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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Just Flagyl? Or just doxy and Flagyl?

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Author Topic: Just Flagyl? Or just doxy and Flagyl?
SickSam
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If Lyme were my main infection, do you think 500mg of Flagyl 3x daily by itself would bring a herx? Or maybe Flagyl and doxy?

I know, 500mg 3x a day is a lot of Flagyl. I would build up and be careful not to kill myself with it. One Lyme doc I saw (***edited out doctor's initials***) actually prescribed it this way but I never tried it because that is way more than most people take. It scared me.

But do you think the Flagyl by itself would do anything if I started out with just that for a few days?

Thank you all so much for your input.

[ 04-26-2016, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: SickSam ]

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Notti
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Yes it probably will. It's a tough medication that some people don't tolerate very well.

Burrascano writes in his guidelines:

"Important precautions:

Pregnancy while on Flagyl is not advised, as there is a risk of birth defects.

No alcohol consumption! A severe, "Antabuse" reaction will occur, consisting of severe nausea, flushing, headache, and other symptoms.

Yeast overgrowth is especially common. A strict anti-yeast regimen must be followed.

Flagyl can be irritative to the nervous system- in the short term, it may cause irritability, "spacey" feelings, etc. Longer term, it can affect the peripheral nerves, causing tingles, numbness, etc. If mild, a change in dose may be required. Often, extra vitamin B can clear these symptoms. If the nerve symptoms persist or are strong, then metronidazole must be discontinued or these symptoms may become very long lasting.

Strong Herxheimer-like reactions are seen in almost everyone."


He advises 500 to 1500 mg daily in divided doses.
I think starting out with a dose like 500mg 3x a day is probably not the best choice in your situation, since you are having a hard time already. Tinidazole may be easier to tolerate and have less side-effects. It is said to be just as effective.

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SickSam
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I agree, starting with the straight 1500 would be terrible. I already have bad yeast, so I'm trying to take as few abx as possible in finding what will be effective.

I already have the Flagyl, so that's why I'm looking at using that instead of Tindamax. I'm don't think the doc I see close to me would be in favor of taking so much of either one of these. He has his patients only pulse them in the weekends.

I wonder if Flagyl is worse than Levaquin about causing yeast overgrowth?? If not that would be great.

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TF
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Flagyl is the worst in causing yeast. Levaquin didn't cause yeast in me. But, with flagyl, any little bit of sugar, etc. did it. That is why Burrascano gives the warning about flagyl commonly causing yeast overgrowth.

My doc cured me of lyme by giving me 250 mg of flagyl 3 times per day paired with amoxicillin.

That combo gave me my first herx. Prior to this, I had never taken 2 different meds at the same time for lyme and I never herxed. (2 years of lousy lyme treatment--just a waste of 2 years)

Burrascano says that you have to take flagyl at least 14 days in a row for it to be effective. If you have to work up to 14 days, do so. But make it your goal to be on flagyl continuously if you can do it.

Take diflucan to kill the yeast overgrowth and scrub your mouth as Burrascano recommends. It really works/helps.

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SickSam
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Great info TF, thanks! I'm having trouble with yeast just from Levaquin, so I hate to hear that Flagyl is worse. Diflucan doesn't help anymore. I take massive amounts of probiotics though.

What dose of Amoxil did you use? I have a 1500 mg 2x per day prescription, but I think most people take more than that.

So Flagyl and Amoxil, nothing else? And that worked by itself?

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TF
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The goal for someone like you during lyme treatment is to just keep the yeast down to a manageable level. Once you stop antibiotics, then you can work on defeating it totally.

When you go after yeast, I suggest you try the Body Ecology Diet. In fact, my lyme doc told me to eat the Body Ecology Diet throughout my treatment. (But, I found it too difficult.) There is a great website that will tell you all about it. This woman lived it (systemic yeast destroying her life) and figured out how to get rid of yeast. She will teach you how.

She tells you how to make cultured vegetables. My lyme doc wanted me to eat a small amount (1/4 cup) of this daily. (Basically, fermenting shredded cabbage on your kitchen counter.) I did it for the first 3 months. So, I did it during my lyme treatment and bart treatment. Then, I stopped it.

