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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » long term antibiotics - scientific evidence?

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Author Topic: long term antibiotics - scientific evidence?
Semia
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hi all,

I am reaching out in hopes someone can help me find a science based research article supporting the fact that long term abx therapy can and does help treat chronic lyme disease. I am in

school and my professor is arguing that long term abx will never work. I am attempting to write my report going against her beliefs bc although abx was not the answer for me personally, I

know it has helped so many! so can anyone help provide me with a link to an accredited science article stating that long term abx oral or iv DOES help chronic lyme? It would be so very helpful ! thank you !

Posts: 123 | From New jersey | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bluelyme
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Burrascano guidlines ..,sapi and alan macdonald ,tom grier .i would contact ilads ...northwestern ,new haven and now stanford are doing research. ...please let us know what you find ...

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Blue

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MichaelTampa
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I expect others will chime in with exactly what you are asking for ... but I can't help but chime in with the two cents I have ...

I just hate the way so many are drawn into this "scientific research" nonsense, that some idea of grouping people and measuring results allows a conclusion that is much more reliable than other methods of learning things.

Cure Unknown tells the story of a child who was very sick and went on and off abx a few times, with dramatic changes in health and progress of disease. On abx, good; off abx, bad, and eventually death. The learning one gets from this is 1000 times or more valuable then any hokey study. The evidence is clear from that one case that abx can help such situations dx as lyme.

Meanwhile, some research studies will select people, and round away real people with real results, and then the headline will somehow say "abx doesn't work", when it really means they managed to arrange things so that the results in total for different groups were not that different.

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steve1906
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I have always said> How does one know that using long term abx, (1-year 5-years 10 years, or longer) got them better?

If they didn't take any abx would they have still gotten better in time?

I know a lot of people that don't believe in long term, including myself, and a lot of them have no symptoms anymore.

Everyone is different, and everyone has an opinion on this matter.

Steve

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Everything I say is just my opinion!

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me
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"Cure unknown" and "why can't I get better" by dr. H. And humans on here.

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Just sharing my experiences, opinions, and what I've read and learned. Not medical advice.

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Tincup
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It might be easier to prove short-term antibiotics fail to cure Lyme (or as an intro to your paper?)- in other words, prove persistence.

Here are 273 articles supporting persistence. Nice list.

https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/chronic-lyme-disease/persistence-articles--bibliography

If you'd like to check out the few studies we have (the pigs get all the funding) to show chronic Lyme is improved with antibiotics you can start here...

Go to Pub Med and type in two words- Cameron Lyme

You'll pull up 20 abstracts. Studies # 3-20 will give you some support.

Good luck!

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Tincup
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Here is a good paper by Dr. C that may help.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2876246/

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Tincup
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You may want to cite legal cases like this one where a patient sued Empire BC/BS for $800 million for damage caused when antibiotics for more than 30 days were denied and the patient became disabled.

https://sites.google.com/site/marylandlyme/legal-cases/jessica-parente-vs-empire-bc-bs-dr-orens

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Tincup
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Here are some more recent articles showing the standard meds used for treating Lyme do not eradicate persisters and the meds used for persisters won't kill active spirochetes, and the right combo is required to kill all forms.

A Drug Combination Screen Identifies Drugs Active against Amoxicillin-Induced Round Bodies of In Vitro Borrelia burgdorferi Persisters from an FDA Drug Library.
Feng J, Shi W, Zhang S, Sullivan D, Auwaerter PG, Zhang Y.
Front Microbiol. 2016 May 23;7:743. doi: 10.3389/fmicb.2016.00743.
PMID: 27242757 Free PMC Article

Eradication of Biofilm-Like Microcolony Structures of Borrelia burgdorferi by Daunomycin and Daptomycin but not Mitomycin C in Combination with Doxycycline and Cefuroxime.
Feng J, Weitner M, Shi W, Zhang S, Zhang Y.
Front Microbiol. 2016 Feb 10;7:62. doi: 10.3389/fmicb.2016.00062.
PMID: 26903956 Free PMC Article


