Same way that antibiotics sometimes lower apparent symptoms of lyme.
---------------------------- - Borrelia can creep into your body for years, decades, creating minor symptoms and mining your immune system until a collapse happens.
- Same as for any of the herpes family of viruses: it stays in your body forever, it may create minor symptoms, or it may create loads of symptoms. It also mines the immune system.
I love you guys with the simple equation thinking: Acyclovir is not going to help my lyme symptoms!
Well, I'm not proposing that because we all know that even antibiotics will not do much for lyme either.
The last thing I think would be reasonable to do is to take a chemical antiviral.
Just read the info on acyclovir:
" Use acyclovir with caution if you have kidney disease or any condition that weakens your immune system.
If you have these conditions, you could be at risk for serious reactions to acyclovir."
Well, chronic virus, chronic infections, chronic borrelia is already a chronic immune weakness.
No one with active chronic infections should be taking Acyclovir. -------------------------------
Can't you realize what you are saying?
Something like:
"A 'simple' virus infection is easy to heal with antiviruses (like my herpes was), there is no such a thing as a chronic viral infection creating low grade symptoms (or acute symptoms) difficult to treat, difficult to diagnose because the antiviral cured my herpes!"
If you people in the lyme community cannot understand that there MAY BE OTHER pathogens that are as immunosuppressive as Borreliosis, that can create low grade symptoms, that can become chronic, that is difficult to diagnose AND to treat, well, I don't know who can.
The whole world out there is thinking the exact same about the lyme community:
"Lyme is just a 'simple' bacterial infection, easy to heal with antibacterial treatments (I know someone who was easily cured), and there is not such a thing as a chronic bacterial infection creating low grade symptoms (or acute symptoms), difficult to treat, difficult to diagnose. It's all in your mind!"
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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I hope you have a good couch to wait for scientific proofs.
First wait for conclusive serology tests to appear in the market, to first prove whether the patient has active Borrelia and the dozens of coinfections, both tick born and non-tick born.
We're still some time from that... Specially because the number of lyme coinfections, just seem to increase.
Then wait for the whole scientific community to accept EACH of these tests as being THE valid ones that prove when the infection is active and when it is not (because most of these pathogens remain in the host for life, so there must be a way to see in serology a difference which means 'active' or 'dormant').
After that, doctors will have a tool to access whether a patient is ill with which infection, how much each infection is active in the patient, and see if a treatment lowers the active symptoms from each infection in the serology, so doctors can start finally trials.
After a few years, there will be some clues emerging about treatments and improvements.
I sincerely don't feel that young to wait...
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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I was one of the first persons to try Buhner's herbs when he first published his book a couple of months after his book was published in 2005.
There was just one more person in lymenet who started trying that back in October 2005, if I remember well.
I'm a practical person, looking for treatments and solutions, not for proofs.
I've got a PhD in another field.
It's easy to remark that medicine is not a science like math, physics or chemistry.
We talk about pathogens as though they were fixed entities, but even that is just a myth: each pathogen keeps changing pleomorphically, one can spend one's life studying a single pathogen and one will still not know much about it.
Today we know that one drug may work for one of the forms of Borrelia, but the same drug won't work for another (like L-forms).
The point is, ALL bacteria are pleomorphic, not only Borrelia.
So even if you concentrate your efforts in one single species of Borrelia your whole life, you got already a big field of study (concerning treatments that work for each type of pleomorphic forms of Borrelia).
And as Buhner says, bacteria learns from one another, and each generation has a different set of tools to survive, because it never stops learning.
Borrelia of today, is not like Borrelia of 2005.
Now you add all tick born co-infections + non-tick born co-infections which are part of the lyme 'syndrome', each of them pleomorphic, each of them evolving and LEARNING strategies from each other, improving each generation, and you already don't know WHERE your field of study starts or ends due to mere number of variable elements.
So I'd rather do like we all do: go to a doctor who is known to make their patients feel well and see what he proposes.
Now you guys keep coming back with this non-sense comment: "Well, this doctor may have cured hundreds of lyme patients, but where is the scientific proof?"
Come on guys, I don't even consider medicine is a science because the human body is not a machine like a diesel engine, that runs on equations and laws of physics and chemistry only.
No. Not only the human body is complex, so are pathogens.
You can keep wanting the science behind - the same science that cannot find out what causes the MAJOR chronic diseases that plague humanity today.
They have no clue how diabetis start, no clue about high or low blood pressure, about cancer, it's not even a matter of lack of money.
Look at cancer, if the cancer industry had no money to do their research, I wonder who will ever have.
Despite all that, their recommended treatment is still one that has been practiced since the Iron Age, probably, when knifes and swords appeared: chop the sick organ off + extremely poisonous treatments that kill the cancer cells AND any healthy cell indiscriminately.
If you believe in medicine as a science, good, but I sincerely believe in treatments that may make you feel better, and treatments that may not.
Don't be too naive to think that fighting 'simple' virus in its chronic form is to take a 'simple' chemical drug, the same way we are not naive to consider Borrelia as a 'simple' bacterium that dies with a 'simple' chemical drug.
Brussels
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posted
And with sincere respect for Keebler, that I know is our best source of info at lymenet...
...once the ticks bit you and you developed all your symptoms
- like it happened to me MANY TIMES as I had been bitten at least 84 times in the last 14 years, and I'm counting the minimum numbers, which are about 6 bites a year, while I could get up to 12 bites/ year without any problem... -
How can we be sure symptoms are caused by Borrelia or tick born co-infections?
The theory of Dr Ettinger could be also true: Borrelia is the trigger that reactivates viruses and so come the symptoms.
