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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Question about lithium orotate

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Author Topic: Question about lithium orotate
tommyboy
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I have to do something about my depression and anxiety. Spend all day worrying about everything. Can't function.

I am really scared of antidepressants. Lithium orotate sounds promising but does it interact with anything? Or is it ok since it's natural?

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Lymetoo
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I tried it and it made me swell up. I don't think my kidneys liked it.

I would check online for interactions. I had talked to my doctor about it and he said OK.

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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tommyboy
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I have done online drug interactions check but the sites only come up with the pharmaceutical lithium.

I wonder if I could rely on that?

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Lymetoo
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Maybe ... Did you read several articles on lithium orotate to see if any mention is made of drug interactions?

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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norcal
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Lithium orotate for me was not that effective for either sleep or depression/ anxiety.
How about trying some of the other herbal things?
Valerian root, st johns wort, or if your into it and not too challenged,cannabis.
For me while I was in the worst part of treatment early on cannabis was not even on my radar I was so compromised.
I eventually was well enough that it was a blessing during the last years.
Good luck and keep checking back,let everyone know if you need anything.

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bluelyme
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,holy basil and l dopa ,niacinmide and lith orate st johns wart ,phenylalanine and zanax, if i could what norcal said

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Blue

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Keebler
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phenylalaline can be very dangerous for those with lyme & anxiety as it's so neuro-excitatory.

Check all supplements and assess diet (and anything that comes into our bodies for:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/113775?#000000

Topic: Amino Acid Information Link

See post: Caution: Aspartate; Glutamine; and Phenylalanine (3 excitatory amino acids that can be wrong for us when added as supplements, beyond a normal dietary level)

Seaweed has its own natural MSG and can be very excitatory
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Keebler
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Q: "pharmaceutical lithium. I wonder if I could rely on that? "

No. Absolutely not at all. As to why not, they all explain it so much better than I can:


Lithium Orotate featured in this 2-part article by Jonathan V. Wright, MD:

http://tahomaclinic.com/2010/05/lithium-the-misunderstood-mineral-part-1/

Lithium – The Misunderstood Mineral - Part 1


http://tahomaclinic.com/2010/06/lithium-the-misunderstood-mineral-part-2/

Part 2


http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/is-lithium-orotate-good-or-bad-for-you/

Is Lithium Orotate Good or Bad For You?

By by Dr. Edward Group DC - April 2014


http://www.onlineholistichealth.com/lithium-orotate-misleading-research/

Why Lithium Orotate is Superior and SAFER than Lithium Carbonate

Dr Michelle Kmiec - Oct 22, 2014

Article & audio link (scroll all the way down)


http://www.treatlyme.net/treat-lyme-book/lithium-orotate-5mg/

An LLMD's thoughts on Lithium Orotate in chronic Lyme Disease - April 2015

In chronic Lyme Disease Lithium Orotate 5mg

improves thinking, protects the brain from toxins, elevates mood, and decreases anxiety and nervous system irritability. . . .
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[ 07-17-2016, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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http://www.jpands.org/vol20no4/marshall.pdf

LITHIUM AS A NUTRIENT

Timothy M. Marshall, Ph.D.

Six-page pdf

Excerpts:

. . . We have known for years that animals need small amounts of lithium . . . .

. . . It appears that when people have deficient lithium intakes they experience poorer moods and are more easily agitated and reactive, [Schrauzer] . . . .

. . . Lithium is also important for enhancing transport of two other critically important brain nutrients, folate and vitamin B12, into cells. The transport of these factors is inhibited in lithium deficiency and can be restored by lithium supplementation. [Schrauzer] . . .

Lithium Induces Stem Cell Production

Mechanism of Neuroprotective Effects

Lithium Effects on Neural Tissue and Blood

Anti-Inflammatory Activity

Alzheimer Disease

Antioxidant

Lithium and Mercury Toxicity

Nutritional Forms of Lithium

. . . The two most common, low-dose forms of lithium that are readily available over the counter (OTC) are the aspartate and orotate forms. . . .

. . . The safety of low-dose lithium is comparable to low-dose forms of other nutrients such as zinc. In fact, lithium has a much wider therapeutic and biologically compatible (nontoxic) window than zinc. . . .

