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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » New research..Must Read !

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Author Topic: New research..Must Read !
6t5frlane
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CK out Townsendletter.com/FebMar2006/lyme0206.htm...technical but a MUST read
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welcome
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Up....with the important part pasted below.

[Big Grin] Pq? Marnie? [Big Grin]

"Action of Bb Produced Toxin.

The action of botulinum (as well as the toxin from the Lyme spirochete) is to prevent, through its action as a proteolytic enzyme, the release of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Nerve endings may be associated with other nerves or muscles (the neuromuscular junction).

Dietary Supplements in Lyme Disease.

One of the known actions of the Lyme spirochete toxin is to diminish the release and availability of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, a simple organic compound (see above for chemical structure). This substance is biosynthesized by the body as required in nerve activation and transmission. Supplementation by the precursors of acetylcholine synthesis would be of value to Lyme patients since they have a deficiency of this substance. (See Listing 1.)

Listing 1: Dietary Supplements Increasing Acetylcholine Synthesis Improving Neurologic Function.

* Phosphatidylcholine (Lecithin)Acetyl-L-Carnitine
* Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid)
* Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine)
* Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid)
* Lysine (Amino Acid)
* S-Adenosylmethionine (SAM) (Sulfur-bound Adenosyl Methionine)

If the inhibition of acetylcholine release were total, Lyme patients and those suffering from food poisoning would not be able to move; they would be completely paralyzed. Since the blockage is only partial, any increase in the amount of available neurotransmitter would benefit anyone experiencing neurotransmitter blockage. For this reason, dietary supplements increasing the amount of available acetylcholine have been shown to benefit Lyme patients.

Acetylcholine Formation.

Phopsphatidylcholine is a constituent of lecithin, a well-known dietary supplement. Acetylcholine is simply choline to which an acetyl group (CH3CO-) has been attached. Lecithin is the source of choline, and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC) is the source of the acetyl group. Carnitine is synthesized by the body and requires several factors, including the amino acid lysine and vitamin C (ascorbic acid). The supplement known as SAM (S-adenosylmethionine) supplies methyl groups (CH3-) to lysine, forming trimethyllysine. This compound is further processed, requiring additional vitamin C, resulting in carnitine that supplies the necessary acetyl group."

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SForsgren
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I agree this is interesting. My LLMD has commented in the past about Bismuth for Lyme.

They specifically mention the product Bismacine. Has anyone taken that?

Also interesting that they suggest Viagra may be a treatment for Lyme disease. Anyone here tried it?

Also interesting to see the Lyme inhibitors they discuss:

Listing 4: Inhibitors of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) and its Toxin

Glycyrrhizic Acid (Licorice Root) Biorizin
Glutamylglutamate (Glu-Glu Dipeptide)
Nitrous Oxide (NO) (Arginine Stimulates Production)
Bismacine
Chromocine
Silver Ion

One can generally increase NO with arginine which they also suggest is useful for Lyme supression.

I am also VERY excited to see this journal discuss the link to MS and various other diseases. This kind of information is known but not discussed enough.

Excellent information.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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klutzo
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I take Pepto Bismol at bedtime one week per month to kill Bb in my gut. It really helps keep gut symptoms to a minimum. I take it during my monthly herx week, since I have diarrhea then anyway, and it helps with that too.
I read about an LLMD in Kansas who used Bismacine IV, and it put one woman on dialysis and a man into a coma. He is now fighting to try to keep from having his MD license revoked.
I think the studies being done in Mexico use Bismacine by IM only.
I also take Lecithin with B Complex and Mg several times per day.
I've not tried the silver, since I am getting good results with the Cowden Protocol (Samento alternating with Cumanda).
Klutzo

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5dana8
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This sounds promising.

I did the zantac /pepto thing. I think it helped .

But when I go back on abx the gi returns.

Haven't tryed the only supps or the viagra. I sure could use some help in that department as well as so many others that have responded to the disfuncion postd.

