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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Class Action Suit Against CDC?

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Author Topic: Class Action Suit Against CDC?
KeyLymePie
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Hey - I've got some serious Lyme insomnia going on and was just wondering....

What if we found a lawyer and asked 'em about the possibility of initiating a class action lawsuit against the CDC for making false and misleading statements about Lyme disease on their website, or something?

I mean, with all the scientific literature out there showing that the tests are unreliable, the keets persist after 3 weeks of antibiotics etc., and with all the amazingly heart-rending LD sufferers that could be called as witnesses... there would be one heck of a good case... right?

Is this just crazy lyme brain talking, or is it possible to sue a government agency? Anyone know?


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DR. Wiseass
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KeyLime -

I enjoyed reading your idea, and must admit I've had the same idea myself.

The only problems I see at this point is that the CDC has their own so-called 'scientific' experts that would refute any research/evidence that our side would put forth.
AND
Although I think it is indeed possible (and I"m sure it's been done before) to sue a government agency - I think we'd be hard pressed to find an attorney that is willing to go up against the government (Goliath) as they will have far more $$$$ for attorneys, calling in their 'expert' witnesses, etc..

I'm not really trying to poo-poo the idea - I'm just saying it would be a tough battle from the start. That's not to say that I wouldn't LOVE to testify against the CDC if a class-action suit were to be brought against them...I'd be there with bells on - and anything else to show that the keets have really scewed with my brain and now I have no fashion sense at all!

If you got the time & energy - I say GO FOR IT!

Blessings,

------------------
DR. Wiseass - not a real doc - just a real wise ass.
www.twistoflyme.blogspot.com


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HEATHERKISS
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I would testify to the fact that insurance Doctors are very limited in the help they can give Lyme patients without getting alot of flack from the insurance companies. And that the insurance companies use the CDC criteria for their own benifit.

I would also testify about cash LLMD's and fighting for reimbursement from the insurance company.


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Kara Tyson
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I would think they are protected by law.

We have a teaching hospital here in AL, that still tells people there is no Lyme in AL. They are protected from any lawsuits because they are a "teaching" hospital.


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sweet pea
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There must be a lawyer out there with Lyme who is familiar with the CDC nonsense.

By the way, I love your handle, KeyLymePie.


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brainless
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Karen Vanderhoff Forschner of the Lyme Disease Foundation, in Tolland, CT, is going to law school, specificly to do something about this horrendous situation. I believe their site is www.lyme.org

My lawyer said, because of the scope of all of it, we would need a huge law firm. He said this suit would be as big as the states' suit against the cigarette companies.

b


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KeyLymePie
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I wouldn't worry about getting refuted. I've read a lot of the literature now... and A LOT of it points to persistance of LD after antibiotics and underscores the unreliability of testing.

All we would have to do would be to prove that the persistance of the spirochetes is still unknown and poorly understood, and that the CDC's recommendations are therefore misleading in that they don't allow for this uncertainty. And believe me that is easy to prove. We just have to be able to prove a "reasonable doubt" kind of thing...

Plus with all of the personal, devastating stories that could be brought out - the CDC would end up looking majorly bad.

I DO have the energy to try something like this - the question is, how to start? How does one find a high-powered lawyer and get them interested in such a thing?

KLP


quote:
Originally posted by DR. Wiseass:

The only problems I see at this point is that the CDC has their own so-called 'scientific' experts that would refute any research/evidence that our side would put forth.



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brainless
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It has to be a very good suit because, if we lose, LLMDs may have to give up. I didn't say that well but that's, approximately, what one LLMD told me.

b


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valymemom
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I think you have to be approved before you get the class lawsuit moving forward. Wouldn't that be a lawsuit in and of itself?

Hasn't the current administration made class lawsuits difficult to attain??????

Whose side do we think they are on??????


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Kara Tyson
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For some reason, I'm thinking it is impossible for citizens to sue the US Gov (the CDC is part of the Gov).

You can sue state and local govt's.


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tickedntx
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Suing an insurance company which has refused adequate treatment might be a good place to start. There have been some recent suits won against individual doctors and, I think, also the insurers, which might serve as precedent.

Find a good medical malpracticue attorney and ask some questions.


