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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Treatment Question

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Author Topic: Treatment Question
eng
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Hi all,

I am a new member and first time poster. Happy this site exists. I am posting because I have a question and I am wondering about what your thoughts may be.

On Saturday night, March 12, I was in the shower and spotted something on my thigh. I initially thought it was just a piece of just something stuck on my leg so I pinched and pulled up and nothing happened. So, I did it again, looked at it and couldn't figure it out so I put it on the wall and it began to move so I put it in a plastic bag and come to find out I pulled out a live adult deer tick. It was still alive and still flat.

That Monday I called my PCP and they asked how long it was attached. I told them I "think" it was in me for about 10 hours but I could not be sure. It was in the front thigh so I feel I would have noticed it if it was there for days. They said since it was less than 36 hours that we would do a wait and see if I develop Lyme or not. I asked about tick testing and they did not know about these tests.

After doing some research, I became uncomfortable with the wait and see approach so Wednesday the 16th I decided to get a second opinion at a walk-in clinic. They took the tick for testing and called me today, March 22, to let me know the tick tested positive for Lyme and that they want to put me on a doxycicline (200mg/day) for 21 days.

I have no symptoms but I do feel I should be proactive. Does this anti-biotic course seem reasonable? I have no idea what doctor to trust. Should I see a LMD? I am in the process of trying to contact one anyway but just wondering what people's thoughts are.

Thank in advance. Take care.

[ 03-23-2016, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: eng ]

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Keebler
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1. Get a paper copy of that test in your possession for your files at home.

Right now. Don't sound overly excited, of course, but first thing tomorrow morning, call the person who does the paper work at that office and tell them that you just need it for your file.

2. yes, go get that doxycycline. However, I would try to talk your doctor into ALSO prescribing FLAGYL with it.

You might schedule with a LLMD for testing COINFECTIONS.

If the tick is still at that lab, they may be able to test for some. your current doctor may do that.

Bartonella, Babesia (thought there are various strains), Ehrlichia, Anaplasma, etc.


And, while early treatment (if it's more than just doxycycline, may help prevent lyme from really taking hold) rarely does a tick carry just lyme. sorry


3. liver support is vital BEFORE you begin. Take a couple hours separate from any Rx.

4. Probiotics, too. To help prevent candida overgrowth from antibiotics. Avoid all simple sugars, too.

I can't explain why the flagyl, it's so that the doxy does not force the lyme spirochetes into cystic form (as flagyl is what prevents / addresses the cystic form).

most doctors don't know about that.


If, by chance, you don't have a spleen, you must be extra careful about BABESIA. That should be considered immediately.
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Keebler
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Oh, a tick does not need to be attached any amount of time. That's a huge myth. Even a break in the skin with an infected tick can transmit.

But since your tick tested, glad to hear at least they are willing to go ahead with something.

Too early for you to get a test, though.

Yes, be proactive. and as complete as you can
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Keebler
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How taking just doxycycline (or any antibiotic) can cause Chronic Lyme:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=120369;p=0

Topic: replication within cystic forms of lyme


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/132505

Topic: How quickly can lyme change forms?
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Keebler
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http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.


PROBIOTICS SHOULD START right now, too.
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Keebler
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Doxycycline cautions:

1. Even autumn or winter sun, even early morning or late afternoon sun can burn. "Doxy burns" can be very rough.

avoid sunlight on your skin (even "bounced" sun - or through a window) even for weeks after stopping doxycycline if you go onto a different antibiotic.


2. Food with doxy is vital to protect stomach. But no dairy. Do not take with any multi minerals, either. The food minerals will lessen the medicine level and make it not as effective.

A substantial meal, in the middle with some food before and after the doxycycline really matters.

Protect stomach but do not take a PPI - proton pump inhibitor (they have some negative effects). take doxy with a substantial snack or meal - in the middle so you've got some food before and after

Avoiding gluten can help with the stomach, too.

3. keep torso as close to upright as possible for at least 30 minutes after doxycycline taken so as to help protect esophagus from the irritation it can cause if lying down.

Depending upon the angle of the particular chair, the most upright position of a recliner MIGHT be okay if you must rest your head or put your feet up, just don't slink down.

PROTECT EARS / HEARING - when taking certain Rx, the ears need protection. Ear plugs with a hair dryer . . . decibel rated muffs with a blender, vacuum, lawn equipment, etc.

Liver support may offer some protection for ears but physical cover and noise avoidance also vital.

