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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » CATSS, CLAW, SAMENTO WARNING!

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Author Topic: CATSS, CLAW, SAMENTO WARNING!
Healing in Santa Cruz
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Hey everyone. Lots of negative talk and info on Cats claw,Samento. New to computers,so don't know how to send it here. Its on lymestrategies. Scary. I've been taking it for 16 mo. I think alot of U are using it. Scary side effects that look like lyme. Feedback would be appreciated

if u read it. Blessings Joyce

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klutzo
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Hi,
I've been taking Samento for almost 3 years. It is the only thing that has helped me. It gives me energy, improves my mood, and after each herx, I have several really good days, when I can drive a car again, a really big deal for me!

I will go to Lyme Strategies, if I can guess the URL correctly, and read about it though....you have now made me curious.

You would have to copy and paste to put the info on here. I will do it myself if I can find it.
Klutzo

P.S. I just tried every possible URL I could think of to find Lyme Strategies and came up empty. Could you please provide the URL??? Thanks.

PPSS. I found it by Googling and pasted the entire thread below. Quinolones are the only ABX I don't have trouble with, but for someone who has had trouble with them, I agree they should watch out. I did read somewhere that the compounds are not really all that similar, but can't remember where I read it, sorry.

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klutzo
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Hi Joyce
I too have been taking the samento for over a year and have made great
improvement with it. You have to weigh up the pros and cons, I have
tried to absorb some of the info re quinolone and yes the herx effects
are the same as these symptoms but I can only assume that my vast
improvement is worth me still continuing but like you I take a break
every now and then from it which you should anyway. Everybody will be
different with Samento like they are with some of the other
supplements. I wouldnt worry if you have been ok so far.
Regards
Lorraine.
--- In [email protected], "loveandlight1111"
wrote:
>
> Hey guys, this is pretty scary. I have been taking this for about 16
mo. Interesting
> that the symptions are all pretty herx symptions. Lots of emotions
coming up.
> Scream! Interesting, I have been intuitively been stopping and
cutting back.
> Hope this isn't as bad as it sounds. I need to reread all this.
Brain fog is pretty bad.
> How many of u are taking it? Joyce
>
> --- In [email protected], "Paula Carnes" wrote:
> >
> > Please be very cautious in adding Samento to your regimen. This
"supplement"
> > can be destructive to tendons and can cause CNS damage. It seems
some people
> > cannot tolerate quinovic acid. I will post a warning from Dr. Jay
Cohen, MD
> > which relates the dangers of quinolone antibiotics. It is
interesting that
> > the product described below includes magnesium. This MAY help to
prevent the
> > damage that can be done by quinolones to tendons and CNS, but for
those who
> > cannot tolerate quinolones this low dose of magnesium would
probably be
> > useless.
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the bad effects of quinolones look exactly like Lyme disease the
> > patient often does not recognize the problem until too late.
Symptoms would
> > be pain in tendons and muscles, anxiety and poor sleep. When
quinolones work
> > for Lyme patients they can be amazing. When they "poison" the
patient the
> > damage can be months to years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is the sentence from the article below connecting samento with
> > quinolones.
> >
> >
> >
> > "In addition, Prima Ua de Gato contains quinovic acid glycosides,
> > the natural compounds upon which the synthetic antibiotic
quinolones are
> > based."
> >
> >
> >
> > Paula Carnes
> >
> >
> >
> > (http://www.healthherbs.com/research...-newsletter.php
> > )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The Possible Benefits of Prima Ua de Gato (TOA Free Cat's Claw),
a Dietary
> > Supplement
> >
> > Provides active ingredients that can help modulate and support immune
> > function, and is free of tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOAs)
> > Can help regulate inflammation and microbial balance in the
gastrointestinal
> > system
> > Provides antioxidant activity and support of circulation
> > Ua de Gato (Uncaria tomentosa), or cat's claw, has long been used by
> > indigenous healers in the rainforests of the Peruvian Andes and
elsewhere in
> > South America. In recent times it has been studied for its ability to
> > support gastrointestinal and immune functions. In the gastrointestinal
> > tract, it has been shown to help control inflammation and
microbial balance,
> > and soothe irritated tissue. Research into its ability to support
the immune
> > system has shown that it has antioxidant properties, which may
support the
> > body's inhibition of the development of potentially aberrant
cells. It can
> > support circulation through the strengthening of capillaries.
> >
> > Prima Ua de Gato is a standardized whole herb, manufactured using a
> > proprietary process that does not involve the use of solvents.
Regular cat's
> > claw contains both tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids and pentacyclic
oxindole
> > alkaloids, whereas Prima Ua de Gato is standardized to 0.5%
pentacyclic
> > oxindole alkaloids (POAs), and is 100% free of tetracyclic oxindole
> > alkaloids (TOAs). Why is this distinction important? Regular cat's
claw
> > typically has a total alkaloid content of 3.0%, with up to 20-25%
of that
> > alkaloid content in the form of TOAs. Prima Ua de Gato extract,
> > standardized to a minimum of 0.5% POA, is free of TOA. The POA
content of
> > Prima Ua de Gato is much more effective, because immune
enhancement is
> > diminished when the two chemotypes are mixed. TOAs are chemical
antagonists
> > that act upon the central nervous system and can greatly inhibit the
> > positive effect of the POAs. POAs primarily affect the immune cells
> > responsible for nonspecific and cellular immunity, and demonstrate
powerful
> > immune system modu-lating properties. In short, Prima Ua de Gato,
> > containing only POAs, may have more benefit for immune enhancement
than a
> > standard cat's claw containing both pentacyclic and tetracyclic
alkaloids.
> >
> > TOA-free chemotype cat's claw can help to restore and boost the immune
> > system. The POAs are the active ingredients that provide the principal
> > immunomodulating and immunostimulating activity. POAs are actively
involved
> > in the functional mechanisms of both innate and acquired immunity,
assisting
> > in the maintenance of the immune system's structural and functional
> > integrity. In addition, Prima Ua de Gato contains quinovic acid
glycosides,
> > the natural compounds upon which the synthetic antibiotic
quinolones are
> > based.
> >
> > TOA-free cat's claw was introduced into Bulgaria, which has a high
> > occurrence of Borrelia burgdorferi, in January 2001, where it
quickly became
> > the most widely sold natural remedy in that country. TOA-free
chemotype cat'
> > s claw has been used by Dr. Atanas Tzonkov in Bulgaria's largest
private
> > medical clinic, in the nutritional support for thousands of patients,
> > involving over 100 conditions. Also in 2001, the Hungarian National
> > Institute of Pharmacy (OGYI), equivalent to the U.S. FDA, approved
TOA-free
> > chemotype cat's claw for over-the-counter use.
> >
> > Prima Ua de Gato offers a significant advancement in our
understanding of
> > the best utilization of Uncaria tomentosa. The Prima Ua de Gato
formula is
> > potentized with minerals and enzymes to support detoxifi-cation,
and has
> > been clinically tested. Atanas Tzonkov, director of the Lechitel
Clinic in
> > Sofia, Bulgaria, has stated that TOA-free chemotype cat's claw can
fortify a
> > person's own self-healing power which Nature has built into his
spirit, mind
> > and body.
> >
> > Each capsule contains:
> >
> > Cat's Claw (bark) (standardized to 0.5% POAs) 375 mg
> >
> > Magnesium (as Magnesium Malate) 19 mg
> >
> > Manganese (as Manganese Citrate) 30 mcg
> >
> > Chromium (as Chromium Polynicotinate) 5 mcg
> >
> > Protease 30000 HUT
> >
> > Cellulase 1600 CU
> >
> > Other ingredients: Bamboo fiber.
> >
> > Suggested Use: As a dietary supplement, 1 capsule 1 to 3 times
daily, on an
> > empty stomach, or as directed by a healthcare practitioner.
> >
> > Use under medical supervision. Herxheimer reaction may occur. Not
> > recommended for pregnant or nursing women or organ transplant
recipients.
> >
>