Re: the viagra. I do worry some what about the heart issues with this drug,since I have had PVC's

But very interesting about the other supps.

I firmly believe in my heart of hearts that getting rid of toxins made by herxing is key to possibly making more ground.

thanks welcome & 6t5frlan for posting this [Smile]

--------------------
5dana8

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trails
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Dr B's guidelines suggest taking Acetyl-LCarnitine for the nuero aspects of lyme too.

His guidelines suggest many other of the same vitamins as above.

This is Good news then and reinforces his treatment protocols.

thanks for posting!

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5dana8
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Hey trails

I'm a big space out today . I have been taking the acetyL-carnitine on my week off and think it does help.

There is a supp called juvanon that has alot of these ingredients in it but wasn't able to swallow the big pills. My aunt swears its given her more energy.

I am definitly going to re-read dr. B's supp suggestions. [Smile]

--------------------
5dana8

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SForsgren
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To clarify, I was being somewhat humorous about the Viagra. Heart condition or not - I don't know that there is enough evidence to consider using it for LD.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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trails
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okay...so I am trying to wrap my brain around some this..help me guys....

are they saying that Lecethin can be taken as a form of ACL that would be good to combat neuro involved Lyme?

And

IS L-lysine (taken for cold sore suppression)the same as the Lysine they are talking about?

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5dana8
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Hey Trails me too. Its hard to take it all in.

But thanks for mentioning the lysine.
way back in 87, they thought I had CFIDS.

I couldn't remember the supp I was taking at the time I went into remmission . Could have been the lyme decided to go dormant possibly the lysine.

I know it doesn't make much sence ,since lyme is bacterial, but you never know.

Am going to research sites on CFIDS and see if I can find out the dosage again.
Thanks for tripping my memory.

take care
dana

--------------------
5dana8

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5dana8
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hopefully up for more feedback. [Smile]

--------------------
5dana8

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Marnie
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Wow...interesting...

Cholera also takes the cholesterol pathway too.

Restore the balance. Other nutrients dive too...and MUST be restored too (ESP. Mg...and B6...for starters)

Acetylcholine, ATP, Rocephin, melatonin (Western Fence Lizard research), warfarin, Hypericinin (St. John's Wort), AZT (for HIV),MAP, thiamine (is B1)...and so on...

all contain H16 in their formulas.

Hydrogen is the most powerful anti-oxidant. We are making hydrogen every split second every day of our lives. If not enough hydrogen (too acidic) = way too many "free radicals" ie. oxidative stress. Vitamin E helps release hydrogen (need that link?). We know vit.E and A take a dive in lyme...along with Mg, etc.

Makes sense...body is trying to raise the pH. Way too toxic = too acidic.

Why does it take 16 and not any other number?

RE: Bismuth (2 Pepto Bismol tablets) taken at bedtime WITH ZANTAC (to decrease stomach acids) for one week only seems to help get Bb out of the gut.

However, I do not know the impact on the "good guys"...the beneficial bacteria, so it may be CRITICAL that you are restoring them...with a full glass of water one hour before meals.

Fatty liver probs? Choline to help ;-) The liver is our major "detox" organ and maybe taking a huge hit and not functioning as it should/could? (The liver stores Mg, B6, glycogen (day's worth), etc.).

Congested liver -> bile production interupted ->
gall bladder probs? Bile helps remove heavy metals. Bile is formed when cholesterol is broken down. (Cholesterol made, broken down, made...)

Cholesterol is needed for the myelin sheath - the "insulation" around our nerves.

LDL = lousy cholesterol. As I understand...more fat than protein, but both.

HDL = good cholesterol. More proteins than fat,but both.

Looks like need (a form of) phosphorus, choline, Mg, thiamine (B1) and B6 (for CoQ10 reasons)...modify Valletta's patent. Timing is critical.

Acetylcholine is needed for REM (rapid eye movement) sleep - which is when we make our proteins...including enzymes, hormones, antibodies...

Acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter...throw one off and the others are impacted.