We all know that in the ballet of tick born coinfections, 1 or 2 coinfection takes the main role and cause our main symptoms, while others are there, but cause nothing.
Then we treat that active infection, we feel better, then new set of symptoms come, we find out which infection(s) is involved, treat it, feel better, then another shows up (it had been already there, but sort of 'dormant').
I see absolutely no problem with the theory of Borrelia activating herpes viruses in MOST lyme patients. It's already in the statistics.
It could be that herpes are causing symptoms, and Borrelia is in the background, waiting for the moment to show up, growing in numbers, strengthening itself, until herpes is treated, then Borrelia shows up.
Why not?
Don't you guys find it strange that the NUMBER ONE coinfection of lyme are HERPES FAMILY VIRUSES , much more than any of the known coinfections of lyme?
Dr Ettinger said he treated his patients this way aiming chronic viral infections not bacterial, and that they got better.
What is his interest in lying?
(I'm sure dr Rawls would never treat chronic EBV with antivirals either, but do a holistic approach).
I'm sure the equation of lyme-herpes is not that simple as I'm hypothesizing here, that of course tick born infections also play a role on symptoms, ...
....but the fact that so many lyme patients suffer from reactivated herpes viruses, and that they present THE EXACT SYMPTOMS WE ATTRIBUTE TO LYME looks to me TOO interesting to let it go without further consideration.
there is a DIFFERENCE between ACTIVE herpes and CHRONIC herpes, the same way that there is a difference between chronic lyme and acute lyme
I don't suffer from lyme anymore. I'm just doing a brain exercise.
If I still had lyme, I would give myself a try (I mean, a holistic long term treatment against chronic viruses, of course, not a drug treatment for acute disease).
If chronic herpes exists, and plagues lyme patients without their knowledge, that could explain why antibiotics are making the situation worse than better.
I'm not saying this is the truth, but that this sounds like a good possibility.
Bartenderbonnie
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posted
I think we can all agree that's it's never JUST Lyme.
Any chronic illness, be it Lyme, viruses, mycroplasmas, mold, allergies, ect, cause inflammation in the body. Symptoms are similar and debilitating. Inflamation cytokines lower the immune system and cause other illnesses to activate. Lowing inflammation cytokines is KEY. In order to do this, one must address all known causes.
When in doubt, go to the EXPERT, Dr H.
"Lyme Disease is not just Lyme. It is a Multiiple Systemic Infectious Disease Syndrome. Over the past 30 years I have developed a 16 point healthcare map called MDIDS; Multiple Systemic Infectious Disease Syndrome. This 16 points must ALL be addresses in order for a patient to get well."
Page 3; 1. Infections; "Four types of infections are assessed. Some are tick borne and others may be mosquito borne and or transmitted by other vectors ( including fleas, lice, mites, biting flies and spider bites) or due to human to human transmission."
(A) Bacteria; borrelia and other borrelia species (B) Parasites; Babesia and other piroplasmas, toxoplasmosis, intestinal parasites/giardia, pinworm, hookworm, ect (C) Viruses; Herpes simplex virus(HSVI) and (HSV2), Human Herpes Virus 6 (HHV6), Epstein Barr Virus (EBV), Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Coxsackle Virus, Parvovirus, West Nile Virus (WNV). (D) Candida and other Fungi
Page 7; Dr H lists over 30 different laboratories that he utilizes, more than one lab per patient. "There may be multiple intercellular baterial infections, latent reactivating viruses and a broad screening approach is necessary using multiple testing strategies over time."
"IgG1 and IgG3 subclass deficiencies found in our Lyme patient population could represent active viral ( herpes virus, EBV, CMV, HHV6) and a intracellular bateria infection, since these functions are especially important againest pathogen clearance. "
"Although immune deficiency is known to increase the risk of infection, is infection increasing the risk of immune deficiency? Do chronic viral infections found in our study, like HHV6 play a role in Lyme and associated co-infection? HHV6 is ubiquitous, can establish a lifelong, latent infection in its host and is known to be a major cause of opportunist viral infection in the immunosuppressed. Certain flavirus, like West Nike have shown to be persistent."
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Bartenderbonnie
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Wait there's more. . .
Please do not discredit persister and biofilms that are keeping us chronically ill.
According to ground-breaking research by Dr Zhang, published on October 11, 2018; Lyme Borrellia biofilms induce Inflamation in mouse model.
"Biofilm forms of Borrellia caused the greatest joint Inflamation in the shortest time. Persister forms express more virulence such as decorin(DNA) binding proteins."
Persister and biofilms in Lyme disease are what keeps Lyme patients sick
Dr H. on persister co-infections at the 30:00 mark on video;
posted
I doubt it was herpes that claimed Vickie Logan's life.
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Keebler
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- It's dangerous to say "yes" to just antibiotics alone and is also dangerous to declare "no" - that no one should ever take antibiotics for lyme.
Some can achieve success with careful use of antibiotics, antiprotozoal Rx, or other Rx that specifically targets the infections on board in a combination / rotation approach.
Not just antibiotics, though, and too many patients are given just one abx, for too short a time and without treatment for the cystic form of lyme, other forms, or for biofilm issues.
When just antibiotics (or worse, just one kind such as just doxycycline) is used, chronic lyme can actually dig in and that creates so much debility and pain because it allows the cystic form to take hold, unaddressed.
Treatment should always be individualized and mult-faceted.
Some can find success with some other kinds of approaches but they must - must - be specific to the infection(s).
Some who seem to have more trouble with some antibiotics may not have good advice on the best ways to have them work with the body, such as key liver & gut support, etc.