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Jill E.
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LymeStrategies is a Yahoo group. I just read the post on there about Samento being related to the ingredient for quinolone antibiotics.

This is the first I've heard of a connection.

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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lou
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Very interesting. If true, this would not do for those of us who already have tendon damage from quinolones, like me.
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Nori
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from page 102 of Stephen Buhners Book - healing lyme

Cats claw and the quinovic acid controversy

"A rumor has spread that the quinovic acids in cats claw are, at root the same as quinolone antibiotics. The rumors say that this is why cats claw is effective against lyme spirochetes. Concern has been generated by this untrue assertion because quinolone antibiotics can cause severe inflammation in tendons. So, the word is that cats claw can cause tendonitis resulting in tissue distruction over time. This is all completely untrue. The quinovic acids in cats claw are structurally different than quinolone antibiotics. Molecularly, they are not the same at all and they do not do the same things."

--------------------
Nori

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777
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S. H. Buhner: "Healing Lyme", p.102:

quote:
The quinovic acid controversy:
A rumor has spread that the quinovic acids in cat's claw are, at root, the same as quinolone antibiotics. The rumors say that this is why cat's claw is effective against Lyme spirochetes. Concern has been generated by this untrue assertion because quinolone antibiotics, in some instances , can cause severe inflammation in tendons. So, the word is that cat's claw can cause tendonitis, resulting in tissue destruction over time. This is all completely untrue. The quonovic acids in cat's claw are structurally different than quinolone antibiotics. Molecularly, they are not the same at all and they do not do the same things.

So, until there is not something really new coming, I'll stay with the cat's claw. Right now there is another cup ready. Cheers, friends!
[Smile]

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777
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Oops, Nori was quicker... [Wink]
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Jill E.
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Thanks to Nori and 777 for posting. I have that book but am only part of the way through it.

It is a relief to hear that this is a myth.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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lou
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Well, but if you go to the lyme strategies website, the info on this came from a pharmacist, prof at a university, who presumably knows some chemistry. Meanwhile, what are Buhner's qualifications to make these statements?

It is important to remember that not everyone experiences side effects from quinolones and therefore if samento is similar, then not everyone will have tendon problems. This just points out the need for better testing of herbal meds. Those compounds were not developed for our use but for the purposes of the plant, and so it is logical to think that, like prescription drugs, they may have undesirable side effects and interactions that need to be factored in.

It might be worthwhile for someone who is taking samento to check the PDR for herbal medicines, see what it says on this issue. This volume can be found in some public libraries.

Anyone who knows they have quinolone problems and is thinking of taking samento would be wise to do some further checking.

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Marnie
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Nat Prod Lett. 2002 Dec;16(6):389-93.

Quinovic acid glycosides from Mitragyna stipulosa--first examples of natural INHIBITORS of snake venom ***phosphodiesterase*** I.

Fatima N, Tapondjou LA, Lontsi D, Sondengam BL, Atta-Ur-Rahman, Choudhary MI.

HEJ Research Institute of Chemistry, International Center for Chemical Sciences, University of Karachi, Karachi-75270, Pakistan.

Phytochemical investigations on the non-alkaloidal extracts of Mitragyna stipulosa bark has led to the isolation of a series of triterpenoids mainly consisting of quinovic acid ([structure: see text]) and its glycoside derivatives [structure: see text] and [structure: see text]. The other constituents isolated include alpha-amyrin, 3beta-acetyl ursolic acid and a mixture of oleanolic and ursolic acid and beta-sitosterol glucopyranoside.

Their structures were identified by spectral and chemical studies and compounds [structure: see text] and [structure: see text] were, respectively, identified as quinovic acid 3-O-[beta-D-glucopyranoside] (quinovin glycoside C) and quinovic acid 3-O-[beta-D-quinovopyranoside]-27-O-[beta-D-glucopyranosyl] ester. Compounds [structure: see text] and [structure: see text]

showed ***significant inhibitory activity against snake venom phosphodiesterase I.