I also had to drink kefir daily. I made my own. It tasted better and I think it is more powerful. You have to get some kefir grains from someone and then just put them in milk and let it sit on the kitchen counter. But, you have to follow all the rules (cleanliness, glass container, no metal touching the grains, etc.)

People in other countries believe that kefir is a key to maintaining good gut health, long life, good digestion of food, etc. They make it and drink it and have their children drink it daily. It is like liquid yogurt but better than yogurt.

When you start reading on the Body Ecology site, you will learn so much about these foods. They combat yeast.

I ate the Hot Quinoa Porridge (recipe on that website) daily for breakfast. It includes stevia and lots of cinnamon. These things are now considered good for breaking up biofilms! Who knows?

But, one thing at a time...

I took 1,500 mg of amoxicillin 3 times per day (every 8 hours) plus probinecid (necessary to keep your body from eliminating the amoxi in a hour or 2) and the flagyl.

You will see that Burrascano says you need the probinecid. Top of p. 18: 500 mg every 8 hours. This is due to the very short half-life of amoxicillin on its own. Without the probinecid, it is in and out of your body in no time.

The doc wanted me on Zithromax and flagyl, but zith gave me hives. So, that is why he put me on the amoxi.

Notice that this adds up to 4.5 grams of amoxi per day. I had no problem with it. Burrascano says that you may need to go up to 6 grams per day. My body weight was 110 when I was treating lyme.

This was nearly 11 years ago now.

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Lymetoo
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Be aware that even a SLIVER of a flagyl tablet can bring a grown man to his knees. (that is a quote from Dr C many years ago)

So .. be careful. Also be aware that flagyl can cause permanent nerve damage.

Sorry to be Debby Downer, but you need to know.

TF has good suggestions on the yeast. You could also try sauerkraut (the good stuff with live bacteria in it) .. to keep the good bacteria in your gut.

--------------------
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SickSam
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Thanks TF and Lymetoo, very good info. I really appreciate it.

I have taken a little bit of Flagyl before (like half of a 250 pill once twice a day on the weekends) and I didn't have a bad herx or anything. That was with doxy and Ceftin. I only did it for a couple of weeks. I'm thinking maybe if I took more of it and more often, maybe something would happen.

I have trouble with getting probiotic foods. I can't shop for myself so that presents a problem. Also I can't fix my own food so making my own kefir and such would be really hard, but I really wish I could. I wish I could find some good probiotic food online somewhere...

What about water kefir? Is that any good???

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gz
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Once while traveling I started taking flagyl three times daily for a giardia infection, a few years before I knew about my Lyme. By the time I got home I was having a wicked herx. I couldn't believe how sick I was when everyone else was okay.

Later on doxy did the same thing to me (the herxing), but adding tinidazole just gave me improvements.

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gz
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Kombucha is a pretty easy one to do. You just need tea and sugar, and a scoby to get started.
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SickSam
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Great to know gz, thanks!

One more (probably silly question): if I tolerate tons of Flagyl with no herx and no problems, that would probably mean Lyme isn't my main infection, right?

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Lymetoo
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Sam, I thought since you had kids that you were married?? Are you home alone?

Here is a good brand of sauerkraut:

https://www.azurestandard.com/shop/product/4141/

Also... the kefir should do just as well if you can tolerate dairy.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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SickSam
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Yeah, I am married, but our kids are so little and I'm so hard to take care of, I can't ask my wife for more because she's already giving her all and then some. She had to quit her part-time job last year to take care of me. She's stretched so thin cooking my organic food, getting my meds, chasing our wild 3-year-old, maintaining our car, etc etc etc. She's so stressed.

I looked at the link to the sauerkraut and they don't ship it. [Frown] But thanks for sending me the link, I wish they did! I've tried to find a good brand online myself and I haven't been able to.

My wife has looked in the Kroger here too and she can't an organic one. Im thinking that would be important??? And no way I could ask her to check other grocery stores.

I do have a hard time with dairy products too. That's kinda why I was wondering about the water kefir.