Some just might not be able to do antibiotics even with proper protections in place, though, whatever approach, extreme care must be taken to be certain the approach will address specifically and fully each infection in question.
One cannot just ignore lyme because the treatment is too harsh. Yet finding a treatment that is multi-faceted, can rotate and adjust with the patient can take a long time, the best doctors who are good at this are few and far between and not usually covered by any insurance.
Still . . . there is no one way other than the way that will work for individual. Good medicine is what works. And that can vary from one person to the next.
Still, don't discount antibiotics. Many have recovered with their help, too:
EMERGENCE, the followup to documentary: UNDER OUR SKIN
is proof that antibiotics can be essential to some people recovering from lyme, as part of a protocol. Especially Dr. Marx and the nurse - while a long road, they had great success with Rx to address lyme and other distinct infections, too.
For patients with tick-borne diseases, the path to health can be confounding. Combining integrative and conventional approaches may be the best way forward.
. . . What’s more, many of these hard-to-treat patients, like Makris, turn out to have co-infections transmitted by the same black-legged ticks that gave them Lyme — infections that don’t always respond to treatments for Lyme disease itself.
The blood parasite Babesia, for example, must be treated with antimalarial medications.
And, the co-infections Anaplasma and Ehrlichia do not respond to amoxicillin, a first-line antibiotic often used for Lyme.
Even if these and other co-infections are addressed, [Dr. H] says patients can stay sick for many reasons beyond simple infection itself. . . .
The groundbreaking, award-winning investigation into Lyme disease—the science, history, medical politics, and patient experience—now with a new chapter in this edition.
Check author's website for additional updates, research notes..
See all THREE posts here by Pamela Weintraub (who is a LL journalist who recovered from lyme - and write about her entire family dealing with it in "Cure Unknown" book )
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brussels: [QB] Ok Robin, there is no proof of anything that Borrelia 'excites' the herpes...
Herpes is considered a co-infection in lyme today.
Which to my understanding means, that Borrelia allows herpes to activate due to its immunosuppressive character (like Dr. Rawls says).
That is commonly accepted today as the truth.
................................................
Ok, Brussels, the reason I joined this discussion is because for me, there has been no connection between the two, in symptoms or in aggravated herpes breakouts.
I had herpes first, treated it with acyclovir. Then I got Lymed, and didn't have a problem with herpes and never have, since I can just stop outbreaks with the Acyclovir, or, I guess people take Valtrex these days.
Two different infections, two different sets of symptoms.
If I saw a connection, as in more infections, or similar symptoms, I would report it as part of epidemiological testimony.
But no overlap for me personally, and that's all I can say.
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Brussels
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OK Robin, you THINK your herpes zoster or EBV infection just disappeared because you only THINK herpes causes ACUTE infection.
You THINK it belongs to the past.
The ONLY problem, is that all herpes family viruses stay forever in your body and can reactivate at any moment again.
Like Borrelia.
I also say, I'm free of Borrelia (not true, to the letter), but I say that because I THINK Borrelia is dormant, not causing me symptoms.
We all know it can come back - as it did for me.
Not only Borrelia, but the whole lyme circus came back and back again to me, many times.
Same way blood exams will tell little about the STATE of development of chronic infections.
Since Borrelia went dormant 100% for me, I felt fine for a couple of years.
My reserve of energy had been spent greatly during lyme, my hair was grey, I lost a couple of teeth to lyme, etc.
I stopped treatment, and slowly, I continued to loose teeth. Healthy teeth, die from the root.
Infection for sure, but I had no lyme symptom, or whatever apparent disease.
Slowly, I got more tired, very slowly. Then came weight loss, again very slowly. I can only track that after the years, not weeks, or months.
I can say that in 5 years, I lost 3 kg (about 6 pounds).
Then bits of arthritic pains, but NOTHING compared to lyme arthritis. And they did not really spread, more like stayed stuck to one arm.
I then continued with what I thought were candida (chilblains) on skin, just in winter, but every year got better (less long, less painful).
Until I found liposomal Vit C and it was like A LOT was solved: fatigue is almost totally gone, most of the days, the chillblains were zapped off, my hands and feet look like other humans (not black or dark purple anymore), and after about 9-10 months on lipo C, I gained 4 pounds back (2 kg back).
I have herx-like feelings with lipo C. I thought, well, candida. Or I know vit C is a chelator, so I thought, well, this is a chelation effect, that is why I feel I'm slowly herxing.
Borrelia, candida, babesia, etc caused me HORRIBLE herxes, so I considered: well, this is not lyme, for sure, because I know how lyme feels (horrible).
One morning, I got a flash: 'What if the liposomal Vitamin C is not killing viruses?'
Out of nothing, this question was raised in my mind.
Lyme almost killed me LITERALLY.
I even saw the whole SLIDE show of my life in front of me, while I could say mentally goodbye to all family members, as I could not open my eyes anymore (despite being awaken).
It was intuition and an iron-will to live that brought me back.
Lots of intuition, following my gut feeling, tuning my Buhner's herbs, Chinese herbs, loads of essential oils, HUNDREDS of homeopathics, microfrequencies, acupuncture treatments, LITERALLY 60 different treatments a day, many of them done more than once a day...
My day was filled from early morning to night, and in the night I still had electrodes all over me.
This way I got healed, and survived lyme, and what I was suffering in the last 10 years, is just NOTHING compared to lyme hell.
But this little I'm suffering, and the loss of weight, and loss of teeth, and mounting number of food allergies (at a certain point, it got scary, like Lymetutu here in lymenet), well, I knew something was wrong.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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And those morning words in my head 'What if this all is not a virus?'