PMID: 12462343

J Bacteriol. 2003 Feb;185(4):1346-56.

Glycerol-3-phosphate acquisition in spirochetes: distribution and biological activity of glycerophosphodiester ***phosphodiesterase*** (GlpQ) among Borrelia species.

PMID: 12562805

J Clin Microbiol. 2004 May;42(5):2326-8.

Glycerophosphodiester ***phosphodiesterase***gene (glpQ) of Borrelia lonestari identified as a target for differentiating Borrelia species associated with hard ticks (Acari:Ixodidae).

Bacon RM, Pilgard MA, Johnson BJ, Raffel SJ, Schwan TG.

Bacterial Zoonoses Branch, Division of Vector-Borne Infectious Diseases, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Fort Collins, Colorado 80521, USA. [email protected]

A glpQ ortholog was identified in DNA from Borrelia lonestari-positive Amblyomma americanum, providing further evidence that B. lonestari is more closely related to the relapsing fever group spirochetes than to borreliae that cause Lyme disease.

This finding provides a basis for developing diagnostic assays to differentiate species of borrelia transmitted by hard ticks.

PMID: 15131225

Looks to depend on which borrelia one comes into contact with whether or not Cat's Claw might work or not (to eliminate the infection or merely to alter the immune response thus, make one simply feel better).

Here too: PMID: 12562805

Anaesthesia. 1996 May;51(5):465-73.

Immunomodulation: an important concept in modern anaesthesia.

McBride WT, Armstrong MA, McBride SJ.

Department of Microbiology and Immunobiology, Queen's University Belfast.

This review summarises evidence for immunomodulatory effect of drugs administered peri-operatively. The clinical significance of the balance of pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines may be seen in certain disease states, for example, meningococcal meningitis and Lyme arthritis.

This balance may be altered peri-operatively. Traditionally, these changes are considered to be due to the stress response of surgery, the response to cardiopulmonary bypass, or endotoxaemia.

This review presents in vitro evidence suggesting that drugs modulating this cytokine balance include non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents, ***phosphodiesterase inhibitors*** and opioids, acting through effects on intracellular cyclic nucleotide messenger systems.

An important consequence of the pro-inflammatory cytokine activity is increased adhesion of neutrophils. Aspects of this process may be inhibited by avoiding low blood flow states, by reducing adhesion molecule expression (for example by use of pentoxifylline), or by use of negatively charged anions such as heparin.

Neutrophil activity is generally depressed by intravenous anaesthetic induction agents, but is enhanced by opioids. Natural killer cell activity, which is involved in immunity against tumour cells and virally infected cells is transiently depressed by volatile anaesthetic agents and opioids.

In contrast catecholamines enhance natural killer cell activity. Whereas decrease in immunoglobulin levels occur peri-operatively, this is not thought to be as a result of drugs at clinically used concentrations but rather due to haemodilution.

PMID:8694161

(The opioids appear to decrease insulin AND glucagon, but block acetylcholine also.)

What this all ``translates'' to appears to be:

Cat's Claw might help with some infections, but not borrelia burgdorferi. That's not to say it doesn't make one FEEL better by changing the immune response, but...
BE BETTER...decreasing the infection load?

I think we're using the wrong class of drugs to go after this pathogen.

I want you to not only FEEL better, but BE better (!) so you will not have to take longterm antibiotics the rest of your lives and constantly fight yeast and other infections.

That said, while I AM ``against'' antibiotics, I do not feel it is right/fair to punish doctors who were trained by the pharmaceutical industry to treat infections with antibiotics, and then are threatened to lose their licenses when in fact, antibiotics will indeed make someone FEEL better.

There are many diseases where longterm abx. use is currently in practice. No, it isn't right, but today...it's all we have...UNTIL...''they'' accept the fact that we need to change our way of approaching knocking off the pathogens...many of them... by looking at the routes they take.

Borrelia burgdorferi is a very unique pathogen!

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klutzo
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Thank you Nori...I knew I had read that somewhere!

FWIW, This is what I know from personal experience.

1. Cipro does NOT make me herx.

2. Samento DOES make me herx.

3. Samento has caused improvement in my condition,though I admit it's not as much as I expected by this time.

Why does Samento make me have very definite herxes if it is not killing something?

Hi MARNIE - If we should not take ABX and we should not take Samento, what exactly should we take that you think will cure us? I know you like Magnesium, B complex and Lecithin, but surely you do not believe they are curative, or do you? If so, can you explain why, in plain English for folks like me who do not have your science background?
Thank you,

Klutzo

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Nal
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I firmly belive that not every medication-including herbals works for everyone. I personally can not take rifampin-caused a lot of problems for me. I know others on here have taken it and have had tremendous improvements on it.

I am currently on amoxycillin and noticing some improvements. This antibiobitic also does not work for everyone.

Cats Claw may have side effects. Almost every med out there carries some risk! Tylenol for crying out load can cause liver damage in some people.

Everyone definately needs to read, educate themselves and make the best decision they can for their own healthcare.

Nancy

--------------------
Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you respond to it!

-Chuck Swindoll

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tempe
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So Marnie, cat's claw seems potentially effective against borrelia lonestari?

I was bitten by a lonestar tick!! Guess I'll order some!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marnie:
[QB] Nat Prod Lett. 2002 Dec;16(6):389-93.

Looks to depend on which borrelia one comes into contact with whether or not Cat's Claw might work or not (to eliminate the infection or merely to alter the immune response thus, make one simply feel better).