[Full article at link above. The author is a holistic neurospecialist/pharmacologist and professor of chemistry and pharmacology in Tucson, Ariz.]
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[ 07-17-2016, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Why the OROTATE and not the aspartate form:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/316987-lithium-aspartate-vs-lithium-orotate/

Lithium ASPARTATE Vs. Lithium OROTATE

By Ann Jones - Apr 26, 2015 - Livestrong

Excerpt:

. . . Lithium Salt Binders

Lithium requires a binder, or transporter, to make it accessible to the body. It cannot be absorbed without this binder.

Eskalith and Lithobid, the formulations of lithium prescribed to bipolar patients, use carbonate as a transporter. Carbonate is a formulation of carbon and oxygen.

Orotate is a salt derived from orotic acid frequently used as a binder for mineral supplements.

Aspartate comes from aspartic acid, an amino acid.

Lithium aspartate and lithium orotate are available over-the-counter and contain lower dosages of lithium than lithium carbonate, which must be prescribed by a doctor.

Most proponents of low-dose lithium therapy such as Dr. Jonathan Wright recommend them equally.

*** However, aspartate is thought to be an excitotoxin, ***

a substance that binds to nerve cell receptors and may cause damaging over-stimulation.

Marlina E. Borkwood, MSc states that excitotoxins can cause headaches, brain edema, eye inflammation, vascular system and central nervous system problems in sensitive individuals.

Those who want to try low-dose lithium therapy and have experienced sensitivity to another excitotoxin, monosodium glutamate -- a food additive commonly known as MSG -- may wish to stick with lithium orotate. . . .

[Full article at link above.]


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/113775?#000000

Topic: Amino Acid Information Link

See post: Caution: Aspartate; Glutamine; and Phenylalanine (3 excitatory amino acids that can be wrong for us - even neuro-toxic - when added as supplements, beyond a normal dietary level)
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[ 07-17-2016, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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After reading all the articles, and others you may find,

in looking for an orotate form with minimal "other ingredients" here's one to get you started with your consideration list to then present to your LLMD for discussion.

http://www.tahomadispensary.com/store/4582%2125/Lith-Oro%26%23x2122%3B+5mg++100+capsules

Lith-Oro™ 5mg

Other ingredients: Microcrystalline cellulose, gelatin capsule
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[ 07-17-2016, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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Though not at all about lyme, this is one of the best reference resources on my bookshelf that has wonderful chapters, many graciously available through their website.

While lithium is a mineral, if you consider any herb, you might find this very helpful to search. As well, you can search conditions, body organs, etc.:

Home: http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/

The ONE EARTH HERBAL SOURCEBOOK (Tillotson, et al)

He is a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine; She a doctor of Oriental Medicine and Acupuncturist. The third co-author is a doctor of optometry.

http://oneearthherbs.squarespace.com/display/Search?searchQuery=depression&moduleId=1405778

Search of the book / site for "Depression"
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Keebler
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GLUTEN can cause so many problems with brain function.

Going gluten free really helped my mood. Also helped ease inflammation & pain. I think all that is connected.

Depression can also be from adrenal dysfunction, and that nearly always goes with lyme.

Same for liver stress, it causes depression. So, when the liver is getting the nutrients it needs, depression is often lifted. I think it would be impossible for anyone with liver stress to not be depressed, actually.

An overwhelmed liver and stressed adrenals are also very likely to result in anxiety.

Ultimately, lyme and other chronic stealth infections are vital to address the toxicities that are stressing the liver and adrenals. While treating:


http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/89790

Topic: NATURAL SLEEP & ADRENAL SUPPORT


http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too.
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lymenotlite
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Lithium orotate really helped calm down my neuro lyme brain. The first stuff I bought had magnesium stearate and other ingredients which did not agree with my digestive tract. After that, I bought the 5 mg lithium orotate from Pure Encapsulations and that worked well for me.
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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Keebler:
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phenylalaline can be very dangerous for those with lyme & anxiety as it's so neuro-excitatory.


-

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Why the warning on this for lithium orotate?

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Keebler
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The post just before my post on that suggested phenylalaline for depression as something else one might consider. I was just responding in line to that.

