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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Persecution of Alternatives

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Author Topic: Persecution of Alternatives
SForsgren
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Interesting article...

http://bioredox.mysite.com/ABOUT/society.htm

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Greatcod
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Somewhat paranoid, IMO. Of the millions of medical professionals who have lost loved ones to cancer, or have loved ones with chronic conditions--sick and dying desperate people, that those medical and busiess people would tolerate repression of successful treatments of those condions doesn't make sense.
Too many medical professional are decent and dedicated human beings. The idea that the best and brightness of human society work to
keep people sick and dying is silly.

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TerryK
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Consider the politics of lyme disease. Read the history and persecution of people who proposed some very promising treatments for cancer such as Essiac and Hoxsey. Read the history of Rife. History is replete with examples.

Reading this forum alone provides ample evidence that his points are true. My personal experience and that of my family members is plenty of proof for me.

quote:
that those medical and busiess people would tolerate repression of successful treatments of those condions doesn't make sense.
I think this one applies here:

From the link that Scott provided:
"Presummption 2) is unlikely because a high percentage of people reject new information out of hand and will not investigate for themselves. In my personal observation as a physician, I have found it to be quite common for people to reject word of mouth suggestions from family members, coworkers, friends, and other associates. There are exceptions, but most of the time good news is rejected even when the success was notably substantial. Many will disbelieve if their personal doctor has not advised in favor of the alternative in question. This is true even when another doctor has repeatably positive experiences and highly advocates the alternative. Many will disbelieve even if their own doctor advocates the alternative just because it is different."

Terry

[ 20. October 2007, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]

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Greatcod
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If Rife is such an effective treatment of this that and the other, why hasn't one or more large manufactures of medical equiptment(GE and others)
taken on the idea, modified it so as to secure a patient, and made tens of millions marketing it.
Seems like a no brainer.
Big business is wealther and more powerfull than Big Medicine, so why no?
And the same priniciple applies toother treatments. Big Pharma could certainly do the same thing with other miracle cures..actually,
a small pharaceutical company could become huge if the product worked a s well as is claimed by the promoters.

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GiGi
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A machine we normally by once. Pharma drugs people take for a lifetime, with few exceptions.

Money.

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Robin123
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Even Ignaz Semmelweiss, the Hungarian doctor, was persecuted for suggesting that doctors should wash their hands between surgeries so as not to spread germs.
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Truthfinder
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Terry, GiGi, and Robin are absolutely right.

GC, do you know ANY of the history of the American Medical Association, and the `scientific' movement in medicine?

Do you know who the major players were (are) in the ``eugenics' movement (improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding), which was popular prior to WWII? Yeah, the same people who helped form the new AMA in the early part of this century.

Here's just a tiny bit of what has happened to lead us to where we are today.......

********************************************

[An interesting little preface here: John D. Rockefeller actually had a preference for homeopathy and used it during his long lifetime - in fact, Mr. Rockefeller, personally, had a homeopathic physician with him all the time. But, Mr. Rockefeller also realized that more and more of his wealth would depend on "chemicals" which were never used by the homeopathic doctors. So, Rockefeller decided to make his charitable donations to medical schools that would "modernize" and follow the new scientific (drugs) approach to health care. So, for economic reasons, he became `invested' in medical science, and actually funded the movement that would undertake the demise of homeopathic education in this country.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller
http://www.oralchelation.net/heartdisease/ChapterOne/page1.htm

[Also, I've read that the Rockefeller Foundation helped found the German eugenics program and even funded the program that Josef Mengele worked in before he went to Auschwitz. ..... you can investigate that one yourself....]

Takeover of the American Medical Association
This sad state of affairs is directly traceable to the takeover of the American Medical Association by the Carnegie and Rockefeller foundations in the early part of the twentieth century.

At the turn of the century the medical community was in a sad state of disrepair. There were no qualifications to become a doctor. If one wanted to be a doctor it was only necessary to hang out a shingle and start the practice of medicine. Medical schools were poorly financed, often taught contradictory medical philosophies and had little impact on the practice of medicine. In 1910 the American Medical Association, todays AMA, was on the verge of bankruptcy....

