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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Does one have to get a tick bite to get lyme?

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Author Topic: Does one have to get a tick bite to get lyme?
ohioperson22
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So apparently one has to get a tick bite to get lyme, and attachment has to be prolonged for transmission to occur.

I certainly never had an adult tick attached to me (I'm very sensitive to bugs). And even a little one I would have noticed in the shower... or no?


It seems most people remember their bite.


Or, as Under Our Skin suggests, is Bb probably actually also transmitted sexually, from domestic animals, and maybe even skin-to-skin (like syphillis)???


I've had thousands of mosquito bites, hundreds of spider bites, and zero 36-hour tick bites.


The bite thing is the one part of my lyme story that is lacking.

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Keebler
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Assumptions:

"apparently one has to get a tick bite to get lyme,"

"and attachment has to be prolonged for transmission to occur."

No. No. Neither is true.

Various vectors can carry and transmit lyme. Mosquitoes, fleas are among those.

As for ticks that are infected is absolutely NOT true that any attachment time is required to transmit infection other than

the mouthparts breaking the skin with that first instant of the bite.

Sadly, though, the impressions you have gotten are due to the IDSA / CDC perpetuating these myths of attachment time of a certain number of hours. The mass market media also further perpetuates that myth. It is simply not true.
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Keebler
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"skin to skin"? No. Not as in hugging, familial touching.

You do not have to worry about that with lyme but, yes, intimate contact can be something to become educated about as it is possible to transmit / be infected with intimacy.

Syphilis is not really skin-to-skin transmission, either. It's okay to hug or touch a person who has syphilis.

However, if there are lesions that seep moisture on the body (though they are mostly in the intimate areas, just not always) such lesions should not be allowed to make contact with other person's skin / eyes. But that is just common sense with any kind of lesions.

That would not be a skin issue but, rather, an open lesion issue. And lyme does not work like that. If syphilis is a concern, be sure to go to the official websites for official details on how to handle / manage lesions.
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Keebler
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"The bite thing is the one part of my lyme story that is lacking" (end quote)

That is not certain. Many can be bitten by a tick and never know it. They can be very tiny, they inject a substance into the skin at very first to numb the skin.

Ticks can be anywhere, even in cities. If birds fly and mouse or other critters scamper about, there can be ticks. Even the penguins at the frozen south pole have been found to have ticks, and even borrelia. They are rare in deserts, yet can still be found in sand.


"It seems most people remember their bite." (end quote)

That's more often when they find a tick still attached. But ticks can move on when they want to, some are so tiny they can go unnoticed for some time (or be hidden in hair, etc.)
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ohioperson22
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Can somebody get lyme from eating rare or medium-rare venison?

If lyme is as ubiquitous it appears as it is, it seems everyone has it, kind of like most of the human herpes viruses.

Everyone; humans, deer, dogs, squirrels, rabbits, cows.


Some LLMD on his blog said humans and borellia have had a relationship for more than 10,000 years.

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bluelyme
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My llmd said louse ,mites and spiders carry it ..dr k says 4 of 10 mosquitos have it ..if they get a cow or deer then bite us..one guy swears he got it from a tear of infected friend...

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Blue

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Keebler
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Q: Can somebody get lyme from eating rare or medium-rare venison? (end quote)

I've not see any article about that yet it is a good question. But you can't go back. There has been a public awareness campaign for sometime to have meat reach a certain temperature so it's good to review that.

A person could contract various infections from undercooked meat from eating it and also from handling it, if they have a cut or abrasion on their hands, etc. could be at risk.

Washing hands, utensils, minding where the liquid bits splash or spread on surfaces and cleaning properly is key.

And with venison (and some other animals, too), prion disease as well. Deer (and moose) seem especially prone to "wasting disease" in some areas and any deer / animal whose health is in question should never be consumed.

Medium-rare may (or may not?) reach the necessary temperature for long enough but rare may not.

As for trying to figure out, at this point, the past is the past and it's not likely to know the exact date, time, minute - and mode of transmission.

From here on, just look up at a couple different "official" or "educated" websites as to the proper cooking temperature for any meat to reach to ensure safe consumption.

Learn about prion / "wasting disease" - always avoid.

For other reasons, be sure you have a proper meat thermometer and that you, and all in your circle of friends / family (or eating establishments) know the rules / habits of safety and are diligent in always following them.