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pq
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For starters,
See Kathleen Dickson on sci.med.diseases.lyme
search name and topic
RICO complaint submitted.
see sites for FDA and USDOJ search for her name.


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Aniek
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The CDC criteria actually says Lyme is a clinical diagnosis. Doctors who refuse to diagnose without a positive test are NOT following CDC criteria. This is not to say the CDC is all good on the Lyme issue, but they havea criteria for reporting and tracking Lyme that is different tha the criteria for diagnosing Lyme.

Personally, I think the insurance companies that refuse to pay when Lyme is clinically diagnosed are a better target.

Lawsuits should also be a last resort. I really don't want the CDC giving millions to lawyers instead of into prevention of illness.


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pq
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Keylyme,

Here are some links, not inclusive w/rt fraud in lyme. http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/01/slides/3680s2_11.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=PureSearch&db=pubme... http://www.bdionline.com/newsletters/newsletter.asp?nid=120&sid=918&mid= http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/01/slides/3680s2_11.pdf
http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/98-12-22-01.all.html http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/CID/journal/issues/v31n1/991200/9912...

wormser http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubme...

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/98-12-22-01.all.html http://actionlyme.50megs.com/ http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/26/eveningnews/main560528.shtml http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=PureSearch&db=pubme... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&... http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=373079&blobtype... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0801852242/103-3960486-1443824
http://info.med.yale.edu/external/pubs/ym_su98/scope/scope_yale_02.html http://www.medscitalk.com/ftopic10032.html http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/98/transcpt/3422t1.rtf http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/inip/call4proposals.htm http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/26/eveningnews/main560528.shtml http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_9829.shtml http://intramural.nimh.nih.gov/inip/call4proposals.htm http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&... http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/89/12/5418 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&... http://www.geocities.com/kmdickson0308/1-4.txt http://www.annals.org/cgi/reprint/140/7/577.pdf http://www.whale.to/m/lymerix8.html http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/142/9/751 http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20041215/01
http://www.rheuma21st.com/archivhttp://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/142/9/751 es/Cutting_MalawistaLymeMay2000.html http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20041215/01 http://ori.dhhs.gov/misconduct/cases/radolf.shtml
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:KT7B4UeOU3YJ:www2.lymenet.org/do... http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/89/12/5418 http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/01/slides/3680s2.htm http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/89/12/5418

http://grassley.senate.gov/ http://www.politicalposts.com/news/index.asp?id=180951
Report Govt Fraud and Abuse: http://energycommerce.house.gov/tipline.htm


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KeyLymePie
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WOW!! pq - what an awesome list of resources!!! I can't see how a carefully designed suit would fail - trouble is - who to sue...

You CAN sue the federal government - but ONLY if they allow it - you have to ask permission to sue them, I guess. Sometimes they let you though.

But I like that other idea Cave76 has about suing a bunch of individual docs...

But that would take a lot of time and money too.

Isn't anyone on this list a lawyer? Hard to believe no Lymie lawyer out there...

In the meantime, I will do more research and I have written to my State Rep in strong support of Bill HR 2877 - HOPE EVERYONE ELSE DOES TOO.


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pq
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Key,

I think that to be most expeditiously productive, it would be best to first study Kathleen M. Dickson's,et.al work that you can find on sci.med.diseases.lyme, the websites for the FDA, and the USDOJ, where you can find her, et.al. testimony, and RICO complaint.

Just beware of ad hominem attacks on her by ANYONE, friend and foe alike, and just focus on the scientific, and medical facts she has submitted.

If you do not understand scientific, and/or medical jargon, please have someone you trust explain the medical and scientific terms to you.

Recently,Kathleen gave links to various politician(s), and governmental entities to whom to write.

I suggest this in order to avoid unnecessary work.

Much of what you mention in your last post, e.g.whom/,what entities to sue, has been addressed.


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KeyLymePie
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umm, pq, is sci.med.diseases.lyme some kind of usenet group? is there someway i can look at it on the web? i'm confused about what that is, exactly... thank for any info.

KLP


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lou
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Yes, you can sue the federal gov't. Native Americans did this regarding the Dept. of Interior's trust fund. Went on for years, several contempt citations.

I wrote several years ago to one of the tobacco lawyers, who went on from tobacco case to suing a couple of health insurance carriers for RICO violations. Don't know how this turned out. I figured he had already gotten rich on tobacco and could afford a case like Lyme disease which had no deep pockets and wouldn't be as financially rewarding.

