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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Buhner vs. antibiotics for long term lyme

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Author Topic: Buhner vs. antibiotics for long term lyme
LymeNet Contributor
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Anyone here have opinions on using buhner herbs vs. antibiotics for lyme and potential bartonella?

I mention bart cause an llmd I'm seeing suspects it and actually prescribed bactrim with other abx, but no tests have shown positive for bart either.

With that said I find it confusing reading people online where some say Buhners protocol didn't help them and others think its the better idea to avoid antibiotics.

I'm currently around 1-2 months in s revised buhner protocol as I've taken out herbs that seem risky to me like sida acuta and a few others. But I also get occasional head pains and random what feels like chest pain along with constant fatigue that i have have with or without the herbs. I also don't gain any weight regardless of what I eat the past year or so.

I'm leaning towards getting back on antibiotics though if I don't see some results in the next month or two.

It's confusing figuring out what to do and unfortunately so far no doctor has been a guiding light in all of this.

Anyone have any ideas on this.


Posts: 135 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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Sorry Xela...

You won't find any definitive answers anywhere. It's not a problem only of lyme doctors...

Each person is different (physically, infections, health problems) but also in their minds (some prefer to go drugs, some others don't or can't).

And also, chronic lyme is 'chronic' as the name says.
There is no clear-cut protocol for ANY chronic disease that will fit all.

Chronic illnesses ALWAYS require a multiple approach, because it became chronic due to many reasons.

Some people here think that the bacteria is the ONLY culprit for their illnesses, and then they will treat the bacteria (using anti bacterial protocols, be it antibiotics or herbs or rife....).

I particularly think that any chronic disease is there because of chronic overall body problems, meaning that many systems of the body were affected before 'chronicity' took place:

... digestive, immune, ANS, excretion, probably mental/psycho.

Depending on what YOU believe / think, you'll tune your treatment accordingly.

Same as your doc.

He can be either a antimicrobial type of guy, or he can be a systemic + holistic type of guy.

In my opinion, choosing between abx or Buhner is mainly dealing with the antimicrobial part of the problem,

... even though Buhner is more complete in the sense that he also suggests herbs that also clean the body, and he's also thinking of an approach to lower inflammation and cytokine storms.

But Buhner alone, in my opinion, may be not enough either.

Without controlling your diet (allergen free and avoiding stuff that increases inflammation), correcting your sleep (so that you reach deep sleep every night, and enough hours), ...

... exercise regimes (if you are able), detox (sauna, baths, ionic foot baths, thorough organ support, binders...),

.... it is quite hard to get rid of a stubborn lyme or any chronic infection (even guys with herpes or candida have very hard time getting rid of them with simple single approaches).

I over react to most drugs or even natural things.

I fare much better with natural treatments such as homeopathy, frequencies, light, high magnetism, stuff like that.

Whatever the path you choose, it can be easy if you're the lucky type and your body is strong enough to fight the rest on your own.

But if you're like me and some of us here, you'll need much more. A thorough commitment to get well, meaning, a multiple approach.

Of course, we all tried the short cuts: antimicrobials first + nothing else.

Then slowly started adding supplements such as magnesium, milk thistle, some gut bacteria.

Then binders. The cutting foods that seem bad for inflammation. And so on.

I hope you find your way. It's more a problem of you, your mind set, your commitment or not, than expecting someone else, or an external protocol to heal you.

Whatever people choose to do, when they persist, they get better, in my feeling.

The worse you are, or the most resistant is your problem, the more changes you need.

I would rather go natural because at least, I'm not overcharging my body with chemicals.

Posts: 6196 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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You can use Buhner herbs WITH antibiotics if that is the way you are leaning towards, but Brussels is right to suggest making sure you have supportive and detoxification/binder products and routines in place.

Because of the different combinations of pathogens we have and the different detoxifying capacities of us all, there is no one right path. If you can afford to try other therapies at the same time, you could also look at bioresonance, biomagnetic pair therapy etc.

Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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People keep asking me to send them the following info so it keeps getting updated. Here is my latest update:

The Buhner protocol that I used for treating lyme is his “An Example of a Useful Neuroborreliosis Protocol” on page 217 of his “Healing Lyme” book. I did not pick and choose which herbs to use but there is leeway in amounts to use. I did this protocol for a year and have a quart of tinctures in reserve in the case the illness from hell ever shows up again. That year ended in May and I no longer have lyme symptoms. There was slow but continued improvement using the protocol.