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Thanks Klutzo,Nori, Marnie, I just got back from my Dr apt. He feels the same as Healing Lyme book. Cats claw and antibotics are different. T tired and brainfogged to write any more. I feel much better about it after seeing Him. He also muscle tested me and I use a pendlum and got that is is a yes for me. We got the same amount. 7 drops 3 times a day. Nite all. Joyce
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Healing in Santa Cruz
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PS Hope I didn't freak everyone out like I was. It scared me when I saw this.
Klutzo, I also herx from cats claw. I do not feel the wonderful things that u feel but we are all different. I am slowly getting better. Frustrating but I have been ill lots of yrs, And working on other things besides lyme.
Take care all. Joyce

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healthywealthywise
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I don't know what to think about this....my new LLMD said samento is not something he recommends to patients.

His thought is anything you have to ramp up so slowly, one drop at a time isn't good for you.

It's as if you are building a tolerence in your body to what is bad for you.

Again, not sure if he's right or not. Jury is still out for me.

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tjtighe
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One of the first questions I asked my new llmd was it OK to ramp up slowly. He told me to go as slowly as I feel I need to.

What to think?????

--------------------
tj

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SForsgren
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I believe that Cat's Claw can be useful for Lyme Disease. I do not believe it is a cure, but it can be useful for many people. I would not jump to conclusions and take something posted on a newsgroup all that seriously...at least initially.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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SForsgren
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From another poster on another board:

from page 102 of Stephen Buhners Book - healing lyme

Cats claw and the quinovic acid controversy

"A rumor has spread that the quinovic acids in cats claw are, at root
the same as quinolone antibiotics. The rumors say that this is why
cats claw is effective against lyme spirochetes. Concern has been
generated by this untrue assertion because quinolone antibiotics can
cause severe inflammation in tendons. So, the word is that cats claw
can cause tendonitis resulting in tissue distruction over time. This
is all completely untrue. The quinovic acids in cats claw are
structurally different than quinolone antibiotics. Molecularly, they
are not the same at all and they do not do the same things."

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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777
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Lou,

it's true, that not every "natural" herb should be taken without consideration of possible interactions and side effects. There is a need of empirical and theoretical knowlege. But it's not our fault that there has been done much more medical research on the commercially more interesting substances. More (independent) research on herbal medicine has to be done. Anyway, we have to take care.

Refering to Buhner, he seems to be serious in compounding the available material. Shouldn't be taken as a kind of bible, though: work in progress - like elsewhere.

Profs are human beings, too. In the Third Reich in Germany we had some, where it is difficult to state even this. So, why to make it a big point, saying this one is a prof and that one is a hippie?

I'll go for another cup of cat's claw. I'm not in the position to say that everybody should do this right now. But cheers to everybody! [Wink]

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mag
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good info everyone

well i have been taking this on and off for the past 9 months
i herx with it
and i have read that it does cross the blood brain barrier


we'll see if the samento or borrelia wins

mags

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JimBoB
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Folks, we need to take ALL this into perspective.

When quoting Stephen Buhner's book, Healing Lyme, you need to take ALL things into consideration that he writes about, not just a couple of paragraphs here and there.

You all are talking about page 102 of his book on the POA/TOA controversy. You need to back up and start reading from page 99. NOT only are the quinovic acids NOT the same as quinolones used in artificial drugs, that the big companies who are soaking you for billions of dollars each year, neither is the whole herb Cat's Claw the same as TOA free Samento. You get a lot more benefit from the WHOLE herb.

I am 64+ years old; and one thing I have found throughout the years is that, once "man" starts FOOLING with Nature, things almost always go awry.

Another thing, I take Cat's Claw, (whole herb), but THAT is certainly NOT the ONLY HERB that I take. Geeez! IT is NOT a miracle drug. Neither is Aspirin or Tylenol.

I take Cat's Claw ALONG WITH MANY other herbs at the same time. So how in the heck am I going to be able to tell IF I herx from CAT'S CLAW? I can't. All I know is that it does what it is supposed to do: namely HELPS relieve me of my Arthritis, Asthma AND muscle pain.

BUT I certainly do NOT depend on Cat's Claw ALONE to do this. Devil's Claw helps tremendously, as does Stephania Root, Hu Zhang, and Smilax.

I would NOT want to be without any one of them for more than a day or two.

LOU: You need to READ BUHNER's Book, then when you are done reading it, STUDY IT. Then STUDY it AGAIN, and AGAIN. Then, MAYBE you will understand what fantastic knowledge Mr. Stephen H. Buhner has.

WHO the heck cares WHAT degrees people have? I have MANY degrees. The degrees mean absolutely NOTHING in themselves. It is WHAT I do with my vast knowledge of the things I have expertise in that counts. Not the fact that I have many certificates and/or plaques on my walls.

Buhner gives us PRACTICAL advice, and this advice will do wonders for our health and in the "curing" of this hideous disease so many are suffering from. BUT, this will ONLY happen IF we FOLLOW his advice and really DO something about it.

He didn't just get this knowledge out of the clear blue sky, or "thin air". He studied for many years, practiced what he learned, visited and studied with many practitioners, etc., etc..

I have been only studying Lyme Disease for 6 months now, and I know MUCH more than the majority of MD's out there at this time, on the subject. (Course that isn't saying much). [Cool]

Jim. [Cool]

[ 13. May 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: JimBoB ]

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Marnie
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Klutzo,

To INactivate HMG CoA reductase in the liver, to shut down cholesterol formation (we will get cholesterol from foods as a backup route - WE have to have some cholesterol)EITHER cholesterol lowering drugs OR magnesium do this. These BOTH can INactivate HMG CoA reductase. Both need "high" doses to accomplish this.

November 26, 2004

Review finds magnesium may provide better benefits than statins

A review published in the October 2004 issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition has found that the beneficial effects of magnesium could outweigh those of statin drugs.

Statins are a class of drugs commonly prescribed for individuals with elevated cholesterol levels, a risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

Because the drugs have side effects, some people are seeking alternative ways to improve their cardiovascular disease risk.
Andrea Rosanoff, PhD, and Mildred S Seelig, MD of State University of New York Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn discuss the fact that

***statin drugs as well as magnesium inactivate the enzyme 5-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl-coenzyme A reductase (HMG-CoA reductase).***

HMG CoA reductase converts HMG-CoA into a substance called mevalonate, which is the first step in cholesterol formation.