Never got an answer. Maybe if he heard from a lot of lymies, it might intrigue him. Worth a try.

Here is the name and address I used. Think someone should make sure it is still a valid address.

Mr. Richard Scruggs
Attorney at Law
P.O. Drawer 1425
Pascagoula, MS 39568


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Linda LD
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KeyLymePie,

I'm all OVER this. Anything I can do to help you let me know.

I know a bunch of folks in East Tennessee have sued the federal government over the radiation leaks we had here during the Cold War.

Linda


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brainless
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I believe sci.med is a google group.

b


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daystar1952
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Just a note of interest.....The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group has posted ...for at least a year now, a ten thousand dollar reward to anyone who can prove that Lyme is NOT a chronic active infection. So far, no one has come forward. :=)
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Carol in PA
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KeyLimePie:

Here is the link for you:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med.diseases.lyme

Carol


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burnbitter
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Another idea, we could start by suing quest. I remained untreated because I had 5 negative tests from them (and their previous incarnation as unilab). Not that my doctor was unwilling... just both elisa and western blots were negative from them.

But is the goal to change the standard? Or make money to pay for treatment for our now advanced stage of lyme (and of course the years of pain and lost wages and medical bills etc)?

I think though with the current government administration, big business rules and the insurance companies could kill it.

I would just like the standards to be updated so no one else has to suffer for no reason. I think at this point my own health is somewhat of a lost cause. Part of that is the advanced stage of the lyme, and the other part is that I will run out of money to treat it at some point.

But there is no reason that anyone else should have to suffer like we do. And in the big picture of my healthcare...I think I had nine surgeries for endometriosis which I feel would have been prevented if the lyme had been recognized and treated.

Even several years of expensive antibiotics is cheaper for the insurance company.
Really it must make sense in the big picture financially for us to be healthy working members of society. It seems implausible to think otherwise. I know my health has lost me wages and probably cost several hundred thousand dollars by now.


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pq
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Keylyme,

Some links I provided lead only to pub med, w/o the material provided. sorry about that.

Will clean this up.

go to google.com, and type in the search field the following expression:

sci.med.diseases.lyme

when there do advanced search

in the appropriate fields, enter the following:

1.sci.med.diseases.lyme.

2.'kathleen' or 'Kathleen M. Dickson.'

3. sort by date or relevance.

4. and so on.

Other fields suggest words and expressions to enter.

The EuroLyme group has 1-2 of her papers in the files section.


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Lymerayja
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Can someone please alert the moderators to throw this man off? "Charles" is "Chuck Adams" from sci.med. diseases.lyme, a well-known member of the Steere camp who has been posting libellous messages about ILADS doctors and Lyme activists for years.

He obsessively posts material by Dr Edward McSweegan, disseminating harmful lies to the effect that Lyme is an easy-cured, hard-to-catch, trivial illness, unable to be passed from mother-to-child etc..

There are also indications that "Charles" may have been involved in extremely serious activities outside of cyberspace too - ie attempts to frame ILADS doctors under false accusations, and the persecution of Kathleen Dickson (who testified at the FDA regarding the danger of the Lymerix vaccine, and submited material re Steere camp fraud tothe USDoJ). Kathleen had her children removed under a preposterous false accusation that she wanted to "drive them in a lake." Mr. "Chuck Adams" inexplicably knew about this false charge, and posted about it, before she ever heard it herself.

In 2004 Kathleen was jailed under trumped-up charges. Her Lyme disease diagnosis, despite confirmation by positive serology and SPECT scans, was ignored and she was labelled mentally ill, suffering from paranoia that the Steere camp were "out to get her".

The Steere camp are indeed "out to get her" (ie destroy her reputation and silence her), just as they have tried to "get" Karen Forschner, Joseph Burrascano, and more recently Dr Fein and others.

I have had private conversations with "Chuck" when he harassed me regularly by Instant Message a year ago. He has made fun of the death of Karen Forschner's little boy, ridiculed the suffering of Kathleen Dickson's children and said publicly that he hoped she would be sexually assaulted in jail. He has also made false and vulgar accusations about leading ILADS doctors, and bragged that he was involved in planned CNN documentary to smear all our good doctors (which fortunately has not yet materialised.)

