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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Questions: Dogs, TBDs, testing....

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Author Topic: Questions: Dogs, TBDs, testing....
Truthfinder
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If anyone can answer any of these questions or give any additional information, I would appreciate it.

1. My vet had a ``Tick Panel'' test done on my dog from IDEXX labs. Does anyone know if these Tick Panel tests are particularly accurate?
It tests for:

``Ehrlichia Canis AB IFA''
``Lyme Titer''
``Rocky Mountain Spotted Fvr'' (don't know what kind of test it is)

2. Has anyone had their dog (or cat) tested at Bowen Research for Lyme (or anything else)?

3. Has anyone tested their dog for Babesia, and if so, did you use the IFA test and from what lab? Is there more than one strain of Babesia that has to be tested for in dogs?
(My dog had a small amount of bililrubin and a small amount of blood in his urine. The ONLY thing I could find on the Internet that included both of these abnormalities was Babesia. My vet has never tested for Babesia before so I may need to provide him with info on a lab that can do the testing.)

Thanks -

Tracy

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymied
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I was told my vet that the Snap 3Dx test is actually testing for proteins of lyme and ehrlichia not the antibodies like the Elisa.

In the case of my dog who had been tested once before when she was profoundly ill six months after she contracted I suspect Ehrlichia and Lyme and had tested negatively on PCR testing (for DNA of the bacteria) and now that she is a two years out from being sick and has recovered nicely she finally tested positive. In my opinion PCR testing is not always accurate depending on the lab.

I paid upwards of $350.00 for a Babesia, Ehrlichia, and Lyme PCR but the Snap test was only $54.20.

I would start with the SNAP 3Dx. It finally gave my dog and I some answers. If it is negative in your dog's case and you still want to pursue PCR testing then go for it then.

In our case thank goodness I finally just treated my dog myself...with in two weeks her six months of hell started to come to an end and she got better on doxy.

2. I have not tested my pets through Bowen and don't know if you can.

3. In the case of my dog she was tested for Babesia, but only B.Canis. B. Canis is a strain that can have 3 substrains. B. Gibsoni is the other identified strain but is less common in the US.

If you try googling 'babesia in dogs' you will pull up some good info. on it.

We tested her for babesia with the PCR test from a lab I am not going to mention and it was negative on my dog. I really feel that she is positive for it as well. She has some clinical symptoms which point to it but because she is stable now I have chosen not to go forward with treatment because it can be pretty intense in dogs (Imidocarb treatment) and it is not something you want to do unless you know for sure that your dog is positive.

Please feel free to contact me privately. I would be happy to give you information on the vet I see now that I believe has the best handle on tick borne illness then any vet I have ever seen.

Take care...

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Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right. - Ezre Taft Benson

Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymied
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http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/laboratory/c6/c6whitepaper.pdf

This is a good paper on the Idexx panel...

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Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right. - Ezre Taft Benson

Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Truthfinder
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First, yes you can have both cats and dogs tested at Bowen . It is now on their website. But you have to have your vet contact them for info and pricing. See the bottom of this page:

http://www.bowen.org/NewSite/LimeDisease.html

(Incidentally, I just wrote to Bowen and asked about the cost of Lyme testing for dogs. I just wrote yesterday so no word yet. Also, I informed them that they misspelled ``Lyme'' in the above link, and that they really ought to fix that. I asked them about a few other things, too.)

Second, my dog was negative for all tests, but if he were a human, that would make me want to get more tests. I just wasn't sure if the same was true in the dog world.

Third, I can only guess that this IDEXX ``Tick Panel'' my vet had done is similar to the Snap 3Dx test, because there is nothing on my copy of the test results that indicate it is the 3Dx. The standard 3Dx tests for heartworm, and the test panel I had done does NOT. But Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever was added instead. So, I've started off a bit confused.

I can't be absolutely sure that the test done for Lyme on my dog is the regular ELISA, but I think it is. What I do know is that it is not the Quantitative C6 ELISA. It appears that the standard ELISA is what IDEXX uses for initial screening, and they think it is reliable (well, of course, they would say that, wouldn't they?).

Joe, do you have evidence that the standard ELISA is not accurate for dogs?

I know the ELISA is not reliable in humans but can't find any evidence that the same hold true for dogs. I know that dogs respond quite a bit differently to Lyme treatment (abx) than humans do, so perhaps efficacy of tests is different, too.

