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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Red Root (as per Buhner) anti or pro coagulation effetcs?

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Author Topic: Red Root (as per Buhner) anti or pro coagulation effetcs?
nellypointis
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http://www.swsbm.com/FOLIOS/RedRtFol.pdf

"Many species and local strains have a noticeable wintergreen scent, and in
general they should not be used concurrent with anti-coagulant medication.
Otherwise, Red Root is one of our great, unsung plant medicines. With its ``bloodthinning''
effects, and the current North American diet so heavily larded with fats,
perhaps it is more useful now than in our herbal past."

Others including Stephen Buhner say that Red Root is a potent blood coagulant, that it is used to stop excessive menstrual bleeding for eg.

What to think?

I think it is an important question as people with Lyme often have excess coagulation or "thick blood" because of excess fibrin for eg, and Babesia apparently persists by clinging to the endothelium (lining of blood vessels) thus creating deposits in blood vessels.

Opinions welcome

Nelly

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nellypointis
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The word "eclectic" comes to mind and maybe "lightweight" and a few others that I might keep to myself...I can't say I really go for new agers in a big way!

Nelly

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riversinger
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I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss someone because of their CV, or to trust them, either becuase of the supposed quality of it.

I just switched to a nationally well known LLMD due to a change in my insurance. I am quite happy with his knowledge about Lyme and coinfections, but I was appalled at some of the rest of what he had to say to me.

He was criticizing my use of Armour thyroid, sounding like a shill for Synthroid in his denunciation of the lack of standards in Armour. If he had done his research, as I have, he would have found that Synthroid, not Armour, has been sanctioned many times in the past year, and almost did not gain FDA approval due to lack of standardization.

Fortunately, I have another doctor to continue overseeing my effective thyroid treatment.

I'm just saying, just because a doctor has lots of initials after their name, it doesn't make them an expert. Even being good at one thing doesn't make them good at everything. You would think we would learn from Yale.

And NOT having initials does not immediately mean you don't know what you are doing. I don't have an opinion one way or another on Buhner. It seems the intelligent thing if someone wanted to experiment with his protocols, would be to consult with a knowledgeable herbalist.

Someone who has experience with the herb would know when to use it, and when not to.

--------------------
Sonoma County Lyme Support
[email protected]

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Carol in PA
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Well, I must say, I'm glad that I didn't google Buhner until AFTER I read his book.

AAACK! The guy is a freaking hippie!


Never the less, he is talented and is making a considerable contribution to the Lyme community with his book.

You may have a poor opinion of him, but don't let that stop you from considering the information that he presents.

Carol

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Lymied
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Because I am finding myself hanging out with a lot of 'hippies' lately and they seem to be healthier then my 'non-hippie' friends I have been quite open to what Buhner has to say [Wink]

I find his theories on the synergistic relationship that lyme and coinfections have quite interesting...I have to say, hippie or not his explanations of Babesia seem like the best I have read. Of course I haven't done all of my homework and maybe it all just sounds good...

His book gives me tremendous hope that there are others looking at lyme and tbis from a different angle. Maybe this isn't THE angle but I don't think that the cure for lyme is going to be solely a traditional one like a new antibiotic therapy...it is going to take tremendous creativity and smarts to figure it all out.

It is encouraging that someone is starting this process...just my ten cents...

--------------------
Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right. - Ezre Taft Benson

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pippy
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I read this guy's book on herbal protocols for lyme.
It's actually very very good!

He is clear about lyme being a hard disease to treat and is on our side of the lyme wars. He even says antibiotics are needed.

He also says that these herbs may be adjunctive treatment along with abx.
That is how I am using them...
He does list contraindications for all herbals.

He is professional and throrough...
This skeptic gives him 3 thumbs up...oops seeing triple again!

Just an opinion...hope it helps!

--------------------
pippy

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Gabriella7
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Since I'm a new Lymie but had it a long long time I ordered Buhner's book and learned a lot! It is still very confusing to sort out all the different remedies, antibiotics, homepathics, herbals, supplements, etc.

I have a LLMD who is an Integrative type of doctor so we are trying a lot of things. Tonight I'm in a tremendous amount of pain....maybe a herx.....I don't really know.
Today I got in a sauna and a hot whirlpool.

Maybe the bugs didn't like the heat! [dizzy]

Gabriella [confused]

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JimBoB
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Gabriella, YOU are RIGHT, they DON"T like the heat.