He has threatened me with death, both privately and publicly.

People should be aware that doctors of the Steere camp have been **proven** to have engaged in libel, threats and general disruptive behaviour in the Lyme movement while hiding behind false internet aliases that were later revealed. Dr Edward McSweegan (former NIH Lyme programme officer) and Dr. John Nowakowski (of New York Medical College in Valhalla) have both engaged in this behaviour.

If anyone wishes to confirm what I have said about the past behaviour of this man, please ggo to the Usenet Google group sci.med.diseases.lyme and browse the posts of "Chuckpadams" and "Chuckadams05".

I urge you all to contact the moderators immediately, asking them to kick this man off LymeNet.

Lisa Masterson

ps Here is a typical post from "Charles":

"The cure for Chronic Lyme found!!!!
All 8 messages in topic - view as tree
Chuck P Adams Sep 25 2002, 6:13 pm show options

Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
From: [email protected] (Chuck P Adams) - Find messages by this author
Date: 25 Sep 2002 17:13:20 GMT
Local: Wed,Sep 25 2002 6:13 pm
Subject: The cure for Chronic Lyme found!!!!
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse

http://aolsvc.health.webmd.aol.com/content/article/1674.52656?DEST=We...


The medical condition called hypochondriasis is defined as worry over an
imagined illness with exaggeration of symptoms, no matter how insignificant,
that lasts for at least six months and causes significant distress. It tends to
develop in the 20s or 30s, and it affects men and women equally. It sometimes
comes on following the illness of a friend or family member, and it can also
occur as a secondary illness to depression or generalized anxiety disorder.


Although it's often seen as harmless, sufferers know that it can shift from a
quirky, neurotic character trait into a devastating obsession. "


quote:
Originally posted by Charles05:
"Kathleen M. Dickson" You have to be kidding. She just got out of a mental hospital. I am not kidding, she was jailed and released this past year. Research it yourself

She is nothing but trouble in the newsgroup.


[This message has been edited by Lymerayja (edited 21 June 2005).]


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Linda LD
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Could we sue the Red Cross?

I called them when I first found out I had this and asked them if they would tell the people that I gave blood to that I had lyme--they refused.

I use to give blood ALL THE TIME. All the time...

Just an idea,
L


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brentb
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The CDC lies by ommission. The vertical transmission of Bb (as well as horizontal transmission) is a medical FACT. I've not read what Kathleen's RICO charge states as a whole but the main jest of some of it is for the CDC to come clean and address the facts. That we need a judge for this is sadly a sign of the times.
This may well be the case lymies need to organize behind. I know of no other, and the facts are damning to say the least.

I can also attest to lymerayja and her post. While I have not been around as long as her at sci.med, there is clearly a camp that wants to do away with kathleen. I might also add that they also consider everyone on this group "lymenuts".


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daystar1952
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This was already posted a while back but just thought it was pertinent to the discussion. http://www.rense.com/general64/bondk.htm

If people get more serious about this subject, I think it would be better to discuss any plans behind the scenes and not on a public message board. You never know who may be watching. :=)

Margie t


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brentb
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quote:
Originally posted by daystar1952:
This was already posted a while back but just thought it was pertinent to the discussion. http://www.rense.com/general64/bondk.htm

Margie t


Very pertinent. It's not a disagreement of opinions it's a disagreement of fact vs opinion. The controversy over Lyme has been over for a long time now.


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KeyLymePie
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oh dear - welll, i've done a little reading on this sci.med. site and i want nothing to do with it.... i've never seen a nastier group.

i don't know enough about this kathleen dixon but i don't want to get embroiled in a giant mess... no way.

if we can bring a case, we bring a case, and let a judge decide - no need to get crazy.

i just want to understand a few things since i'm new to this whole controversy:

it seems like this kathleen person already has a suit pending... is that correct?

who is that suit directed against?

pq - if you can get those links fixed and get them to me, that would be great.

but we don't need to argue the case here - i merely was wondering... could a suit be brought, against whom, and what is the best, most realistic way to achieve that?

could it possibly do more harm than good?

what we really need to do is interest one of these big, famous lawyer types - like that tobacco lawyer (who I may try to contact).

at least speaking to someone with experience in class action suits sounds like a good place to start... anyone any ideas or names?

ps, if you have a name, don't post it - email it or something.

i don't wanna get crazy - but a little caution can't hurt.