It made SO MUCH sense to me, WHY is this liposomal Vit C helping me so much, almost like curing all my hardcore problems.
I had read a lot on vitamin C research, and I knew that one thing it did, and did VERY WELL, was to that it fought all acute viral infections like a champion.
If the dose, frequency and form of Vit C is right, no acute viral infection really thrives on high dose vit C.
As I could NEVER take vit C during lyme - because it burned my stomach - the new lipo Vit C I started taking was a first timer.
How can so many symptoms improve, fatigue disappear, even what I thought were candida on skin after 30 years (no kidding, 30 years suffering with this damn skin infection), food allergies are CLEARLY disappearing, etc etc
My dreaming morning brain brought me the answer: what if this was not a virus?
It took me time to remember Anthony William's book that I read some time ago, and suddenly, I connected the dots.
I really dismissed his claims about Borrelia and all herpes family viruses, but NOW, at this moment of my life when I think I no longer have lyme but have lesser symptoms, well, it is making more sense.
What he says about pathogens living in the liver, blocking acids in the stomach, creating all food allergies, IBS, fermentation, etc also fits my problem exactly.
I swear I'm re-reading the whole book again. He's not totally right when he describes diseases etc, but the general explanation seems to make more sense now, specially after all these connections with HHV-6 and lyme (as Steve posted above), then EBV and lyme (exact same symptoms) etc.
Brussels
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If EBV or herpes are responsible for lyme symptoms or not, is not EVEN important.
The 7 important things to retain are:
1- that herpes viruses are the MAIN lyme coinfection, in terms of numbers of infected people, confirmed by blood exams, ...
....more than ANY of the other tick born coinfections we know, like babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia etc...
2- that herpes viruses have an active period of infection where people may feel weak or strong symptoms (like it may feel like a cold, or a very strong flu, or strep throat)...
...but then it goes into a chronic form, without causing many symptoms, or without causing symptoms at all.
3- blood exams are not too reliable (like with lyme and coinfections).
4- all herpes viruses remain in the host forever and may reactivate at any time.
5- the symptoms attributed to herpes family viruses are EXACTLY the same as LYME SYMPTOMS. Almost to the letter.
6 - The EXACT same diseases that are related to lyme like MS, ALS, Alzheimer, fibromyalgia, CFS, multiple allergies, Bells Palsy, thyroid problems, auto immune problems (all sorts), RA, etc are the EXACT diseases related to the chronic form of herpes viruses (if you read more about each of them, HHV6, EBV, zoster, cytomegalie, etc you'll see for yourself)
7- herpes family viruses are extremely immuno-suppressive, and they do not lag behind Borrelia and bartonella.
I think the problem is that the chronic infection part of herpes viruses is less known - like chronic lyme used to be less known in the past.
Once this knowledge will become more widespread, people will start raising questions.
And then, the problem of TREATMENT will come up.
If these chronic viral infections, that are extremely immuno-suppressive, are present side by side with bacterial, protozoal infections,...
.... watch out what you guys do to your immune system (gut microbiota) because viral infections are NOT easy to show up in blood exams, easy to treat with single drugs, and easy to get rid of as you might think, not in its chronic form.
------------------------------- If you haven't read this until the ËND, please do.
It's from dr Rawls, and he said that he did not start to improve UNTIL he addressed chronic immune dysfunctions --
-- it's very different than the USUAL lyme drug approach "do this and that antimicrobial drugs, shoot at any direction, who knows you might get the right critter? and that may heal your lyme disease one day".
Funnily, practically ALL HERBS known to help lyme can be used against herpes family viruses.
Just do a google search (like cats claw, japanese knotweed, etc)
Herbal therapy is very different than antibiotic approach, that will never address both types of infections (bacterial and viral), nor reinforce or modulate your immune system, clean the body, help with pain etc all at the same time like plants do.
Brussels
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Keebler, sorry but at this point, I'm not with you with the rotation that includes DRUGS for the reasons I wrote above: think viruses as THE MAIN lyme coinfection, and you'll get why.
The main bad point on that, is the damaging of bowel flora and extra burden to the liver that is already overwhelmed with lyme toxins.
The myth of adding some ingested probiotics to fix damage of millions of bacteria and hundreds of beneficial strains killed there is a myth, until proven contrary.
Lyme alone adds to toxicity (as you said), and virtually no one will be free of raising immune problems, such as food and chemical allergies, auto immune problems, thyroid problems etc
Adding more toxicity and more destruction of your bowel flora (the main part of your immune system), more than what lyme is already doing, nope, it seems like a counter-productive approach.
Specially because there are SO MANY other cleaner alternatives today, that reinforce the immune system AND clean the body AND heal the gut at the same time.
If the rotation therapy you mention did NOT include damage to the bowel flora, nor increase of drug toxicity to the liver, yep, that would be great.
Once the rotation includes ANYTHING that damages the immune system - like antibiotics and practically all drugs do (due to toxicity)- no,...
... I PERSONALLY consider that a dangerous therapy that will push the patient into MORE chronic dysfunction, more allergies, more auto-immune diseases, more problems with mold, more candida, more viral infections, more liver toxicity, more thyroid dysfunctions like Hashimoto, etc.
In sum, abx and drug therapy (middle or long term) helps to push the patient into more chronic lyme symptoms.
I don't disagree that it solves some acute symptoms of disease, but it ALSO brings more chronic problems (such as chronic lyme, chronic immune dysfunctions), that are much more difficult to treat.
Of course, emergency drug therapy (abx, steroids) can be always a life-saving procedure - specially because our sick medical system refuses to do cleaner therapies such as iv vit C, iv ozone, HBOT, PEMFs, bee venom therapy etc.