Reducing mevalonate improves endothelial function, reduces inflammation, and provides other cardiovascular benefits.

Magnesium, however, is also involved in the activity of another enzyme known as lecithin cholesterol acyl transferase (LCAT), which helps elevate high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels and reduces low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol and triglycerides.

In addition, another enzyme known as desaturase, which helps convert linoleic acid and linolenic acid into prostaglandins, is dependent upon magnesium.

Furthermore, optimal levels of magnesium within the cell are a natural calcium channel blocker, which helps dilate the blood vessels.
Drs Rosanoff and Seelig note that while statin drugs help to prevent blood clots, lower inflammation and protect against atherosclerosis, they can elevate liver enzymes and cause myopathy as well as other side effects,
whereas diarrhea or mild gastrointestinal distress are the only side effects that have been caused by magnesium supplements.

Statins cost at least $100.00 per month compared to no more than $20.00 for a month’s supply of magnesium.

These factors combined suggest that increasing magnesium could be a viable alternative to taking statin drugs

http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2004_11.htm

But IF one thinks this will work WHILE taking antibiotics...it WON'T.

Antibiotics deplete nutrients. Restoring nutrients that have been depleted is very, very important. IMO, the body "showed" us what was needed.

Did you read the Romanian abstract? It is titled:

"Lyme disease and magnesium deficiency"

Did you read Dr. Valletta's U.S. patent? It is titled:

"Magnesium for autoimmune"

It TAKES Mg (and Ca) to make your own healthy, not damaged, antibodies. With insufficient Mg, those antibodies specific to Bb are damaged at the "fab" portion:

Characterization of the physiological requirements for the

bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi

by confocal microscopy.

The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but

is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.

Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations

restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.

The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.

PMID: 9125579

Lots of damaged antibodies...up goes TNF alpha because ONE of the many jobs of TNF alpha is to get rid of "imperfect" antibodies:

6. ``After noticing that exposure to the naturally occurring compound TNF-alpha (Tumor Necrosis
Factor-alpha) killed

malfunctioning immune cells...''

www.diabetesincontrol.com/issue166/item1.shtml

There are 18 additional benefits of this proinflammatory cytokine which I linked in my Updated Nutshell post.

While abx. will help to rid several other infections, Bb is UNIQUE. It its outer cell wall is Zn + cholesterol. This is the "endotoxin". Yes, it's taking OUR zinc. Disasterous. Our thymus gland needs zinc and the thymus gland is the "seat of our immunity"...as the Greeks put it.

The first step to destroy a pathogen is to weaken the cell wall.

Our own neutrophils, the most abundant WBC contain calprotectin, which binds zinc, making it unavailable for the pathogen to use.

But magnesium metal can remove zinc ions from solution:

Mg(s) + Zn2+(aq) Zn(s) + Mg2+(aq)


The reverse reaction does occur- a very tiny amount of zinc placed in a solution of magnesium ions will dissolve."


http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/redox/faq/activity-series.shtml


Do I think the right nutrients, at the right doses, at the right time will cure lyme? Yes, but it will take time.

Do I think other "alternative" paths work too? Absolutely. I believe Rife works as do ozone saunas as does using high dose Benicar (but that makes me nervous...esp. CoQ10 issues). These all work for different reasons, but they work. It is unfortunate that persons who report that other therapies work and they have been healed or are healing, are criticized and ultimately leave this board.

Think "outside" of the box. This is like no other pathogen (except for mycoplasm).

Some LLMDs are finding MS-Lyme patients are co-infected with salmonella (info came from Tincup). Now, that's even worse. One raises cholesterol, the other breaks it down (destroys the myelin sheath). If babesia wasn't bad enough as a co-hort in crime. Bb doesn't like iron, babesia does. They live together very "happily".

P.S. I have a sneaking hunch that it is when Zn and Mg levels drop and TNF alpha goes up... this is the "herx" response...the symptoms returning/worse. Check your pH at that time. Are you acidic?

[ 13. May 2006, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]

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lou
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To answer you, 777, I am not saying degrees are the only thing to consider, but this question was framed as one of chemistry, therefore someone with a chemistry background would presumably be worth hearing. Not saying profs know everything.... they sure don't about lyme. Either you collect evidence, and present in a form that can be evaluated by everyone, or you just make claims.

Yes, I know big pharma only interested in things that make them money, and testing of herbals, etc neglected. It seems to be obvious that more testing should be done. The herbal PDR that I mentioned uses a lot of evidence from the German commission; they have done more with an open mind than the U.S. NIH CAM studies (which are only looking to disprove the use of everything not sold by big pharma). I have said this repeatedly, so often I am getting tired of saying it.

But, people have the right to take alternative meds with their own research or without it and to answer questions from others who want it. They should not, however, try to push it on others, unasked.

I always wonder when people say they are herxing whether they are sure that getting worse while taking any med is herxing or perhaps just getting worse. Please don't bother to answer me, jim bob, you are as far gone down the alternative road as big pharma is on the other road. I don't think your constant "sales" pitch serves the members of this forum well. Saying what helps you is different than pushing it on other people. You step over the line constantly.

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Nori
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Personally, I am glad to hear views of all and anything people are taking and what is helping them.

This is why I come to this board. I dont like to see people shut down for their views if it is outside the "mainstream"- whatever that is.

We are all trying to get well and any information here that leads me to something or a variety of things that will help me is valued.

--------------------
Nori

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klutzo
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NORI - Vey well said and I agree.

MARNIE - I have a couple of questions after reading your answer. Let me see if I understood you.....
1. If I was taking enough Mg to help kill Bb, does that mean my lipid levels should be OK and my cholesterol should be low?
2. I already take Mg to bowel tolerance (650 mgs. daily). How can I increase it further when I can't afford to get it IV?