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Lymetoo
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Oh, I understand that she has her hands full. I just got worried that you were at home alone!

Here's another Bubbies:

http://www.shoprite.com/pd/Bubbies/Sauerkraut/25-fl-oz/038261857477/

Water kefir is OK as long as it has good bacteria. Kevita brand is supposed to be good and I don't think it's hard to find locally.

PS .. I know of several people who have used Bubbies. Good brand.

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SickSam
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Not alone thankfully [Smile] I couldn't stay alive by myself!

Well I tried that link too and you have to have a rewards card to even try to check out, and it looks like you can only get those in a store. [Frown] I'm wondering if they'd even ship just one jar. The one place I can find who'd ship it sells it in a case of 12. I'm thinking it probably has to be refrigerated in shipping maybe??? That might be the trouble.

I'll keep looking, and I'll see if I can find the Kevita too. Thank you!!!

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foxy loxy
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I was just put on metronidazole 2000 mg daily. In the beginning of my illness this was the only drug that largely gave me relief. Then it stopped working for quite a few years. Now, since giving it a break, I am going to try this mad dose!!!

It can be a really good drug. One of the best in my experience!

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SickSam
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Wow, that is a huge dose! Glad to hear it helped so much before, hopefully it'll do it again for you. I really think I'll try it. Thanks!
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TF
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Sam, if you can tolerate a med that kills the spirochete form of lyme paired together with a cyst busting drug (like flagyl or tinidazole) THEN I would say that lyme is ot your major problem.

The test is if you take the proper dosage of each med together.

I say that because lyme can evade flagyl alone by turning into the spirochete form. And, it can evade amoxi alone by turning into the cyst form.

That is why my amoxi alone treatment for nearly 2 years never made me herx. But, if you take two different types of lyme meds together (one that kills the spirochete and one that kills the cyst), then the lyme has no way to evade the combo of meds and you will then be killing lyme. That will cause a herx (except that some folks detox so well that they don't herx, they just get better!)

But, if you use amoxi, you also have to take probinecid.

This would be such a great experiment if you could do it.

People get sick on flagyl, according to my lyme doc, because it kills so many things. It kills parasites, viruses, etc. So, many people who don't have lyme get sick on it when a doc prescribes it for them. For example, an elderly friend of mine could NOT tolerate it and said she will never take it again.

I took it a few years back for C diff (that I got from long-term treatment of a sinus infection). It really laid me low! I had to persevere and after about a week, I came back to the land of the living. But, that week was wicked. The gastro's office encouraged me to persevere with it because they hear this from so many patients when they put them on flagyl.

So, if you get really sick with flagyl, you may actually have other things in your body that it is killing in addition to lyme.

BE SURE you take flagyl with food!

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SickSam
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That's what I'm thinking. Flagyl kills so much that maybe it'll kill whatever is my worst bug even if it's not Lyme.

I herxed so bad on just Cefzil (the only time I have really herxed) and I was only taking Bactrim with it. I wasn't on any cyst-busters then, so I'm wondering if I start with just the Flagyl if it would cause me to herx by itself, then maybe a week or two later I could add in a cell wall drug (even if I don't herx on just Flagyl).

Dr. J recently posted on his blog that Flagyl was found to kill spirochetes and cephalosporins were found to bust cysts. He talks about how we've had it backwards all along. I thought it was a pretty interesting read.

So maybe I'll try Flagyl and Amoxil and see what happens... If I tolerate both of them together for a couple of weeks then maybe I could move on from there. But hopefully they'll be difficult to tolerate.

I did just add in artemisinin (you actually suggested this to me almost a year ago TF) so I'm hoping maybe pulsing it with the continuous Bactrim might do something. I'll see how that goes before I move on.

I've had low iron since I've been sick so I'm thinking whatever bug this is likes to eat iron, and it seems like art kills iron-eating bugs from what I've read, so I'm hoping it'll do something. I do know to not take it alone, because of resistance problems.