It was in this environment that Rockefeller and Carnegie moved in and bought the AMA and then used it to take control of the entire United States medical establishment. In 1910, Henry Prichard president of the Carnegie foundation, bought control of the AMA for the sum of $10,000. He then financed the publication of the Flexner report, as it was then called, to gain popular support for the changes that were to be made in the medical community.

With public backing secured by the publication of the Flexner report, Carnegie and Rockefeller commenced a major upgrade in medical education by financing only those medical schools that taught what they wanted taught. Predictably, those schools that had the financing churned out the better doctors.

In return for the financing, the schools were required to teach course material that was exclusively drug oriented. [That is because Rockefeller and Carnegie families were heavily invested in the drug industry.] That is why today our doctors are so heavily biased toward synthetic drug therapy and know little or nothing about nutrition .

Dr. David Edsall, former dean of Harvard medical school, said "I was, for a period, a professor of Therapeutics and Pharmacology, [at Harvard] and I knew from experience that students were obliged then by me and by others to learn about an interminable number of drugs, many of which were valueless, many of them useless, some probably even harmful ...."

Treatment instead of cure
.........It was in 1949 that the medical community reorganized itself into the competing medical specialty groups we see today. Prior to 1949 a doctor was a doctor; he dealt with all disease and injury. After 1949 this was not so....

This was the turning point event that led to the removal of the word "cure" from the medical vocabulary. Today, if you mention the "c" word around your doctor he will usually glaze over and pretend not to hear you. He only responds to the word "treatment".

Under the Rockefeller and Carnegie influence, their pharmaceutical firms started to pour out the vast array of synthetic drugs that the doctors trained to their medical school standards now prescribed almost to the exclusion of any other remedies. Among the first drugs to be marketed this way were the oral hypoglycemic agents. They were deliberately designed to treat the symptom while not curing the disease.

Insurance fraud.
Since the name of the medical game was money, a means had to be devised to provide the patient with money that could only be used to pay for approved medical treatment. Enter the insurance company concept.....

In order to secure effective medical treatment from the alternative sector of the economy the patient must pay for it himself; insurance companies specifically exclude virtually all alternative treatment. One wonders why so many continue to pay for an insurance program that cannot, even in principle, be of any real benefit to them.

Government coercion in medical practice
In the ordinary course of events, good medicine would eventually drive out bad medicine. As more and more people discover ways to maintain and improve their health, without drug therapy, they will simply abandon bad medicine and resort to alternative therapies.

Indeed, this is happening. Also happening is a concerted government effort to discredit and declare unlawful those effective therapies that represent the greatest threat to orthodox medicine. In the last fifty years many effective cures have been developed for many of the major killer diseases that we have. In each instance the developer has been branded a quack, his business has been ruined and in some cases he has been sent to jail.

Even with outright governmental attacks on those that would promote effective therapies in America, the tide is turning. More and more Americans are waking up to the reality of our medical community. More and more they are finding it to be a fraud and they are turning to less conventional treatments and modalities.

Informed Americans that require effective medical treatment for anything more serious than a head cold are turning away from orthodox drug quackery in droves. The medical community is trying hard to make it illegal to refuse their treatment.,,,,,

Many believe that our Food and Drug Administration, FDA, represents the American people and that the FDA acts to insure that our food and drugs are safe and effective. Nothing could be further from the truth. The FDA acts entirely to restrain and manage competition between and among those that manufacture our food and drugs. They do this only for the purpose of minimizing competition in business. Rockefeller is famous for proclaiming the only sin is competition.

Willy Ley, a former head of the FDA, said it best when he said "What the Food and Drug Administration does and what the public thinks that it does are a different as night and day".

Today in America the practice of medicine is not free. It is one of the most tightly controlled commercial enterprises in the world. That is why it produces such extraordinary income for it's favored and such misery, disease and death for its victims.

Loveland, CO 80537 Copyright 2002 by Thomas Smith (970) 669-9176 All rights reserved

Thomas Smith is a reluctant medical investigator having been forced into seeking a cure for his own Diabetes because it was obvious that his doctor didn't have one. He has published the results of his successful Diabetes investigation in his best selling book entitled "Insulin: Our Silent Killer" written for the layman but also widely valued by the medical practitioner.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ama.htm#a

********************************************

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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johnlyme1
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Truthfinder:
[QB] Terry, GiGi, and Robin are absolutely right.

