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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Cat's Claw... the silence is deafening...

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Author Topic: Cat's Claw... the silence is deafening...
ohioperson22
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So I ran a Pubmed search for cat's claw (and it's latin name) and borrelia (and lyme), and CD57

How many results?

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Keebler
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There is only silence when you are in a closed room. And, in this instance, this particular cross search, PubMed is essentially a closed room.

There are other sources for detail about use of Cat's Claw - and quite different, the TOA-free Cat's Claw.

To gain a better understanding of how the original Cat's Claw can be helpful as part of protocol for those with TBD, you might start with the books by Stephen H. Buhner.

Still, PubMed has a couple hundred abstracts for the real Cat's Claw.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Cat's+Claw

Cat's Claw - 165 abstracts


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Uncaria+tomentosa

Uncaria tomentosa - 204 abstracts
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[ 12-05-2017, 05:23 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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While Buhner's writing leans specifically to helpfulness as part of a formula for those with TBD,

below, an overview & the best place to start learning the basics (and beyond) about this herb and its properties is:

http://www.rain-tree.com/catsclawtechreport.pdf

Technical Data Report - 38 page pdf

CAT’S CLAW - “Uña de Gato” (Uncaria tomentosa)

Preprinted from Herbal Secrets of the Rainforest, 2nd edition

- by Leslie Taylor, ND - 2002


References - page 5 - 6 [52 books, articles, medical abstracts, etc.]

Presence of Compounds - page 8

Ethnomedical Information - page 11

Biological Activities for Extracts - page 17

Biological Activities for Compounds - page 23

Literature Cited - page 29 to 35


http://www.rain-tree.com/toa-poa-article.htm

The Cat's Claw TOA / POA Controversy

- by Leslie Taylor, ND - 2002
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[ 06-07-2016, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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http://www.itmonline.org/arts/catsclaw.htm

Uncaria tomentosa (Cat’s Claw)

-by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D
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ohioperson22
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Ok, but all those links you referenced have zero matches for: "lyme, CD57, natural killer, borrelia"
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Keebler
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By reading through Taylor's pdf, some connections will become clearer not so much specific to lyme but in the way this herb works and where there are similarities, etc.

Buhner's work is more specific to its help as part of a plan for TBD. You may be able to borrow his books from your area lyme support groups. Some of his writings are online, too.

To better understand how herbs work:

Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters, many graciously available through their website.

Home: http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tillotson, et al)

He is a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine; She a doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncturist. The third co-author is a doctor of optometry.

HERBAL BASICS [see left side menu for chapters on]

Principles and Traditions

Growth, Manufacture, Quality

How to Evaluate Information

Safety and Regulation

Actions and Interactions

The Language of Herbs

Understanding Herbs
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Keebler
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A wise & educated doctor need not have a study for every action. There is so much more to research besides formal studies that show up at PubMed.

And, quite frankly, many of the pharmaceutical drug studies are skewed & with major faults. But that's another topic.

As for what "makes" it into medical journals and, hence, to PubMed . . . true, there are many herbs that have been studied and some ethno / botanical journals are included along with the stalwarts JAMA and NEJM.

I must say it's very encouraging that abstracts and other kinds of medical writings from around the world also do make it to PubMed and some focus on herbal applications.

However, for someone looking to "studies" unless there has been a specifically designed - and funded - study (usually at a university) it's not going to show up at PubMed in the first place.

Sometimes, a doctor (or group of doctors) who have a certain standing with JAMA or NEJM do have articles included for specific instances of a medical "experience" once in a while.

How studies are designed, generally, just do not work well for lyme. There could be much better laboratory research of all types but funding is just not there.

EVA SAPI, though, is the person to look to for that. As is Alan MacDonald. Find their work. It's excellent. Google will guide to you them.

With brain fog, it is really rough regarding explaining things. That's why I point to those who can do it better:

Tillotson does a better job of it than can I, though, through many pages in that last set above.

And I really hope you can get ahold of all Buhner's books on lyme and TBD. So much there of great value and he writes so well. See the reference citations he lists at the end of chapters if you want to trace his sources.

And, for Cat's Claw, be sure to see Taylor's References - pages 5 & 6 [there are 52 books, articles, medical abstracts, etc. - just reading the titles of those can shine some light]

A wise & educated doctor need not have a study for every action. Research involves a much broader education than just university funded formal studies that make it to PubMed.

I see PubMed sort of like Wikipedia, a place to start. Important and often really great finds - yet it's just a snap shot - just a start to learning about the topic in question. And a much of it is not found on line but in books regarding the observational & historical accounts of worldwide use of herbs over centuries.

