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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Antibiotic resistance

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Author Topic: Antibiotic resistance
ohioperson22
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If someone potentially had lyme in them for 10 years, and they've been on short courses of antibiotics A, B, C, D, and E, then for their lyme treatmet should they be on antibiotics F, G, and H, so to speak?

If antibiotic resistance is as pervasive as it is suggested to be, and if antibiotic resistance to fluoroquinolones can even occur within the course of 7-day treatment, then maybe the reason long-term antibiotics don't work in some is because they lyme has become resistant to that antibiotic.

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TF
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The lyme doc that cured me never questioned me about what short courses of antibiotics I had taken in the past. I had undiagnosed lyme (plus babesiosis and bartonella) for at least 10 years.

In fact, neither did the two previous lesser lyme docs that I saw. So, I don't think this is an issue at all.

In all the times I heard Burrascano speak, he never brought up anything like this.

Lyme docs know which meds work and that's what they use. They work around your allergies and bad reactions to various meds and find what you can take that works for each infection.

Here is a webpage that pretty much makes it simple:

http://www.lymebook.com/antibiotic-treatment-for-babesia-bartonella-ehrlichia-co-infections

If you study the Burrascano Guidelines, you will find out what the issues are that keep lyme patients from getting well.

You can search the document for any word, for example "resistance" by using the "find" function. Just click Control+F and the find box will come up. Type in your word and you can go to every instance of that word in the Guidelines.

I suggest you just read info written by lyme specialists. Then, you will be focused on the true issues.

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Keebler
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While there are certain templates and "rules" with ways to approach - each person's treatment will be an individualized approach for various reasons. What works in one person may not at all work for another.

There is no way to "recipe" this. It's a process of finding what works along the way within certain rules of structure for direct action / strong support.
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Keebler
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You say:

"If antibiotic resistance is as pervasive as it is suggested to be" (end quote)

Regarding lyme, it's not at all antibiotic "resistant" as so often the right combination at the right doses for long enough are not given.

And, lyme is not just antibiotic treatment, it must have other classifications of medicines, too. Antibiotics, alone, will not be enough to address all forms.

Borrelia is not like any other infection, not at all.

Often, coinfections go ignored or similarly undertreated. They usually require drugs that are not antibiotics.

Lyme is not at all antibiotic resistant. What's happened is severe lack of proper combination expanded treatment of several different kinds of medications to address all phases, forms, biofilm, cystic, etc.

And, often, support methods are ignored and that hampers success. If liver / kidney & adrenal support are not on board, a patient has more chance of failure. Same with use of Probiotics, neuro support, nutrients, etc.
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ohioperson22
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http://aac.asm.org/content/49/10/4354.abstract?ijkey=ca4f11620f4de0d40e93b92244facb1c57ccd0ce&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

http://aac.asm.org/content/50/2/445.abstract?ijkey=3cb43b7a2657f923d60b2c87acbc304ba8472770&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

And this one notes that resistance to erythromycin may be related to previous exposure to erythromycin.

http://aac.asm.org/content/46/11/3637.full

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Keebler
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Wormser is not lyme literate. [last link]

Much the opposite. Works by him and his cohorts are trying to undermine the understanding of lyme.

He's a key leader in the IDSA's efforts to undermines lyme patients. See the documentary:

UNDER OUR SKIN


As for the others, there are so many IDSA minded "researchers" who pick one antiobiotic and do some test and then say, "see, it does not work"

whey then are not approaching it correctly with a combination of antibiotics, other kinds of drugs to address the cystic form / biofilm, etc.

Their so call experiments start out just lacking in so many ways. But, because they have the IDSA behind them, their stupidity is touted as expertise.

please see the documentary:

UNDER OUR SKIN - this explains a lot.
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ohioperson22
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Ok, so let's assume the last study about erythromycin reistance is manufactured data, from people whose mission is to deny that chronic lyme exists, and make the lives miserable of poeple who have it.

Do the authors of the first two studies also have that goal, or are they just doing research on bacteria?