[An interesting little preface here: John D. Rockefeller actually had a preference for homeopathy and used it during his long lifetime - in fact, Mr. Rockefeller, personally, had a homeopathic physician with him all the time. But, Mr. Rockefeller also realized that more and more of his wealth would depend on "chemicals" which were never used by the homeopathic doctors. So, Rockefeller decided to make his charitable donations to medical schools that would "modernize" and follow the new scientific (drugs) approach to health care. So, for economic reasons, he became `invested' in medical science, and actually funded the movement that would undertake the demise of homeopathic education in this country.]

And if you dig a little deeper you will also see where much of this "modernized" veiw was the result of Pastuer's work and view that we should kill the microb that is causing the disease. The Rockefellers bought into this also. But you can find that Pastuer recanted this idea on his deathbed, the other camp (homeopathics) were right, the environment of the body is the key.

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SForsgren
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I agree that the environment / ecology in the body is absolutely the key. That's why metal chelation, removal of toxins, bowel cleansing, etc. are so important and why I contend that antibiotics alone will not result in a recovery from chronic lyme. One approach requires work on the part of the patient that wants to get well. The other does not. We have to take an active role in recovery and a program of popping antibiotic pills ALONE is not doing that in my opinion.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Greatcod
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I came to Lymenet with more loathing of conventional medicine because of what they have done to my life than most people here. But the climate here, about alternative and allopathic, made me reflect on the accomplishments of modern medical science.
First in the area of Public Health, it made
drinkable water and sewerage issues a priority.
Then there are its many other successes, in the areas of diagonistic tests, medical imagining,
surgery, prosthetics, anathesiology, and yes vaccines...
Look seriously at human life before those medsci accomplishments, and tell me its a vast conspiracy against cures..that's just nonsense.
Your arguements seem to be against the FDA and Big Pharma. Again look at the problems of food supply back in the begining of the 20th century, and the peddling of snake oil cures for all ailments. These were problems that cried out for solution, and the establishment of the FDA did that.
When it comes to Big Pharma, your criticisms center on the treatment of certain chronic conditions. First keep in mind that Big Pharma
produces some 5.000 different drugs, most of which have nothing to do with the chronic diseases that the alternative industry (and it is an industry, big time) claims to have developed cures for. These other thousands of drugs make live livable for billions of people.
When it comes to cancer, diabetes, Lyme, malaria and other illneses where are alternaive cures have been "supressesed", these claims to me take on the character of all "conspiracy theories"--
lots of smoke but no proof of fire.
Advances in many areas, included medicine, always undergo a rigorous process where the
orthodoxy is challenged, and the old slowly gives way to the new...that's just life..throw in the abolishment of slavery to the era of segregation to a more balanced system now..or the woman's movement, going from washing and cooking to running corporations to possibly the next president. New ideas are seldom quickly embraced..that's how we separate the pepper from the fly poop, by a long critical and painful analysis of the facts.

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SForsgren
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Personally, I prefer not to wait for years and years to see if the pepper or the fly poop wins out. Within some reasonable boundaries of safety, I'll take the fly poop. Others can stick with pepper and we can check back at some point and see how pepper-only people are doing as compared with those of us that like to mix fly poop with our pepper.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Truthfinder
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GC, sorry, but I just can't read your post all bunched up like that.

Johnlyme, you are absolutely, positively correct on all fronts!

Orthodox medicine decided that we needed to go `smaller' with our observations (like Pasteur), and have since then been dividing the human organism into tinier and tinier pieces to try to get to the root cause of chronic suffering. Likewise, doctors are becoming more and more specialized in certain areas of illness.

The homeopaths ran circles around the allopaths when it came to acute ailments and epidemics. But when it came to chronic illnesses, they often failed. Patients would initially get better, but then relapse repeatedly. Why did the same principles not work with prolonged illness?

The homeopaths realized they had to look at a `bigger' causative force when faced with chronic illnesses, not smaller. Hence, Hahnemann's book on Chronic Diseases and introduction of The MIASMS changed the face of homeopathic practice.