Buhner's books would be the best investment if you are interested in herbal approaches, and, even if not as he explains so much about how a body with lyme works (or does not). And he explains much about the various TBD unique natures. So, even if only on Rx treatment, even if using a rife machine, his books are essential to understanding.

If buying a basic set of books for your own personal study is not an option, be sure to connect with your lyme support groups to see if they have a lending library. Interlibrary loan may also have certain books of relevance.
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[ 06-07-2016, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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WakeUp
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quote:
Originally posted by ohioperson22:
So I ran a Pubmed search for cat's claw (and it's latin name) and borrelia (and lyme), and CD57

How many results?

 -

Our tax dollars at work.....LOL
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WakeUp
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I think the point of the OP is that someone needs to document scientifically whether Cats Claw has any effect on the CD57 levels-- which is an excellent question!! The CDC/NIH/AMA/IDSA have billions of dollars, yet Lyme disease is not at all on their radar.

We private individuals are going to have to fund research to answer these questions.

Oh--- Keebler---Pubmed has tens of thousands of scientific studies conducted by actual PhDs -- many from top universities doing research.... in other words, people with scientific credentials. Some of course are drug company shills--- but not all.

Wikipedia, on the other hand---- is just a bunch of random people who sign up to be editors--- many without any academic credentials, and some are junior high students.. Many wikipedia editors are shills from the drug companies, or government shills hired to push an agenda or to take a topic "captive."

There is no real comparison between Pubmed and Wikipedia.

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Keebler
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So as not to be taken out of context, putting my remark in perspective, the reference to Wikipedia and PubMed for anything one is studying was phrased simply on this approach:

as " a snap shot - just a start to learning about the topic in question." [Before then turning to other resources for a wider window.]
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bluelyme
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Proofs in the pudding ...chinese cats claw has helped with my twiching ....pub med ,wiki ,even evi sapi sang a song for nutramedix ...samento banderol better than doxy ....i can drink a bottle of each and no 'erx...how do some people sleep ..oh yeah on a pile of $

--------------------
Blue

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fvertk
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There really is a lack of scientific data on herbals. But there are a lot of factors involved. I'm guessing most medical scientists are worried they'll get laughed out of the field instead of getting their hard work published. It's their CAREER.

If we had robots doing these studies, perhaps things would be different, but that is the inherent flaw with the industry, the fact that there is money involved.

The other question is, yes, we don't know fully if these herbs even work. There are just a lot of anecdotal stories.

If you look at amazon reviews for a number of products (including glucosamine sulfate which scientific studies have shown may be the equivalent of a placebo) they have high reviews, large amounts of anecdotal positives that may guide you into "feeling" something.

There is a very cultish vibe around these medicines (and this is coming from someone raised in a cult).

I do, however, think some of these, including Samento, may actually work. I am trying Samento myself.

But the science just isn't there. We are all grasping in the dark. But the great thing is that THIS is where the experimentation is taking place. I'd love to create an app that facilitates studies on products like this somehow.

.................................................

(breaking this up for easier reading for many)

[ 06-10-2016, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Robin123 ]

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packypacky
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There are actually quite a lot of results if you search "cat's claw" "immune", etc
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Harmony
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Hello Everyone - this is Harmony - I'm back (from 2011)

hm, unfortunately - but love to see you all still here and working hard to help folks

question on CC: does it or does it not hurt kidneys?

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Keebler
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Q on CC: does it or does it not hurt kidneys?

Not sure why the question, or where you might have gotten the idea that it might under normal circumstances. It's actually helpful to the body to help move out impurities - and the kidneys are key to that.

"under normal circumstances" means that it's the right herb for the person, balanced considering other herbs or substances that might be in an overall formula,

from a top source that is certified to be free of added chemicals, etc.

And, that one is not allergic to it. There has been a case of someone in Germany being allergic to it and their kidneys were affected, though the brand they had has not been made public so the purity of it could have been in question.

Also, the other things they were taking or consuming - whether foods, alcohol, Rx or OTC products - at the time may not have been fully considered.

In the case of the patient in Germany, though, a rare allergy (to something in that bottle) seems to be the determination and that, in turn, became toxic to their kidneys. [ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23597204 ]


See "Interaction" link to follow.

http://www.raintree.com/catsclawtechreport.pdf

Technical Data Report - 38 page pdf

CAT’S CLAW - “Uña de Gato” (Uncaria tomentosa)


Contraindications - page 4

Ethnomedical Information - page 9

. . . helpful with UTIs . . . Used to normalize the body and cleanse the system, for fevers, abscesses, hemorrhages, impurities of the skin, as a blood cleanser. . . .