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Keebler
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I just added to my reply. It takes me a long time to edit / add, etc. Their experiments are not starting out with the right information in the first place.

They lack the understanding of how lyme works, its intricate nature. No single antibiotic is going to work against lyme.
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Keebler
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http://www.underourskin.com/#home-underourskin

UNDER OUR SKIN
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Keebler
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While the works of IDSA that shout "resistance" are so wrong . . . there is no doubt that treatment even with the best ILADS educated "minded" LL doctor who continues to become more educated each day . . . well, it's complicated.

And some patients do better than others. As you explore options, AFTER you get a good proper assessment by a LLMD,

you might also consider among options, rife - though it's still complex :

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=117755;p=0

RIFE Machine - Reference LINKS
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Keebler
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From the best of the best: ILADS - International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society

http://www.ilads.org/lyme/about-lyme.php

ILADS - BASIC INFORMATION ABOUT LYME DISEASE


http://www.ilads.org/education/member-publications.php

ILADS - MEMBERS' PAPERS & PRESENTATIONS


http://www.ilads.org/media/videohome.php

To get a good look at the issues in diagnosis / treatment:

ILADS CONFERENCE VIDEOS - just go into these and see the various topic. Some you can see short video clips, etc. You can also then Google the presenter's name to see if they have a paper you might read online, etc.
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Keebler
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Mentioned above many time, I've said these infections are so very complex and that treatment is also so very complex. This explains why and how to take it step by step.

And all this is certainly something that no IDSA folks are ever going to consider.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0H3T9HMeQ

"Why Can't We Get Better?" - slides are not showing, but his book has detail

VIDEO

One Hour & seventeen minutes - video presentation
Recorded at Western Connecticut State University on May 12, 2015.

Sixteen point model to consider with any treatment plan for lyme / tick borne infection / chronic stealth infections . . . .

" . . . Really, there are solutions for a vast majority of patients . . . ."

website & book: http://www.cangetbetter.com/

by a leading ILADS LLMD - November 2013

- Why Can't I Get Better?: Solving the Mystery of Lyme and Chronic Disease

and


http://www.lymedoctor.com/

The Lyme Disease Solution

- from a different, yet also highly respected LLMD and member of ILADS. New book due out soon, still the first edition is a "MUST" read. It's just excellent.
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ohioperson22
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Hmmm, always mysterious when someone with a "solution" has something they're trying to sell you.
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duncan
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The IDSA is no different, it's just that the individuals they are trying to sell are not patients...
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Keebler
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Not sure what you mean by "Hmmm, always mysterious when someone with a "solution" has something they're trying to sell you."

[neutral, caring tone of voice here. It's important to hear that.]

I'm not trying to sell you anything. If you say you want the truth, that's where I point.

Rarely write about myself (for many reasons), yet, maybe if you know this, you'll understand my enthusiasm in what I suggest you read, see, etc.

as a former journalist and journalism instructor, those skills are with my approach to learning and sharing the facts with others so, yes, I'll post links to books or videos because those are the experts.

Also remnants of my torpedoed journalism career, I will try to always correct wrongs when I see them in print. Well, at least as best I can in a few posts here and there, as best my energy holds out (I'm very ill and it's very hard to do all this - I never got proper treatment and working with what I can).

I'm rather forceful at times because I don't want the lies out there to ruin one more life.

back to the materials I suggest.

If you don't want to buy them (or can't - I now that, believe me), see if your library or lyme support group has them to loan.

- and as someone who went decades of being so very ill without proper diagnosis / treatment, I am fierce adamant about getting to the facts as soon as possible, I'm trying to save you time and heartache

since had to learn so much on my own even BEFORE GOOGLE was even in existence and before internet access (yeah, there was a time not too long ago)

it's easier now that there is so much available to help us learn

my effort is to point you to the people who are doing this right in the study and continued education of lyme, tick borne disease and other chronic stealth infections.

Trying to cut to the facts. After you watch UNDER OUR SKIN, read Pamela Weintraub's CURE UNKNOWN and check out the links above, you will likely have more questions but you will also have a lot of your questions answered.