I don't think "I" have to tell you all, what "I" think of Buhner's book, right?

WHO CARE"s what a guy LOOKS like??? THAT is all superficial, to be sure. IT is what is INSIDE that counts, AND what IS inside, is our mind and heart. AND I am NOT talking about the literal heart. It IS our mind, our soul our whole life and demeanor and attitude that REALLY COUNTS!

WHAT does CV mean anyway? Use english please!
SO everyone can understand what you are saying!

I agree with Riversinger. Without herbs, I would have NO hope, IMO. YES, herbs are experimental. YES, also, that antibiotics are experimental.

Antibiotics alone just don't cut it, period. UNLESS of course you caught it within the first two weeks of contracting it. Maybe.

PLEASE people, IF you don't have something GOOD to say about someone who is ONLY TRYING TO HELP US, then don't say anything at all.

I have several degrees, and I know many others that do also. BUT degrees mean NOTHING UNLESS you are truly doing YOUR BEST and not just on the band wagon for the ride. AND MOST MD's are JUST on the band wagon.

BUHNER covers just about anything that NEEDS to be covered in his book HEALING LYME. Course he did NOT do it all by himself. He had a lot of help. Look at his references.

TO those of you who have NOT read it yet, and YOU have Lyme, I feel very, very sorry for you. YOUR LOSS to be sure. It is a fine, informational book that covers about all I could think of, (and also MOST LLMD's), on HOW to heal yourself of Lyme, responsibly.

HE uses many practitioners views and actual protocols in making up his own protocol. I am still alive, and PROBABLY doing as well or probably better than most of you out there who have used antibiotics, ONLY.

GIVE US A BREAK. We really don't NEED naysayers, and others who make fun of the truly brilliant out here.

Just MO, but I think it is very resonable and holds water.

Jim [Cool] [group hug]

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5dana8
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Hi
Per the topic of red root ..and the blood thinning properties of this herb

I get long heavy periods and wonder if this herb might make that worse.I don't even take asprin because of this concern.

Any woman have experiences with blood thinners -ie red root & heavier menses bledding?

--------------------
5dana8

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JimBoB
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By the way, I agree with you NELLY.

BUHNER IS eclectic. Very much so. I am eclectic. Dr. K is eclectic. THAT is the ONLY way to be. Especially with THIS disease that we are fighting. THOSE who are sticking to only antibiotics, definitely do not know WHAT they are doing. THEY are just following the crowd.

THOSE that work with antibiotics, herbs, vitamins, and many other types of medical attacks on the spirochetes are the only ones who are really WITH IT.

THAT is the ENLIGHTENED way. The ONLY way that really makes any sense. We have SEEN what LONGTIME antibiotic use has not only done to US as individuals; but also to the environment in general.

[Cool]

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JimBoB
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dana:

IF you are taking coagulants OR anticoagulants, do NOT take Red Root.

Both Buhner and the outfit that Nelly posted the URL of in her original post, agree that Red Root should NOT be used by those who have coaglulation disorders OR if using anti-coagulants.

However Buhner, takes it a step further in his tretise in stating on page 186 of his book:

"A number of human trials have occurred using the herb as a tincture extract (usually 10-15 ml per person). The trials focused on heavy bleeding, including excess menstruation and red root was found to be a powerful coagulant and hemostatic in all studies. A marked reduction of clotting time was noted."

AND he goes on with more, but YOU can buy the book IF you don't have it, to get the rest of the real scoop.

I will state here though, that he says there are NO side effects. BUt it is contraindicated in people using blood coagulants or anticoagulants and in pregnancy.

I am looking forward to it.

Jim
[hi]

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nellypointis
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> IF you are taking coagulants OR >anticoagulants, do NOT take Red Root.

Jim,

> AND he goes on with more, but YOU can buy the >book IF you don't have it, to get the rest of >the real scoop.

I know what Buhner says (I DID BUY the book), but what I can't decide is what he is basing this assertion on, as there HAVEN'T been lots of studies on Red Root and coagulation, just very, very anecdotal stuff and hardly anything at all. If you know of any, please let me know.

> Both Buhner and the outfit that Nelly posted >the URL of in her original post, agree that Red >Root should NOT be used by those who have >coaglulation disorders OR if using anti->coagulants.