And, as it turns, out, reposted the same neuro-excitatory links set regarding Lithium Aspartate because the aspartate is also neuro-excitatory and that detail in with the same links set as the phenylalaline.

Many articles say either lithium orotate or aspartate are sort of interchangeable. But, not for those with neurological conditions. When considering purchase / use, this is key detail.
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tommyboy
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While reading through reviews on amazon I found one person who said they have lyme and they tried the lithium for three days and it really messed them up mentally. They felt it had lasting negative impact on their mental stability.

How long would it take to clear your system if it reacts badly I wonder?

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Keebler
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tommyboy, did that say what kind of lithium, dose? If you have that link I'll look for any variables in their post. The link with just the name of the poster will work.

If it does not work out (as there is nothing that is excellent for every person), within a few days, all should return to one's "normal"

When I tried it a very long time ago, it made me too sleepy. But I do not recall the dose or even the brand. But I do recall that within a couple days off it, I was back to my square one.

There is a liquid l. orotate by Pure Encapsulations where one could start with just one drop. I'm just put off by the "natural flavors" they add to that as those can be excitatory.
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me
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Tommyboy, So sorry you are going through this. Big hugs.

Everyone responds differently to pharmaceutical drugs and herbal remedies. What may work for one person may not work for another person. Some natural herbs can be just as strong as some pharmaceuticals, and vice versa.

Have you discussed this depression and options with your doctor? Also, seeing a Lyme literate psychiatrist could be beneficial to weigh the pros and cons of any decision.

[group hug]

--------------------
Just sharing my experiences, opinions, and what I've read and learned. Not medical advice.

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Keebler
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69 results for "lithium orotate" at Amazon. In searching just the first four (and thanks to the "key word" search feature within reviews, I found only these. Not about to search all 70, though. So if you want to post the link or brand for the review in question, that would help.

Also then helpful to search a poster's history to get a sense of how "real" they are.

www.amazon.com/Weyland-Lithium-Orotate-Elemental-Vegetarian/product-reviews/B00PB4II68/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewopt_kywd?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&pageNumber=1&filterByKeyw ord=lyme

Weyland: Lithium Orotate - 5mg of Elemental Lithium per Vegetarian Capsule

Two reviews mention lyme:

5 stares By Kimreynolds5150 on May 25, 2016

So, I give five stars because I have no reason to rate it any less than that. . . .

I take the product to offset the effects of inflammation and long-term pain management due to an undiagnosed case of Lyme disease (8 years of damage before they identified the root cause).

I live a very healthy lifestyle, and don't suffer from depression, so I can't speak to its effect for that purpose.

However, the chronic pain and medicine tend to leave you "flat" and a little mentally dull. It took about three weeks taking 5mg daily before I could definitively say I felt the subtle difference in my overall sense of energy and well-being. . . .

5 stars By Joe Engineer on November 3, 2015

Lithium Orotate was recommended as a supplement by my naturopath, not for mood stability but for overall wellness and to help my body with B vitamin absorption and to help combat Chronic Lyme Disease. . . .
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tommyboy
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Keebler, I read your links. thank you. I still don't know if it interacts with anything.

I won't see my llmd for another month and can't get them on the phone etc. otherwise.

This is the review I found on amazon. I went with this brand because my local health store has only this in stock now and I was going to run out and buy it.

I am so desperate for relief. I wake up everyday just to want to sleep and not wake up. I want out of this nightmare so bad.

Anyway here is the link https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-Orotate-5mg-Kal-VCaps/product-reviews/B009B55622/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_hist_1?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=1

THe review is by Kris and it is rated 1 star

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Keebler
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Thanks for the link. The only thing that stands out for me is that, apparently, kris took more than 5 mg a day since stating: " . . . took more that night..."

You might not want to buy this right away. I find it helps to read the various articles and think about it - and other options - for a couple days.

I do recall it making me very tired but don't recall any anxiety with it. I was disappointed that I did not have the good effects that others did but, then, I had many variables in the mix.

I have to stop yet hope you will weigh all options and variables.

If you do start it, of course very low dose, only once a day until you see how you do. If there is some way to divide that dose, that would be good but that will take a little homework. You could call KAL tomorrow.

Take is with food, as that's the best way to start any nutrient supplement for a variety of reasons. Have good food on hand as, so often, if some supplement is not quite right, a good meal can often bring us back into balance.