Persister mechanisms in Borrelia burgdorferi: implications for improved intervention.
Feng J, Shi W, Zhang S, Zhang Y.
Emerg Microbes Infect. 2015 Aug;4(8):e51. doi: 10.1038/emi.2015.51. No abstract available. Erratum in: Emerg Microbes Infect. 2015;4:e56.
PMID: 26421273 Free PMC Article


Identification of novel activity against Borrelia burgdorferi persisters using an FDA approved drug library.
Feng J, Wang T, Shi W, Zhang S, Sullivan D, Auwaerter PG, Zhang Y.
Emerg Microbes Infect. 2014 Jul;3(7):e49. doi: 10.1038/emi.2014.53.
PMID: 26038747 Free PMC Article


Drug combinations against Borrelia burgdorferi persisters in vitro: eradication achieved by using daptomycin, cefoperazone and doxycycline.
Feng J, Auwaerter PG, Zhang Y.
PLoS One. 2015 Mar 25;10(3):e0117207. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0117207.
PMID: 25806811 Free PMC Article


Identification of Additional Anti-Persister Activity against Borrelia burgdorferi from an FDA Drug Library.
Feng J, Weitner M, Shi W, Zhang S, Sullivan D, Zhang Y.
Antibiotics (Basel). 2015 Sep 16;4(3):397-410. doi: 10.3390/antibiotics4030397.
PMID: 27025631 Free PMC Article


Identification of new compounds with high activity against stationary phase Borrelia burgdorferi from the NCI compound collection.
Feng J, Shi W, Zhang S, Zhang Y.
Emerg Microbes Infect. 2015 Jun 3;4:e31. doi: 10.1038/emi.2015.31.
PMID: 26954881


An optimized SYBR Green I/PI assay for rapid viability assessment and antibiotic susceptibility testing for Borrelia burgdorferi.
Feng J, Wang T, Zhang S, Shi W, Zhang Y.
PLoS One. 2014 Nov 3;9(11):e111809. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0111809.
PMID: 25365247 Free PMC Article

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madisongrrl
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There are 400 notes and references in Cure Unknown. Site all the persister studies - especially the monkey studies from Tulane. Also, you need to look at the 3-4 studies that "prove" long term antibiotics don't work. There are many shortcomings and limitations with these studies. One of the main studies was found to be statistically under powered when it was analyzed years later.
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Brussels
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Tincup, there are many papers proving infection is indeed persistent.

But what is the proof that long term abx will then kill the persistent strains ?

What if they are not making infections even MORE persistent?


How many years have many of you guys been on abx, and still not cured?

I guess, the decision to keep on abx or not, is individual.

Abx were DESIGNED to be used short term. No researcher thought to test it for 5 years to see what happens.


These are NOT drugs designed to be used for 1, 2, 10 years as many lyme patients are doing.

It takes just 20 days or so on IMMENSE amounts of abx for some pathogens to create TOTAL IMMUNITY to an abx.

For lack of alternative, and when abx can save lives, why not using them? But 5, 10 years with the justification lyme is persistent?


So is candida! Extremely persistent.

Why is abx the only solution? I don't see the logic.

When you read the anecdotal accounts here in lymenet of the people who got better, few are the ones who stick basically to abx only.

Abx is just one more tool to fight chronic lyme. It is not a religion. Abx is not the only thing that fights chronic lyme.

In my opinion, it is even a bit the opposite:

abx does not exactly help your body's immunity because it helps destroying it to one side (as it destroys good bacteria that fight pathogens)...

.... while it helps you a bit (while it kills part of pathogens and makes the immune system a bit stronger).

Abx is unfortunately a knife that cuts twice: it helps on one side, and it damages at the same time.

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Judie
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Just from another angle, there are papers about long-term antibiotics curing tuberculosis. I've seen this used as an reason for long-term antibiotics and Lyme.

If you google "long-term antibiotics tuberculosis" lots of science papers comes up.

"long-term antibiotics tuberculosis lyme" also came up with some pros and cons too.

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Tincup
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Good point Judie!