Careful around loud music and best to avoid in the ear pods. There is a link in the Liver Support thread that explains why.
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Keebler
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https://sites.google.com/site/getitrighttreatthebite/home

TREAT THE BITE


https://sites.google.com/site/getitrighttreatthebite/tick-borne-diseases

Treat the Bite - Tick Diseases

TBD = tick-borne disease

[TBI for tick-borne infection is not used as that already stand for traumatic brain injury]

You will see TBD used to cover the various infections.

abx = antibiotics (as least here in this forum


www.ilads.org

ILADS


www.lymedisease.org

Lyme Disease.org
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Keebler
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Sorry for so much. Just want to be sure you have the basic basics. As it's after closing time where you live, you can call your doctor in the morning to get the Rx.

I do hope you can get the Flagyl, too. If not, post for what other cyst Rx might work, or supplements. Some say GSE, grapefruit seed extract but I don't have specifics.

Somehow, IMO, all should be done possible to not just take doxy unless you can also address cystic form in advance.

And, take breaks as you read this. Take excellent care of yourself with nutritious foods, rest, exercise (but may not push it too much).

If you are studying more about lyme, interject BEAUTY during your breaks. Get out in nature (oh, yeah, I know . . .) as nature is still so vital to our health. Just steer clear of vegetation.

Take care. Good luck. Others will come around with their thoughts, too, and some may differ from mine. It's good to have a wide range of replies.

You know, that not everyone bitten by an infected tick develops disease. Some get lucky. So there is something to that. It's just hard to know and since you know the tick was infected, I'd do something.

There may be other methods to consider as well.
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eng
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Thanks Keebler. So much to read. Is the reading suggesting if I take doxycycline alone that I could cause more damage?
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Keebler
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I firmly, most certainly do think so.
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me
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I recommend you go to a LLMD asap. *You don't want to mess around with Lyme.* In the meantime, I am of the opinion w with what Keebler suggests: get paper copies of the tick that tested positive and begin an appropriate antibiotic combo prescribed by a doc.

Again, please go to a LLMD. You need to be checked for coinfections, too. Please let us know if you need a referral to a good LLMD.

Great job getting the tick and sending it to the lab.

Best

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eng
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Hello and thank you very much. I posted in the other thread asking for an LLMD referral.

Just out of curiosity, if I can't get a combo should I wait for an appointment with an LLMD?

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me
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Sending you a pm with LLMD recommendation
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Keebler
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If you can't get the combo, what I would do is go ahead and get the prescription for the doxycycline. Get it filled. Take it home.

At the doctor's office, ask about TESTING FOR COINFECTIONS.

Back to the lyme matter treatment at hand:

As you are experiences no symptoms at this time, I feel a little (a little) better in thinking that maybe you have a some wiggle room here and can not jump into the single abx approach that can doom the process.

I would take an anti-cystic Rx or supplement some time prior to first dose of doxy. I don't know how much time prior, though you want it well in your body first.

But I would then do some searching about GSE or other ways to address the cystic form with something you can get on your own. You may be able to figure this out before you actually pick up the doxy and then get started at least in a different eay.

while at the same time, getting on a LLMDs waiting list.

and get books by Harrod Buhner about lyme.
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eng
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Ok so:

- Ask doc for co-infection test. If they say no, any good comeback? [Wink]

- get prescription and hold if can't get a anti cystic Rx. In limbo, research supplements.

- get on waiting list for LLMD.

- Get book

Thanks Keebler. Now that I am totally freaked out I will help my kids with some homework and then get back to this. In all seriousness, I do appreciate your help.

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eng
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
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I firmly, most certainly do think so.
-

Hi Keebler.please do not be insulted that I am asking this question as much of this information I am learning for the first time tonight. But I read in the paper, 'Treat the Bite' that a normal course of action is 21 days of doxcycycline for an adult. Your post however had given me serious pause. I am going o library to grab one of the recommended boos tomorrow. Hopefully I can find some info there to bring to doctors.
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bluelyme
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Good luck eng ...you are fortunate to catch it early...did you get the red ring? You can get flagyl or tinadazole from overseas ...

--------------------
Blue

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eng
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Thanks Bluelyme,

No ring.

As for flag or tinadazole, I don't feel comfortable this early in my knowledge self prescribing because I just read this from Dr.Burrascano's Advanced Topics in Lyme Disease. He writes on page 15:

"Because there is laboratory evidence
that tetracyclines may inhibit the effect of Flagyl, this class of medication should not be used in these two- and three-drug regimens. Some clinicians favor tinidazole as this may be equally effective but result in fewer side effects."