But as a middle or long term treatment for lyme, no I'm personally totally against that - I would never ever do that to my own daughter, or recommend it to my family members or closest friends because of its immune-supressive results.
I did that in the past, and I do regret having done that. Today, abx and drugs are at the LAST line of available treatments for me.
In the last 10 years, I only used it once during a trip, when I got an UTI and did not have my herbs.
I haven't used abx not even after taking off 7 teeth (fully infected at the roots and bone) and doing cavitation surgeries (cleaning the bones). My doctor only gave me energetic nosodes.
Now, I know that even sodium bicarbonate stops an UTI if taken at start of symptoms, so I hope I won't need any abx in the next 10 years, not even during trips.
Buhner, who knows how the bacteria behave, is not for that either: he said antibiotics are 'simple' therapies that may be tried (simple in the sense of inefficient, if I understood well), but short term is okay (he NEVER recommends middle or long term antibiotics).
susank
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posted
Very interesting discussion. When first sick I was Dx'd with CFS - EBV titers kept increasing. Also positive HHV6.
Then I got sick again - a different sick. I was Dx'd with Lyme and Co's. Also CVID - immune deficiency was discovered.
Having CVID I should be having lots of colds, flus and resp. infections - but I didn't/don't. Is Lyme "protecting" me from them?
Interesting - after I started Lyme treatment with Abx - I started getting numerous resp. infections.
I had my first cold sore 40 years ago - and it was bad. For whatever reason I haven't had one since. (Did I really have CVID from birth - could that play into it?).
I started BVT (bee venom therapy) some months ago - and low and behold I got a cold sore. Did the venom do what it's said to do? Make dormant infections acute? Bringing them out and also killing them?
(There is a discussion going on / one of the FB Lyme BVT groups about colds, viruses, etc and the immune system - somewhat similar to this discussion - FWIW - also very interesting).
(I had to give up on mHBOT due to my ears).
There are still so many things we don't know.
Reading the above - I think Brussels makes good points. Excellent actually. So thank you Brussels for sharing your research and experiences.
To Robin 123: I assume you still have Lyme Disease? Do you still get cold sores?
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
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Thanks for the support, Susan.
I never got cold sores (that I remember), or have I? Oh, in winter, maybe, once, at the lips.
But what I called 'lyme' was already gone, if my memory is good.
I got it in South Korea, and at that time I considered myself lyme-free.
It went out on its own (it means, I harbor it, anyway, one more pathogen to my collection!!)
--------------- CVID is just another label - in my opinion - for what lyme is said to cause.
Lyme or ANY stealth pathogen causing chronic conditions make immune problems worsen.
So does EBV, cytomegalie, HHV6 and their family 'friends'. And HIV.
Also candida is stealth. All these infectious diseases are there due to an immune dysfunction.
Immune problems are at the CENTER of lyme disease. It's not a parallel problem.
Lyme is caused by immune dysfunctions, and lyme causes more immune dysfunctions.
I keep telling people that in the past, I just needed one tick bite to fall ill in bed, and become couch bound for months.
Now ticks bite me, and when they are badly infected, they cause me some symptoms, but they go away very fast.
Same as for my daughter, who got severely ill after being bitten on the head. Now we continue to be bitten, and no more wheel chairs, no more encephalitis, no more lyme!
Now Dr Rawls says that openly too: if he had not addressed immune dysfunctions, he would be still sick with lyme disease.
He SAYS that. Which means, lyme is an immune system dysfunction disease, caused by it, and causing it to become worse!
The only way out, is to fix immune dysfunction.
People think that staying away from ticks will avoid falling ill again with lyme.
It's just a false belief.
Herpes and candida are living inside us, all of us, no one is free from them, and can be reactivated any time.
You don't need a tick bite for that.
We in the lyme community are only concentrating on ticks, on BACTERIAL INFECTIONS, but the problem is already inside us - the faulty immune system which can cause ANY pathogen to awaken, be it bacterial, fungal or viral.
Even parasites are thought to colonize us due to immune dysfunction.
Why has it got messed up?
I think most immune problems can be solved, but it's never too easy, once it became chronic.
Like dr Rawls said, you got to attack 5 points:
- your diet (faulty diet) - physical triggers (lack of exercise, lack of sunlight, accidents, etc) - psycho triggers (stress, sadness, trauma, social stress...). - pathogens - toxins
I also believe this is the only way out.
But when attacking pathogens, do not add more toxins to your liver, and do not make your immune system weaker.
-------------------- I think bee venom is a therapy that kills pathogens (broad spectrum), awakens the immune system and is anti inflammatory.
But I don't believe on mono therapy. I see them as a support.
Maybe it works as solo therapy for some people that are less sick or that have less problems (even if they almost died, it could be that they were affected by fewer problems, like one bad acute infection?)...
.. but I think diet, toxins, phsycho therapies ALSO play an essential role in immune dysfunctions.
I hope you find your way out, Susan!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
To Susan - thx for asking - I had Lyme for 25 years before it was discovered, so it's not going away - I manage it.
Acyclovir knocks out any herpes infection. It's more about avoiding triggers, like no hot spicy food, unfortunately - that's a trigger. Many people today take Valtrex.
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susank
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posted
I wonder about my Lyme and CVID Dx coming around the same time.
I did the vaccine challenge. Passed HiB. Failed Pneumovax. (didn't respond). To me that meant - and solidified - that I have had CVID since birth - just didn't know it.
Weird though. I looked at old bloodwork. Before Lyme my globulins and A/G ratio were normal. (from chem panel). Around the time I was getting sicker - felt it was something different than EBV - more symptoms - all worse - my Globs and A/G became abnormal. A clue to immune deficiency.