The reason I ask, is that my lipids are the only part of my bloodwork that is always very abnormal.

My HDL is too low for a woman (always was, even before Lyme...low HDL runs in my family). My LDL is astronomical. My triglycerides are OK, but only because I take 1,500 mgs. of non-flush Niaicin daily. Without niacin, they are also astronomical. High LDL and triglycerides do not run in my family.

Diet and exercise do not make a dent. Statins cause such severe muscle pain and weakness that I can barely walk to the mailbox, despite taking 260 mgs. COQ10 daily, so I won't take them.

I guess I should have PM'd you about this, since it is not about Samento, but I thought some others might be interested in your answer.

Klutzo

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JimBoB
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Hey LOU, NO "bother" at all. HOW ELSE will the people get the REAL truth? Answer me THAT! Of course you won't, as I have learned, you will just run away, when REALLY confronted OR maybe eliminate my post, right?

You say you wonder, IF people are actually herxing or getting worse below, I agree with you on that one.
QUOTE by Lou:
I always wonder when people say they are herxing whether they are sure that getting worse while taking any med is herxing or perhaps just getting worse.
Unquote.

Then YOU said:

Quote:

"Please don't bother to answer me, jim bob, you are as far gone down the alternative road as big pharma is on the other road. I don't think your constant "sales" pitch serves the members of this forum well. Saying what helps you is different than pushing it on other people. You step over the line constantly".

Unquote.

I step over WHO's LINE, constantly? YOURS? Course YOU won't answer that, will you? You will run and hide like when we were PM'g each other a while back, when you couldn't come up with a . But like YOU told me, YOU are very pigheaded and don't move when someone confronts you. OR something to that effect. I would have to go back and read the pm's to get the exact wording.

I don't PUSH for the GOOD any more than MANY push for the BAD. I personally know WHAT has worked for me, (and many others), and WHAT has NOT worked.

I am one person of a very few who are sounding off about how bad abx made me feel. And of course you and a few others would just LOVE to shut me up so you all can be FREE to excercise YOUR American rights, without ME excercising MINE. RIGHT?

Like some have told me: Ignore him (them), THEY are just angry AND jealoous because they have spent years and thousands of dollars and STILL are NOT cured and FEEL BAD besides.

Sad but true. [Frown]

But it behoves me to at least TRY to help OTHERS who are NOT so prideful, to at least have a CHANCE to follow a more beneficial road that I, GiGi, Scott, and quite a few others are/have taken to better health.

IF you do not want to be that kind of person, so be it, but WHY discourage others who are more open and understanding? I just have a hard time comprehending THAT.

Respectfully yours,
Jim [Cool]

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robi
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Wow ....... not again.

robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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trueblue
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[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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jwf
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From positive to negative with IgeneX;
from multiple late stage Lyme symptoms to none;
In 2 years and 2 months with herbs;
The star of the show has always been
Cats Claw.

Blue Skies...........John

[ 14. May 2006, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: jwf ]

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JimBoB
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Hey, Cave:

Was I toooooooo strong again???? [bonk]

Oh, well, what can I say. IT just irks me when someone equates ME with the MONEY people.

I am CERTAINLY NOT in it for the money. To the contrary, I could be making money IF I didn't spend so much time on these boards.

JWF:

Thanks, I knew there were some more out there besides GiGi, myself, and some others that have Pm'd me in the past, who are having wonderful results with Herbs. I just wished I had stayed on the herbs only instead of taking the abx for a couple of months. I fell they set me back more than they helped. I could be wrong on that, but I don't think so.

Time will tell.

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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Marnie posted:

Do I think the right nutrients, at the right doses, at the right time will cure lyme? Yes, but it will take time.

Do I think other "alternative" paths work too? Absolutely. I believe Rife works as do ozone saunas as does using high dose Benicar (but that makes me nervous...esp. CoQ10 issues). These all work for different reasons, but they work. It is unfortunate that persons who report that other therapies work and they have been healed or are healing, are criticized and ultimately leave this board.

Think "outside" of the box. This is like no other pathogen (except for mycoplasm).
Unquote.
###

AMEN! [Cool]

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Truthfinder
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Well, I've spent the last hour trying to find out more about this.

A couple of questions I have about this are: (1) is it known for CERTAIN that the ``quinovic acids'' in quinolones are what cause the damaging side effects? and (2) is there any test that can be done to see if quinolones are safe for a patient?

Apparently, there are some folks over on the Marshall Protocol chat forum who have had quinolone-like reactions to Samento.

http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum23/1217.html
``I would like to say that the quinolones also affected me VERY adversely...tendon damage and pain that was excruciating. For me, the shoulder tendon damage is permanent. The Samento (one drop) caused severe pain, also. It is very similar to the quinolones in its' molecular structure. Please use great caution with the samento, or any cat's claw product. If tendon and muscle pain develops, consider stopping it immediately. I later had a genetic liver test done and I do not clear the quinolones well. Taking any of them causes high blood levels and is maybe the reason some of us cannot tolerate them at all.....just wanted to add my 2 cents on this issue, as I think it is something that needs to be known when taking antibiotics, as many of us do.''
*******************

``I feel it is my duty to chime in here too and support what has been said about Samento. I belong to that UK list and so I know that some people do well with Samento. However, it would have been a disaster for me. After about a week on very small amounts of Samento, I started getting terrible Achilles tendon pain. This lasted 2-3 months after I quit Samento, and I feel lucky that I seem to have escaped long term damage.

I wouldn't risk anything related to a quinolone now, myself''.
****************

``....If Dr. ****** uses any sort of glutathione this may be helpful in removing the quinolone toxicity. It is the only thing that seems to have helped me.''
*****************

I also noted that one person said that plaquinil - often used to treat babesia - is a quinolone with all the same risks. Does anyone know if this is true?

