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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » 5 year old with co-infetions abx or herbal

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Author Topic: 5 year old with co-infetions abx or herbal
naturegirl
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Hi, we just saw our llmd and are suppose to stack 5 different antibiotics. I am concerned with giving that many antibiotics to my 5 year old, especially after reading the side effects. I am just wondering if anyone has stacked this many with a small child with success. Or anyone who has had success with the herbal route. Co-infections are babesia and bartonella. Thanks.
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Brussels
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My daughter got infected at age 2 and by 5, she was healed. She had ALL coifections our lyme doctor could test.

We used antibiotics just once, at age 2, and I regretted, because she had tummy and digestion problems for many months. And she could only take one antibiotic then, too young, so her lyme progressed anyway.

If I had to repeat that again, I wouldn't have started with antibiotics. The problem to use herbs and other treatments, is that you need time to learn about them, and they work only in conjunction with many things...

But I have no doubt they are less harmful than drugs. my daughter had not taken antibiotics anymore, and she's 13 today.

We used many other things though.

Can't your find anyone doing ART (energy testing), herbals, etc?

I hope your son does not have any attention deficit disorder, or similar, because then he must be suffering from gut problems, allergies, brain problems (viruses), and destroying his gut further won't improve the brain / behavioral symptoms... In my opinion.

It takes MUCH more time to heal a dammaged gut than to heal from lyme, in my own experience.

Both my daughter and I are lyme free for 8 years, but we are still treating allergy problems, problems of absorption of minerals, stuff like that. This is due to gut problems, mainly.

Anyway, sometimes is hard to go against what lyme doctors offer, totally on your own. But I just tell you for myself: never ever I would give such a massive dose of antibiotic to a child. There are many too many other milder options.

I would start with Buhner's approach instead.

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naturegirl
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Was there a certain herbal protocol you used? Did you start with Buhner? My son was diagnosed with autism at almost 4 years old so he does have the attention issues, allergies. Is ART the same this as NAET? This is the first time my son has been on any antibiotics ever. I am hesitant to add the next one so am seriously considering the herbal route, I just don't know where to start.
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Christopher J
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Do the antbiotics now. I mean ask yourself a question, do you want to sit there 10 and 20 years from now with a lingering ongoing late stage Lyme affecting every part of your kids life? Hit it and hit it hard now.Far better than the alternative. The one thing that infuriates me like no other is that when I first got bitten by a tick a decade ago and went to a doctor, they didnt give me antibiotics. I mean even a minor dose of doxy at that early stage would have killed it. It is the active discouragement of antibiotics lately that has caused a Lyme explosion. You went to an LLMD for a reason, follow their advice
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Lymetoo
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I would follow their advice too. I WOULD be a bit concerned about taking 5 antibiotics AT ONCE? Is that what he recommended?

I would avoid any fluoroquinolones .. at all cost, however.

Be sure to get Florastor and a regular high quality probiotic along with it.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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naturegirl
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We start with one antibiotic and keep adding a new one each week.
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hopingandpraying
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My son doesn't have Autism and other disorders, and I don't recall that many antibiotics being given all at once when he first was treated many years ago! I would discuss that with your LLMD.

Read the book "The Lyme-Autism Connection" by Bryan Rosner & Tami Duncan which also might be helpful:

http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-autism-connection

Sent you a PM with a couple of names of LLMDs who deal with Autism.

Here are some links for you with good information about Lyme and children:

http://www.childrenslymenetwork.org/

https://sites.google.com/site/drjoneskids/symptoms-literature

https://sites.google.com/site/drjoneskids/home

Here is a link for a book titled, "When Your Child Has Lyme Disease: A Parent's Survival Guide" :

http://www.lymeliteratepress.com/

[ 06-24-2017, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: hopingandpraying ]

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TF
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naturegirl, give us the first letter of the last name of the doctor and the state he/she is located in.