There is also the HLA DR DQ (susceptibility) aspect. I did the test. Results said I was in group that was Lyme and mold susceptible.
Do I think HSV/EBV causes Lyme Disease? No. Not directly. Certainly something is going on with the viruses, bacteria and our immune systems creating a perfect storm.
I don't think Abx is the best treatment for Lyme and Co's.
IMHO our best chances are with mHBOT (making our bodies "undesirable" for the bugs). And BVT - which also seems to work on viruses and bacteria - the venom pushing the pathogens out of hiding and killing them.
Brussels I don't remember how you healed from Lyme. Homeopathy? Nosodes?
Robin - I took Acyclovir years ago as IIRC it was hoped would help with EBV as well HSV. I doubt I could tolerate it now. I don't seem to tolerate such things as I could many years ago.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
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posted
I sincerely think Robin and Susan would profit from doing the following homework: reading about chronic STEALTH infections with accent to herpes family viruses.
That means not only CHRONIC EBV, but ALSO chronic HHV6, chronic cytomegalovirus, HSV1 and HSV 2 (simplex), H. zoster and HHV7.
It's wrong to assume that Valtrex or ANY antivirus is the answer for CHRONIC infections.
Otherwise, they WOULDN'T become chronic NOR be called STEALTH infections.
What you talk about is ONLY about the acute phase of herpes, not the latent or chronic disease.
What you say above means that you have no IDEA about how a chronic viral infection acts, what symptoms they could cause, and what treatments would affect them - CERTAINLY these are not antivirals.
I find it amazing how people with lyme ONLY think that there is ONE or a couple of stealth infections, and all are TICK RELATED only.
I'll change the title to 'Does herpes cause lyme symptoms?', and maybe my point would be clearer...
The answer is 'yes' if you go check the symptom list for CHRONIC herpes family viruses, NOT ACUTE like you are both doing.
And Susan, with that comment on genetic problems (CVID), I don't know what can you do with that information in your hands.
I sincerely find it a loss of time to look for genetic problems.
Not only because doctors will then entitle to say 'you are guilty with your faulty genes, that is why my treatment is not working with you'....
... but because it sends a bad message to your mental field - that accepts to be ill forever due to bad luck (got the bad genes from SO...).
I'm really for epigenetics and Bruce Lipton, Ben Lynch, Robert Naviaux, that think genes can be changed, activated or inactivated, depending on your life style, choices, diet etc.
There is a whole research out there proving to you that genetic 'defect' is a disease, that is treatable, and not a 'death' sentence that you'll carry for life.
Even if you were born with it, gene expression can still be changed (in most cases).
I think soon all these genetic tests trends will be outdated.
Ben Lynch, who wrote Dirty Genes, does not even recommend any genetic test. He says it's a loss of money and bad results will not bring you much in front, healthwise.
He though talks about all common genetic problems, but using epigenetics as a background. Quite interesting, I find.
Here in Europe, very few people would test for such genetic 'errors'. At least, not in the German-speaking countries, I rarely see talks about that...
I guess it's more a trend in the anglo-saxon world.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- you state: "I find it amazing how people with lyme ONLY think that there is ONE or a couple of stealth infections, and all are TICK RELATED only." (end quote)
First, This is not true, this has never been true of most who learn about lyme and all that entails. Folks new to lyme soon learn of the complexities.
Second, Please do not insult people with lyme with such a generalization - that is just not a correct view, actually.
I've never seen a group more engaged, curious and willing to study than those with the misfortune to have contracted lyme & all that goes with it, especially since it can differ from each patient and many have to figure out much on their own.
For decades, ILADS LLMDs have always said it's complex. ILADS conferences for decades have included various other kinds of chronic conditions and chronic infections in their presentations. Every year, every conference.
Yet, it is also vital to keep up on all the new science about lyme, itself for that can be a mighty foe, even if it's not the only player.
Also - for decades - there has been inclusion for complementary treatments, too, either in combination or during times of rotations, etc.
And there have often been presentations about those, too, with inclusion as to helping the body manage various kinds of treatment paths.
Most ILADS minded LLMD and LL NDs, in article, blogs and books consider a wide range of influences, not just lyme - though, again, lyme can't be left in the dust, either.
Lyme CAUSES immune dysfunction, very often. So even if a person does not have immune issues prior to contracting lyme, the Bb infection - itself - can cause immune damage / "flipping" the way the immune system is supposed to work
as Bb's various forms are capable of evading immune detection.
Bb absolutely must still be vigorously assessed / addressed by various methods strong enough to work, long enough - or rotated & combos changed over time - long enough to work along with other methods and attention all other players
on an individual basis as per needs of each patient.
And for those who have to learn so much on their own: "Cheers" to your courage to persevere and learn all you can
from a variety of top, educated and experienced professionals as those who give the presentations, write the blogs and books . . . to see what rings a bell for you at various points in time.; -
[ 01-14-2019, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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susank
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posted
Brussels - quick reply for now. I did the HLA DR DQ testing after I got so many IND's on my Igenex tests. And no bands ever on Labcorp and Quest.
We suspected I had Lyme - and I asked to do the test HLA. The results helped me believe I might really have Lyme. I fit the profile.
The positive test on the culture test finally confirmed it. (if that test is to be trusted).
What I find so interesting about BVT is the venom making the latent viruses - amongst other things - acute - come out of hiding - to be killed - if in fact the venom can do it. I think it can.
Not having had a cold sore for decades - then starting BVT and breaking out with one - as has happened with other BVT'ers - gotta wonder.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
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posted
Dr K used to say BVT is a very wide antimicrobial.