Acetylcholine, well...

"Coronary flow increases with increasing doses of Ach" (Ach = acetylcholine)PMID: 9093532

More blood flow...more oxygen delivered...

Thick blood (from Mg dropping)-> slowed down blood flow...warfarin/richtsregulat to help out...

The complete picture is coming into view...slowly... with our JOINT EFFORT!

Bb locks onto a heparin receptor. This may trigger the hypercoagulation. (Mg can help dissolve fibrin...as can other things.) This maybe the cloaking mechanism...making it harder to "reach".

Bb is after our choline (a B vitamin). All gram neg. pathogens are missing acids and suck them from us. Different gram neg. bacteria need different acids (MS might be caused by one that loves folic acid, it has been speculated).

Bb heads for the endothelial cells (line the blood vessels and damages them - via its PKC inhibitor = cell destruction).

Bb wants to locate there because it is right next door to the connective tissue...3 kinds of connective tissue...one of which is fat...where it can suck away at choline...

Mg levels drop rapidly for numerous reasons...all protective. But the body will only let Mg drop just so far (nec. for heart relaxation, "thinking", detox, etc.) and then Ca will try to go into the cells...damaging the thyroid. This Ca influx (not esp. healthy) triggers TNF alpha which then triggers angiotensin II. It is believed angiotensin II can trigger diabetes.

Ca and K rise at first, but way down the line...they too drop.

If we look at drugs...we can see where they fit into the picture (Mg drops, Ca rises, TNF alpha rises, angiotensin II rises)...like the "calcium channel blockers" or the drugs to block TNF alpha or the drugs to block angiotensin II. The prob. with the drugs is that they don't get to the ROOT of the situation. Humira, for example...to block TNF alpha...side effect is cancer...why? Well our NK cells (natural killer cells to destroy cancer) need BOTH Mg and Ca along the way in order to work.

It doesn't make SENSE...go back to the beginning and restore Mg levels and stop the spiral at the outset.


Keep Bb out in the "open". Supply the nutrients to do so as well as the nutrients to make HEALTHY antibodies (Mg and Ca are needed to do this). Enough nutrients for us to make acetylcholine and antibodies = protection for us and destruction for Bb.

Hydrogen (our pH - potential of hydrogen) INactivates PFK...Bb is dependent on this enzyme (PFK). Citrates, Mg-ATP, H2O2, etc. also INactivate this pathway...but Mg also INactivates HMG CoA reductase, shutting down the cholesterol pathway at the starting point (in the liver).

More than one way exists...ozone/farinfrared saunas release NO...dilate blood vessels (the understanding of NO led to the development of Viagra). Tricky though 'cause too much dilation (if the vessels are damaged) can -> problems...esp. the very sensitive eyes (hence the sudden blindness attributed to Viagra)...

Healing begins in the gut...then restore the missing nutrients.

Ancora Imparo.

P.S. Scott,watch out for "glutamate" (and "aspartate")...already a problem. NO stimulates acetylcholine release (need documentation?) Research Bruce Ames - Juvenon (nice guy...and really smart!) in depth...

"Juvenon's proprietary technology was developed by a team of world-class scientists at the University of California, Berkeley, led by Bruce Ames, Ph.D., winner of the U.S. National Science Prize and other international honors."


Start here :

A Role for Supplements in Optimizing Health: The Metabolic Tune-Up

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14989256&dopt=Citation

It's about balance...the minerals/glycogen reacting WITH the acids (all of them...the vits as well as the amino acids...protein building blocks) -> hydrogen to maintain our pH.

[ 19. February 2006, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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5dana8
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Thanks Marnie

Great post!!!!!! [bow]

--------------------
5dana8

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5dana8
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RE: Junvenon:

Here is the webb page for Juvenon:

http://www.juvenon.com

Click on product at the top to get details

Other than the
*acety-L-Carnitine
*Biotin
*ALA & a little clacium

Not seeing anything special as I think you can but these seperate & cheaper than they sell.

