LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Circulatory collapse from herx; what to do?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Circulatory collapse from herx; what to do?
ohioperson22
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 47837

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ohioperson22         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What do you do if a herx results in circulatory collapse, with feeling of impending expiry?

Allicin and Curcumin did that to me.


For all I know I am allergic (but I've taken/eated both before without this).

It's like something not diagnosed is getting killed off, in HUGE amounts, and its releasing so many endotoxins that there is vasodilation, capillary leakage, and who knows what else.

I can only be brought back from a seizure or death with about four benzo pills.


Maybe garlic and curcumin just aren't for me... but whatever they are doing/hitting, I feel like it is out of reach; just too far to even deal with because of the (theoretical) die-off reaction.


When it gets that bad, but you need to keep going, what about a medrol dose pack?

I'm aware of what the feeling is on steroids, but given the information out there about the immune evasion, the various mechanism Dr. M describes by which immune system doesn't get to borrelia, intacellular (totally out of immune system's reach), various morphological forms outside immune capabilities...

...I mean, with all that, really how much WORSE is it with immune suppression for a week with steroids, ESPECIALLY when the bacteria is slow-growing?

Posts: 200 | From Ohio | Registered: Apr 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-
If you've been diagnosed with "circulatory collapse" you likely have a doctor who has given you instructions.

Were steroids part of those instructions?

Are you taking any steroid now, or are you just pondering that?

Might you be describing what it feels like rather than the actual diagnostic term?

Steroids can cause so much damage. There are other ways to help ease a herx. So many other ways.
-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-
About the herbs, did you start with just one capsule a day (of just either the Allicin or the Curcumin)?

If not, it's best to back up. Stop all herbs, eat excellent food and rest. Water. Maybe some dandelion tea, though.

Other liver support is vital with allicin.

As for taking four benzos, that can boomerang, so be careful if you feel agitation to really rest. Take good care of yourself and then reassess.

Do you have a LLMD? Do you have a liver / herx protocol and also adrenal support?
-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-
You ask basically, what could be so bad about taking steroids for a week? "how much WORSE is it with immune suppression for a week?"

It could prove the worst mistake of your life and have long lasting damaging results. It has for many others, myself included (before I knew I had lyme). And one Medrol pack is not about to fix everything. Quite the opposite.

And steroids can hang around in the body for around six months.

In another thread you post today, you are concerned that you might have porphyria. Steroids are absolutely dangerous for anyone with any of the porphyrias. Very much so.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/100984?#000000

Topic: what do STEROIDS actually do to those with lyme? Major, long lasting Risks, long term damage discussed. Links.
-

[ 06-15-2016, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lookup
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 44574

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lookup     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
After calling 911

I, MYSELF, would try

(I'm not telling you to take the remedies for legal reasons)

homeopathic Veratrum album 6c (circulatory

collapse, blue, cold, perspiring)

or

homeopathic Carbo veg 6c (collapsed state, weak,

short of breath, wants to have fresh air or

fanned)

if they fit the case...

Collapse is serious. I don't have to tell you that!

I would repeat the remedy every 5 minutes for 3 doses, if needed.

and I would start spacing out doses to one pellet

every 15 minutes for 2 doses if I needed to.

and with improvement I would space it out even

more if needed. I would probably only need that

remedy for a few hours or so.

Once the doctor is there he can take over my case

if there still was one.

Posts: 764 | From Northwest | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ohioperson22
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 47837

Icon 1 posted      Profile for ohioperson22         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Do I have an LLMD? Yes. Though non-treatment issues will have to wait till my next appointment with him. He is a bit "hands-off" for anything that crosses back into the non-TBD arena (and he is very open about this). Don't know all the reasons.

The feeling is I was standing around and all of a sudden felt something wasn't right, then like clockwork I got a "weightless" feeling in both sides of upper abdomen (kidneys, adrenals?), then heart began to race, as did feelings of panic.

I knew if I didn't take benzos, my HR would go up into the 200s, I'd faint (sadly, my POTS is getting WORSE with treatment), have a seizure, or just flat out die. It was a feeling that the current physiology was not going to support life for much longer.


I have two medrol packs I never used from previous sinus infections. Don't worry, Keebler, I wouldn't use them unless, well-you know--it felt like it was all that was left.


I could handle doxy herxes (barely). I am having a bit tougher time with cephalosporin herxes. But the garlic and curcumin herx took me to the point of benzoing-up, and if not better going to the ER.


I really really wanted/want to make herbs work, because a friend who is a doctor explained to me that long-term antibiotics are hard on the body.

I don't know if my ABX limit will come sooner or later (I was already feeling that way).


And this explains my great, passionate interest in Cat's Claw. Some older ER physician on his old-school website was talking about CNS lyme emergencies in the ER, and he claimed someone took cat's claw and two days later went from paralyzed to back to walking.