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tulips
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Just a thought and I haven't read all of the above posts. If you already have bad yeast, I would think abx would make it worse unless you can get a script for something that would control yeast. You could take Cats Claw in place of the antibiotics but I don't know if there's an herb that acts like a cyst buster in place of Flagyl. You could try Banderol and Samento.
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klutzo
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This thread is old, so I hope someone sees this. I found it searching for metronidazole.

I've had Lyme 30 yrs., misdiagnosed for the first 21 yrs. and by then was allergic to all ABX except fluroquinolones and metronidazole. I was diagnosed with two positive QRiBb tests, cutting edge at the time, but no longer used. Neg. for Babs and Erlichia, not tested for Bart. I have continued to develop more and more illnesses and problems, slowly withdrawing from life.

Due to the ABX allergy, I took Samento for 4 years of constant, agonizing herxes at tiny doses and had so many Lyme rages on it I had to stop. I did not get worse during that time, but not better either. I also took some Cumanda and Banderol, Burbur, etc. but only Samento made me herx. When I finally made it to 9 drops of Samento a day, which I could not tolerate for long, I developed the expanding rash that cleared in the center, and it repeated 3 times in 3 months in the same place on the back of my thigh where it meets the groin, which I read is the most common place for ticks to bite people.

I have been tested and have one each of the genetic methylation defects that limit detox ability.

Recently, I was put on metronidazole for a month to combat a bowel infection, and while I was on it I was 99% NORMAL. All sx of ALL my problems disappeared, and I slept through the night for the first time in over 25 yrs. Depression, anxiety, heart arrhythmia, back pain, IC, IBS, digestive issues, blurry vision, poor balance and many, many more stopped cold after only 2 days on the drug and slowly came back during the 10 days after I quit taking it.

Does anyone have any ideas on what this might mean?

Thanks!
klutzo

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TNT
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quote:
Originally posted by klutzo:
Recently, I was put on metronidazole for a month to combat a bowel infection, and while I was on it I was 99% NORMAL. All sx of ALL my problems disappeared, and I slept through the night for the first time in over 25 yrs. Depression, anxiety, heart arrhythmia, back pain, IC, IBS, digestive issues, blurry vision, poor balance and many, many more stopped cold after only 2 days on the drug and slowly came back during the 10 days after I quit taking it.

Does anyone have any ideas on what this might mean?

Thanks!
klutzo

Other than Flagyl supposedly has activity against the spirochete and cystic form of borrelia, I couldn't tell you why it is helping you so much.

One thing I can tell you is that it surely seems you should keep taking it!!! I normally advise against this ABX, but it seems to be the right thing for you.

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bluelyme
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Flagyl stops the flagella...hence its name ...tinidazole may be easier ...they both are carcinginic. ..intersting read above as i too have low iron ...also that dr j think cephasporins and azoles have opposite effect.. tnt are you feeling any better ?

--------------------
Blue

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TNT
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelyme:
... tnt are you feeling any better ?

Not much better, bro, but continuing onward. I started back on my ABX and that has been helping. Omnicef and Zithro. is a good combination for me. The stinging is going well, but the melittin definitely seems to be eating biofilm and perhaps apicomplexans. Still seems like BLO is my biggest problem.
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packypacky
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I find this thread very useful so would like to chime in.

I've never taken -nidazoles with amoxicillin/ceftin or doxy together, and I've never had a herx.

However, the -nidazole I have is ornidazole, which I feel very gentle, almost no side effects that I can tell. And the worst side effects are from Ceftin, heart racing, nausea, anxiety.

So I just want to confirm, can I take Ceftin with ornidazole together, and how much should the dosage be? and for how long should I take them together for?

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klutzo
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Thanks, TNT

The doc who gave me the Flagyl is my GI doc. Knows zip about Lyme and would not give it to me unless she thinks I have another bowel infection.

I notice you take Zith. Just shows how different we all are. My two most life-threatening reactions were to Amoxy and Zith.

I was tested after intense use of probiotics for a month after stopping the ABX and had lots of bifidus but zero lactobacillus even a month after the Flagyl. I read it is the hardest ABX for your good bacteria to recover from.