Knowing the source / condition / treatment of the animal - an how its meat has been handled at each point - well, it's all vital for all foods we enjoy and except to nourish us.
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[ 05-01-2016, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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The "tear of an infected friend" is not likely to transmit infection unless that goes directly into someone's blood stream (and not sure how likely that is to happen). Even then, many questions and we don't have all the answers yet. Here's a late researcher who explored the question:

Google: "Lida Mattman" spirochete, tears

then go back and Google just her name. Fascinating & Brilliant research that we lost too soon.

More likely is that the "new to lyme" person acquired it from another source but it had not come to light and that other source might not have been noticed at the time.

Many have it and often get it from the same "colony" of ticks - or mosquitoes - that their loved ones came across. Maybe not at the same time and each person's path is usually unique.
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Lymetoo
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German Study Finds Lyme In Mosquitoes:

http://www.shoutoutaboutme.com/tick-borne-illness/german-study-finds-borrelia-in-mosquitoes/

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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WPinVA
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I think the assumption that most people remember a bite is false. I never saw a tick, never knew I'd been bitten.

Some of the ticks are so small you'd never notice them. And ticks transmit a numbing agent so that the host won't notice them. It's not like a mosquito bite.

It is also not true that transmission only occurs with prolonged attachment. Transmission is *more likely* with longer attachment. That's what the studies have said, but that is often incorrectly interpreted to mean that you can't get Lyme without a certain time period of attachment. That's just wrong. There is no specific "deadline" that this bacteria follows.

As to your question of whether Lyme can be transmitted through other insects or via sex, I think we have to wait for science to catch up for a definitive answer. Personally I would not be surprised if it is transmittable through some of these other channels. There are a lot of anecdotal accounts out there... too many to ignore.

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ohioperson22
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Well, some of these questions come back to the question of: "How am I going to avoid it again?"

Tucking in pants and wearing DEET everytime one goes outside is impractical to impossible... And like it is said above, the ticks go into cities, and even the south pole.

I don't know if I have any co-infections beyond my lyme, but would prefer to never get any of them or lyme again. I read that only long-term SERIOUS lyme patients have sufficient antibodies against OspA and OspC to confer immunity from new bites.

But, honestly, if it is as simple as a mosquito bite (I can never avoid completely), a bed-bug bite (shame on your hotel), or something like that, then life is a b****


But what can I do (rhetorically speaking)? I'll just plug away at my doxy and hope I get better...

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TF
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I'd like to see the proof of this:

"I read that only long-term SERIOUS lyme patients have sufficient antibodies against OspA and OspC to confer immunity from new bites."

There is no immunity to lyme that I know of.

A few years after I was cured, I got bit again and had to be treated again.

I was certainly a long-term SERIOUS lyme patient.

Even many years later, I still test positive on a lyme test.

And, my neighbor has gotten lyme many times. So, you better not trust this. I would be interested in the writer's "proof."

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Lymetoo
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I've never ever heard anything about "immunity" .. I also got sick with subsequent tick bites.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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bluelyme
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Thanks for the prion info keebs,and the mosquitos german study 22...i love this board

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Blue

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Tincup
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At least nine species of ticks, six species of mosquitoes, 13 species of mites, 15 species
 of flies, two species of fleas, and numerous wild and domestic animals (including 
rabbits, rodents, reptiles and birds) have been found to carry the spirochete that causes Lyme 
disease.

The spirochetes that cause Lyme disease have been found in breast milk, the uterus, semen, urine, blood, the cervix, tears, brain, and other body fluids and tissues.
https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/chronic-lyme-disease/afterthebite-articles/it-s-lyme-time-you-knew

Sexual transmission
https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/sexual-transmission

Mosquitoes as Carriers and Potential Vectors of Spirochetes
https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/vector-borne-diseases/mosquitoes--abstracts

Flies- Carriers and Potential Vectors of Borrelia Spirochetes
https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/vector-borne-diseases/flies--spirochetes

Chiggers & Mites
https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/vector-borne-diseases/chiggers-mites--abstracts

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Lymedin2010
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I passed it to my wife sexually & she is in bed now not feeling well.


She does not have all the crazy 2 page symptoms I have, but she has joint snapping, popping, & daily migrating joint intensity pains. And then every now & then she is down with whole body pain & exhaustion.


I believe that I only passed her Borrelia & no co-infections, if anything maybe bart too but no signs yet.

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TNT
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quote:
Originally posted by ohioperson22:
So apparently one has to get a tick bite to get lyme, and attachment has to be prolonged for transmission to occur.

