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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Tonic Water for Babs--Yep--

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Author Topic: Tonic Water for Babs--Yep--
groovy2
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Hi All

I have been drinking Tonic Water for
about 5 months- it has Quinine in it --

Amazingly it Really Helps with Babs--

My babs symptoms drop to almost zero
after I added it to my treatment--

Its Cheap- Easy to find-
Effective and Tastes Horriable -

What more could a person ask?

So I am giving Tonic water the
-- Groovy -- Stamp of Approvial -

I have been drinking 1.5 to 3 quarts
aday-

I have drank so much tonic water over
the last 5 months it almost tastes OK -

I get the diet kind -- and
allow much of the fizz to bubble off--
before drinking--

Swallowing Doxi with tonic water is
not a good idea tho- upsets my stomic -

Also Tonic Water made me Herx when I
first started drinking it--

Try it- Really has Helped me--Jay--

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Jon
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Interesting, I remember reading this earlier on these forums.

Perhaps it was not the tonic water, but the medication that eventually brought your babs symptoms to zero?

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jwenny
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Hey Jay,

Thanks for the tonic water tip!

Another product I noticed w/ Quinine is Hyland's Leg cramp

http://www.hylands.com/products/legcramps.php

Has anyone tried this? I have not tried this and just curious as I ran across at Whole Foods.

Best Wishes!

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Marnie
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``Where can one find other fluorescent compounds?

Quinine, found in tonic water, will
glow blue if you pour some into a clear plastic cup and shine UV light onto it.''

That's the nitrogen, I think, showing up. Nitrogen plays a huge part in forming various proteins.

``Nature abounds with nitrogen compounds, many of which occur in plants and are referred to as alkaloids.

Structural formulas for some representative alkaloids and other nitrogen containing natural products are displayed below, and we can recognize many of the basic structural features listed above in their formulas.

Thus, Serotonin and Thiamine are 1-amines, Coniine is a 2-amine, Atropine, Morphine and Quinine are 3-amines, and Muscarine is a 4-ammonium salt.

Conversely urinary alkalinisers e.g. acetazolamide and

sodium bicarbonate may

increase quinine blood levels with potential for

TOXICITY.''

To see what drugs quinine interacts with:

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic3/quinine_ad.htm

Diseases causing a negative nitrogen balance...real disruptive! All it takes is for one amino acid to be insufficient -> negative nitrogen balance.

Bottom line: too acidic due to bicarbonate loss. Say that over and over. Acidic due to bicarbonate loss.

Need more ATP to drive (restore) the Na-K pump to help the amino acid (nitrogen rich) transport systems.

In acidosis there is too much Na and Hydrogens IN the cells. Normally Na is outside the cell..and is exchanged for K which is supposed to be inside the cells. The pump Na-K pump (in-out-in-out) doesn't work when ATP is too low.

ATP comes from nutrients. We don't "store" ATP.

Normally we make ATP from nutrients via 2 means...using sugar (2 ATP) or oxygen (36 ATP). Since Bb prefers the sugar route...not enough ATP.

How to raise ATP? Supply more of the nutrients to make it...

Possible? Yep.

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Jill E.
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I drink tonic water, too, for the quinine but nowhere near the large doses you do. I'm just trying to keep a little quinine in my system until I can begin Babs treatment. The tonic water was a tip I got from a Lyme naturopath.

Thanks, Marnie, for the link to the quinine adverse reactions and drug interactions. There are certainly medications listed that many Lyme patients may be on such as Rifampin.

I LOVE the taste of tonic water, especially when you put a squeeze of lime into it.

I've known of several people (non-Lymies) who use quinine tablets for restless leg syndrome, but I always warn them to be aware that quinine can have toxicity.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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johnnyb
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Tonic Water? BLECH! Tastes terrible!

And yet this is a REALLY good tip, esp for those of us with babs symptoms but no dx and unable to get mepron.

Thanks Groovy!

(can I say BLECH! again anyway?) [Wink]

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Foggy
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I use the Diet Scheppes, hey, gotta watch the calories. [Smile]
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johnnyb
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Stuff I found regarding increasing ATP (possible suggestions on what to take):

"Creatine is an amino acid. It is normally produced in the body from arginine, glycine and methionine. Creatine plays a vital role in cellular energy production as creatine phosphate (phosphocreatine) in regenerating adenosine triphosphate (ATP) in skeletal muscle. Without ATP, muscle contraction is not possible. Oral administration of creatine increases muscle stores and may increase muscle strength and improve exercise performance. In the diet, creatine is found in meat and fish - although cooking destroys most of it."