Perhaps `science' will eventually catch up to what homeopaths have known for over 100 years; often, two divergent methods will come full circle and arrive at the same conclusions. Frankly, I'm not interested in waiting.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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johnlyme1
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Truthfinder - My own homeopath has looked at his own training and also came across the parallel that many homeopaths are being trained and treating along the same lines of allopathic medicine just using natural remedies. He doe not like what has happend.

Have you looked into any of the ideas of Enderlein's theroy of pleomorphism?

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SAP
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quote:
Originally posted by SForsgren:
Personally, I prefer not to wait for years and years to see if the pepper or the fly poop wins out. Within some reasonable boundaries of safety, I'll take the fly poop. Others can stick with pepper and we can check back at some point and see how pepper-only people are doing as compared with those of us that like to mix fly poop with our pepper.

I've been reading this forum for only a few weeks but I notice how some serious topics on 'Medical' have a habit of turning into comedy. Much funnier than the jokes in 'Off Topic'.

The levity lightens my day, thanks Scott, Greatcod and others. Please keep it up.

--------------------
Sassy

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Truthfinder
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I admit, that was pretty funny, Scott. And humor that we can all enjoy. [Smile] Where do you get your fly poop, and do they sell it without any pepper?

Johnlyme, if I understand the concerns of your homeopath, there are many out there who do not like some of the current trends in `homeopathy' and homeopathic teaching. As you indicated, there is a modern tendency to `use this to treat that' in homeopathy, which is more of an allopathic approach. That way of thinking could really lead us down the wrong path.

No, I have not looked deeply at Enderlein's pleomorphism ideas, but have certainly heard of them.

Have you studied the Miasms much?

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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johnlyme1
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Have you studied the Miasms much? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Yes I have and we are working on the one that I have.

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heiwalove
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truthfinder, scott, and others, you are absolutely correct. if the western medical establishment was actually interested in curing disease, they would have little means of making a profit.

truthfinder, thanks so much for posting that article.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/violinexplosion

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TerryK
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Great post truthfinder.

This site might be of interest to those who want to know more about the AMA's history and current activities.
http://www.newstarget.com/the_AMA.html

GC:
There is no doubt that modern medical science has it's place. The problem is that the U.S. medical establishment is much more interested in money and power than they are in being pragmatic when it comes to our health.

GC wrote:
Look seriously at human life before those medsci accomplishments, and tell me its a vast conspiracy against cures..that's just nonsense.

Just because the discoveries of some scientists have been used to the good does not then follow that all valid discoveries are embraced. I think it's clear that as medical discoveries are made, political and monetary interests reign in the introduction and use (or not) of those discoveries.

I'd go on, point by point but I don't think you are interested. It seems that you already have your mind made up.

Terry

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TheCrimeOfLyme
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I've been at this a long time, and I can tell you antibiotics ALONE * IN MY CASE* *ME, MYYYY case* did NOT work against *ME AND MY* lyme.

If I didn't use alternative therapies, I'd be dead. For me, taking massive doses of antibiotics was like throwing food down a garbage disposal but never stopping to think perhaps the garbage disposal itself needed cleaned out.

I did 18 months of antibiotics that didnt touch the pain of my lyme. one session of trigger point therapy (and 35.00 dollars later) my chronic shoulder pain left for a year and a half. it came BACK after that, but I was pain free for 18 months.

Half of my lyme battle was spent in abx. The other half ( ok more than half) was alternative. I did some WEIRD things, but I got better. I can function.

Thats just MY story. I wont argue who wins, who doesn't. I'm just saying thats what worked for me. I'd pick alternative over conventional any day of the week.

--------------------
You want your life back? Take it.

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Greatcod
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Scott wrote" have not seen much "help" in an approach that uses solely antibiotics in the many people I have seen with Lyme."

Are you serious?--antibiotics don't help, as much as foot detox pads and FIR sauna. Don't tell the IDSA, please.

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SForsgren
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You are not getting the message. I don't claim that detox foot pads or FIR sauna, or ozone alone cure Lyme disease. In fact, I don't believe that anything "cures" Lyme disease depending on what you define as "cure".

I have from the beginning suggested that antibiotics are a PART of a well-designed treatment plan. I have used and do use them as part of my program.

