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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Teasel Root Or Neem Leaf or Oil?

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Author Topic: Teasel Root Or Neem Leaf or Oil?
Annxyz
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Has anyone here tried these herbs which are antinfective ? I am trying to gather info for alternatives . Neem is supposed to be powerful , but I can only find a little info on it .

I would appreciate any info others here could come up with , and it may benefit others who are desperate and can not do ABX.

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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MariaA
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Ok, I do teasel, but I dont' notice a HUGE difference in how I feel. That said, I did get a sort of herx from it and almost nothing makes me herx.

IT's specific for Lyme-related arthritis according to Buhner. I rarely get that kind of pain. When I herxed on it I got mild, roving arthritic joint pains for a day, so I assume it's getting to Lyme (or bartonella) from somewhere even though most of my other symptoms were gone by then.

I found a guy on eBay who wildcrafts it and a bottle lasts a very long time.

I dont think that you'll treat Lyme with it alone- that's been tried and it only works for some people. Buhner speculates that this may be because it's specific for one strain of Borellia as a single herb (I hope I "m paraphrasing the book correctly).

I"ve heard of a few people trying it prior to Buhner Protocol but few of them have the kind of success that herbalist Matthew Wood attributes to it (it actually was discovered as a Lyme treatment around the time I got Lyme initially, and I wish I'd have been well enough at that point to get my hands on some because I certainly heard about it then)

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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MariaA
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The two sources of teasel root tincture I;ve found

http://stores.ebay.com/Herb-Works (this is the stuff I herxed on, and I think we should support this fellow Lymie as he's trying to actually grow the stuff this year and almost no one does so)

these folks grow it also and they also grow artemisia annua and donate it to refugees in Africa to prevent malaria, so they seem like very good people to support as well:
http://www.localharvest.org/store/item.jsp?id=7189

Their teasel only comes in tiny bottles, which is probably OK as you use very little per dose.

There was a third seller somewhere that I found on a search, but she didn't take credit cards so I never ordered from her.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Annxyz
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Maria, you are always a storehouse of information . Thank you for sharing this .
I will try it .

If you find any info on neem , let me know .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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MariaA
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thanks, I"m not a storehouse, I"m just a few months ahead of you in the treatment I think...

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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MariaA
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Are you looking for an alternative to andrographis or something like that, or just trying to learn more about other antibiotic herbs?

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Annxyz
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Maria, I am looking for alternatives to andrographis , which caused intense herxing
( a good sign ) but other problems for me .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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GiGi
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I used Spironil, aka teasel root, quite a bit.
It's still used by Dr. K. after ART testing.

Take care.

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hardynaka
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Neem is not a good herb according to Buhner. Not to treat chronic infections, I mean. I guess he said that in Planet trhive.

I had bought a few bottles of neem, now I think they'll go to the garbage, unfortunately. They never tested good through ART for me since the beginning.

Coptis is VERY strong. My body just couldn't accept it. Nothing to do with herxes, just herb intolerance. 1/3 capsule /day was enough to cause me strong kidney pains. Buhner believes it's not a herb against borrelia, but against intestinal parasites.

Gigi, thanks for the input! Glad you're still around!

Annxyx: alternatives to andrographis would be stephania root (according to Buhner) and keep on going with knotweed (he thinks this is herb number 1 now in his core protocol, according to feedback he receives from people, more than andro).

Artemisia annua is VERY POWERFUL TOO. Much more than teasel in my experiece. Whatever artemisia annua hit, it hit strong (I had not babesia when I took artemisia annua).

I believe it helps immensely with borrelia. It tested good through ART a few times for me. But I wonder if it can be taken long term (probably better to rotate between artemisia, teasel, stephania). My opinion.

Possibly try some of Seven Forest Forumulas John suggests?

Or other killers as suggested by Gigi ?

Good luck,
Selma

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Annxyz
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Selma,
I looked up stephania root and no one else seems to think it has antibiotic properties .
The articles I find mention it for athritis .
It seems someone else would have documented it as an antiinfective, but I am finding no literature that does.

Does the stephania cause herxing?

