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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » How much heat can we take 105 degrees?

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Author Topic: How much heat can we take 105 degrees?
humanbeing
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So I read that spyroketes die at temps of 105 to 106 degrees.

Does anyone know how much heat us Humans can take before we die? Anyone ever try getting body up to this temp with any luck?

Just wondering... [confused]

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We are spiritual beings on a human journey...

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Posts: 906 | From CT | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
johnlyme1
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I found that same info many months ago - While I was on Ceftin I took a couple of very hot baths. Got my body temp in the tub over 101. Boy did I have a die off. two days later felt very good. I don't recomend this for the pyhsically weak at all.
Posts: 582 | From milwaukee wi | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
5dana8
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Just watch out to not over due high temps in the bath.

If the bath is too hot people have been known to pass out and drown. [dizzy]

Here are two links on the discussion on hot baths:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

* Then type this in the search box "Pub Med"..& the blank box next to it type in: "Antibiotics and increased temperature against Borrelia burgdorferi in vitro"

Sorry could get the whole address for this one .

The second thread,I found very helpful, in that,in purhaps you don't have to go to 105 but only a slight raise in a few points can make a difference.
http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=038611

[ 06. February 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: 5dana8 ]

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5dana8

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humanbeing
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Thanks for the feedback,
Wow Dana great link! I'm sure most things I asked have been exhauseted before I got here but I appreciate your patience and taking the time to post the "back issues".

So here is a question...has anyone come down with or given themselves a curable bug that produces fever-then don't treat the fever for a few days?

After seeing pictures of those nasty cysts that are probably embeded in my brain, I don't think they will ever go away. They are almost too smart for us.

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duramater
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quote:
Originally posted by humanbeing:
So here is a question...has anyone come down with or given themselves a curable bug that produces fever-then don't treat the fever for a few days?

I had a bad viral illness at the beginning of the year. My temp was between 102-103.8 for two solid days. I took no tylenol or other fever reducers. It didn't do bupkiss for the Bb or babs. I just felt like crapola, worse than usual, for several days. I also had an increase in my heart symptoms since then (I'm now on TWO heart meds). Alas, my data do not support the hypothesis that high temps kill Bb bugs nor do they support the hypothesis that people with Bb/TBI's don't get colds/flus/viral infections.
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micul
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This is from another site:

http://www.iptmd.com/lyme_disease.htm

"Heat (Hyperthermia) and The Lyme disease Bb
It is well known that the spirochetes of Lyme disease is heat sensitive and will die on exposure to temperatures of 39 C for 5 hours, 40 C for 3 hours, and 2 hours at 41 C. The Nobel Prize was awarded in 1927 to an Austrian physician, Julius Wagner-Jauregg, who successfully treated tertiary syphilis, caused by another spirochete, a brother of Lyme spirochete, (Treponema pallidum, the spirochete that causes Syphilis) with Malarial parasite to induce high fevers to kill the organism hiding deep in the brain.

Attempts to treat Lyme disease with Malaria have been proposed by physicians and even tried by patients (Heimlich HJ, Should we try malariotherapy for Lyme disease? New Engl J Med 1990 Apr 26; 322(17): 1234-1235). This approach has not been accepted. In addition to ethical challenges, malaria itself can be fatal. While medical experts concur that heat is effective against Lyme disease, there is also a consensus that artificially induced fevers and other heating methods such as extra-corporeal whole body hyperthermia and other methods may be inadequate and can be deadly dangerous (life threatening) if extra corporeal method whole body hyperthermia is used. External inter cellular hyperthermia methods attempt to heat infected cells and Bb from the "outside-in" may not adequately heat the deep targets in the body (e.g. bone marrow, brain, big tendons, large joints etc.) and the deep part of the many cells in the organ where the Bb is hiding. That is why we have developed both intra and extra cellular hyperthermia method to kill the hiding Lyme disease organisms (as well as cancers, nano bacteria and mycoplasma)."

[ 07. February 2006, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: micul ]

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5dana8
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Hey Humanbeing

For what its worth here are the three reasons why I do hot epbson baths.:(I am too fogged in right now to give you the techy information just my personal experiences)

1- I think the heat allows for better abx penetration.

2-The ketes thrive in a cold environment...I often wonder if this is some how related to the fact that alot of lyme patients have cold body temps? Or could it be just a result of the colateral damage?