I have from the beginning suggsted that antibiotics ALONE are not likely to result in an optimal outcome. Many of the LLMDs that I have talked with would agree. Most people that have been down this path for any length of time and done antibiotics alone likely realize this to be true as well.

Look outside the box. You get to choose your own path. That's the beauty of it - you choose your path, I choose my path. In the end, I hope that both work, but in my heart, I don't believe that killing bugs with antibiotics will do it.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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map1131
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Crime, I love the garbage disposal analysis. It's right on.

Pam

--------------------
"Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill

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Greatcod
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Scott, I think it was just in the way you worded it "I have not seen much "help" in an approach that uses solely antibiotic".

I have known people enormously helped by antibiotics alone..sure there are treatment failures, and partial successes, but I think its dangerous to place alternatives on the same level as ABX.

And I have never at all suggested that some alternatives don't have merit. My issue is with the concept that alernatives don't have side effects or many treatment failures, and to suggest that they do is being "negative".

Or the greater sin, to believe that some alternatives are indeed "hooey". There are still people selling snake oil. OTOH, maybe someday we will discover that real snake oil cures Lyme.
Yin and Yang.

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CaliforniaLyme
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I also have found MANY people helped by antibiotics alone and find the intolerance
to THAT path astounding!!! I have seen way more than short-term fixes with abx- I have seen FULL REMISSIONS and those people have- the majority of them- not relapsed!! A minority has- but not majority! And from the lit that is probably reinfection- (Swedish study- also says same people bit over & over again!!).

And as I state over and over again, I think many alternative therapies are wonderful and add a lot to some paths- and many people NEED them in conjunction with antibiotics. But around ehre we have had ZERO recoveries with NO abx- not a SINGLE full remission in anyone who has chosen not to ever touch abx!!! And only ONE near-recovery!!

But I think it is important to discriminate, as Doc B did in lecture, between what is helpful to many of us, what is helpful to a few, and what is probably helpful because of placebo effect alone.

I want people to get well- but SOME therapies can kill people- like chelation with some agents- and I NEVER want to hear that we here at LymeNet helped someone die!!! Or someones child.

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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CaliforniaLyme
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p.s. Acupuncture is wonderful!!! HBO can be wonderful but is $!!! Artemisia is wonderful*)!!
Mangosteen seems truly beneficial!*)*)!! YAY*)!
I mean that YAY!*)! I am HAPPY as heck those things WORK-!!!


I wish everything did- but the only everything that works is placebo... AND BLESS THAT, too!!

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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cordor
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Just my 2 cents. I have been unable to handle ANY antibiotics for almost 2 years now because of drug sensitivities and allergies. Without alternative treatments, including detox foot pads, supplements, hyperbaric oxygen and IV gluathione...my body would have never been able to handle ANY abx ever again. I truly believe that. I am now on minocycline and have been tolerating it for 2 weeks now.
Without these alternative treatments, etc. that would NOT have been possible.
Things I would have NEVER dreamed I would be trying, I am trying. You have to have a very open mind with this illness.

--------------------
Corinne

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Robin123
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And there are people who can't take abx and are doing the Buhner herbs or Zhang herbs. My understanding is whatever works, go for it!
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valymemom
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For the past 2 1/2 years I have been a part of a moms' support group and among the ten or so of us there are 15 teens/young adults with lyme. We see approximately 8 different llmds.

Of those 16 kids one has returned to high school full time basically symptom-free after her abx protocol.

The rest of us know toxicity plays a large role in this disease: mold, metals, diet, adrenal/hormonal problems all contribute their part to damaging the body and keeping it from attaining wellness.

I wish it were just the spirochete/parasite doing the damage. (In my case, I got well after 14 months of abx, but my two sons are not yet well after two and three + years of abx.)

They are better: the spirochete load is down, co-infections have been targeted and mold, metals, parasites and adrenal problems now have been uncovered using ART.

As I help my neighbor/friend with her 20 year old son's newly discovered Bb, I am wiser than three years ago, and I can advice her that alternative supports along with abx may increase her son's chances of beating this sooner.

I have never seen any helpful, veteran poster on lymenet post an article that proposes this war against tickborne infection can be won without abx. We all should be allowed to champion our opinion.......success...... without attacks......only facts.