There are VERY few lyme doctors who will treat such a young child. We have an outstanding doctor in D.C. who will, however. I sent you information on her--Dr. S. If this is the one you are seeing (a woman), I would trust her completely.

Starting each antibiotic a week apart is an excellent approach. This way, if he has a bad reaction to a certain one, you can stop it immediately and call the doctor for advice.

Autism in a young child with lyme is often a misdiagnosis. It is often the lyme that is causing the autism-like symptoms. This comes from the world's foremost pediatric lyme doctor, Dr. J in Connecticut.

I have no knowledge of a pediatric lyme specialist who is also a specialist in autism. I hope you are seeing Dr. S. in Washington, D.C.

It is not unusual for the child to be given 3 to 5 antibiotics. It seems that most children can't take 5, so he may end up on only 3 or 4. Dr. S. will go as slowly as necessary with dosages and trying and retrying the necessary antibiotics so that your son can get well.

I believe I sent you some patient reports regarding children as young as your son or younger and they show the number of antibiotics the child is taking--3 or more. These children are doing VERY WELL.

If you no longer have these reports, let me know and I will send them again. One is about a boy born with lyme and it includes the number of antibiotics he is taking and how he is now a normal 4 year old boy! The mother says this:

"My son has pretty much stayed on the same 5 meds throughout, now on malarone instead of mepron.

He seems to be doing well, a normal, high energy little boy." (dated Sept. 2016)

This child was in bad shape when he started with Dr. S over a year ago.

If you have never read the Burrascano Lyme Treatment Guidelines, I strongly suggest that you do. This will give you an idea of the number of antibiotics that are needed to treat lyme and also its coinfections. Nearly every single patient with lyme also has coinfections. If he has been sick at least 1 year, he definitely has coinfections.

Each coinfection must be treated with its own antibiotics, and lyme must be treated with at least 2 antibiotics taken together if not 3.

The Guidelines are here:

http://www.lymenet.org/BurrGuide200810.pdf

Dr. Burrascano was THE lyme disease pioneer and the most successful lyme doctor on the planet. They came from every country of the world to be seen by him.

Look at pages 18-20 to see the antibiotics and dosages that he prescribes for children. Read page 12, "Combination Therapy" to find out why one antibiotic at a time will not work to cure lyme.

In addition, you would do well to read the notes I took on a talk that Dr. J (pediatric lyme doctor) gave a few years ago. You will see how he says to tell the difference between lyme and autism. The notes are here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/1/112243?#000000

Welcome to LymeNet! We will help you here all we can.

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Keebler
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Most likely, they are not all antibiotics as they won't touch some of the coinfections. Other kinds of Rx are required.

I would contact Dr. J's office.

In addition, you might think about dietary / nutrient / naturopathic support but as Bb, babesia and bartonella are all very serious, indeed, I suggest following your LLMD's advice - as long as they are ILADS educated and have experience with children.

I'd first contact Dr. J's office and connect with parents' group, too.

PROBIOTICs and ways protect the gut & support the gut microbiome is very important.
-

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Keebler
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I see that hoping&praying posted some of these but now I'm too tired to sort out which are there. Some may be repeats. All excellent sources for information / education:


https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-basics/lyme-disease/children/

LymeDisease.org

Children with Lyme Disease - Links


A Pediatric LLMD who is held in the highest esteem as well and has helped many children get better from various tick borne infections.

Even if you may not be able to avail yourself of his services, you might connect with his office for suggestions on who might be closer to you or other details.

If at all possible, I strongly encourage finding a LL doctor who is also experienced with pediatrics. Little kids are not just little adults.

https://sites.google.com/site/drjoneskids/home

Dr. J's Kids


http://www.childrenslymenetwork.org/

Children's Lyme Network

&

TF's suggestion of Dr. S. in Washington, D.C.
-

[ 06-23-2017, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Keebler
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­­When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods, because lyme is so very complex & unique, as are possible coinfections:

if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL ND (lyme literate naturopathic doctor) (or similar) who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -

- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present, and has completed the ILADS Physician Training Program (see: www.ilads.org )

so they really know all they can about the science of lyme . . . how lyme (& other TBD) act and what we can do about that in various ways. Proper ASSESSMENT of not just lyme but coinfectoins is vital. Someone trained by ILADS is best to assess.

Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.

When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.

For those considering complementary support methods / or other avenues entirely:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/13964

How to find an ILADS-educated LL:

N.D. (Naturopathic Doctor);

L.Ac. (Acupuncturist);

D.Ay. (Doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine);

D.O.M. (Doctor of Oriental Medicine);

Herbal Safety considerations & reference books; etc.

BOOKS - Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:

they have a thorough knowledge which methods offer assertive & direct impact, which are only support and which are both. And when to use what, how to combine, & when to step back.

[This is what any LL ND should know but be sure they are up to the task. Be very careful to avoid under-treatment of any tick borne disease.]

You can compare and contrast many approaches with links to articles, books, methods . . .


There is one article here about children and liver support with some special notes to avoid acetaminophen for various reasons.

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=030792;p=0

LIVER & KIDNEY SUPPORT & and several HERXHEIMER support links, too. HEARING support, too.
-

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Brussels
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Poor Naturegirl, with all different types of advice here....

I would not like to be in your skin, but you'd rather read all these sorts of different opinions before taking the decision.

It's much better to take a decision after reflecting all possibilities. If you make a mistake, you did it after pondering, and that is the best you can do, as a parent.


I disagree with Christopher. Unless the boy got ACUTE LYME, just newly infected, massive doses of antibiotics are NO warrant for a cure.

My daughter got 5 weeks of amoxy (only one antibiotic) and developed chronic lyme with arthritis during the intake of it. And my lyme doctor urged me to pull her off amoxy.

Note that she started taking amoxy about less than 48 hours after her first tick bite, non stop, 5 weeks, to no avail!!


Her gut was a mess after that, and we are still treating it, 11 years after that! Whether it was solely caused by the abx or not, we'll never know, but her nails were growing well until about she was 3 or 4. Then after that, her nails stopped growing, for example.

We haven't cut her nails for many years, because there was nothing to cut: they simply grew so thin that they broke before, for years.

Not to speak about several food allergies, that made her social life a hell.


If the boy is in acute phase, newly infected....

... well I would POSSIBLY risk about 5-6 weeks of antibiotics , risk destroying his gut for many many months to years,

....risk having the boy with problems of nutrient absorption for many years to come (growth problems, metabolic disorders, low immunity),...

... risk increase of allergies, that could lead to multiple chemical sensitivities, ...

.... risk the fact that extra drug toxins may go to his brain and cause LONG TERM damage there (if the boy is NOT ADHD cold be still fine, but if he has a tendency, abx must be taken with very much care, in my opinion, because they will not make the situation better for his brain)....


I like the suggestion of taking the boy to a LLMD who specializes also in autism. They will look into the gut very closely, because all neuro diseases in kids are totally connected to the gut.

I'm sure these doctors will be less irresponsible about giving antibiotics without even adding probiotics or neuro toxin binders, like some LLMDs STILL do... [Frown]


A boy of 5 is not a person with 18 or 25 or 40 years old!

Following blindly what a MD proposes is fine when you are an adult and risking to destroy your own health, well, you take the responsibility.

But a child is totally dependent on parents to decide for its life.

It's a HUGE responsibility, that may have consequences for many months or years, or even for a lifetime.

If he lives in endemic area for ticks, well, massive doses today may deal partially with the problem, but that will CERTAINLY not deal with his immune system.

ON the contrary, it will lower his immunity for sure, because contrary to what people keep saying, adding a few strains of probiotics (expensive or not, long term or not) will NEVER replace a flora made of thousands of strains fast.

I think only a parent knows a child well to make the decisions, not an MD. The MD may suggest, you accept or deny as a parent.

