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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Bull's eye rash - PLEASE HELP!

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Author Topic: Bull's eye rash - PLEASE HELP!
earthgirl
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Hello,
My mother was bit by an unknown critter on a golf course last week, then developed a bull's eye rash a couple of days later. Her PCP said that it can't be Lyme since the rash developed too quickly after the bite and refused to even giver her a Lyme test. She lives in Bay Shore, NY (on Long Island).

HELP! What should we do? I was thinking about starting her on doxycycline for a couple of weeks just in case, but I'm not sure what dosage... (that is, if i can find a doc who will prescribe it).

Would you recommend starting antibiotics now (before any test)?
If so, which one? what dose? and for how long?

Thank you SO much for your help.
Sally
[email protected]

Posts: 22 | From Bay Area, CA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tabbytamer
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Dose she still have the rash? Take photos of this rash and any others that may develop.

Also have her keep a diary of her symptoms (fever, pain, mood changes, etc.).

Never lose the original copies of these records. You may need to show other doctors later.

--------------------
Tabby

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California Lyme support group

Posts: 2098 | From San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
shazdancer
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I agree, take a picture of the rash (outdoors for best lighting). It is definitive for Lyme, and yes, it can form within a couple of days.

I believe the usual LLMD protocol for an early infection is 400 mg of doxycycline per day for 6-8 weeks. And they would probably start it based on the rash, before getting test results done, which won't be positive for weeks anyway, because it takes that long to build up enough antibodies to read on the blood test. But I am not a doctor.

If you can get a doctor to get her started (try a walk-in doc if her PCP won't help), then it might buy you some time until you can get an appointment with a Lyme-literate doc.

Regards,
Shaz

Posts: 1558 | From the Berkshires | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
liz28
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Also, to follow up on Cave's wise suggestion, another thing you can do is request that your mother dunk her face in rancid cooking oil mixed with mud, slime, mold, rug shampoo, and oh, maybe oily sawdust that's been on your basement floor for a year. Wrap face well, maybe in cloth pre-soaked in standing pools of algae-covered quicksand at your local forest preserve.

Then, if she happens to develop an acne problem, you'll be so fortunate that, just by coincidence, you can visit any one of the excellent dermatologists located in New York and get a longterm doxycycline prescription with a clear conscience.

Or, if the idea of oily sawdust is just too awful, remember that doxycycline is one of the most widely prescribed malaria preventatives in the world. So if your mother moves up the date of her upcoming tour of ancient Thai temples, maybe she can get her malaria treatment a little early.

Now, I am not recommending that you do something like this under any circumstances, as I am not a medical professional and am not in a position to offer any advice on others' medical choices. These are just some ways that your mother, who already has her hands full trying to plan her Thailand vacation while trying to see through her quicksand poultices, can take some of the stress off.

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earthgirl
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Thank you all for your support.
I haven't seen the rash, but here's my question... she says it looks like a donut, but she has not seen any sign of an actual tick. I know you can make a definitive Lyme diagnosis with a tick bite and a bull's eye rash... but what if you don't know if it's a tick??

The other thing is she seems to have gotten the rash within a day, and Dr. B's protocol says it appears 4 days to a week after the bite.

Thanks again for your input. I'm very confused.
Sally

Posts: 22 | From Bay Area, CA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LYMESCIENCE
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Yo earthgirl! You want the scoop, ya got the scoop. Don't remember a tickbite ehe?? Then we can't be sure that the rash just "developed" overnight can we?

It could have been she was bitten two weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, or any time inbetween, and then one day she noticed a donut shaped rash. In her mind, the rash appeared overnight, but in reality, it appeared several weeks or days earlier.

Also, most people don't remember being bitten, if they did, there would be a lot less Lyme going around, its called evolution. Ticks secrete an enzyme that makes it so you won't feel the tick bite, that allows them to feed in peace.

Another thing to consider, and I know I putting a lot on your plate here, is that the bite she experienced on the golf course, and the rash are un connected. Only she connects them in her mind, and its mere coincidence the rash appears there the next day.

But, as I said, these things are, and can be extremely complicated. First of all, there are few rashes that resemble donuts, one of those is a brown recluse bite, rare, but they do happen. IF this is the case, then find a doctor now!!! I don't know much about their bite, but I know its not good. However, this is very very very rare, and I don't know if those spiders even exist in California.

Another possibility, and I think the greatist possibility, is that the bite, and the rash ARE connected. One of the only known species of ticks that many people report having "felt" the bite of is the Lone Star Tick, a very aggresive tick that bites just about anything. A doctor by the name of Ed Masters started discribing patients with a bullseye rash in Missouri durring the 80's, this disease subsequently became known as Master's disease or STARI. The rash is identical to Lyme, but the bacteria is unknown, however one of the biggest suspects is a bacteria known as Borrelia Lonestari.

Make no mistake, this is ALSO LYME DISEASE. However, the rash apparently appears much sooner than in typical Borrelia Burgdorferri Lyme Disease. Sometimes as soon as the next day. The expert on this disease is Ed Masters. I suggest trying to get in touch with him as he would be interested in hearing your Mom's story.

As for medicine, the key is to treat regardless of the cause. That means Doxycycline for at least 6 weeks, at a minimum dose of 300 mg a day so that you get at least some CNS penetration. Also look for the brown recluse route, but treat for Lyme regardless, the greatist harm you'll end up doing is making her a bit succeptable to sunburn, the bennifit is saving her from a disease so incidious that it would not be wished upon your worst enemy.