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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lalalu
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I have a bit of neem in some of the Tibetan herbs I take. It is also called Azadirachta Indica A. Juss.

See: http://www.answers.com/topic/neem

Some other names are Bead treet, Chinaberry, Indian cedar, Indiian Lilac, Margosa, Margosa Treet Nimtree.

Maybe those will pull up some info as well.

--------------------
http://chroniclyme.blogspot.com/

"Illnesses, hover constantly above us, their seed blown by the winds, but they do not set in the terrain unless the terrain is ready to receive them."---Claude Bernard.

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lalalu
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OOOpppps, spelling mistake ...that is Bead tree. Also, I am taking this under the supervision of a Tibetan doctor - no adverse effects.

--------------------
http://chroniclyme.blogspot.com/

"Illnesses, hover constantly above us, their seed blown by the winds, but they do not set in the terrain unless the terrain is ready to receive them."---Claude Bernard.

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MariaA
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I got eye symptoms that I think were a herx, when I took stephania.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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GiGi
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Stephania Root (Stephania tetrandra and S. cepharantha)

Peer review literature/Science:

Effective against:

Potent anti-inflammatory
Alopecia
Radiation injury (leukemia)
Asthma
Induces IL-1 beta, IL-alpha, TNF-a, IL-6, Il-8 (especially in CNS and joints)
Reduces NF-kappa B and IL-6 during neuroborreliosis
Modulates HLA-DR expression (Lyme arthritis connected to CD3 generated HLA-DR alleles)
Treatment of silicosis (also breast implant immune complications)
Protects endothelium from endotoxin damage
Reduces vascular permeability
Bell's palsy
Free radical scavenger
Inhibits toxic glutamate levels in brain
Ca-channel blocker
Asthma and heart disease
Retinopathy (modulates formation of new blood vessels and improvement in vision)

Malaria (and Babesia)
Inhibits cancer cell proliferation
Anti-fibrotic/anti-scar formation
Blocks abnormal histamine release/stabilizes mast cells

Dosage: 1:5 tincture of both forms of Stephania, 1/2 to 1 tsp. t.i.d.

Contraindication: use judgment when using together with Ca-channel blockers.
Constipation. May potentiate the effect of other drugs.


Take care.

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hardynaka
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Annxyx,

Did you buy the book of Buhner? I wonder how do you want to start using his herbs if you haven't bought the book yet...

I strongly recommend the book, read contraindications, interactions of each herb you take. If you go for a surgery (even a dental surgery) and you're on the core protocol herbs, you may get into deep trouble.

Stephania: page 147-8: antiarthritic, anti inflammatoriy, antifibrotic, antiparasitic, antitumor, antibacterial, drug synergist, anti asthmatic...

Specific indications: ocular involvment, bell's palsy, lyme arthritis, neuroborreliosis, antibiotic-resistant lyme arthritis, late stage lyme infections of nervous system, joints and skin. Caution if you got lyme carditis.

Tet (a component in the herb) can even kill malarial parasites (p.151). Cepharantine (another component) possesses antimicrobial actions agains TB, leprosy and malaria (mild).

Side effect: constipation.

Be extremely careful when buying this herb as it's similar to Aristolochia fangchi, that is DEADLY if taken in tincture form. There were many deaths in Belgium some time ago due to this confusion.

So only buy from known tested sources. Plum Flower brand test it before selling.

See contraindications as it's a potent calcium-channel blocker.

the ONLY reason why stephania is not in the core protocol, is that it's a difficult herb to be found (p.146)

It does seem to be a herb with antiparasitic, antibacterial, antiprotozoan properties then.

buy the book!! Only about 15 dollars.

Selma

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Annxyz
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selma,
yess I have the book and I am not taking the herbs because of side effects with andrographis . I am not comfortable risking estrogen increase with the resveratrol , which Buhner downplays . Not everyone agrees with him on this after reading quite a bit .

I liked the killing power of andro with pathogens very much , but six weeks of insomnia and not being able to taste my food made it evident that it did not agree with my brain chemistry . I also felt nervous on it .
So far , no one else seems to react as I have . Pretty much everyone else sails along fine and then starts feeling better , like you , Maria, and Jim Bob. The herxing became tolerable, but the side effects were not something I could cope with for a year .