I read a lot, then I follow my gut. Both information and intuition helped me decide what to do, usually.

Of course I made mistakes, but at least we both came alive, and now are lyme free (8years) despite NEW BITES.

If you are in endemic area, you cannot treat THIS infection ONLY.

You have to think about treating his immune system, the person as a whole, because the next bite, he's got to react better than he's doing.

I do think lyme treatment in tick infested areas has to come TOTALLY coupled with immune treatment support, so that he can walk on his legs again one day, and not depend on drugs for life!
--------------

My daughter used Buhner's herbs, Cowden tinctures, Dr K's products (frozen garlic), Chinese TCM herbs, micro-current with Rife frequencies to attack pathogens and stabilize her body,..

... homeopathics, Sanum products, Heel products, and finally photon therapy with Borrelia nosodes.

She's bitten every single year by ticks, about 3 times a year in average, but do not fall ill with lyme for the last 8 years.

We're still treating her gut, mineral absorption problems, her nails and hair, her food allergies, but she is active (cycling, horse riding, jogging), she's quite good in school, very social, so apart from these gut-related problems, she is seen as being more or less okay, health-wise.

[ 06-23-2017, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Lymetoo ]

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momintexas
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Is this a new / recent infection?
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Tincup
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Hey Nature girl,

So sorry to hear about your little one. Good to know you are checking out all possibilities though and educating yourself. Good mommy.

Rather than get into another heated brawl here, I will share this post that got out of hand. It has points of view for a variety of people that all, including mine, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Contained within this post is my opinion.

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/136031

I will add, if you don't plan to do what your LLMD has suggested, surely your right, please find another one ASAP to guide you.

Hope "little one" is feeling better soon.

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Christopher J
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I must respond again. There are essentially 2 people on here who I consider verbose and ultimately detrimental to the health and getting better from Lyme and they know who they are.

There is a consistant and might I say based on my direct experience absolutely detrimental aversion to the correct treatment protocols for Lyme disease.

Look I got Lyme and most coinfections a long time ago, and I know how every approach works because Ive tried them all in search of a full answer. These peoples answer of mild dose limited antibiotic are bad advice. This is exactly the way the medical establishment treated Lyme for so many years.

You complain about mass scale lyme symptoms, they half believe you, and then you they give you 2 weeks of Amo or Zith, etc. This only ends up giving you about 5% relief from the fact that you notice 'wow antibiotics are doing something, I do have Lyme'.

It is only after years of research that I found Burrascanos guide and learned how you HAVE TO target all the forms in a way that really keeps it controlled. Cyst, Intra and extra cellular.

The people on here tell you to ignore your LLMD and make up your own antibiotic regimen. That is a bad idea. They do not know more than the Lyme guides available out there and will leave you with a recurring Lyme often worse than the one you had when you took a single semi effective antibiotic on. I know, it happened to me.

Burrascanos guide is not for any particular age, and neither would your LLMD use adult dosages. It is by weight and they know. I do not recommend going doctor shopping because your LLMD is taking what I consider a correct approach.

Now as far as all the antiobiotic hysteria in here. I have been on basically every kind, and while some do have some side effects, I have no destruction of my gut or anything else dire and even with every side effect, the unttreated Lyme symptoms are 100 times worse than any temporary antibiotic effect. It is night and day. And I had to chuckle when I read about the antibiotics going into the brain. They SHOULD if you want to treat neuro lyme because the Lyme sure knows how to get there eventually and hide there when under attack. And this demonstrates the real crux of my entire reply.

If not properly treated early with a proper multi antibiotic approach, the Lyme will eventually reach your CNS and then quite frankly you are screwed because it is very hard to kill late stage Lyme completely. This is why I am so visibly bothered by the willy nilly approach advocated above. Your least concern is the antibiotic reaching your brain, your worst is the Lyme reaching your brain, because the longer you treat it at subpar levels the more it is moving and spreading.