Brussels said.. "These are NOT drugs designed to be used for 1, 2, 10 years as many lyme patients are doing."

Yes, and it is a shame, like with many other known diseases and conditions, that we don't have a sure-fired cure yet. We can only do what we can do until the science catches up.

Most of us can't wait for a cure or way to improve to come to us. It's basically treat or suffer and die.

Brussels said.. "Abx is unfortunately a knife that cuts twice: it helps on one side, and it damages at the same time."

Very true. Like cancer treatments it can help some and not help others and it can make most people miserable when trying.

I do so wish things were better for all.

As for antibiotics causing immunity problems when taken for X number of days... good news is even the IDSA states Lyme disease has never been found to have that associated problem.

Brussels asked... "But what is the proof that long term abx will then kill the persistent strains ?"

They are working on that as we speak- FINALLY. They are ruling in/out what drugs are most effective for killing or eliminating each "stage" of the spirochetes life.

Soon what is being tested in the labs will be tested on animals, then hopefully humans. Right now all we have is trial and error with all of us being used as guinea pigs.

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bluelyme
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Here is one newer one saying pulsing did not work for biofilmies after dap ect..
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fmicb.2016.01744/abstract

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Blue

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Winter Park
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I feel like we are in the Sulfa drug stage fighting Lyme with antibiotics that are not very effective after the initial infection. Sulfa drugs came before penicillin and were better than nothing but not nearly as potent.

So now here we are with chronic Lyme disease that CAN be beat with YEARS of antibiotic treatment if a combination is used while eating a very specific diet and not overexerting oneself. All studies I've read that say long term treatment failed used only one antibiotic at a time. It seems that not only are IV antibiotics usually not more effective, but are less effective than the current oral antibiotics. There has never been a great or even good antibiotic that kills spirochetes once a disease becomes chronic. This of course is my experience but I find it hard to believe a unique one.

It helps to anticipate the swings in inflammation and fatigue and not get discouraged which is a YUGE understatement. Keeping an eye on the overall long term progress while taking breaks in the diet with junk food comas helps recharge my willpower.

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AndyR
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Here is one that I read recently which studies the effects of long term pulsing of antibiotics against lyme disease. It concludes that pulsing may be more effective. This supports the idea that long term antibiotics can be effective.

Article on the study: http://www.northeastern.edu/news/2015/06/researchers-discovery-may-explain-difficulty-in-treating-lyme-disease/

The actual study: http://aac.asm.org/content/early/2015/05/20/AAC.00864-15.abstract

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Brussels
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http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs194/en/

Not only lyme is 'resistant' to treatments, but also other more common infections.

The more antibiotics are being used, the harder it's getting, specially for people with low immunity.


I thought once I was going to die from TB. It attacked my joints, they opened, I EVEN tried a couple of abx, but of course, they DIDN'T WORK!


Tuberculosis needed about 5 different abx (and still no guaranty of winning) the time I got ill, years ago, I read.


It does look similar with the lyme problem, where people need loads of combination for success (no guaranty either).


I got rid of TB with Tuberculosis nosode from the BCG vaccine. I suspect my strain of TB got activated from the BCG vaccine I took as a child.

No other TB nosode worked, only that BCG vaccine strain. TB got activated during active lyme, due to low immunity.


ABX didn't cure my lyme, nor my daughter's.

Other treatments did the job that abx couldn't.


Same as TB: abx was not the solution. It only touched the problem, but I wasn't cured at all.

It was only when I added the nosodes that TB stopped. My joints were so bad that I could see the cartilage as it opened, with the infection. Extremely painful.


ABX is just one tool, a minor tool, in my opinion. It is a minor tool for CHRONIC problems (but still a good tool for some acute problems,if you do not have a resistant super bug strain) ...

... and a bad tool for RESISTANT strains of pathogens.

I don't say you don't have to get treated. It's a shame that we don't get right treatments we deserve.

What I say, is that abx is not the ONLY solution for persistent, chronic, resistant infections. there are other solutions.

Go to success stories, and you get an idea of what people have done.

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