I really don't like some of the added ingredents
listed in the bottom paragraph!

--------------------
5dana8

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trails
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Marnie,

Would be interested in your opinon on Plaquenil ( hydroxychloroquine) keeping the body (cells)more Alkeline. And therfore better for Bb to be killed by ABX? This publication is one of only 2 that I have found that are backing this theory.

Thanks,
Trails

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Marnie
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I have strong feelings about DMARDS.

Cause I have SEEN what some of them do/do not do.

AIDs dx? Sis...now.

Selenium to help out? I know...gotta get TNF alpha down...somewhat.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/selenium.asp

Also consider the other anti-oxidants...all of them (A,C,E) AND the antioxidant enzymes..."Google" SOD antioxidant enzymes.

IF only Li wasn't so difficult to manage and didn't come with such a horrendous "side effect"...

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trails
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Was that a reply to my question? or to something else?
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Marnie
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http://www.arthritis.org/conditions/DrugGuide/about_dmards.asp
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trails
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Okay but what I was wondering about was Plaquenil's ability to riase Ph level--make cells more Alkiline.

THIS is why it is being used as a Lyme treatment, it is an OFF LABEL use of the drug.

Do you have experience/ opinions about this?

B/c I know that you know much more about Ph and Lyme than I ever will.

"If, though, the Lyme borreliae reside in intracellular vesicles that are acidic, the macrolides' activity would be sharply decreased at the lower pH. This is in contrast to the tetracyclines, which are active at acid pH; even so, the activity of doxycycline was shown to be further increased by increasing the pH. "

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Marnie
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I have become very Rx-shy. ALL of them.

Never in a million years would I have ever thought I would be saying that...coming from a med. background.

Read from those who have "been there":

http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=9768&name=PLAQUENIL

Pro and con.


Now I see the safety in nutrition if at ALL possible.

I think this is what the Romanians found when they combined the abx while restoring a "significant" Mg deficiency at the same time. That's what it looks like (lots of hydrogen).

Once again...lots of acids + little mineral/glycogen -> hydrogen. Lots needed...continuously. Then gotta get it INTO the cells.

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trails
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Thaks marnie---nice link--never saw that before.

I guess I am a guinea pig. I am not on the high doses that most of the CON people were on and I am not expected to be on this for more than a few months....so hopefully will sidestep those med. pitfalls!

Cheers,
Trails

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BJG
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Hi,

Thanks Marnie for your Bb knowledge.

I take Apple Cider Suppliments.

My last blood work-up showed that my ph was high.

The LLMD was surprised because most with Bb have high acid.

I may be wrong, but the only thing that I can think of, that has reduced acid, is the Apple Cider pills.

I continue to take large dosages of Mg due to twitching and detoxing. [Thank you for that}

If you were to make a list of suppliments, other than MG what would you take?

My objective is to reduce the suppliments that I take.
Everytime I turn around there is a NEW idea, example, the Townsend letter.

I want to make sure I take in the most important suppliment and the correct balance for each.

My main symptom is skin burning-all ov [woohoo] er the body.

I am Rifing

Thank you.
You are welcome to email me.
[email protected]

Peace,
BJG

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mjo
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When we did ph saliva testing in a group of Lymies (most on abx) I was the only one who was alkaline, and I was very alkaline. I eat tons of sugar/carbs so this should make me more acidic, right? I know, bad for Lyme, yeast, but no problems there and I am one of the few Lymies who has rarely had any pain. If and when I do have pain it's VERY brief, lasting only seconds or minutes. Kept ph testing and saliva was alkaline for weeks on end. Could a natural alkalinity have implications for less pain, less arthitic symptoms?

What's the best way to restore A? Can't it be toxic?

Why doesn't anyone ever say their LLMD gives them Carnitor? L-carnitine by injection? (Supposed to be the best way to get it.)

I drink helpful organic apple cider vinegar now every day but did not when testing ph. I think this helps prevent yeast problems.