[ 06-24-2017, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Christopher J ]

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Keebler
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Christopher J states very well the need to follow guidance of an experienced and lyme literate doctor.

" . . . mild dose limited antibiotic are bad advice. This is exactly the way the medical establishment treated Lyme for so many years. . . ." Ditto.

Rx can always be accompanied with nutritional support methods and, of course, excellent care of the body is vital. Still, nothing can take the place of assertive & direct action regarding infection.

This means the right dose, right combination, properly timed rotations & a doctor who can make proper adjustments when needed that won't just back off if things are too tough but will know another Rx or adjustments that can work.

Nothing can take the place of a doctor who has the extended education & experience who can see your son in person and leave no stone unturned to be sure there will assertive & direct action for the various TBD.

the success of hundreds of Dr. J's kids prove Christopher J's point, over and over.

Bb, babesia and bartonella are all very serious, indeed. Your son has a chance now to face this head-on.
-

[ 06-24-2017, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Tincup
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Hey Christopher...

You said.. "There are essentially 2 people on here who I consider verbose and ultimately detrimental to the health and getting better from Lyme and they know who they are."

You don't mean me, do ya? [Wink]

You said.. "There is a consistant and might I say based on my direct experience absolutely detrimental aversion to the correct treatment protocols for Lyme disease."

It is obviously bothering you that everyone here- who BTW is not a doctor- will have their own opinions and experiences to share about what worked for them. That is why we are here.

And every Lyme literate doctor will base their treatment protocol to fit any given patient based on the current medical guidelines- which is how the art of medicine works and the law requires....

So please, share your suggestions for members based on your experiences just like we all try to do, but don't keep trying to beat the stuffings out of those you don't agree with in the process.

There is no need for that.

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Brussels
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Hey Tincup, not, I think he's talking about me!!!
Don't try to steal my place!! [Wink]

Anyway, a child of 2 years old cannot take all the abx than a bigger child can!

If you guys believe in abx, just go for it!

Dr. K., who is not a smaller figure in the lyme treatment world, is saying: forget about antibiotics!!

That is what he is recently repeating: FORGET about antibiotics!! They are no longer working!

But Burrascano is saying 'continue antibiotics, increase the dose, mix more of them'

'Add cyst busters.'

If antibiotics prevented lyme to go to the CNS, my daughter would have been a happy child then.

the antibiotic she took for 5 weeks non stop has NOT prevented EVEN Bb to develop into her joints!!!

She had lyme arthritis DURING amoxy intake. From zero symptoms in the joints, to a full lyme arthritis in spite of daily intake of amoxy.

Do the lyme treatment guidelines you guys follow say this is impossible?!

The same way other guidelines say it's impossible to have lyme if one takes 2 weeks doxy?!

Guidelines are guidelines.

They sometimes do not function for everyone!


If Bb reached her joints easily the way it did during amoxy intake, imagine her CNS!

My lyme doctor pulled her off amoxy. He did NOT offer her cyst busters.

Nor more abx: HE urged me to pull her off amoxy and changed her regime, because her gut was a total mess.

Now, if YOUR gut is not a mess, just be thankful for that.

Every person is different, children in growth may not take doxy at early ages, whatever you or your doctors do to your gut, etc, concerns basically your health (not the doctors' health).

I have been fighting chronic candida for 30 years.

Lyme tutu knows what it is to try to fix a broken gut.

It is at least 20 times harder than to fix lyme disease, for me.

At least 20 times harder, if not more.


Lyme went dormant for us, WITHOUT ANTIBIOTICS after 4 years of intensive treatment.

Candida remained for me (not for my child), after about 20 years of treatment.

I'm STILL fighting candida.

Not today, but that is THE awful infection that I keep relapsing, on and on again, for 30 years. Not lyme. Lyme is long gone!!

Ask Lyme tutu if she finds chronic candida 'light' and easy to treat!!

If your guts are in better health than mine, just be glad!

Now, don't say that abx is harmless to the gut flora, because most research points to the opposite direction!!!

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