From Jay S. Cohen - mentioned on the Lyme Strategies group site - regarding quinolones:

http://www.drugvictims.org/
``Adverse effects associated with the use of ciprofloxacin (Cipro) and other fluoroquinolone antibiotics are not always benign. Not infrequently, they can be severe and permanently disabling, and they may occur following just one or a few doses, according to a study posted on The Annals of Pharmacotherapy Web site...''

".............infrequent yet serious reactions [may include] joint, muscle, or tendon pain or rupture, nerve pain (burning, electrical sensations, tingling), muscle weakness, thinking or memory problems, heart palpitations, rapid heart rate, gastric problems, skin rash, or many other unusual physical or psychological symptoms."

I thought some of this might of interest.

Tracy

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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klutzo
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How can you tell the difference between a herx and the dangerous side-effects?

I see no difference between the sx of the two. My main herx sx are muscle pain and insomnia.

The only way I can tell is because I just finished a course of high dose Cipro, prescribed for a sinus infection. Samento did not resolve the sinus infection, but Cipro did, so I don't see how they can possibly be exactly the same chemically speaking, since their effects were so different.

I stopped all Samento while on Cipro. The Cipro did NOT make me herx, whereas Samento does. It seems to me this may be the only way to tell if your sx are due to herxing or problems from the tx.

I was told by the customer advisor that Nutramedix used to have available (they don't have this service anymore) that if Samento causes insomnia, then you have neuroborreliosis, the only pathogen for which Samento can cause the sx of insomnia.

He was biased of course, but also told me Samento has no side-effects....that any sx you have on it are due to herxing. AND, he said you should NOT allow yourself to herx, but should back off one drop at a time until it stops.

The reason you build slowly and the reason one drop can make you herx so badly is that it is SO strong, supposedly 15 times stronger than Cat's Claw, just as digitalis is stronger than foxglove. Samento is really a drug,and just as strong as one, IMO, and is recognized as such in S. America where all the research on it has been done.

I don't know which is better. I tried Cat's Claw a long time ago and it did nothing, but maybe I will try it again. Let's all keep our minds open, but not so far our brains fall out!

Peace,

Klutzo

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Hi JWF, Glad u posted that. My accupunctureist also got well on straight Allergy Research Cats Claw in less than a yr and she has been ill quite a while. She is now Igenx neg.
Blessings to your healing. Joyce
Boy, did I open a can of worms with my post when I was in freak out mode. Got clear with my MD muscle testing me and I use a pendulum. Both takes alot of practice and patience to learn. U can also ask what is a herx etc. Too bad people are in judgement about muscle testing and pendulums as both are very goo tools. Take care Joyce

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klutzo
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Joyce,
Re: your friend who got well in less than a year on plain Cat's Claw...
1. How long had she been sick before treatment?
2. Did she take any ABX at all?
3. Did she take anything else besides the CC?
4. Did she have any organ damage by the time she started treatment? If so, did it reverse?

Thanks,
Klutzo

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klutzo
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FYI:
I just spent some time at the Allergy Research Web site, reading about their Cat's Claw. It turns out is "100% TOA free", in otherwords, it's the same thing as Samento, which is what I already take, and it is not plain Cat's Claw.

Klutzo

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JimBoB
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Posted by Cave 76:
Now, there's a thought.

[Big Grin] [Big Grin]
--------------------
cave76
[email protected]
###


AND so could YOU, right? [Big Grin]

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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Too bad you all are reading such conflicting information.

WHOLE Cat's Claw is STILL the BEST one to take. IT is NOT modified by MAN. IT is real, and ALL we need is in it. BUT THAT is NOT the only thing to take either, like I reported earlier.

There are NO quinolones in CAT's CLAW, Whole Herb. NONE!

The quinovics are not at all the same thing as the quinolones in antibiotics. They aren't even distant cousins. Didn't you read what was stated earlier on this thread?

They do NOT cause tendonitis according to the Master. It is totally UNTRUE that they do or are the same as the quilolines of manmade antibiotics.

WHOLE Cat's Claw, is not only many times less expensive than TOA-free Cat's CLaw, (Samento), it will work exceptionally well IF it not FIDDLED with by druggists.

There ARE some contraindications however. They are: DO NOT use if you have had an organ transplant or are using immunosuppressive drugs. Do not use IF you are trying to become pregnant. Do not use if you are using blood thinning medications or are scheduled for surgery. Cease use of the herb 10 days prior to ANY surgery.

Do NOT take with acid blockers or antacids, such as PeptoBismol, as they can inactivate the herb. DO not use with blood thinning drugs.

You can take higher dosages of the whole herb to work harder on your arthritis, however very large doses at a time, such as 3 to 5 grams, can cause intestinal upset, diarrhea and/or abdominal pain. Lower the dose of the herb IF you experience these side effects. Discontinue use IF diarrhea persists longer than three days.

Cat's Claw, whole is specifically indicated in Chronic Lyme, Late Stage Lyme and Lyme infection that does NOT respond to antibiotics. Particularly Lyme D. that has low CD57 blood count. Also Lyme Arthritis. AND Lyme with Chronic Fatigue and Neuroborreliosis.

Other than THAT, you should be good to go.

The Keyword here is DON'T jump in all at once. Ramp up slowly, and maintain as long as you can. Take with other herbs that have similar effects, (though somewhat different), such as Devil's Claw, Smilax, and Stephania Root.

Jim [Cool]

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by JimBoB:
Hey LOU, NO "bother" at all. HOW ELSE will the people get the REAL truth? Answer me THAT! Of course you won't, as I have learned, you will just run away, when REALLY confronted OR maybe eliminate my post, right?

You say you wonder, IF people are actually herxing or getting worse below, I agree with you on that one.
QUOTE by Lou:
I always wonder when people say they are herxing whether they are sure that getting worse while taking any med is herxing or perhaps just getting worse.
Unquote.

Then YOU said:

Quote:

"Please don't bother to answer me, jim bob, you are as far gone down the alternative road as big pharma is on the other road. I don't think your constant "sales" pitch serves the members of this forum well. Saying what helps you is different than pushing it on other people. You step over the line constantly".