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5dana8
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Hey B

Other than the mag..
You might want to look into garlic supps. There was a big thread on it recently. I think it is very helpful in many ways.

http://www.gaiaresearch.co.za/garlic.html

I like acid free Vit C powder-also
niacin
B6
super green food
whey protien powder.
COQ10


take care

[ 24. February 2006, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: 5dana8 ]

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5dana8

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Marnie
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Glycogen AND minerals are alkaline (positive charge).

The acids have a neg. charge.

Normally it takes a LOT of acids to react with a little glycogen/mineral to make hydrogen...to maintain a tightly controlled pH level (the kidneys do this job).

pH = potential of hydrogen.

Then to carry hydrogen INTO the cells...CoQ10 (which we make when we...exercise...provided we have the nutrients to make it...which start with B6...then Mg...)In the news this morning...CoQ10 in large doses to help...Parkinson's (!) OR Minocycline (acidic). Dopamine making cells are pooped out...overworked.

When one neurotransmitter takes a hit...the others kick in to help out. In lyme, it appears acetylcholine is impacted since Bb is hungry for our choline.

CoQ10 is an ENZYME. It is avail. OTC and contains either soybean or rice bran oil which in turn contain Mg and B vits....now we have a way to carry the nutrients right into the cells to begin the healing process. Unfortunately, CoQ10 is not cheap. To figure out doses and timing..."Google" the words: CoQ10 cancer. It has been used to fight that disease.

We know the minerals sort of compete with one another...Ca-Mg, K-Na. It appears the acids do too. Taking one acid might lower another less "desirable" one.

Proteins and fats are acidic. Cholesterol is protein + fat. Hormones, enzymes, antibodies...these are acidic. All proteins need Mg somewhere along the line in order to be made.
(mdschoice website re: the function of Mg).

When you eat sugar (alkaline, positive charge), the body counters by spiking insulin (acidic, negative charge). Complex carbs do not cause insulin SPIKES. It is the spikes that aren't good.

Our fruits and veggies are already "electromagnetically" balanced with healthy nutrients (natural sugars/minerals + vitamins). Think of them as teeny hydrogen "bombs". Now all we have to do (ug) is exercise.

Truth to: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away."

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5dana8
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Was wondering if any one knows if apple cider vinegar tabs really do make your body less acidic? Curious because I thought vinegar is acidic.

Vinegars I have read are a no no in the yeast department.

Is it hard on the stomach?

Does anyone use the apple cider vinegar tabs and what are your experiences?

After 3 years I am burned out on the plaquinel.

Thanks

--------------------
5dana8

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char
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I have heard that the B's can interfere with sleep...Anyone?

Also has anyone found a child-frienly B vitamin?

I have tried different ones but they are too "big" (swallowing problems here"

And apparently even worse they stink and smell bad.

I do not notice a smell myself, but believe them

Char

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5dana8
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Hey Char

on the CFIDS site it suggests taking b6 and mag glycinate for good sleep at bedime.

I did try this one time only. And it did seem to help. It is conflicting info because I thought the b's where for energy? but maybe just the b12.

But my CS tea called tension tamer has b in it.

the site is

http://www.immunesupport.com/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-treatment.cfm

--------------------
5dana8

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Getting Better
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Yes, I was treated on this protocol and have taken IV bismacine and chromacine. I was treated in hospital in Mexico. Although treatment for 2-3 weeks had "cured" all 75 of the patients seen there, I had convulsive like responses to something, perhaps these compounds, and no longer felt safe and left tx after 10 days. My LLMD, who encouraged this alternative tx, saw me the same day I left and said I had bacterimia from the PICC line. I left hospital with the worst secondary respiratory infection I have ever had. Looking back, perhaps the reaction was a series of massive herx's, but I don't think so. Obviously, I still have Lyme and am sicker than ever.

I can say more privately if anyone is interested.

--------------------
Jeff

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seibertneurolyme
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Jeff M,

I am curious as to what previous Lyme treatment you had had prior to the Mexico trip?