There is some die off action going on because I often herx after a hot bath. Maybe not enough to get me in remmission,but enough to perhaps get me a little better.

As long as I keep my electrolights up and stay hydrated,personaly I don't think it can hurt.

3- I use the hot baths to detox. It takes alot to make me sweat. And I think in sweating it can help eliminate toxins.

Hot bathas are a hotly debated topic and don't want to steer you wrong.Just want to share what has helped me.

But be careful not to get temped to go too hot! This has backfired on me more than once to learn this. [Eek!]

Take care
And don't give up.
You will get better
It just may be a longer haul.

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5dana8

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humanbeing
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Thanks for feedback, sounds like there is mixed reviews on the subject

Dura wrote:"I had a bad viral illness at the beginning of the year. My temp was between 102-103.8 for two solid days. I took no tylenol or other fever reducers. It didn't do bupkiss for the Bb or babs."

So this scares me. Those bugger should have died for goddsakes.

Dana, thanks. I take baths now instead of showers not too hot since it nauseates me. If nothing else the heat calms my frazzled nerves.

I also wrap myself in my heating blanket before I go to bed--while I watch Everybody Loves Raymond... then when I am good an warm, I turn it off and go to sleep.

It is cold here in CT.

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oxygenbabe
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No, it doesn't die at 102 or 103 fever. Many strains will die at 105. some might need 106. If you can get a 105 degree fever and do abx with it and sustain the fever for a while, you might kill it. I wrote about a guy who runs a college of ayurvedic medicine. Years ago he was graduating from chiropractic, went hiking, got bit by a tick and got bad lyme. It was diagnosed as a connective tissue autoimmune disorder. He was in such pain he couldn't have a bedsheet on him. Figured he was ruined for life. THey wanted to put him in the hospital on experimental meds. Instead he went to an energy healer who gave him a few sessions and he began to run a fever as high as 105. He let it run for 3 weeks. At the end of that 3 weeks he was much better. However he was not cured imo as he still had chronic fatigue episodes and his bakc would go out, for years. and years. Finally ayurvedic medicine cured him over time and now he's well and active. Anyway, it needs 40 degrees centigrade to die. Otherwise it'll be just fine.
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Isilme
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I don't know about anyone else but I just can't take heat at all. Even wearing too many layers of clothes or taking a hot shower will make my nerve pain, itching and nausea flare up.

I like cold and use ice packs a lot. A dip in a cold pool helps a lot too. I never thought it was a Lyme problem. I have nerve problems and just attributed it to that.

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"Had I not known I was dead already, I would have mourned my loss of life."

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diana
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oxygenbabe,

Do you know what type of treatments were used by the Ayurveydic practioner?

Diana

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5dana8
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Isilme
I know the cold helps with your nerve pain but be careful.

I went to a LLD who told me once that the ice packs and cold water was the worse thing I could do for my lyme.At the time I was Ice packing for neck pain.

Because the ketes thrive in a cold environment.

take care

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5dana8

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humanbeing
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Ismle,
Yes to Dana's comments. I have nerve pain too. Before dgnsd, I also hated heat my body was always burning and all I wanted was to cool it. (no fever of course).

Several times before major neuropathic attacks (I have had 4), I used frozen peas on my neck and shoulders. Little did I know that this was triggering the hellish attack that felt like electrocution of my entire body.

Now I use heat for my neck. Doesn't give the local relief that the peas did but no more neuropathic attacks...thank god and knock on wood.

Best

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We are spiritual beings on a human journey...

www.ruggierogallery.com

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Isilme
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Thanks 5dana8 and humanbeing for the advice.

I was being treated by a chiropractor (for a completely siezed-up back/neck/shoulders....hmmm from Lyme??) and he would tell me "ice, ice, ice!". He said it was my spine compressing many nerves and the nerves getting inflammed and "hot" as he'd call it. Hence, I needed to ice often.

Well the chiro didn't help much. Then I was told I have TOS and that I need to use ice for the burning pain in my left side. Heat really does make it all worse. I just can't get myself to apply heat to any part of me! [Eek!]

I also have some very irritating itchy rash on my legs, chest and arms and it gets very hot and then requires ice to stop the burning and itching. That is really annoying!

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~Kelly

"Had I not known I was dead already, I would have mourned my loss of life."

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humanbeing
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One thing that may help is neurontin. This is prescribed for trigeminal neuralgia and other nerve pain (like after shingles--did anyone check if you had shingles--causes a very ichy rash too?).