Not selling a thing. Pointing to where the answers await you. I truly hope the detail helps. The goal is health, always.

I hope you will save all your threads as resource / reference lists as you sort through your questions to find the answers.

There is no way anyone here can offer you detail in posts as thoroughly presented as that in the books, article, videos, etc. There is much you can read on the web at the links provided, though, for a start.

The thing about learning is that you don't have to believe anything. But it's vital to read as much as you can so that you'll know how to determine the truth, as best possible.

ILADS has been cut out of the mainstream medical world. It's political. Yet, there are place you can read, see or otherwise hear what they have been studying for decades. It's very important.
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Jordana
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Interesting where our research journeys lead us,eh?

Fluoroquinolones and erythromycin aren't first line antibiotics anymore. There are several reasons why.

I don't think borrelia is very resistant to any antibiotic. It's got other methods of evasion that are more sophisticated. However for longterm therapy most LLMDs will switch out known effective combinations to keep borrelia "guessing" anyway.

I'm pretty sure the Wormser group has done some research that is solid but there is so much more knowledge about this now than there was in 2005. I would skip anything written before 2010; there was a contextual change in the way these studies were performed and presented.

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duncan
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Jordana, to appreciate what is being published today, or more importantly, what is not being written about, you might want to read the historical studies.

A short cut, of course, is reading, even studying, Weintraub's book which is wonderfully referenced.

Point is, history is essential to understanding today's efforts - or lack thereof. For example, see any treatment studies emanating from the NIH? Or late stage Lyme?

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TF
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If you do not already know about the "two camps" regarding lyme disease in the medical community, then look at this video put out by a Boston news station some years ago. It explains the two camps and the major medical controversy in which lyme is embroiled:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3_JwDPqGAg

You have to ultimately decide who you believe: the IDSA or ILADS

Once you decide that issue, then you will not read or stew over the things the other camp says. The IDSA says that lyme is rare and easily cured. The ILADS doctors say the opposite.

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ohioperson22
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I was referring to not any posters on this website, but websites linked where the person has a new book with new suggestions, and a price tag. Just making my own observation. But if the next $35.00 book holds the secret to a cure, then I look forward to the day lyme forums don't have to exist.

I did watch "Under our Skin"

And yes, I am left with more questions...

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Keebler
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Vet the authors just as you would a LLMD, find out their expertise, etc.

You can often find many reader reviews at Amazon. These are very helpful.

There are some lyme books on the market well worth their $35. - a million times over.

I guarantee any that I've recommended are, indeed, excellent and will save you much time, money and misery the sooner you can read them. Again, remember the library, your area lyme groups, etc.
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bluelyme
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Op...you also know that many have been floxed...and the soldiers of the gulf were given cipro to prevent the mycoplasma infection and its hard to tell the difference between that and infection...sulfa did something to me

jordana and keebler have done much research. ..i understand the confusion. .i spoke to someone who was not well after 7ys of abx ...she did say abx helped her not die but it was herbs and bvt that has resored some of her life...i am just beginning my journey reltively and value the words of vets like tf and keebs..and others. .thank you for being on the front lines

--------------------
Blue

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packypacky
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Is it the combination of abx makes BB not easy to develop resistance?

But is there any research confirmed there is no resistance in BB? I think more or less there will be some?

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duncan
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It is important to distinguish abx resistance from persisters that survive abx.
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susank
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I studied this.
Concensus is no resistance issues.
Like Duncan said.
I found the info studying about persisters -and the "new" treatment re: pulsing and persisters.

I worry about other pathogens and resistance but not Bb.

--------------------
Pos.Bb culture 2012
Labcorp - no bands ever
Igenex - Neg. 4 times
With overall bands:
IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39
IGG 41,58 IND: 39
Bart H IGG 40

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Jordana
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One thing Burrascano did was combine abx, in order to stop reproduction in two different places in RNA transcription instead of one. So it would shut down Borrelia two different ways.

I am not sure if that's the same as stopping it from developing resistance. It's more like stopping it from getting away.

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Brussels
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All antibiotics will create resistant bugs because they are single bullet chemicals.