And thanks very much, Joe, for the info on Protatek Reference Lab. I did already have that lab bookmarked as a place that is good for Babesia testing. You confirmed it.

Lymied, thank you for the info, and I'm glad to know that your dog is much better. I've Googled ``Babesia in dogs'' until I'm half-blind, and as you indicated, I sure don't want my dog to have Babesia. I'll PM you if I get bogged down with this.

Also, I did read the link you sent. It confused me at first, but then I realized what they were saying........ Gosh, sometimes I sure miss my mind.

Lastly, I looked at a map over at IDEXX that shows the incidence of positive Lyme test results in dogs in the USA. I was so shocked at what I saw that I may have to make a whole separate thread about it. I can't believe the difference (well, yes I can) between the CDC human ``incidence'' maps and this dog incidence map.

Check it out:
http://www.idexx.com/animalhealth/testkits/3dx/lymemap.htm

I think we should all start getting tests ordered by our vets instead of trying to talk sense into our ducks about Lyme.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Tracy

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Truthfinder
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Hey, Joe, I'm not a vet or anything so can't become a member of IVIS........

From what I had heard, abx treatment for Lyme in dogs usually resolved the symptoms, unlike humans who may have symptoms worsen and persist. So this was news to me.

Well, I hope I hear from Bowen soon. I think I will have my dog tested there just for my own peace of mind. If my dog tests positive, then I get the pleasure of seeing my vet's jaw hit to the floor. That might be fun.

Great quote, by the way.

Thanks for the info -

Tracy

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LymeLaura
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Take a look at the following link which describes continued infection in dogs after treatment with antibiotics:
www.canlyme.com/beagles

I have had to treat my own dogs off and on for over 3 years. My vet is in agreement. One dog occasionally tests positive, the other never.

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Lymied
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Here is a site that contains info. on signing up for the TICK-L listserve. I know some members here have disagreed with advice there but I find it is a group of people who are quite knowledgable.

http://www.minden.com/nowhereelse/canine_tick_disease.htm

You do have to post to the list-serve in PLAIN text if you don't or your email application does not allow you to be ready to hear the list serve members go ballistic. Because my email program is web based and they haven't built in the ability to just send in plain text I only lurk and receive daily digests.

There are also some good links on that site.

Take care!

Lymied

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Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right. - Ezre Taft Benson

Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
5dana8
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Sorry to hear about your dog [Frown]

there are 100 strains of babesia and currently only tests for 2 of them.

I had my babsesia test thru igenex. 1-800-833-3200.
You could call them. Don't know why they wouldn't test dogs.

If people get babesia thru a tick bite, I don't know why a dog wouldn't.

here is a good webb for dogs with lyme:

If you click on "webb sites" at the very bottom then click on a link called "Canine Tick Disease" - babesiosis is mentioned

http://www.minden.com/nowhereelse/canine_tick_disease.htm

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5dana8

Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Truthfinder
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Lymelaura, that was an interesting study, but like most Lyme studies, it left me with quite a few questions. I wonder why in the world they did not allow at least 1 dog from each group to survive, just to see if arthritis or other symptoms would crop up at some later time.

Also, it was interesting to note that PCR testing does not differentiate between'' live'' or ``dead'' DNA fragments. I had not thought about that. That might be important when testing specimens who have received some type of treatment.

Lymied and Dana, thanks for the link. Lots of good info there, even if I don't sign up for the Tick-L listserve thing. I've spent quite a bit of time there already.

Dana, according to Joe, Igenex can't test animal samples because of California law.

Oh, Joe, you are such a sly dog...... [Cool]

I still have not heard back from Bowen. Nor have I heard back from my vet who was going to check to see if he dealt with a lab who could test for Babesiosis. *sigh* I think I need to go get a ``second opinion'' from another vet I know. He helped me get appropriate treatment for my cat once. Besides, he is the only vet in town that I have not ``interviewed'' regarding TBDs in our area.

Tracy

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
david1097
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Take a look at www.healthgene.com. They do strictly PCR and are supposed to be pretty good at it. They test for a lot of different things (including so not so common things that can eb tick bourne) and their prices are pretty good.
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Truthfinder
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Thanks, David. I'm not sure that PCR is the way I want to go, though. But I sure like having options, so I appreciate the info.

Tracy

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Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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