There are few natural products that are so widespectrum as BVT.
One is propolis (but less strong than bee venom, also known to fight viruses well), needs to be taken long term, in my opinion...
... the other is raw garlic (allicin), that is also an amazing potent very wide spectrum killer (even some parasites will be hit).
Dr. K sells the frozen garlic version that is very potent. I used it often during lyme. It's also a potent antiviral.
I like to eat homemade kimchi with LOADS of garlic, I find it's nourishing, tasty while its probiotics also help kill like hell. I think kimchi is even stronger than frozen garlic, probably because of the double wham effect (with probiotics)?
Propolis also kills mold, when put in air vaporizers.
It's funny you say your viral infection woke up with BVT. When the immune system starts functioning, it will go after many dormant pathogens, and the person will become symptomatic.
But it lasts short term, if you're on the good path (good treatment), because the body is able to contain the infection (as it can't hide anymore).
Then the body goes look for next victims, if the immune system is working, and you get another sort of active spot with inflammation, and so on...
If you start liposomal Vit C, you'll have the same happening to you.
Many dormant infections may somehow show up, it's probably because lipo C goes inside the cells and pushes out intracell pathogens... which is a good sign, I find, specially if the infection / inflammation solves within a reasonable short time, mostly on its own.
It's the only way out: cleaning layers and layers of active and dormant infections, lowering the load of pathogens AND TOXINS, until the body will be able to handle anything on its own.
I forgot to answer your question: I did start with Buhner's herbs coupled with Chinese herbs, then did dr K's therapy at the SAME time (with some Cowden), cleaned my teeth, ...
....heavy metal detox, mental detox, microcurrent, an incredible amount of homeopathics for support (detox, symptom management), some parasite treatment,...
... then finally found infrared therapy (photons with nosodes) and that marked the end of my active lyme.
I stopped all 'lyme' treatments for the last 9.5 years.
Lyme left me with grey hair, lost teeth (they continued to weaken after it was gone, losing one tooth every 2 years or so), few food allergies (but that increased slowly with the years after lyme), ...
...no more joint pains (but after about 5, 6 years, I started having bits of joint pains, here and there, nothing bad so far), and in the last 5 years, lost of weight (slow but sure).
I don't call that lyme, but the theory of low grade infections causing these mild symptoms seem pertinent.
I was getting more fatigued, probably due to extreme low weight, more food allergies, etc.
Liposomal C stopped that for me. I'm gaining weight again, food allergies are receding, joint pain stopped progressing...
That's when I had the impression Lipo C was not only cleaning toxins, but actually, was killing viruses (or pathogens).
I have herxes with Lipo C, need chlorella + bear garlic to stop herxes, the same way I needed during active lyme.
The fact that so many people react well with lipo C for such an amount of problems make me wonder if we are not all fighting some sort of chronic infection. It makes sense to me.
Whatever you use that is widespectrum is best.
I did not know that cats claw is an excellent antiviral and also somehow widespectrum, as it also fights bacteria. I felt very good with cats claw, that I took for 2 years, non stop.
It did not solve lyme, but it helped me, no doubt.
I wish you good luck with BVT!!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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steve1906
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posted
Hi Brussel,
* (LIPOSOMAL VIT. C) What brand and (MG) do you use?
* I use (DACHA) 1200 MG.
Steve
-------------------- Everything I say is just my opinion! Posts: 3529 | From Massachusetts Boston Area | Registered: Jul 2008
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Brussels
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posted
I see it's a buffered form of ascorbic acid (ascorbyl palmitate), already a sort of fat soluble vitamin C.
I use simple ascorbic acid.
The difference between buffered and non-buffered is the potency (much stronger when pure), and how it goes in the stomach (much more aggressive when pure).
BUT, when you make pure ascorbic acid in LIPO FORM, with lecithin, it becomes BETTER than any buffered vit C I ever took.
Buffered vit C such as Sodium ascorbate still creates tummy ache for me (it just takes me a couple of days to get tummy aches), while lipo C never did any harm to my stomach.
Of course, your lipo buffered Vit C shall be fine on the stomach, no doubt.
I take about 2-4 grams a day (much more than you).
If you take about 1.2 grams of asc palmitate, it will be about 0.6 grams of vit C only (a rough estimate), because the other 0.6g will be the palmitate part (not the ascorbic part).
It's way too small amount to do much, in my opinion.
I'm super thin (less than 93 lb = 42 kg) and I test myself energetically for 2-4 grams a day of PURE lipo C.
And I don't have lyme, nor big active infections for about 10 years now.
I take 4 grams when something is activating (like a cold), 2 grams is my maintenance dose.
Some people with active cancer (metastasis) take 100 grams of lipo C a day!
If I fall ill with something acute (like encephalitis, hepatitis etc), I would increase to 10 grams a day, if it does not work, I'd keep increasing until I feel better!!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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posted
I don't have active Borrelia anymore for almost a decade, but it seems I DO have active herpes viruses - I just tested myself with my nosode boxes NOW and came up with Herpes zoster, EBV and 2 other viral strains that cause hepatitis.
I had stopped Vit C for about 3 -4 days, just to see what happens, but today it became urgent.
Chilblains are CLEARLY coming back and my gut becomes very imbalanced when chilblains show up.
It's been 2 decades, almost 3 decades of fight in winter, so I know my body well...
I always thought my chilblains were fungal because of how my gut reacted, but now my energy tests now show only H zoster.
I think there might have been a combo with candida too in the past, as I reacted well to candida remedies. Until they stopped working about 5 years ago or so... That is when i started losing weight.