For bottling the tinctures and after processing them, I used two pint bottles. As an example, into one I funneled equal amounts (1/2 cup each) of polygonum cuspidatum, salvia miltiorrhiza (red sage root or dan shen), scutellaria biacalensis (Chinese skullcap), and cordyceps. Into the other pint bottle, I poured 1/2 cup each of eleutherococcus (Siberian ginseng), Uncaria tomentosa (cat’s claw), Glycyrrhiza glabra or uralensis (licorice), and Uncaria rhynchophylla (cat’s claw with hooks from 1stchineseherbs). Three times a day I took one teaspoon of the tinctures from each pint bottle and ingested them for my main treatment.

For witheria somnifera (ashwaganda), I took 1/2 tsp in the am and 1 tsp before bed of the powder. I made and used an andrographis tincture separately because I was sensitive to it. The andrographis capsules bothered my gut as did too much tincture so I had to work out dosing and I had to use the tincture rather than the capsules. For selenium I ate some Brazil nuts each day. I did use Great Lakes gelatin powder and vitamin C but did not use tryptophan.

How I made the tinctures:
I’ve tried the vodka and brandy approach and have found that they are inferior to 190 proof alcohol combined with distilled water. Usually the best proportion of water to alcohol is about half alcohol and half distilled water. The Buhner books tell the optimal alcohol/ water ratio for the herbs he recommends. I also use “Making Plant Medicine” as a reference. I’ve tried Everclear and do not like it. I’m sure they use chemicals and it shows. I use 190 proof organic grape alcohol that I get from I buy it by the 5 gallons to cut down on price but it is very expensive. Regardless, the final product is a fraction of what it would cost to buy already made. They have other cheaper organic alcohols that would probably work just fine but I have not tried them.

I buy the herbs I need mostly from mountainroseherbs. I get them pretty whole and grind them in my Vitamix dry grains container for maximum freshness. Powder or finer herbs could be used to eliminate the need to grind. I put the herb, usually 4 ounces, into a quart canning jar. Then I add alcohol and distilled water, tightly put on a canning lid, and shake. I then put the jars in the basement in the dark and shake them every day. As the liquid is absorbed and the level in the jar goes down, you may need to add more liquid in same proportions. This generally happens within 3 days. If I’m in a hurry, I macerate the herbs for two weeks before filtering but usually I process them for six weeks. It’s important to label with name of herb and date. You will forget.

After 6 weeks, I separate the herb from the fluid using a filter that I made. I made my filter by using a quart plastic yoghurt container. Into it I sat a pint cottage cheese container, the bottom into which I had drilled drain holes. The coffee filter I then nest into the pint container. Pour in the raw tincture and wait for the herb to filter out. Put the fluid into a separate jar but keep the herb. There are good minerals and substances in the soaked herbs.

To capture all the essence I can, I squeeze the strained herbs with an Oxo potato ricer which has a circular, unbleached muslin cloth that I cut out for the task of covering the ricer holes. After squeezing, discard the solid herb. Then, I do a second filtering, putting the tincture fluid, including the squeezed fluid, through my coffee filter to eliminate more of the residue. The filtered fluid will still contain some residue. So after, I let the herbs sit for awhile to allow the residue to sink to the bottom, then I pour the upper clear fluid into a separate jar and put the rest, which still has some residue, into a smaller container. I let that settle again and keep the clear part, repeating as long as separation is viable. Eventually I dump the now very small liquid with the residue out. I’m not sure that getting rid of the residue is necessary.

It’s important to protect the tincture from light so I generally use pint amber bottles:

About buying 190 proof alcohol: Washington state and in Oregon both require a liquor license permit to purchase 190 proof alcohol.
I obtain a permit from the state when I am low on the stuff and I email it to as required before the purchase. The license is good for a year.

The reason I give to my state's liquor licensing people to justify my need for the alcohol is that I am experimenting with a new product. This is in keeping with a website that I have featuring chocolate. The fee for the license in my state is only $5.

I've figured that, even with the expensive alcohol that I buy, the cost is about 1/4 what it would be if I purchased the tinctures online.

Good luck to all.

Posts: 704 | From WA state | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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I should have added that I got rid of babesia in 2015 in five months by using Buhner's protocol for it.
Posts: 704 | From WA state | Registered: Jul 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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Thanks everyone. I totally get that this is a long term disease. No easy cures here! I work daily to try to keep my diet as healthy as I can too. It can be tricky and I still eat stuff like bagels sometimes but I've cut out most dairy, minimize wheat/bread and try to have a lot of vegetables in my diet generally. I also don't drink any sugar drinks like soda, and tend to have teas msot of the time.

I think I will continue giving the herbs a shot for a little longer. Maybe a few months before I decide if I want to use antibiotics again. I do like that the herbs seem to be generally at least, less damaging than antibiotics. I don't think I've had any serious side effects from the herbs so far where as with some antibiotics I can feel them strongly with my body sometimes.

lymenotlite, Thanks for the detailed protocol. I'm gonna look into those herbs as well.

Posts: 135 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator

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