Not so, I have a friend who knows exactly when he got bit and got sick. It was from an ant-bite at a reunion picnic.

quote:
Originally posted by ohioperson22:
I certainly never had an adult tick attached to me (I'm very sensitive to bugs). And even a little one I would have noticed in the shower... or no?

You may not have seen a nymph tick in your groin or armpits, especially if you were not looking for it.


quote:
Originally posted by ohioperson22:
It seems most people remember their bite.

I sure do not.


quote:
Originally posted by ohioperson22:
I've had thousands of mosquito bites, hundreds of spider bites, and zero 36-hour tick bites.

It's very possible to have gotten infected via a mosquito or a spider bite. One of my children almost certainly got lyme and coinfections from a mosquito bite.... they were only 1 month old when they first got sick and the circumstances surrounding it suggests via a mosquito bite.
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Judie
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I agree with TNT.

I don't remember ANY bite.

I've been infected twice. I don't remember anything being attached to me.

I got a Lyme rash at a very obvious place where I would have noticed if anything was there, so it couldn't have been attached long.

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hopingandpraying
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My son got Lyme from mosquito bites, not ticks. He has been ill for sixteen years now.
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Brussels
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Ok, let's be a little less catastrophic. [Wink]

I am always bitten by ticks, and so is my daughter. At least, a few times a year, every year.

We did fall sick with lyme, but no longer.

In my region (Switzerland, near the Black Forest area, where Borrelia first 'appeared'), virtually everyone is in contact with Borrelia and ticks (and biting insects).

Lyme did not appear in Lyme, USA!!

Does it mean everyone here is ill with lyme?

NO!!!

Ticks are very contaminated. Does it mean that every bite with Borrelia will make you sick?

NO!!!

Even if the tick is attached for hours, days. Animals get hundreds of ticks in a life time, they do not usually die of lyme or fall ill with lyme.

does everybody get a cold, flu even if the whole family is contaminated?

No!

This site is a site to support lyme sufferers. OF COURSE we are all afraid of getting bitten again and being sick.

But just remember not everyone catches a cold in a family. Same as for lyme.

Not everyone catches lyme, if their immune systems is working.

Dr. Rau from Paracelsus Clinic keeps repeating that lyme disease is a toxic disease, it is NOT an infectious disease, ...

....in the sense that if you do not treat toxicity (and only treat infection), it will be hard to heal).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grIZ1HPDgFg


At 2.16 (video), those mountains he shows from Switzerland are the mountains I see from my window! I'm fully in the zone where ticks are very contaminated!

And I do not fall sick again after renewed bites (after being totally bed or sofa ridden for months due to lyme).

5.30 : why lyme is not a bacterial disease ONLY

8:10 : 150 American patients come from the USA to his clinic for LYME treatment every year

8:30: lyme disease is just a manifestation of a profound disturbance of the body. You can have other chronic diseases caused by the same disturbance

9:20: the cause is not the virus, not the bacteria.

Change the milieu is a must (heavy metals, fatty acid, vitamin deficiency, etc)

All 150 USA patients per year come extremely TOXIC.

10:54: taking anti-virus is very anti-cellular (it is attacking even your own DNA due to heavy metals).

12:08: patients come with years of antibiotics and anti virals, and still are very ill.

15.00: hyper acidity is another cause of chronic disease (including lyme)

16.00 Why is it lyme so prevalent now? Why was tuberculosis so present, then the pest, Spanish flu that killed thousands, maybe millions of people? Why now no more?

17.00: these diseases come only according to the average milieu of the population

18.30: we eat too much protein (3x more than in 1950), too small amount of minerals (trace elements) (1/5 of 60 years ago)

20.20: cell potential is lowered by lack of minerals!

OK, the rest you guys can watch.

The tragic thing is that we are scared of flies, of kissing, of not washing our hands before eating, of going out on grass, woods... thinking that the only problem is INFECTIOUS, parasitic...

If you have been long visiting lymenet as I have, you'll see that there are MANY people that use ALL SORTS of killers for years, some more than a decade, and are still ill.

The positive thing is: treat your body, your immune system, and lyme may be then past history one day.

I only use natural repellents when I really go in the forest for hiking. I live in the country side, I get bitten in my garden usually, but I do not use any repellents (except for a homeopathic nosode that I ingest to lower the number of attached ticks).

May is my 7th year lyme free anniversary month. My daughter too. Treat other things than infections, and you'll feel safe again.

Posts: 6196 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Paul-NY
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Thank you, Brussels. I find this extremely interesting. Not Dr. Rau, per se, but the concept of building up the immune system and perhaps not needing abx.

Blessings.

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