Do not plan to drive that day or the next (maybe). Just in case you feel sleepy.

Still, after reading all the articles if you feel this might help, good luck. But I wish you could wait until talking to your LLMD about it.

If you are not gluten free, that could be one way to be proactive now and within a week or two you might have some good changes to mood from that.

Take care.
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tommyboy
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Thanks Keebler I will update everyone if I try the lithium. I need to try going gluten-free any way but it's been hard.
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Keebler
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Can we make it easier for you?

Is there a particular food you enjoy and want the best GF ways to get that same taste / texture? You might start a different thread for that.

MAGNESIUM. Also remember that it's a top depression / anxiety helper.

Be sure you are getting enough good cards, good fats and clean proteins. Meat / fish really help me.

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Keebler
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You could still be reacting to the epinephrine on May 11 when you got an ant bite / hives.

That can really toss anxiety around like tornado and the resultant toll on adrenals can't help but cause depression.

If you have good adrenal support, that might help but avoid Rhodiola as it's just too energizing for someone in a tender place.
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sillia
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I'm taking tiny doses of lithium orotate, about every three days, as more causes detox reaction somewhat like a herx. I open the capsule and remove a small amount with a toothpick. Gradually I will increase the frequency and amount as my system begins to tolerate it.

It seems that lithium is very important esp. for people with lyme. I am a few months into Dr. Yasko's methylation program and balancing lithium is an important part of this. She says that there is an association of Lyme and low lithium--in other words most lyme patients test low in lithium.

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Lymetoo
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OH, now I see it, Keebler. I have to quit speed-reading. [Wink]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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tommyboy
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Of course rhodiola is the only adrenal support I have on hand.

The article I read said lithium chelated a certain metal so it does seem like it could make you feel worse.

Sillia what methylation issue are you working on? Do you get any benefits/results from the lithium at that dose?

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Keebler
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Since you speak about anxiety, I am very hesitant to suggest rhodiola, alone. Its energizing nature is not right for your body at this time and could make anxiety worse.

Cordyceps or Ashwagandha - Holy Basil (Tulsi) would be better. Rhodiola, in small amounts in a fuller formula might be okay but, even then, it's best to avoid that until the more basic and gentle supports are well in place.
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Marnie
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For anxiety this really helps:

https://www.amazon.com/Natural-Factors-Stress-Relax-Suntheanine-L-Theanine/dp/B00B95I5GQ/ref=sr_1_1_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1468870606&sr=1-1&keywords=Natural+Factors+Suntheanine

Sometimes the same "drug"/supplement from a different company works differently. The above, we found, is very helpful.

Tastes great. Chewable tablets.

Effect lasts for several hours.

Rx alternative = Ativan - start with lowest doses possible (0.5mg). It is safer than Xanax. It is very effective.

Depression - Rx. Celexa is good - start with lowest doses. Can cause weight gain in some people, but when cortisol is high and one is crying daily (medically induced Cushing's), it helps a lot.

Yes, lithium is VERY neuro protective. Very hard to balance and can mess up the thyroid, etc. Must be closely monitored!!! We need very little of that mineral.

I've written this many times...the highest doses of Prozac allowed, I believe, prevented my sis from "neuro" lyme.

Bb needs tryptophan et al. By keeping serotonin higher longer, it seems to prevent serotonin from being broken down and providing nutrients Bb can use.

There is no blood brain barrier. Pathogen and toxins can travel via the lymph system which extends into the brain (2015 research).

Prozac did not help prevent massive joint destruction though.


*******

Keebler...threonine (watch the spelling) helps us make mucin 2 which ***protects the bowel lining***

- and candida (normally in our bowels) from going systemic and releasing a LOT of toxins?

We can't make threonine...have to get it from foods.

DHA (omega 3) in ***very high doses*** (GNC's) lowers threonine (NOT GOOD - my son). He does much better on ***high EPA to reduce inflammation.***

OmegaBrite - wonderful (very high EPA). Do NOT have to take it EVERY day...Contains some DHA and a tad of Vitamin E to prevent oxidation of the EPA and DHA.

It is recommended for kids with ADHD - glutamate "junkies"...;-) Accelerator to the floor.