If I'm reading it correctly then I should not take doxycycline. Yet on page 18 he writes:

"Consider Doxycycline first in early Lyme due to concern for Ehrlichia co-infections."

Therefore, I'm stumped.

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dal123
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200 mg ain't enough. Must have 400 Mgs. This is what's prescribed to dogs who who weigh less than half of you. It will settle into chronic Lyme so you must have a higher dose plus flagl or tindamax and plenty of herbals.
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eng
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Thanks. I think this is why I need an LLMD.
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Notti
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The advice of the walk in clinic isn't bad at all, in my opinion. If you feel safer asking an LLMD for advice that is of course an option as well. I wouldn't postpone treatment though.

The best way to treat a tick bite without a rash and/or symptoms is still under discussion. It is however very important to start treatment as soon as possible.

Doxycyline is in fact a good choice because it would also treat a possible co-infection with Ehrlichia or Anaplasma.

It's good to be aware of any symptoms or a rash that may occur later on. You are treating early though, so you have a good chance of getting through this without further complications.
You did the right thing by asking a second opinion and having the tick tested. So there is no reason to panic or to buy a stack of books or anything :-)


ILADS information. What do you do if you get a tick bite? :

http://www.ilads.org/lyme/what-to-do-if-bit-by-tick.php


ILADS Guidelines recommendation :

"Clinicians should promptly offer antibiotic prophylaxis for known Ixodes tick bites in which there is evidence of tick feeding, regardless of the degree of tick engorgement or the infection rate in the local tick population. The preferred regimen is 100–200 mg of doxycycline, twice daily for 20 days. Other treatment options may be appropriate on an individualized basis."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2014.940900#/doi/full/10.1586/14787210.2014.940900

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soccermama
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Your proactive attitude has saved your bacon! Realize that there are alot of people that get bit by a tick, receive treatment and are fine.

Don't hesitate to take the medicine while you wait for your appointment with an LLMD.

Look, there is ALOT of scary stuff about lyme disease and its coinfections on the internet but
there are people who test positive for lyme and never become symptomatic. Why?

One of the reasons for that is their immune system fought the infection. Stress is a big hit to the immune system and worry causes stress.

So, I would avoid over analyzing and over thinking. Make an appointment with the LLMD, take the medicine, boost your immune system,and live your life.

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TF
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Since you were able to pull the tick off and it was whole and alive, it sounds like it had not yet attached itself to you.

So, if it was not attached but still looking around for a spot to bite, you have a good chance of not getting sick from this episode.

If the tick had bitten you, it's barbed mouthparts would be inside you and when you pulled off the tick, they would remain in you and the tick would be dead. You would see the little black mouthparts in your skin, and you would not be able to get them out due to the barbs.

So, in your case, and since you did NOT get the lyme rash, and I assume you have no symptoms since this happened, I would just take the doxy and watch for symptoms.

You can see a good list of symptoms on pages 9-10 of Burrascano.

I got lyme twice and was cured twice by going to a lyme specialist who followed Burrascano.

If you do not even have a red dot (meaning broken skin) where the tick was on you, then you likely will not get sick at all. Use a magnifying glass to examine the spot closely. If you have no evidence of a bite wound, you likely were not bitten.

See p. 19 where Burrascano talks about an "Embedded Deer Tick With No Signs or Symptoms of Lyme" Sounds like your tick was not embedded at all, so you were not yet bitten. That is great!

Let us know! I don't think I would spend the money it costs for a first-time lyme appointment if I didn't have any evidence that the tick broke the skin. You are talking many hundreds of dollars.

I find ticks on me yearly since I attract ticks. If they are just crawling around on me, I remove them and kill them or save them in a bottle (I hear they can chew through baggies) and forget about it.

However, if the tick left a red mark at all, then you definitely should try to get at least 300 mg of doxy per day. If you get any symptoms at all, then make an appointment with a lyme specialist.

I take ticks off of my husband and just keep the tick and watch the spot. I find about 3 per year on him. Some of these ticks are definitely partway in him. I use a tick remover and patiently, lightly pull on the tick and wait for it to remove its mouthparts on its own.

Many times, the tick has not yet bitten. They search around on you for a good spot. That can take many hours in some cases.

So, if you believe the tick was not embedded in you, then just take the doxy and watch and wait for a rash or symptoms of lyme.