[much more at document link and other articles posted above]

Also read from other authors who have studied this in depth. And it's best to be guided by a naturopathic physician or someone of similar education & experience if you have specific kidney issues.

Stephen Buhner's books are excellent collection of information that explain aspects in much more depth.

[ 06-11-2016, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Harmony,

If you are looking for something more specifically in support of the kidneys, you might study this, instead:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/30956?#000000

SALVIA miltiorrhiza LINKS

Salvia miltiorrhiza is also called Dan Shen or Danshen
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Keebler
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http://www.itmonline.org/arts/herbdrug.htm

THE INTERACTIONS OF HERBS AND DRUGS

by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D.

Institute for Traditional Medicine
-

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ohioperson22
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Cat's claw was found to stimulate myeloid progenitor cells in mice. This would not increase CD57+ lymphocytes.

When anything remotely talks about bone marrow, I would personally stay far away until it is proven it does not promote the development of multiple myeloma or leukemia.

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Keebler
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Yet, that might be of help:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21771655

J Ethnopharmacol. 2011

Uncaria tomentosa stimulates the proliferation of myeloid progenitor cells.

CONCLUSIONS:

At the tested doses, Uncaria tomentosa had a positive effect on myeloid progenitor number and is promising for use with chemotherapy to minimize the adverse effects of this treatment. . . .
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Keebler
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When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods, because lyme is so very complex & unique, as are possible coinfections:

if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -

- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )

so they really know all they can about the science of lyme . . . how lyme (& other TBD) act and what we can do about that in various ways. Proper ASSESSMENT of not just lyme but coinfectoins is vital. Someone trained by ILADS is best to assess.

Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.

When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.

For those considering complementary support methods / or other avenues entirely:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.

Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:

knowing which methods offer assertive & direct impact, which are only support and which are both. And when to use what, how to combine, & when to step back.

You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods, safety basics . . . .
-

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ohioperson22
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:

Yet, that might be of help:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21771655

J Ethnopharmacol. 2011

Uncaria tomentosa stimulates the proliferation of myeloid progenitor cells.

CONCLUSIONS:

At the tested doses, Uncaria tomentosa had a positive effect on myeloid progenitor number and is promising for use with chemotherapy to minimize the adverse effects of this treatment. . . .

Yet myeloid progenitor cells do not form natural killer cells, as the picture above shows.

I'm still intrigued who was the first person to champion this assertion about cat's claw.

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Keebler
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Not sure what "this assertion" means.

Basically, though, herbs can work via various ways. Some are even "adaptogenic" and can work different ways for different people or different ways at different times for the same person.

This, to my understanding is that - as food which specifically has an affinity for certain organs or function [such as many adaptogenic herbs for adrenals] are nutrients that help the organs function better and do the real work.

For Cat's claw. I'm not sure why the emphasize on NKC but don't have the time to study that in regard to Cat's claw.

Increase of Natural Killer Cells may not need to be a requirement, depending upon the other useful properties of the herb, the other ingredients in the overall formula, etc.

Taylor does a good job outlining the various ways this can be of help, though. And that it is not meant to be the end-all, be-all for all people or all conditions (her book better explains that).

As it's so complex, it's best to have a LL ND or someone with equivalent education in this field.

Personally, the Dharmananda article makes an excellent point about the ecological destruction going after this herb when there are so many other herbs that can be equal to its properties and are not endangered. Still, an ND would know far more about the choices & functions, considering each patient's individual needs.

There is no way any discussion board can "settle" all knowledge questions. But the authors listed are at least some places to learn more for the very intricate world of medicinal plants.

And, herbs just don't feel right to some people. That's okay, too. A person's intuition as to what kinds of paths to pursue vary and there may be good reasons why a person is just drawn to one and not another. Different needs for different people; different needs for different times.
-

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Brussels
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An advice for people wanting to see research published:

Wait sitting - herbs won't come often in research papers, as they can't be patented.

Did you read Buhner's books?

You can contact him directly and ask. He's very open and answers many questions, for free.

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foxy loxy
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For whatever it is worth, my nurse practitioner told me that in her practice she hasn't seen Cat's claw boost natural killer cells... because I asked her about this claim since mine are at freaky low levels!! (supposedly prime candidate for cancer.... creepy)
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Keebler
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There are many ways to support immune function without boosting NKC. The antioxidant & anti-inflammatory properties are major properties that, in turn, help many systems, just for starters.


http://www.rain-tree.com/catsclawtechreport.pdf


Biological Activities for Extracts of Cat’s claw (Uncaria tomentosa) - document pages 17 - 23

In the right hand column for each listing, is a reference number you can find in the section:

Literature Cited - Cat’s claw, starting on page 29
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Harmony
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Thank you so much!