You can never know what is helping or hurting but I know neurontin at 300mg didn't hurt anyway.

Nerve pain is the worst but don't do anything that hurts any more than you do. Take it moment by moment as it will pass.
Best

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We are spiritual beings on a human journey...

www.ruggierogallery.com

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farah
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Heat and hot baths don't cure Lyme on their own, but they were a very important part of my personal recovery.

I think that heat really helps to kill the keets that are superficial in the body, and can improve circulation so that other antibacterial substances can kill the keets deeper in the body.

You can't get yourself hot enough to kill the keets deep in the body.

I used an infrared heat lamp daily for a year, and I took very hot baths with essential oils in them for a year. I also used saunas when I had the opportunity. When I was healthier I even attended a sweatlodge, which triggered a brain herx.

I had a couple of bouts of fever with a bad flu strain, and I think it forced a lot of the bacteria that was hiding in cysts out into circulation, allowing other antibacterials and my immune system to kill it more effectively.

But I think having any illness on top of Lyme is just not safe, and it is best to keep yourself as healthy as possible and avoid getting anything extra. Lymies have enough to deal with.

I think getting regularly overheated can be helpful, as long as you are careful about it. I don't recommend it for people who have heart symptoms from Lyme.

Farah

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Mo
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My daughter had a fever of over 105 summer before last, lasted one night, and she has not stuttered (her classic neuro-symptom with Lyme) since then.

[confused]

I had switched to immune supportive protocols with her then, she was off abx...after two years on different combinations..she was OK for a while, then the stuttering came back and the insomnia...then the fever hit hard and fast, and no other symptoms with it but high fever, body pain, and dilusion...
I stayed up all night with her using only tepid water when it got at the highest points, and giving warm liquids orally. If the 105 had lasted more than the night I was struggling with whether to give Tylenol or not. I did not. By morning it was about 103.5 and went down from there.
My intent was to let the fever work and I welcomed it at that time and had profound faith in it, hard to describe but I had been working a while on strenghtening her immune system and studied fever...and avoided the fear of it. We are led to believe fever is dangerous, when it is our body's strongest immune reaction..

Perhaps her age and metabolism lent a hand in all of this. She was/is also on strict immune supportive alkaline diet.

~~ and she has not stuttered since the day after having the fever ..now a year and half.
She has no other Lyme symptoms since then, either, was very sick with it as a baby.

There's something to it, but I don't think anyone has an effective way to use heat.

I don't believe external heat in order to raise body temp that high is safe or effective, and I believe a fever that would kill Lyme must come from a genuine internal immune reaction.

I would think the best shot at doing it would be working with Ayurveda or other intensive and/or ancient detox/immune modulating protocol over time.

I think if you are doing intensive
immuno-therapies abx will only work against them.
Abx tells the immune system it doesn't have to work.

And there are so many factors in each case it certainly would not be a simple protocol of focus. It would have to be taylored to your own complex terrain. You may well have other obstacles to clear, ect, ect...

Perhaps the moon and the stars were all in alignment with what we were doing with her and where her system and the disease were at at that precise time. I can't explain how or why it happened, or how anyone could resreate it, just thought it pertained to this discussion.

Mo

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burnbitter
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" Instead he went to an energy healer who gave him a few sessions and he began to run a fever as high as 105. He let it run for 3 weeks. At the end of that 3 weeks he was much better. "

About 5 years ago I got what we think was the cold sore virus. I had a 105 fever for two weeks. 105 is really dangerous. You can die easily at this temperature. Also I had a "fibromyalgia" flare about a month after that. I didn't know I had lyme at the time, but I would suggest a fever alone won't kill it. And also it's putting your body at great risk.
(also I never have actually gotten cold sores so I'm not positive that's what it was from, but my gums swoll up and there was the high fever and thats what the doctor thought it was)

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TheCrimeOfLyme
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I had a fever of 102.0- 102.5 for 3 days straight and then it varied from then on out for a few days.

I was 90 percent *feeling better* before this happened ( i had the flu)

ALl it did for me was break open alot of cysts or something because I have been SICK ever since and now 70 percent.. some days not even 50 percent .. and that was two months ago.

I DO think some fo the lyme died, some opened up from cysts, whatever and I just wasnt prepared to fight ( immune system sucks, wasnt on antibiotics, etc)

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