Only avail. over the internet.

A lot of DHA triggering AKT/PKB does this:

serine -> phosphoserine and

threonine -> phosphotyrosine. (see the amino acid switch?)

DHA activates AKT/PKB...Protein phosphate transfer onto an amino acid. K = kinase = phosphate transfer.

In autistic kids (my son) PTEN (several mutations common), a tumor suppressor, inhibits the above (AKT.PKB).

Phosphates attach to threonine...in MS, preference is to attach to threonine in HHV-6 (virus in all of us) rather than threonine in MBP (myelin basic protein).

They have a 7 identical amino acid sequence!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_herpesvirus_6

Scroll way down to myelin basic protein (it is in blue).

Our kinases act on an HHV-6 protein due to a shared sequence of seven amino acids

(MBP92–104=IVTPRTPPPSQGK;

U241–13=MDPPRTPPPSYSE).

As a result, essential post-translational modifications may not be occurring for MBPs in individuals with active HHV-6 infections.

See the same PRTPPPS - same 7 letter sequence?

Now scroll up to U24 and see how it impacts our immune function.

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sillia
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quote:
Sillia what methylation issue are you working on? Do you get any benefits/results from the lithium at that dose?
I investigated the methylation because I thought it would help with my horrendous herx/detox problems. I discovered I have 14 mutations (of the 30 they look at) and that these may explain a lot of issues, in terms of why I can't get better after 6 years of treatment.

I am enthusiastic about the program but can't yet report on concrete improvements, it's a bit too soon. As far as the small dose of lithium, no, I don't observe changes due to that, but it is only a slow ramp up to the dose I will need. From what I am reading, getting the lithium in balance should help me with a lot of things, including metabolism. Lithium makes it possible to absorb B12 for example.

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sammy
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If you are still interested. After searching a few sites, they listed " Lithium" then orotate, for drug interactions. Here are a few from RX list.com:

It might make thyroid disorder worse.
Can be hard on the kidneys & heart
Should stop before surgery, changes serotonin levels
Interacts with NSAIDS.
Interacts with caffeine.
Antidepressants.
Robatussin- DM
Heart medications
Seizure meds
Muscle relaxants
Demerol
Ultram
Water pills

Of course, interactions will also vary by how much you take too.

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Rumigirl
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If you are feeling as bad as you say you are (why would you say it otherwise?), I would NOT be afraid to take an antidepressant! It is far better to do so than to suffer horribly. The suffering we go through is

bad enough, without making it worse by trying to avoid a med for it.Many, many Lyme patients need to do this to get through this mess.

The lithium orotate, is a trace mineral that we need. I would suggest taking it before bed, as it can make you sleepy/relaxed. If you take a lot before you're used to it, in my experience, you may

feel a little dopey the next morning. I'm "the princess and the pea" in terms of not detoxing well, and feeling symptoms before I'm used to things.

The l-theanine that Marnie was suggesting is very good for anxiety. If 1 capsule/tablet isn't enough, you can take more---sublingually gets absorbed fastest. You can't take too much of it really.

Sam-e can help with depression, but might make anxiety worse (maybe, maybe not).

Please, do yourself a favor and see a LL psychiatrist, if possible, or a regular one, if not. It's not good to go on suffering so much! What's unavoidable is bad enough!

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Catgirl
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quote:
Originally posted by sillia:

It seems that lithium is very important esp. for people with lyme. I am a few months into Dr. Yasko's methylation program and balancing lithium is an important part of this. She says that there is an association of Lyme and low lithium--in other words most lyme patients test low in lithium.

Fascinating!

This whole thread is good. Interesting how too much can affect thyroid (Marnie's post). Also interesting is how lithium makes it possible to absorb B-12 (sillia's post). It sounds like minute amounts can help.

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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tulips
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For me Cat's Claw took care of anxiety and NAC took care of depression.
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Brussels
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkB1BWJU900

Look at 45 minutes from this physicist lecture.

He says we can produce a plasma-imprinted frequency of lithium that acts in the body, exactly like the supplement lithium does, helping depression, bipolar diseases, WITHOUT any side effects.

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Catgirl
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It also helps encourage longevity:

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natural-health/7-benefits-lithium/

--------------------
--Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together).

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