KLP

ps - our best chance is still with legislation, i believe - so we should all do everything in our might to support these new lyme bills - its really important - write your senators and reps... NOW


Posts: 47 | From New York, NY | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Linda LD
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KeyLymePie,

I have a name--if you will email me I will send it to you.

L


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Lymerayja
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I think it would not be wise, especially so early in the game, to throw lawyers' names out here on this very public group, which we know is watched by the Steere camp. People could email such details back-channel to each other - but only to people they **know well* or who are well-known to other people they trust.

I also feel that a class action suit against CDC, NIH or any of the other culpable government agencies as an initiative **on its own** would not work unless it was accompanied by a very high-profile campaign to expose the Steere camp corruption (and government backing of the fraud) in the media at the same time.

Lisa

ps KeyLyme, I see from your profile that you are a researcher. That's interesting. What field are you involved in?


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KeyLymePie
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymerayja:

I also feel that a class action suit against CDC, NIH or any of the other culpable government agencies as an initiative **on its own** would not work unless it was accompanied by a very high-profile campaign to expose the Steere camp corruption (and government backing of the fraud) in the media at the same time.

Lisa

ps KeyLyme, I see from your profile that you are a researcher. That's interesting. What field are you involved in?


Hi Lisa,

I do research on RNA structure and function at a medical school. Mostly, we deal with viruses though - and I don't really have a background in bacteriology (big mistake on my part... who knew?).

I do hope media exposure of what has been going on in the chronic Lyme debate keeps coming - there are already many good articles out there - but one can't do everything.

I did email about a lawyer name - but haven't received a response yet. But I will keep looking for someone to get advice from about this - and keep thinking of ways to bring attention to this issue.

KLP


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Linda LD
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Lymerayja,

will you please email me?

I have a quick question.

Thanks,
Linda


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Lymerayja
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Linda, my address is [email protected]

quote:
Originally posted by Linda LD:
Lymerayja,

will you please email me?

I have a quick question.

Thanks,
Linda



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Lymerayja
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Raskilnokov,

Please don't confuse me with the hateful "Charles/Chuck". The hypochondria post was his, I just copied it in here so people would know what a prick he is.

Although, as it turns out, he has demonstrated that well enough himself.

Some ILADS doctors do charge lower fees for patients on low incomes. Btw, I have also heard of an American scheme whereby the cost of antibiotics is subsidised for those who can't afford to pay - do you know about this?

Lisa



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Lymerayja
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quote:
Originally posted by Raskilnokov:
Whenever I've addressed Lyme disease activism, pq posts about Kathleen Dickson being put in a mental hospital after having her children taken away. It appears like a threat.

These things did happen to Kathleen and there is good evidence that the person calling himself "Charles05" had a hand in it.

What you have missed is that she also spent many months in jail, and is currently released on the condition that she does "not post any material critical of government" without prior approval from the probation authorities.

Long live democracy!

Lisa


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HEATHERKISS
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Burnbitter,

Quest blows. They screw everything up. I hate them!!!!!!!!! When are ya suiing?

Heather


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Lymerayja
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quote:
Originally posted by Raskilnokov:

Some LLMD's do charge lower for low-income?

I am on a low income and a British LLMD did charge me at a low rate. I also know that where children are concerned they make special provision and there are charity funds organsed by the Lyme movement. However I realise that may not be of much help to you in your own situation.

The antibiotic scheme is not a scheme in the sense of a "scam". The Big Pharma companies are reaping their usual profits, but the cost is being covered, or subsidised, by government funds, as far as I understand it. I have seen this programme advertised on one of the good docs' websites but can't seem to find it now. Maybe some of the US people here know what I'm referring to and can post the link?

Lisa


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Lymerayja
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quote:
Originally posted by Raskilnokov:
That's terrible if true. Could well be what with my own recent experiences with the governement. But it could also be contrived information--there's no way of knowing that it's in fact true.


Raskilnikov, it is **not** contrived information and there **is** a way of knowing that it is true. I have a copy of the document myself, and when I get time and with Kathleen's permission, I will post it up on the web.

Lisa


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