I am sorry I lost track of having asked a question here and did not see it right away.

I did the Buhner protocol for 18 months and was taking a lot of Cat's Claw (the bark not root, to save the plant and allow it to regrow, as Stephen Buhner suggested)

Then I got worried about my kidneys and a kidney site listed Cat's Claw as one of the things not to take with kidney disease

ironically it also listed nettle, and my herbalist told me to take nettle tea to help with the kidney problem

I wonder if this is another political battle between conventional medicine and herbal practitioners, where the conventional people try to scare us away from herbals for financial gain reasons not for our health

given that there are so few studies done, I was looking for some objective information to confirm or deny their claim

I have the Buhner books and have been in touch - wonderful people with a wealth of knowledge they are willing to share and open to any inspection and test - I wish everyone was like that

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

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Keebler
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Harmony,

It is best to do a very wide search of all available literature for a good context. And best to see a naturopathic doctor who has far more detail on the matter. They have the education in naturopathic and herbal medicine.

If one has a diagnosed kidney disease, of course, it's vital to consult with a good ND if one is to consider any herbal supplement. Most MDs do not want renal patients taking any supplement whatsoever - especially on their own. And there are reasons for this.

But they do not consider that NDs have a different set of skills, and full education - and that can serve patients with various diagnoses, while also communicating with one's kidney specialist, etc.

In general,

Buhner's books are certainly good resources and his work excellent, still, if at all possible, it's best to have access to doctor of your own who has this kind of knowledge. Yet, they are few and far between, I know.

None of this is taught at most allopathic medical colleges, however (as the pharmaceutical industry actually designs the courses). When assessing information, get the full picture, consider variables involved.

Be careful about looking for "studies" if they are designed by pharmaceutical methods that want to isolate only one portion of an herb. Herbs are usually best whole. So an education in their properties is going to be more than just a "study" about one isolated part of the plant.

If a site suggests avoiding something, see if you can find the exact reason why. If they refer to an incident that someone had, find the literature on that and try to determine if there were variables such as a counterfeit product, a crook putting things in a product that should not be there, someone downing it with liquor or living on pizza?

Then, move on to the interactions with medications that the person might have not considered or any personal reaction. Was this a isolated instance? Contraindications?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Urtica+dioica%2C+kidneys

PubMed Search

Urtica dioica, kidneys - 13 abstracts

urtica dioica leaf, kidneys - 2

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/stinging-nettle

Scroll down for some Possible Interactions with various Rx

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/important-herbs/stinging-nettle-urtica-dioica.html

. . . Stinging nettle leaf is bitter in taste and cooling in action. It cleanses the blood. Nettle seed nourishes and removes toxins from the kidneys. . . .

From: The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tillotson, et al)

He is a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine; She a doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncturist. The third co-author is a doctor of optometry.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=031228;p=0

STINGING NETTLE LEAF (not root) - Links set

Note the very different properties, and purpose of nettle leaf vs. root. If you are a male and are talking about using the root form, that would be a different search.

And, when reading about nettle, an article should make it clear exactly to which form they refer.

and then there is the SEED:

http://jonathantreasure.com/evidence-research-testimonials-case-history/case-histories/nettle-seed-kidney-function/

Case History: Nettle Seed & Kidney Function

By Jonathan Treasure

About the author: http://jonathantreasure.com/

British educated and uniquely qualified in the field of herbal medicine and cancer, Jonathan trained both in biomedical science and western phytotherapy (herbal medicine).

His clinical practice provides cutting-edge information for people with cancer across the US and internationally. Jonathan holds a Masters in Medical Sciences...

some other good detail can be found with a Google search of "stinging nettles" kidneys -- it just takes some work to sort through to find the good sources.


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/30956?#000000

SALVIA miltiorrhiza LINKS - some detail here specific to improvement of kidney function
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[ 06-15-2016, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Harmony
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Wow, Keebler, that is a lot of information

I will have to digest it in small bites

Thank you so much for your detailed and excellent response!

I wish there was more money for research on Lyme - so we could have an environment where more is known and we could just go to a doc and follow a protocol without all this research, each and every one of us

being the way it is, thank you so much for helping people like me!

--------------------
Persistence, persistence, persistence!!!
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence...
Persistence and determination are omnipotent."
attributed to Calvin Coolidge

Posts: 596 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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