After ingesting the 3 teaspoons of Lipo C, my energy tests can't find ANY viral strain above. Zero, nothing.
I do think I feel so good on lipo C - my skin changed color from dark purple / black on feet and hands to normal skin color, like a living human being - my energy raises, no problem with thinking, brain fog etc.
It has to do with viruses too (and maybe more). Now I could confirm it (energetically, only).
I'm gaining my weight back too. I just need more 2-3 pounds to reach my weight before lyme disease.
The proof lipo C does something are my chilblains, that come back like a clock, every year for at least 2 decades.
If I'm on lipo C, I have ZERO problems, even though my feet and hands continue to feel frozen (with Raynaulds, probably).
If I drop lipo C, they come back (this is my 2nd time experiment, one in Dec, and one now).
I can't stop lipo C yet, until I put these herpes infections dormant.
Now that I think what I'm fighting are chronic viral infections, I'll put some more effort into it, and will try to find proper treatments - probably with nosodes, like I did with Borrelia.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brussels
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posted
I have an idea for you, Steve:
Buy a small box of ascorbic acid in powder, like 100 mg.
Then buy some 200 grams of sunflower lecithin.
And a bottle of good vodka.
Then blend the following proportion: 100 gr ascorbic acid 120 grams sunflower lecithin in powder 200 ml vodka 300 ml water (this is APPROXIMATELY the proportions coming from a known patent of liposomal Vit C).
Blend all ingredients EXCEPT for lecithin for about 4 minutes.
Then add the lecithin, blend more 4 minutes.
You can try that INSTEAD of buying an ultrasound equipment.
this is not liposomal, but it is already a fat-soluble vitamin C plus the benefit of phospholipids from sunflower lecithin.
Take 3-4 teaspoons in the MORNING and check what you feel.
Expect herxes, so have your binders in your hand!!!
if you like it, then you can invest some 25-100 dollars in an ultrasound equipment to create your own liposomes!
Lipo C will be even better than the fat soluble version above!!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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susank
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posted
Brussels - Interesting you mention chilblains and the gut. I get so cold. Esp. my toes. I made the mistake years ago - after being outside in cold - to come inside and take a hot shower - aiming hot water at my toes. That only made things worse. My toes looked they were sunburned.
It's been cold in Tx lately - toes bothering - and also my gut. Interesting.
I have problems with VitC due to IC (interstitial cycstitis). So I can't take much of it.
Doing BVT one is supposed to take approx. 3 grams/day. I confess I don't take that much. I'm hoping that whatever has caused my IC that BVT will hit it - then I can up my VitC dose.
I know I need to be doing something for my poor adrenals. I started bee pollen for that.
In the past before trying BVT when I took VitC I did not get cold sores from it. I only got a cold sore after starting BVT. Supposedly the venom does something to the viruses - making them acute - showing themselves - causing the sores. I don't quite understand. I had read where others got cold sores after starting BVT. I couldn't believe it when it happened to me - after years of no sores. I thought an errant bee had stung me. No stinger found - and it didn't look like a bee sting. When I saw the blister I knew. Tired. wordy - sorry.
-------------------- Pos.Bb culture 2012 Labcorp - no bands ever Igenex - Neg. 4 times With overall bands: IGM 18,28,41,66 IND: 23-25,34,39 IGG 41,58 IND: 39 Bart H IGG 40 Posts: 1613 | From Texas | Registered: Aug 2009
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Brussels
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posted
Sorry Susan... Cold sores, do you mean, these ones from herpes simplex 1 or 2?
See? If it is, it means all these guys are harboring chronic Herpes simplex, and the moment their immune system is awakened, they reactivate (as the immune cells go after the hidden viruses).
I know my chilblains are infection related. I have thought they were candida (because of the relation to gut changes).
I treated it with widespectrum antimicrobials in the past, with good success (Sanum products), then they stopped working.
Only now, after all these new ideas about viruses being the main cause of problems for many people - not bacteria, nor candida as main - is that I came to the idea it could be viral...
Today I did my photon treatment with zoster nosodes, after a chilblain flare, and got 'a bit' knocked down. I still haven't totally recovered.
The treatment caused me strange lung symptoms (as though I had cattarrh which I don't), tingles in muscles / nerves all over my body, fatigue, then extreme bloating.
I ate some fruits and oat, then I got a big D, probably meaning, well, it's killing loads in my gut.
As I only treated with Zoster nosodes, well, it could be that this is all related (I mean, skin rash and gut)...
Sigh.
Crazy that other people get cold sores from BVT.
I strongly suspect that these are all hidden infections - again, chronic, hidden, probably in organs, or intracellular - and the BVT or other therapies make them wake up to be treated.
In my case, chilblains have been my main complain, MUCH before lyme appeared. Very old problem.
I wonder, if my chilblains were caused by zoster (and probably other infections), well, I have it for a very long time (about 30 years, at least).
Cystitis for me disappears if caught on day one. I either take a teaspoon of sodium bicarb (baking soda) early morning, when urine is acid, and this usually means the end of cystitis for me...
the other treatment are urine nosodes. It takes more time that baking soda, but they help more long term if I missed first day.
UTIs happen during detox too, specially on heavy metal detox....
I could never take vit C, normal vit C, not even buffered forms. They hurt my stomach immediately.
Only now, I can take it, high doses, due to fat coating the Vit C (liposomals are made by fat).
I think that over-killing also causes IC... due to toxins that are released.
Toxins lower the pH in the urine, that is my theory... I don't think pathogens survive high pH in the urine, that is why I take baking soda empty stomach early morning - when I usually feel IC is coming...
I hope you find some relief soon. No fun when adrenal fatigue hits....
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