My brother used to take creatine to "get more cuts." It is a bodybuilding supplement.

This was an interesting article on what ATP is and does (I think they try to sell stuff though):
http://www.restoreunity.org/concepts_of_aging.htm

Saw a site with a product called Optygen, and it said it contains the following to enhance ATP production:
"Calcium pyruvate, sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, adenosine and d-ribose all play critical roles in glycolysis and the citric acid cycle, leading to efficient ATP production."

Now, I am not a chemist, but I guess we can search on the individual ingredients or find supplements like that one, which contain ATP boosting ingredients.

Seems like stuff that would help bodybuilders get more muscle energy would be good for us tired lymies, anyway!

- JB

[ 14. July 2006, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: johnnyb ]

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johnnyb
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Here's a link to a website where Fibromyalgia patients were treated with malic acid and magnesium (doses are listed) to increase energy through increasing ATP production:

http://www.vitasentials.com/atp.htm

Maybe something to try?

[ 14. July 2006, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: johnnyb ]

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johnnyb
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Hey, sorry if I went off topic on this post.

BTW, Jay, BLECH!!! How the hell do you drink that much of this stuff?

I got some tonight and I hate it!

- JB

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Carol in PA
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Johnny....go to http://tinyurl.com/ so that you can "fix" those long url's that you posted.

Everyone else, you can click on the "printer-friendly view of this topic" on the bottom left of the page.

I just happen to be sitting here, sipping a glass of Schweppes Tonic Water.
Hmmm...it really would be better with a splash of gin....

Carol

p.s. I've got to look into that info about increasing the ATP.
Johnny, thanks for the links.

[ 14. July 2006, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Carol in PA ]

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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol in PA:
Johnny....go to http://tinyurl.com/ so that you can "fix" those long url's
that you posted.

Everyone else, you can click on the "printer-friendly view of this topic" on
the bottom left of the page.


I just happen to be sitting here, sipping a glass of Schweppes Tonic Water.
Hmmm...it really would be better with a splash of gin....

Carol

Cheers, Carol!
and thanks for the printer friendly view hint. I usually just skip the wide threads.

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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johnnyb
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol in PA:
Johnny....go to http://tinyurl.com/ so that you can "fix" those long url's
that you posted.

Wow that is cool! I didn't know you could do that!
Thanks! [Smile]

I can't drink it. I remember hating it when I was a kid and I STILL can't drink it [puke]

found this:
http://www.rain-tree.com/quinine-powder.htm

(I think that link is short enough to not tinyurl it)

Seems like you have to be really careful not to overdose on this though.

- JB

P.S. - fixed the links. It included the yahoo redirect as part of it I think.

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Marnie
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Johnny...shorten the first link (edit your post) using this:

http://www.restoreunity.org/concepts_of_aging.htm

And the second link using this:

http://www.vitasentials.com/atp.htm

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stella marie
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Ya know Jay.....

Before I was dx w/ the LD I would have a gin and tonic and boy did I feel like crap the next day!

Now I know why.

--------------------
Stella Marie

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Thereminator
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What about useing Ribose for incresing ATP?
Yeah...Groovy,Im drinking it every day.Its not bad (very cold)...on a hot day. Alan

--------------------
Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~
Our Moto:
"Take No Prisoners"

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groovy2
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Hi All

I want to make sure that folks realize that
that I am taking more than just drinking
Tonic water to hammer the babs bugs--

Babs is a Very strong bug so you have to go
after it in any way you can--

At the moment I am taking Bactrim DS-4X
Artemisinin 12X- and Tonic water-

Soon I am going to add some Zith and
Quinine sulfate pills--

Bottoms Up--Jay--

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bobdavis
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I am also a big fan of tonic water. I have been drinking it for about 5 years. It is also good for leg cramps, it is a muscle relaxer.

One might argue that there is too little quinine in tonic water. However if you understand homeopathy you will know that some things are stronger when diluted! That is why they call things 10x or 20x. That is the amount of times it is diluted.

Tonic water, if I remember right, is about 70 mg/liter of quinine so you would have to drink 7 liters for a 500mg dose. To treat malaria the starting does is 2000mg, that is 28 liters!

I know of international travelers that drink tonic water to prevent malaria. They say it works with none of the side effects of other malaria preventatives.