The reason I am asking is because hubby has been on 2 different IV antibiotics -- Rocephin about 3 years ago and Primaxin a month ago.

Usually during the IV or within 30 - 60 minutes of disconnecting I would have to give him IV Ativan for his seizure-like episodes. These have been daily occurrances for over 3 years now, but are definitely exacerbated by any type of Lyme treatment including herbs and oral colloidal silver (Argentyn 23).

It could have simply been a Herxheimer response.

I know that the bismacine is a bismuth compound or derivative, but do you know anything about the chromocine?

Of course the article talked about nitrous oxide being used in the past as an anesthetic. This could be toxic -- hubby's brother had a former dentist who committed suicide with nitrous oxide (laughing gas).

Anything that can kill a bacteria or virus could probably be classified as a poison if it was taken in a high enough dose -- not a very comforting thought.

Bea Seibert

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candle
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hi my name is whitney and im 14 ive had lyme for 7 or more years i have every symptom imaginable and more burning,aching in fingers and every joint,i black out ,pass out,have hallusinations,partial seizure like movement,and im now think im losing my sight,i hear voises ,my face swells in the morning like crazy and more but the wierd thing is i was just diagnosed 3 months ago. people called me a hypocondreact wich is practicly crazy i had a horse accident and broke my leg when i was 8 and my hip slipped when i was 10 then i had a tumor removed when i was 12 ,my tonsils and adnoids taken out and a cyst when 12 and MY GALLBLADDER WHEN 14! doctors have torchered me in the past i know they where trying to help but they wound pull scabbs of my eardrums and becuase of swelling i can't even touch my ears i just want to know if theres any one like me and understands.
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Lymetoo
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Hi Candle! Could you post this again in a separate thread so it doesn't get lost in this other discussion?

We'd be happy to help you. Just click on "Post New Topic" at the top OR the bottom of this screen.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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candle
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i wrote on post new topic but i mestup and i think it deleted sorry? i guess i need practice [Big Grin]
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BJG
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quote:
Originally posted by candle:
hi my name is whitney and im 14 ive had lyme for 7 or more years i have every symptom imaginable and more burning,aching in fingers and every joint,i black out ,pass out,have hallusinations,partial seizure like movement,and im now think im losing my sight,i hear voises ,my face swells in the morning like crazy and more but the wierd thing is i was just diagnosed 3 months ago. people called me a hypocondreact wich is practicly crazy i had a horse accident and broke my leg when i was 8 and my hip slipped when i was 10 then i had a tumor removed when i was 12 ,my tonsils and adnoids taken out and a cyst when 12 and MY GALLBLADDER WHEN 14! doctors have torchered me in the past i know they where trying to help but they wound pull scabbs of my eardrums and becuase of swelling i can't even touch my ears i just want to know if theres any one like me and understands.


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BJG
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Hi,
My goodness it sounds as tho life has kicked you around. [dizzy]

We will help you here.

Do you dee a LLMD?

are you on ABX?
Supplements?

Give us more info-

I am praying that this site offers you help and hope.

Peace,
BJG

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seibertneurolyme
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BJG,

Not sure if you noticed, but the post by Candle was originally dated April 2, 2006 -- over 2 years ago.

Hope this person got help, but doubt if they are still reading if they did not.

Bea Seibert

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bettyg
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6'5 please edit your subject line and show 2-17-06 on there since folks are finding this 2 YEARS later and posting... thx.


click paper/pencil to open up subject line and add date! click edit send; done. [Smile] [group hug]

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6t5frlane
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I did not re post this ?????
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NanaDubo
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I would like to get back to the topic of the supplements. I found

the whole thing a little confusing. Surprised? I read somewhere

not to take CoQ10 while on Mepron. Anyone else heard this?

Also, if someone could put it in a sentence or two - what was the

original post suggesting we try taking. Sorry - bad day.

NanaDubo

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NanaDubo
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totally lost now [confused]

Don't know how I missed the date on that.


NanaDubo

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