Unquote.

I step over WHO's LINE, constantly? YOURS? Course YOU won't answer that, will you? You will run and hide like when we were PM'g each other a while back, when you couldn't come up with a . But like YOU told me, YOU are very pigheaded and don't move when someone confronts you. OR something to that effect. I would have to go back and read the pm's to get the exact wording.

I don't PUSH for the GOOD any more than MANY push for the BAD. I personally know WHAT has worked for me, (and many others), and WHAT has NOT worked.

I am one person of a very few who are sounding off about how bad abx made me feel. And of course you and a few others would just LOVE to shut me up so you all can be FREE to excercise YOUR American rights, without ME excercising MINE. RIGHT?

Like some have told me: Ignore him (them), THEY are just angry AND jealoous because they have spent years and thousands of dollars and STILL are NOT cured and FEEL BAD besides.

Sad but true. [Frown]

But it behoves me to at least TRY to help OTHERS who are NOT so prideful, to at least have a CHANCE to follow a more beneficial road that I, GiGi, Scott, and quite a few others are/have taken to better health.

IF you do not want to be that kind of person, so be it, but WHY discourage others who are more open and understanding? I just have a hard time comprehending THAT.

Respectfully yours,
Jim [Cool]

Wrong Lou jimbob

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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Truthfinder
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I just noticed (in my own post, of all places) that one person said, "I later had a genetic liver test done and I do not clear the quinolones well. Taking any of them causes high blood levels and is maybe the reason some of us cannot tolerate them at all."

So, maybe this "genetic liver test" could give a clue about how well quinolones would be tolerated, and what the risk might be for severe reactions.

Gee, I'm starting to wonder about this for myself. I started having new, strange problems about 2 years ago which I have trouble even describing - but it's like I "break" something when I try to use my full strength in my arms and hands.

Looking back, I was on some quinolone abx for a short time in the year 2000.

And now I've been on Samento for nearly 5 months.

I'm not sure what the heck to think..... or do about it.

Tracy

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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Corgilla
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Hey guys,

I think one point has been sorely missed here.

Quinilones are used for Bartonella not Bb.

That could be one of the reasons Cats Claw seems to work for some and not for others.

Corgilla

--------------------
"I'll never forget good old Whatsisname."

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tempe
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JimBob,

Did you use the whole cat's claw caplets from Raintree Nutrition? That's what I'm thinking of trying first.

Tempe

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JimBoB
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In the very beginning I did.

But then I went to a couple of cheaper brands, as I have very little money. But NOW for quite a while, I have been filling my own veggie capsules. I get the Cat's Claw Whole Herb from SrarWest Botanicals. Seems to work good, and is certified Kosher. I now get my empty capsules from WonderLabs as they are the cheapest and very fast shipping. They are in Tennessee.

Jim.

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JimBoB
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Treepatrol:
What do you mean the wrong LOU? How can there be more than one person with the handle Lou?

Or am I missing something here?

Jim [Cool]

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by JimBoB:
Treepatrol:
What do you mean the wrong LOU? How can there be more than one person with the handle Lou?

Or am I missing something here?

Jim [Cool]

Theres LouB owner and moderator then theres Lou

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by JimBoB:

Or am I missing something here?


No comment [Big Grin]

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more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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Mathias
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Crazy thread.

I've been on both quinlones and cat's claw and I can tell you that they are not one in the same.

I have side effects from quinlones (Levaquin, Cipro, Factive) and have none from taking cat's claw.

The bigest benefit that I get from cat's claw is reduced inflamation.

--------------------
Mathias

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Klutso, I MIsspoke,miswrote lol. I did not mean to say PLAIN cats claw It's toa free. just like samento. I talked to a gal at Allergy research and the way I understand Nutra Medics Samento is the same exact product. They just put on their own labels. I am going to keep useing Allergy research toa free cc. I have had quite a shif in symptions since doing colonics and coffee enemas. SOOOO S&C, CC AND BEE-VENOM SHOTS FOR ME. Can't believe my post opened up a can of worms. Muscle testing and pendulum works for me and many others. Others use ART etc. Whatever works for everyone. We are all different. I like researching then using my pendulum and get my own answers. Blessings to everyones healing and getting the right answers. Joyce
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jwf
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quote:
Originally posted by Mathias:


The bigest benefit that I get from cat's claw is reduced inflamation.

That's probably the most overlooked benefit
of Cat's Claw. Much of the damage done by the
Lyme bacteria is caused by inflamation and
Cat's Claw breaks the cycle.
My wife and I both take the RainTree Cat's
Claw. Our choice after trying many different
brands and several of the TOA-free variety.

Blue Skies........John

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Truthfinder
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My inflammation is worse since starting the Samento nearly 5 months ago. I finally had to go on anti-inflammatories a month ago. This is the longest I have had to stay on them.

Tracy

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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JimBoB
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Tracy:

Maybe you should try the REAL Cat's Claw and see what THAT does for you. I have better results with Devil's Claw myself. But take both anyway.

JOHN:

Have you tried the StarWest Botanicals brand of WHOLE Cat's Claw? I won't take TOA free as I don't want to lose ALL the benefits of Cat's Claw. But, I also realize that as long as it hasn't been adulterated, all whole cat's claw should be the same, right? It all grows out of the ground.

I have now cut back to 71 pills a day from the 89 I was taking, (of ALL herbs), and haven't noticed any bad returning symptoms, so far.

TRUEBLUE: It stands to reason! [Big Grin]

Jim [Cool]

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by treepatrol:
quote:
Originally posted by JimBoB:
Treepatrol:
What do you mean the wrong LOU? How can there be more than one person with the handle Lou?

Or am I missing something here?

Jim [Cool]

Theres LouB owner and moderator then theres Lou
###


OOPS, SORRY! THOUGHT they were one and the same. But IF the shoe fits wear it. AND he hasn't been back.

Jim [Cool]

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