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Dave6002
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Tonic water=Canada Dry? or what? Thanks
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char
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Does anyone here have experience or opinion about Biaxin plus tonic water?

I am taking 1,000mg Biaxin which I tolerate well and herx, but am knocked flat as to be unable to care for my herxing kids.

Tonic water sounds like a gentle addition...

Char

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Jill E.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave6002:
Tonic water=Canada Dry? or what? Thanks

There are several brands of tonic water. Canada Dry, Schwepps, but also my local grocery store has their own private label for much less. Just look that it says it contains Quinine on the label. All the brands of tonic water I've purchased do contain quinine.

The choice is whether you want the regular tonic water that contains sugar (not so great for yeast) or the diet tonic water that contains artificial sweeteners (something many of us try to avoid), so that's the only downside.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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Dave6002
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Thanks Jill for the detailed information.

I may give it a try, since seems there is no effective therapy for Babs, although many are on Mepron/Arz/Arte, which is harsh to the body.

Dave

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Bothrops
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The tonic water idea sounds good, I will have to try it. As far as the magnesium/malic acid, I would try it but have not been able to find any info that proves it works. I have seen plenty of sites that CLAIM it works and they all have a BUY IT button.

So in other words I could go to Eckerds and buy the cheap stuff at the same dossage and it wont help a thing! Reason being I did not buy there product.

Ya!

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LYMESCIENCE
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Here are the real doses of Quinine in Tonic Water. Because they are so incredibly low, I'd suggest only using this if its the LAST resort, but I think it could be quite helpful if you are already on Mepron.


http://www.wholefoods.com/healthinfo/quinine.html


Quinine
Quinine is a naturally occurring alkaloid (caffeine is another common alkaloid) isolated from the bark of several species of Cinchona trees. It gives beverages such as tonic water and bitters their distinctive flavor. Once considered potentially dangerous, quinine in tonic water is thought to be safe. In fact, consumers seeking the distinctive flavor of quinine report that there are no adequate alternatives to the real thing.
As a flavoring agent it is approved for use by FDA in beverages at levels up to 83 PPM (parts per million). This translates into about 83 milligrams per quart. Different manufacturers vary on the exact amount of quinine they use. One major brand, for example, says their tonic water has about 20 milligrams per 6 ounces. Its competitor will not state the specifically the concentration they use, only that they are in compliance with FDA regulations.

As with so many ingredients, dose really does make the poison. At very low levels (up to 83 PPM) quinine is a flavor. At higher levels (167 to 333 milligrams three times per day), it has been used to effectively treat malaria, digestive problems, heart palpitations, hemorrhoids, varicose veins, and leg cramps. It is important to note that to achieve a therapeutic dose of quinine from tonic water, a person would have to drink between 6 and 12 quarts in a 24-hour period. And even at this amount, quinine would not necessarily cause problems, because individual reactions to it are quite variable. At higher levels than those allowed in beverages, quinine does have the potential to cause side effects such as rashes, itching, nausea, ringing of the ears, dizziness, headaches, and even birth defects. (These problems disappear when use is discontinued). In 1994, FDA decided to prohibit the sale of over-the-counter leg cramp remedies that contained quinine so as to prevent problems such as those just described. Yet it remains approved for non-therapeutic use in beverages.

In sum, normal consumption of tonic water appears to be safe. If an individual were to consume excessive amounts, then problems could arise. But to put things into perspective, the estimated fatal dose of quinine is 25 times that of the amount approved for use in beverages. To get such a dose, a person would have to drink 25 quarts of tonic water in one sitting!


References
US Code of Federal Regulations
(FDA-21CFR 172.575)
Food Additives Handbook
Richard Lewis, Editor
Van Nostrand Reinhold
New York, NY

On Food and Cooking: The Science and Lore of the Kitchen
Harold McGee

Tufts University Health and Nutrition Letter
November 1997

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groovy2
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Hey Char

I take Biaxin and drink tonic water
at the same time-no problem--

I read the amount of quinine in tonic water
is .02 percent --not much --
but it Sure Helps --

I have drank so much of this tastey liquid
its almost going down smooooth --

I should have kept track but Im sure I have
downed around 240 liters --

Thats enough to float a small boat -Jay-

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Lyme Gypsy
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Thanks for the tip. can I add Gin to that, & maybe Some lemon. Hey it would improve the taste. OK just the Lemon [Big Grin]

Love & Light,
Yemaya

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