I had no idea it was carcinogenic, bluelyme. Yikes! Heck of a trade off.

klutzo

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klutzo
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Thanks, TNT

The doc who gave me the Flagyl is my GI doc. Knows zip about Lyme and would not give it to me unless she thinks I have another bowel infection.

I was tested after intense use of probiotics for a month after stopping the ABX and had lots of bifidus but zero lactobacillus even a month after the Flagyl. I read it is the hardest ABX for your good bacteria to recover from.

I had no idea it was carcinogenic, bluelyme. Yikes! Heck of a trade off.

klutzo

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bluelyme
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Tnt you are the bomb...are you stinging 3x a week? Any microscopy of them with venom?

Packy they should be ok together check interaction table online, one for spirochettes one for cystic form...that ornidazole looks like it has long half life

You may want to pulse it ...also not sure about bbb penitration. ..looks similarly chemically to alinia which i hear is good but can be rough to tolerate...

As far as duration ..burrescano says 2 months symptom free...there is no formula but he has seen people get better 20 ys experience....

There is replicating time of borrelia, coinfections ,intercelluar infections and life cycle of blood cell..even they are just guessing ...top ducs are dr j dr h ,lymemd and others

--------------------
Blue

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TNT
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelyme:
Tnt you are the bomb...are you stinging 3x a week? Any microscopy of them with venom?

2 stings every 2 or 3 days.

No, I haven't looked at my blood since starting. I know, it don't make sense, but I guess I'm just a bit bummed out recently about looking at my horrible blood. I will soon take a look, though I doubt I will notice much difference. Sorry for the downer.

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packypacky
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quote:
Originally posted by bluelyme:
Tnt you are the bomb...are you stinging 3x a week? Any microscopy of them with venom?

Packy they should be ok together check interaction table online, one for spirochettes one for cystic form...that ornidazole looks like it has long half life

You may want to pulse it ...also not sure about bbb penitration. ..looks similarly chemically to alinia which i hear is good but can be rough to tolerate...

As far as duration ..burrescano says 2 months symptom free...there is no formula but he has seen people get better 20 ys experience....

There is replicating time of borrelia, coinfections ,intercelluar infections and life cycle of blood cell..even they are just guessing ...top ducs are dr j dr h ,lymemd and others

Took 500mg Ceftin and 500mg Ornidazole together last night. Surprisingly, with Ornidazole there was no side effect from Ceftin was observed. Felt clear headed quickly with Ornidazole. I was expecting herxing if it truly works but why I felt instantly better? [confused]
For the above dosage, if two times a day, I have three weeks' supply of Ornidazole. should I add in or pulse in something else? Cats claw? Clathromycin?

Thanks !

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SickSam
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Just some new info on my original question, in case anyone else searching this thread finds it useful.

I saw a new, amazing doc (one of the best in the country I'm told). He uses flagyl as monotherapy and has good success with it. He says some patients need a second antibiotic added but that many improve greatly on just flagyl.

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packypacky
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quote:
Originally posted by SickSam:
Just some new info on my original question, in case anyone else searching this thread finds it useful.

I saw a new, amazing doc (one of the best in the country I'm told). He uses flagyl as monotherapy and has good success with it. He says some patients need a second antibiotic added but that many improve greatly on just flagyl.

Great to know, thanks, can you share the dosage and duration he suggest on Flagyl ?
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SickSam
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Sure, since I haven't shared his name I think it's ok to share that info.

He recommends starting very low, possibly with even just a "sliver" of a pill, depending on how much it makes you herx. You basically increase the dosage as you are able to tolerate it, up to 500 mg 3x daily, although he says most people can't tolerate a dose that high.

I'm really not sure on the duration though. I know you can go at least four months, by I'm not sure beyond that.

So basically just listen to your body and don't give it more than it can handle.

Another doctor told me they would never give a patient that much flagyl, due to neuritis concerns, but I trust my new doctor more.

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SickSam
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packypacky, I seem to feel instantly better when I take flagyl too. It makes me feel wired, like a stimulant. I just tried it again yesterday to see what would happen, and that's what happened. It happened when I tried it before as well.
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