want to re-work it. Wakefield's was retracted because he didn't disclose financial ties,falsified study data, and failed to disclose that his samples were contaminated. It also was never reproduced.

Brian Hooker's was retracted because upon review, he used poor methodology. He used a subset analysis that is prone to false positives, and it was incorrect for the type of data anyway. There is no "conspiracy" there. If he can re-work it and fix those errors, it could be published. My guess is he won't, cause he's been had.

Even IF it was true he only found "statistical significance" among African American males. That makes no sense unless you know he used poor methodology. He was able to rework the data till he found a positive, but only in one random subset of the population.

I think the problem with science currently is how hard it is to understand. Scientific findings cannot prove negatives. The layman also doesn't understand that abstracts get written and presented all the time. Sometimes, it looks like a researcher has found something amazing or alarming, a link might be associated with an event..but then subsequent studies fail to show a correlation.

Positive correlations becomes easier and easier to find the more ways the data is cut. There also can be selection bias, or difficulty in obtaining proper case controls. So you could find a study that purports to show a significant link to Hep B vaccine and MS, but upon multiple comparisons you find no link. Thus it did not stand up to statistical rigor. That doesn't mean the CDC is hiding the nefarious truth.

It also doesn't mean that HepB vaccine NEVER made someone more susceptible to MS, or that vaccine induced autism has NEVER occurred. Or that immunocompromosed individuals have no issues with vaccinations.

What it does mean is that for healthy people, vaccines are known to be overwhelmingly safe. Safer than many of the drugs we use to treat for medical conditions. And safer than getting the diseases them self.The problem is, we accept the side effects when we are treating for a problem we have, but it's much harder to accept them for something we MIGHT have, and something that we haven't seen kill people for decades. Its too abstract.

quote:

Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right???

The difference is, you can produce studies, and MANY of them that counter this thought process. Lyme disease sufferers do have evidence to back up their claims. The vaccine issue is prime terrain for biased and motivated reasoning. There is no evidence of wide scale harm, yet it doesn't stop the internet. And it harms actual people who have autism and how the medical community takes seriously links that do show causality.

--------------------
Sick since 2000
Bulls eye 2005
Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Maia_Azure
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quote:
Originally posted by beaches:

I know all about neuro-lyme and your story just doesn't ring true.

I take a break from the internet for some shoveling the past week, and I come back and you are still making fun of my neurolyme symptoms. How old are you guys?

If my story 'doesn't ring true" then why are there numerous sources of Lyme symptoms that list cognitive issues like:Confusion, difficulty thinking, difficulty with concentration, reading, spelling

quote:
you opted to malign a broad group of people who happen to be mothers with your generalizations/assertions/assumptions about "mommy blogs" and the like.
I'm not maligning people. If you procure sources from the bowel of the internet (+ points if the website replaces "S" with $) and places like "natural news" or "greenmed" I am less likely to take it seriously. Why? Because #agenda. Especially if many of those sources are known to take information out of context and make money catering to a specific crowd prone to that type of thinking. I am a multiple sources kind of person.

And yes, I don't take information from blog posts (unless claims are backed up) or personal anecdotes of your friends mother's child as fact. That doesn't mean I am mean to 'mommies" trying to care for their children. Perhaps you wouldn't be so up in arms about my reference to "mommy blogs" if it wasn't true.

Believe me, my cousin gets all her vaccine info from websites she read on the internet (VACTRUTH!!) and talks to people like they just don't get it. It's refreshing to know that Modern AlternativeMoma is considered an expert in all things medical. [bonk] Which isn't to say I don't agree with some of what she says, but she not a vaccine expert, that's for sure.

quote:

You have NO idea of anyone's education or professional affiliations here, yet you continue to assume yours are superior to others.

No, that is how YOU feel. It is obvious that the problem here is how threatened you feel by other opinions that don't align with your worldview. I am the one here who has been continually insulted as a deflection so that the people I asked questions to don't actually have to respond.

It is true that I have worked in a biological research lab and taken statistical analysis courses, so yes my background would make me more qualified to understand things. That doesn't mean I think i am RIGHT all the time.

If you can procure a study that proves MMR causes autism, by all means. What I have only seen posted is a list of 28 links, most of which were not independent, did not even mention MMR or autism, and only one stated "more research needed." Getting mad at me isn't going to change those facts, and involving me in some sort of elaborate conspiracy isn't either.

[ 03-24-2015, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Maia_Azure ]

--------------------
Sick since 2000
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Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014

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Looking
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Answer to your quote, is that what you meant to say? ---- thought you would know this already.

==========================================
"If you can procure a study that proves MMR causes measles, by all means"
==========================================

Case of vaccine-associated measles five weeks post-immunisation, British Columbia, Canada, October 2013

We describe a case of vaccine-associated measles in a two-year-old patient from British Columbia, Canada, in October 2013, who received her first dose of measles-containing vaccine 37 days prior to onset of prodromal symptoms.

Identification of this delayed vaccine-associated case occurred in the context of an outbreak investigation of a measles cluster.

Therefore, the combination of classic measles symptoms, detection of measles vaccine virus and reactive measles IgM, and lack of evidence of an alternative illness explanation, were highly suggestive of measles vaccine-associated illness.


For the whole thing go here:

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20649

and

Millson D. Brother-to-sister transmission of measles after measles, mumps, and rubella immunisation. Lancet. 1989; 1(8632):271.

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And how would the public even know if it is vaccine strain and not wild measles in an outbreak since they rarely test to see and would they even let the public know if it was?

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Brussels
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Whatever you guys want to do, just read lymenet in the last 10 years.

SO MANY people swear they fell sick AFTER a shot, either with lyme symptoms (appearing exactly after a vaccine), or with worsening of lyme symptoms to the point of no return (to many) that I wonder...

Gigi was an old lymenet member: she lost a baby 3 days after a vaccine shot: sudden infant death.

Too many parents SWEAR their babies died after a shot. Medical doctors always deny the relation, so you won't find any clue to vaccines in their reports of death.

Who shall we believe? Medical doctors or thousands of parents??

Would you really trust medical publications?

Most medical doctors deny we are sick with chronic lyme either!

Well, go figure who you trust: parents or doctors?

Papers will never say children die from vaccines. The doctors who write about such deaths do not admit any relation whatsoever, from start!

I'd rather have my child get measles than the vaccine of measles. Measles is just one more infection, among thousands. We had fought so much in the last decade. Infections are treatable, in my opinion, with different methods.

Vaccine damage is hardly treatable. You got to live the rest of your life with it. That is my opinion.

If I could come back in time, I wouldn't have given A SINGLE shot to my daughter. Possibly one shot after the age of 5. But nothing else.

Dr K is not for vaccines either. I'm pretty sure his daughter is not vaccinated (even though he can't say that publicly). But you can 'get' his view by his discourse.

Being a parent and deciding for our kids is very hard. Only parents of a chronically sick child know how much in on our shoulders.

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