Hope this helps!

Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Trina
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Hello,
I did get lyme disease this month.The tick was the tinyest of ticks.Believe me I never felt it,we had been morel mushroom hunting.I had overlooked two of the ticks on my back because they were so small.A couple of days after mushroom hunting while looking in the mirror I noticed what I thought were a couple more moles than usual and thought knew I had missed a couple of tics.My daughter pulled them of with tweezers.Yes,I got a bulls eye rash from one it started out small and got bigger.The first few days you think no big deal, you have no rash yet.I did however get a gland in my neck that swelled, stiff neck, chills, itchy ect and feel tired.I had an aunt who was terminaly ill and was helping take care of her ( went mushroom hunting to get her some) and felt it was just a tick bite and I did not have the money or the time to go to the doctor and was probably just nervous.By the time the funeral was over and I had the time for my sister who is a PA to look at it and prescribe me some antibiotics she said oh yes it is lyme.Only she like everyother doctor only presribes 3 weeks.If you will go to your local library and read the first 3 chapters on any lyme disease book you will run not walk with your mother to the nearest doctor and insist on at least a month of antibiotics.I have been taking Doxy for about 10 days know and the lymp nodes in my neck are still hurting.I read in a library book last night that I am probalbly going to have some problams from this disease.Meaning the little bugger was infected with another disease such as Bartonella.Another thing the spirochetes rehatch every 4 weeks.So if you are not on antibiotics at least that long you have a new batch of them in your sysetem.This is not a rare disease by any means at all.Even doxy does not work unless blood levels are high enough and mine is the standard low dose.The longer without meds the sicker you get, I will stand on my soapbox about this disease because if your mother has a bulls eye she has potential health problems for a long time even with antibotics , and will have them without.Good luck,

--------------------
Trina

Posts: 64 | From Mo. | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michelle M
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Hello, Sally.

How very cool that you are looking after your Mom.

I have a neat black lab named "Sally."

I am your neighbor to the north, also in California.

I can definitively tell you, it doesn't necessarily take four days for a rash to appear. That's a guideline, but 'taint set in stone.

I was bitten by a micro-tick, I am talking incredibly micro, under my right breast. So tiny I could barely see it (alright, you funny people -- the tick, not the breast!). I pulled it off, pitched it, and forgot it.

Within two, count 'em, TWO days, a reddish circle appeared there, which I noticed while showering.

Because I am an idiot, I thought, "Hmm, I must not a got the head out or somethin'.."

The rash never got much bigger'n a quarter, but stayed firmly put for several weeks.

I ignored it, to my peril, blissfully convinced lyme disease was an east coast thing.

A'course, even NOW, with full blown late stage lyme disease and babesia WA1, I can see that local doctors wouldn't have been much help. Local neurologist recently viewing MRI brain films showing numerous frontal lobe brain lesions remarked, "EM rash is just allergic reaction to tick bite."

Sigh...

Act while in that golden window of opportunity, no matter how you gotta work it.

California ticks are a nasty brew.

Good luck to your Mom!

Michelle

Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bettyg
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Welcome Trina, I was going to PM, private message, you but you have NOT ENABLED it. Please consider going in there so people can send you short, private notes vs. on the crowded board ok!

Breaking this up into paragraphs and double spacing so we neuro lymies can read/comprehend. Trina, in the future, please hit the enter button often and double space please! Thanks! [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by Trina:
Hello,

I did get lyme disease this month.The tick was the tinyest of ticks.Believe me I never felt it,we had been morel mushroom hunting.I had overlooked two of the ticks on my back because they were so small.

A couple of days after mushroom hunting while looking in the mirror I noticed what I thought were a couple more moles than usual and thought knew I had missed a couple of tics.My daughter pulled them of with tweezers.

Yes,I got a bulls eye rash from one it started out small and got bigger.The first few days you think no big deal, you have no rash yet.

I did however get a gland in my neck that swelled, stiff neck, chills, itchy ect and feel tired.

I had an aunt who was terminaly ill and was helping take care of her (went mushroom hunting to get her some) and felt it was just a tick bite and I did not have the money or the time to go to the doctor and was probably just nervous.

By the time the funeral was over and I had the time for my sister who is a PA to look at it and prescribe me some antibiotics, she said oh yes it is lyme.

Only she like every other doctor only presribes 3 weeks .

If you will go to your local library and read the first 3 chapters on any lyme disease book, you will run not walk with your mother to the nearest doctor and insist on at least a month of antibiotics.

I have been taking Doxy for about 10 days know and the lymp nodes in my neck are still hurting.

I read in a library book last night that I am probalbly going to have some problams from this disease.

Meaning the little bugger was infected with another disease such as Bartonella.

Another thing the spirochetes rehatch every 4 weeks.So if you are not on antibiotics at least that long, you have a new batch of them in your sysetem.

This is not a rare disease by any means at all. Even doxy does not work unless blood levels are high enough and mine is the standard low dose.

The longer without meds the sicker you get, I will stand on my soapbox about this disease because if your mother has a bulls eye she has potential health problems for a long time even with antibotics, and will have them without.Good luck,

Glad to read you are educating yourself, and you have joined here to learn much more, and to read, read, and read!
Bettyg

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