Do you KNOW what it does EXACTLY,?I haven't been able to find this out, it just seems to me that Buhner and others just repeat "Red Root should not be used if you have coagulation problems" but we don't know WHY exactly. and as I said some seem to say the exact opposite.

He says it "stops heavy menstrual bleeding", he talks about speeding hemostasis but again he doesn't say HOW. And that's what I want to know.

Stuff like this is why I am finding Stephen Buhner "lightweight". I don't care about his CV (Curriculum Vitae), and being eclectic is a quality in my books. I don't like New Agers and their silly pseudo-philosophy though. They used to be absolutely tyranical, I heard too much crap from New Agers ("if you're sick it's because you want/need to be etc").

Nelly

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JimBoB
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Maybe you need to write Buhner directly, Nelly.

I have for some questions on things.

I am not concerned for myself on the menstruating thing, so really don't have the time to research it heavily.

Buhner does say though, that there have been a number of human trials using the herb as a tincture extract. The trials focused on HEAVY BLEEDING including EXCESS MENSTRUATION. MAYBE look in the back of this book under references, and check them out on the net or write them personally.

Let us know WHAT YOU come up with.

Jim [Cool]

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nellypointis
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimBoB:
>[qb] Maybe you need to write Buhner directly, >Nelly.

Jim,

I have written to him but he is not available for a few weeks.

I thought some people might know re Red Root since some people are already using it as per Buhner against Babesia

>I am not concerned for myself on the >menstruating thing, so really don't have the >time to research it heavily.

Jim, it is not so much the menstruating side of things that are of importance, it's the "stops bleeding" that I think needs to be looked into, whether it is menstrual bleeding or any other bleeding.

It might be of crucial importance to ALL of us, as having chronic infections/inflammation means we could ALL have coagulation problems.

Addressing excess coagulation or fibrinogen might make the difference btwn being able to expose the bugs to our immune system or not, and increasing coagulation might be dangerous for all of us, not just those with a specific, known problem with coagulation.

>Let us know WHAT YOU come up with.

Should I? YOU obviously do not WANT to know, especially if it has to do with [Roll Eyes] ...menstruation!

BTW, Cave, do you have references to that German E Commission Monographs?

Nelly

[ 05. February 2006, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: nellypointis ]

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JimBoB
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NELLY:
YOU are reading things INTO my posts that are NOT there.

I did NOT say I WASN'T interested. I JUST said I was not going to research it heavily because I don't have to be concerned with the menstruation thing. Certainly NOT for me, nor my wife as she is well past that.

I am ALWAYS curious though.

Jim. [Cool]

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JimBoB
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Nelly:
ALSO, I persoanlly do NOT have a coagulation PROBLEM. Never have had.

And even IF I do to a SMALL degree, I am not too concerned at this time in my life.

The benefits from Red Root far outweigh the very small side affects for MOST of us. WE do a lot of things to our bodies that are a LOT WORSE than taking Red Root, to be sure. Look HOW MANY take antibiotics even though we KNOW how very bad they are for us.

WHY?

Because we feel that the benefits at the time outweigh the risks.

I am on TWO (2) antibiotics right now, though I would RATHER NOT be on ANY abx.

Jim

[hi]

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JimBoB
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Cave 76:
I went to the URL you posted and this is HOW it ended:

The President's Commission on Dietary Supplement Labeling (DSC) made a recommendation to FDA to create a over the counter (OTC) drug advisory panel just for herbs. However, there has been no progress.


WHY am I NOT surprised that the President's Commission has made NO progress?

Jim. [Cool]

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nellypointis
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Cave,

Red Root is an american plant, not found in Europe, so not used here traditionally.

I think I shall drop the subject for the time being as nobody seems to really know. I hope Stephen Buhner gets back to me on this when he returns.

Nelly

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JimBoB
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Nelly:

I am imagining you have already read it, but I would like to reiterate that Buhner states that Red Root is a very strong coagulant. (therefore a good reason NOT to be taking it along with other coagulants).

ALSO, IT in itself is not used AGAINST Babesia, but rather as a Lymph sytem cleaner by clearing the Lymph system of dead cellular material. (When on Artemisinin).

It also has many other attributes also, which I imagine you have read.

IMO IF you are fairly normal, not considering LD, and NOT taking coagulants, then it should be relatively safe to take Red Root. I WILL.

I too did not know it was an American Only herb, used mainly by native Americans for years. There are many companies that will be happy to sell it to you and send it overseas to you.

Take care,
Jim.

[hi]

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