I did look up stephania root and every place I searched made NO mention whatsoever , of it being antiinfective - just placed an emphasis on its targeting arthritis problems .

As a matter of fact this is what the book has it listed next to : neuroborelliosis , lyme arthritis, and ocular borelliosis.

I am a bit surprsed that he is now saying that it is a pathogen killer as a primary part of his protocol . His book gives me the impression that he indicated stephania root for lyme inflammation issues . The other info ( I do not read only Buhner's opinion ) I found also wrote that stephania was indicated for inflammation historically in its use .

I will consider it as an antiinfective to try , but I can not find another source that marks its use for anything but inflammation.

I will keep reading though .

Stephania is mentioned ( in his book ) NOT in the core protocol , but in the section on inflammation due to coinfections.

I encourage anyone reading this to read the book and give the protocol a try because others here are having good results with the three main herbs , and they have been used for MANY MANY years in other countries and found to be generally safe . Buhner gives an impressive amount of references to studies that have been done on the herbs that are part of the core protocol .

I think ( for those who can tolerate them ) the herbs could be very useful , not only in lyme but with other bacteria and Viruses .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Annxyz
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Selma, Maria, Gigi , Thank you for taking the time to share this . Your info is very helpful ! I am especially glad ( GIGI ) to be informed that stephania root can potentiate other meds , since I take anti depressants and
thyroid meds .

Selma, your suggestion to try the Seven Forest formula is helpful . Even though I could not try concentrated ANDRO this might be a good option !

I really appreciate the feedback !

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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hardynaka
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Annxyx, I guess you have neuroborreliosis?

If so, I'll repeat again here only the answer you're searching for:

Stephania: page 147-8: antiparasitic, antibacterial. He said later, anti-protozoan too.

So he means, it's a multiple-sided killer too!!

the ONLY reason why stephania is not in the core protocol, is that it's a difficult herb to be found (See page 146, he clearly states that).

Very dangerous herb to take if not from a tested source due to possible mistakes (mistaken with other herbs).

I don't know if stephania is too expensive. I would give a try if I were you. But re-read again contraindications, side effects from his book.

I'm sorry you can't take andro.

But I feel artemisia annua is potent too. You could try this too (but I think for me, it's even stronger than andrographis...). I wouldn't stay so long on artemisia, and as I told you before, I would rotate it with TEASEL too.

I also took gardenia and forsythia in decoctions, I feel they can also help (but I never took these for long as I didn't need, my borrelia symptoms just went down and down basically with B's herbs only).

I improved practically without knotweed, for example. So I was not on 100% core protocol, like you. Not all guys can tolerate all herbs. And the toleration can vary during treatment. I dropped sarsaparilla in the end too.

Cats claw for me is also very strong (not as a killer though, but the plant is strong for my kidneys). I was thinking to keep it in my maintenance protocol, but it's going to be hard as even one capsule/day is giving me kidney pains now.

I guess the best way to know if herbs work for you and if you can tolerate them, is to try them, after reading the available info careful. And start very slow. And maybe, keep on low doses, if you're the sensitive type (like me).

I never had to ramp up too high to get all benefits. I never ramped high in ANY of the core protocol herbs. The only thing I take in loads are cleansers.

Did you try to take 1/4 pill andro A DAY ??

Did you have to stop due to strong herxes or due to herb intolerance ? (sorry I forgot the reason...)

It took me very long to get used to cats claw only (about 2 MONTHS!), for me it was the most difficult herb of core protocol in terms of time to adjust...

Each person is different.

Good luck!
Selma

I had bad experiences with knotweed. I re-started this again, low doses, and now I'm ramping up. My body seems to be accepting the stronger doses (still minimum though compared to what people take).

As for drug potentialization action, Buhner speak of it in his book. Just re-read it, you'll get new insights.

I know what it is to have neuroborreliosis. Unfortunately, you'll have to be reading again and again to refresh your mind...

Good luck,
Selma

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hardynaka
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Sorry double signature! I'm getting sleeeepy.....
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