I have this fascination with natural remedies. But just when you think something is perfect, you then read that it is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (berberine, this time), or worse, that berberine blocks potassium channels in the heart! This puts it into the category of macrolide antibiotics, or triazole antifungals for arrhythmogenic risk, especially in patients with any one of a number of other risk factors (such as polypharmacy with QT-prolonging drugs, etc)

Posts: 200 | From Ohio | Registered: Apr 2016  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Jordana
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 45305

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jordana     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sounds more like a panic attack. And in any event that's exactly what they would have done for you at the ER.

There are always stories about people going from paralyzed to back to walking with a thousand different substances. I was just reading some guy saying he's recovering with vodka and DMSO.

I didn't think this six months ago but now I think mixing too many herbs with too many abx is a recipe for disaster -- or actually feeling miserable in a new way you had never considered before. The reactions pass but in truth you'll never know exactly what happened.

Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bluelyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 47170

Icon 1 posted      Profile for bluelyme     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tumeric an break up biofilm and maybe have effect on babs ...iv curcumin gave me some of same feelings ..hands got like raisens but inflammation was way down.i got the idea from this vasculitis posted by bea sebert

February 10, 2010 (MMD Newswire)

-- The daughter of a two Romanian physicians, father a cardiologist and mother a neonatologist, remembers being bitten by something in 2001 when Ana Ciobanu was only 6 years old. She developed headaches for the first time in her young life, which continued without help from standard interventions.

In 2008, she was scratched by a cat and developed some skin lesions but because she had no other symptoms a year went by before she was diagnosed with Bartonella henselae, the cat-scratch disease.

In April 2009, she was scratched by and owl and became so ill she was completely bed-ridden - it was then that she was also diagnosed with Rickettssia conori, Babesia and then Lyme.

She began to walk again after one month of IV antibiotics but progress was slow. She began receiving hyperbaric oxygen treatments and experienced tremendous improvements and resolution of her headaches after just 20 treatments.

She was being treated at the Hyperbaric and Diving Medicine Centre Constantza, Romania but she developed such severe Lyme vasculitis (see attached article) that she went into full circulatory collapse (no blood pressure).

It was then that Dr. Ciobanu contacted Lyme and hyperbaric oxygen experts in the USA for help. Dr. Stoller, Medical Director of the San Francisco Institute for Hyperbaric Medicine as well as the Hyperbaric Medical Center of New Mexico, immediately recommended that Ana be placed on therapeutic doses of Curcumin (the healing component in the spice turmeric).

Both Dr. Stoller and his nurse in San Francisco, Gayle Link, RN (an expert in treating Lyme in her own right) recommended that Ana resume hyperbaric oxygen at a lower pressure than she had been getting treated and last week a trial treatment went well. Ana will resume her treatments on February 12th.

The Curcumin rapidly brought down the high levels of inflammatory biomarkers (cytokines) and Ana made a full recovery

The San Francisco Institute for Hyperbaric Medicine is the only hyperbaric treatment facility in San Francisco treating Lyme disease, just as The Hyperbaric Medical Center of New Mexico is the only facility treating Lyme in New Mexico.

Lyme disease is an international problem and calls for international cooperation.

Ana's mother can be reached at [email protected]

The first two movies made on Dark-field Microscopy showing the Lyme infection before hyperbaric oxygen therapy can be obtained at: http://dl.transfer.ro/Transfer_ro-26Jan-3a44b7dfc01014.zip

Contact:

Gayle Link RN, Director of Nursing
San Francisco Institute for Hyperbaric Medicine
www.sfhbo.com
tel 415-513-5813
cell 415-269-1498
185 Berry Street
Suite 4801
San Francisco, California 94107

--------------------
Blue

Posts: 1538 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kms1990
Member
Member # 41700

Icon 1 posted      Profile for kms1990     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you have been diagnosed with circulatory collapse during treatment I would urge your doctor to admit you and go through treatment supervised.
Posts: 70 | From New Jersey | Registered: Aug 2013  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lookup
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 44574

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lookup     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It would be interesting to know what your blood pressure was.

In pondering your case, I looked to see if the

allicin and curcumin could drop blood pressure

(which it can)

http://www.naturalnews.com/038567_blood_pressure_natural_remedies_foods.html

and that maybe this was a cortisol response

to save you from a bottomed out blood pressure.

But if it was a bottomed out blood pressure

(cardiovascular collapse)then

taking benzos would bottom you out even more

by slowing the heart rate to the point of very

little perfusion.


A sudden fight or flight cortisol hormone dump

(this mechanism is seen in the body trying to

save itself from a threat)in reaction

to the combination of herbs (that normally didn't

bother you but, for a myriad of reasons, did

this time) curcumin and allicin

pushed the heart rate up and that is why benzos

helped.

Just my 2 cents from an armchair....

---------------------------------------------

A bit off subject to explain a bit about

homeopathy...when choosing a remedy we look at the

state of the person. For instance, Carbo veg could

help a person revive if they fainted from

kneeling at prayer in a hot church or it could

help revive a bloated dog who got food poisoning

from some rotten meat.

It is the STATE that is the guide for remedy

choice not necessarily what caused the

state. It's a mind bender, I know.

Posts: 764 | From Northwest | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.