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eng
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Tick was definitely embedded because I thought it was a pice of cloth and tried wiping off and wouldn't come off.

I then thought it was my hair so I picked it from my skin, put on the wall, and realized it was a tick, still alive and body in tact.

I had a red mark on my skin that went away fairly quickly but with close examination I could see a break in the skin.

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TF
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Ticks never wipe off. They always stick to you.

Sounds like it was just starting to bite you. So, that is good.

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eng
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Hi Forum,

I want to thank everyone for your help. I read a ton over the past few days, read sections of the book "Why I can't get better". I feel I am much more educated now.

Here is my plan:

- I started the doxy 200mg/day for 21 days. I am also taking a probiotic and milk thistle with it. After the 21 days I will try to get one more weeks worth.

- After I am done I with doxy I will take grapefruit seed extract because I read doing it during can limit effectiveness of doxy.

- As I do this I will contact an LLMD AND go back to the doctor who prescribed the antibiotics and see if he will up my dose and length or just go to another walk in clinic.

As a side note, here is a funny story that im sur happens all the time. I went to PCP and even with all my evidence of tick having Lyme, are still wanting a wait and see and test me for Lyme in 5 weeks.

The doctor asked how I was feeling and I mentioned tired and a bit achy on and off throughout the day. I am still able to exercise though and feel better after (this was before I was bit as well. Everyone is sick around me and I haven't been sleeping or hydrating).

The only thing he would offer me was one 200mg tablet of doxy then asked if I had anxiety. I was so pissed off.

So thanks again and I will keep you all poated. Any and all advice is always welcome.

Cheers!

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eng
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Hi all,

Just thought I would update all of you because you were all so kind.

Tomorrow I will be done with my 200mg/day of doxycycline.

In addition I saw an ILADS doctor today IN MA who accepts some insurance. A one hour visit for a only co-pay.

Although I am almost done with my course, he strongly recommended that I take 400/mg a day for the next 3-4 weeks to be safe and take 50 billion a day of probiotic as well.

He said if it was him, he would do it.

Thanks again everyone.

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TF
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I would definitely do what he says.

See the quote from Burrascano:

"*Doxycycline- Adults: 200 mg bid with food; doses of up to 600 mg daily are often
needed, as doxycycline is only effective at high blood levels." (page 18)

"bid" means twice per day.

Since you have not been taking a high enough dose of doxy, you cannot feel sure that the lyme has been killed. He is offering you a proper dose of doxy. Jump at it.

Watch for any symptoms. Watch out for a herxheimer reaction once you start the higher dose of doxy.

If you feel worse after 2-3 days on the doxy, that is a herx reaction and means you are definitely infected.

A herx can be as mild as just getting exhausted very easily and having to rest for a while numerous times per day. Or, it can be needing to sleep or take a nap daily.

Keep us posted on what happens when you take the proper dose of doxy.

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eng
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The doctor said that he is not sure I have Lyme but I should take.

I am a bit nervous of being on antibiotics for so long though. At the end I will total 21 days of 200mg/day and 21 days of 400 mg/day.

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TF
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Oh.... just know that if you have lyme, you will likely be on antibiotics for over 1 year. Most take them for 2 years or more.

So, much better to take another 21 days now and avoid that if at all possible.

I was on antibiotics for lyme, babesiosis, and bartonella for over 3 years without any break! This is typical.

So, your perspective changes radically when you have lyme.

See page 22, "Safety" in Burrascano Guidelines. Here is a quote from that section:

"Remember, years of experience with chronic antibiotic therapy in other conditions, including rheumatic fever, acne, gingivitis, recurrent otitis, recurrent cystitis, COPD, bronchiectasis, and others have not revealed any consistent dire consequences as a result of such medication use. Indeed, the very real consequences of untreated, chronic persistent infection by B. burgdorferi can be far worse than the potential consequences of this treatment."

I had rheumatic fever as a 6 year old child. I took antibiotics for it for a lengthy period of time. I took them off and on from second grade through 9th grade. At first, I was on them for many months.

And, if you know anybody with TB, you know that they take antibiotics for over a year.

Many teenagers take antibiotics for acne for years! So, you can adjust your perspective based on all of this.

Make sure you take the probiotics. This will help keep the good flora in your gut.

Take them at least 2 hours after you take the doxy. So, if you take the doxy twice per day, take the probiotics twice per day also.

If you take the whole 400 mg of doxy at one sitting, that is even better (per Burrascano--see top of page 14). It makes everything easier.

Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Brussels
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I find this thing a bit too crazy. One year on abx without even knowing he has lyme???! [Eek!]

No way I would do that. Imagine if everyone jumped on ONE YEAR COMBO ABX after every tick bite???

What about candida? What about digestive problems after? What about a destroyed gut after? Multiple chemical senstitivity? Food allergies?

If he's sure he got lyme, well, that's ok.

Just as preventative measure, I find this is way a crazy alternative, that may destroy your health long term.

Some doctors even do not think lyme is an infectious disease ONLY but MAINLY a TOXIC disease. That is the approach of of the Paracelsius Clinic in Switzerland.


The doctors there have to fix years of damage caused by antibiotics with lyme patients, that remain very ill despite loads of abx combos. And abx adds to toxicity, one of the causes of immune disorders.

If every tick bite means 1 year abx as preventative measure, I suppose most of us living in the coutry side should be taking abx for life!!!

Nope, that's the wrong approach!

How can you put babies on that? And small children? Young adults? On abx cocktails for life? Some even cannot stand a week on those drugs, due to pain and diarrhea.

It's like taking chemiotherapy forever to avoid 'getting' cancer!! [bonk]


Even if one takes one whole year, two years, 3 of antibiotics, one won't be sure lyme will NOT develop.

That is illusion, a belief many here have.


As though you could DISINFECT the whole body, that is made out of MORE bacterial cells than your own.

Same idea with chemiotherapy: as though you could disinfect the body from cancer cells that are produced, anyway, every single day. That is the normal way our bodies work, evolved.

The problem is not the cancer cells. The problem is a messed immune system due to whatever OTHER reasons.

Antibiotics won't solve the problem long term. It won't help your immune system to be stronger. On the contrary, it is only an emergency help to prevent catastrophe, but that help (such as with chemiotherapy) will cause damage.


Wait for next bite, and hell re-starts. Or you don't even have to wait for a next bite. Wait for a relapse.

We're bitten all the time, and so are our neighbors. We live not that far from the area where lyme started (Black Forest). ABX forever cannot be the solution for us. Absolutely not as preventative!

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TF
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Brussels, you have misunderstood.

I am recommending that she take 21 days more of doxy at the proper dosage.

I told her that IF she does have lyme, it is not uncommon to treat for 1 year or more.

She is afraid to take another 21 days of antibiotics, so I am telling her that IF SHE HAS lyme, she will be on antibiotics for a lot longer than 42 days.

I got rid of lyme, babesiosis, and bartonella by taking antibiotics according to the Burrascano protocol.

That protocol requires you to boost your immune system by doing a certain type of exercise (weightlifting for one continuous hour every other day). Antibiotics are just part of the protocol. Supplements and herbs are also a key part of it to restore the damage of lyme.

The Burrascano protocol cured me over 10 years ago. Lyme is a thing of the past for me. And, I had it undiagnosed for at least 10 years before I was finally treated.

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eng
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Correct. 42 days total. Not one year. The tick I had in me was not engorged, but was in me and tested positive for Lyme in a high Lyme area.

Original doc gave 21 days of doxy 200mg a day. I was just about done. New doc said I need 400mg day doxy to be safe.

He said since in high Lyme area and tick had Lyme that he recommends this.

Therefore total is 42 days antibiotics. Not one year.

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eng
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While there is a risk to gut, doc thinks it is highly unlikely due to minimum time frame and taking pro biotic.
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WPinVA
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Yes, I would absolutely follow the clinic's prescription and take the doxycycline. 21 days for an attached tick without symptoms sounds like a decent and proactive approach.

In the meantime, you can try to get an appt with an LLMD and see if they want you to do anything else.

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Brussels
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I understood one year abx as prevention for lyme!
Sorry for my overstatment!

My daughter just got an attached tick TODAY, and felt funny (tummy problems....). I had to pick her at school....

Anyway, a couple of weeks, even a couple of months of abx, we all did that at least once!

Wish she does NOT have lyme. Certainly 21 days is a minimum, if she started doxy. 2 weeks is more than proved: does not work. I tried that too!

So our tick bite season started, she got the first bite this year... [Roll Eyes] I'm giving her zero stuff for the bite, just high frequencies and rubbing peppermint oils. She's testing energetically for mycoplasma...

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
-
Oh, a tick does not need to be attached any amount of time. That's a huge myth. Even a break in the skin with an infected tick can transmit.


-
A HUGE myth that the CDC continues to promote.

Lots of Lyme info for you:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/88555

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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