Did you read any of Buhner's books? He explains how it happens, and why critters have MUCH more difficulty to create resistance to plants (due to HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of chemicals in one single plant).

Not only Borrelia but any critter is an intelligent being. Same as with you, if someone is trying to kill you, you will use ALL your guns to fight against that.

Same with critters. They do use all their means of fighting antimicrobials, and can teach the next generation easily.

If you read how Buhner describes all those resistance-mechanisms, or defense mechanism, you'll see that, in the end, single bullet chemicals or a couple of combined chemicals have very little chance of success, ..

....if your immune system is not working to help these chemicals.


Even if there were no resistance, don't expect antibiotics OR any killer to kill all the bacteria you want to target.

Only your immune system can do the final job.

If you read the site here for as long as I have, you will see that many improve but not to 100% (but they have their lives back), they still suffer from low grade lyme.

Despite years, if not even a DECADE ore MORE on antibiotics!

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packypacky
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quote:
Originally posted by Brussels:
All antibiotics will create resistant bugs because they are single bullet chemicals.

Did you read any of Buhner's books? He explains how it happens, and why critters have MUCH more difficulty to create resistance to plants (due to HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of chemicals in one single plant).

Not only Borrelia but any critter is an intelligent being. Same as with you, if someone is trying to kill you, you will use ALL your guns to fight against that.

Same with critters. They do use all their means of fighting antimicrobials, and can teach the next generation easily.

If you read how Buhner describes all those resistance-mechanisms, or defense mechanism, you'll see that, in the end, single bullet chemicals or a couple of combined chemicals have very little chance of success, ..

....if your immune system is not working to help these chemicals.


Even if there were no resistance, don't expect antibiotics OR any killer to kill all the bacteria you want to target.

Only your immune system can do the final job.

If you read the site here for as long as I have, you will see that many improve but not to 100% (but they have their lives back), they still suffer from low grade lyme.

Despite years, if not even a DECADE ore MORE on antibiotics!

But taking antibiotics is easier than herbs, do you think I can add herbs in to abx regimes to help with resistance? Worried if the many components of herbs interacts with abx.
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Brussels
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You can, as Buhner says... You got though to read and study more about possible interactions. The more you read, the more you feel confident and can do things on your own too.

I find though easy to find killers within herbs, specially if you go around Buhner + Cowden + Chinese herbs + nosodes. Killing is the easiest part, in my opinion.

The hardest is how NOT to suffer with toxins, herxes. How to improve slowly but surely, after all these pathogens are dead? That is the trickiest part, hardest.

There is a thread now of someone who did 5 years of various abx, but just now started a few herbs and crashed with herx-like reactions.

Herbs are not 'easier' or 'lighter' or more inefficient. In no way I see herbs like that. People are different, so are diseases, so are treatments.

I have no doubt I prefer herbs and other treatments than chemicals. Chemicals do not fit my body (pain, feeling miserable), nor my situation (being bitten often, many times a year).


Making ANY lyme treatment is hard, with or without herbs. ABX only is easier, you're right, but you'll see that virtually NO ONE here will improve only on abx.


They take LOADS of supplements to keep on going. All of us, in the end, will do, if you went so chronic like we did.


Then add all the food control, exercise control, electro-therapies, saunas, infrared, high voltages, Rife, micro-current, whatever people add to their treatments, well...

What is nice is when you feel improvement. They you stop worrying, complaining, of so many strategies, planning, time and resources you dedicate to your health. That happened to me, at least.

The only frustrating part is when you dedicate whole time to healing, and you get no improvement long term. Believe me, if things start working, you just keep doing and that is what pays back the effort!

so whatever you do, just try to get better! Even if it involves complex mixtures of treatments, herbs, supplements.

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Tincup
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First, IDSA idiots/supporters have already said no resistance for Lyme spirochetes. BUT- as Duncan mentioned above, persisters and biofilms are different.

https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/chronic-lyme-disease/antibiotic-resistance-lyme

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Tincup
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Second, we have a fungus among us. You are being jerked around.

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www.MarylandLyme.org
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