I am thankful for finding this site and for being able to read about the many different journeys to wellness.

[ 21. October 2007, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: valymemom ]

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Truthfinder
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Cordor, that is terrific news.

There are a lot of great posts here.

Just remember something: Sometime today or tomorrow, there will be a person with Lyme and/or Co. that comes to LymeNet who is incapable of taking abx, or they don't have the money to see an LLMD, or are unable to travel, or don't have any family support, etc.

Every time those who claim it can't be done without abx may very well be putting another nail in the coffin of HOPE for these people.

Since no one seems to know anyone who has gotten well without abx (or not admitting to it), it does not mean that it doesn't happen.

And those that post here on LymeNet claiming to be well without abx are run out of town by the Skeptic Posse.

The people on this website have created their own limited scope of treatment.

It is no crime to admit that it is possible to get well without abx, even if you have not witnessed it yourself. That simple confession may be the words a new person needs to hear in order to keep trying. Do not take hope away from anyone, please. No one can get well if they give up.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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heiwalove
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truthfinder and others -

at my sickest three years ago i was near death - totally bedbound, could barely move or think or carry on a simple conversation, certainly couldn't read/watch tv/etc. dropped to 88 pounds and nothing i ate stayed inside me.

at the time i had no family support (no one in my family believed i was sick) and i was way too ill to travel alone. i ended up finding an alternative protocol, and getting almost 100 percent well with no abx whatsoever. i was in near-remission for two years: working, playing music, laughing, reading, writing, going out with friends. again, i took not a single dose of abx during this time. (note: i am not recommending this path, i am only sharing my experiences.)

a couple months ago i started to experience a bit of a relapse, and now that i'm not NEARLY as sick as i was three years ago, i'm able to bring myself to an LLMD. i'm having symptoms again, yes, but they're not even CLOSE to the severity they were before (knock on wood!): i'm 114 pounds, i can read, write, communicate, have dinner with friends, work very parttime, play music, leave my apartment, run errands, travel to my LLMD.

my original treatment was VERY unorthodox and alternative but i had no other choice. yes, i was desperate. no, i didn't think it would work. but it did. i'm not going to divulge what i did here because i'm sure i would be run off this board entirely.

in peace.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/violinexplosion

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jennyflyer
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I'd love to hear about it. I'm very close to hopping on a plane and going back to Bali, where I spent a month last year.

Lots of alternatives to western medicine there.

I'm quite serious, I am thinkng about heading back over for a couple months. I met quite a few people there who recovered from cancer without western medicine.

--------------------
Jennifer

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Greatcod
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Nobody wants to run anybody off the board..its a question of what works, and some sense of the risks taken by choosing that course of treatment, and the percentage of people that it works for.
Its fine if something works for person A and they report it, its equally ok if the same treatment doesn't work for person B, and they report it.
And an idea of the costs is important.
Some people here consider any report of failure or adverse consequences to be "alternative bashing", which is nonsense.

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Robin123
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And I am aware of someone who swears by their Tibetan herbalist's herbs for Lyme treatment.
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bejoy
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Anything beyond a few weeks of Doxy, including both longterm antibiotics and herbs, are all considered alternative when it comes to treating Lyme disease.

Something I love about lymenet is the wealth of information available on such a variety of traditional/western/alternative/complementary approaches to recovering from Lyme.

I don't really care what you call it if it works in the long run, and doesn't do damage in the process.

I want to get well as quickly as possible, making as few mistakes as possible, and keeping as many of my shirts as possible.

Thanks for all of your contributions helping me get there.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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CaliforniaLyme
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Nobody wants to run anybody off the board.
************************************************
I like you, Heiwa, and I am glad what worked for you worked for you. I would never want you to leave this board.

I would never want any Lyme sufferer to
leave this board who was helped by it.
Never.

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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D Bergy
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Here is some recent information about a treatment used in various parts of Europe for Cancer. 100,000 people have already used this treatment.

Someone asked why someone has not used Rife principles in a way in which they could be patented. This would be close to that line of thinking. Sorry, could not post images here.

Also see the link at the end for another variation on frequency therapy.

D Bergy

Hi,
I have just come back from the first day of the Oncotherm Symposium in Cologne, Germany.

For me the most interesting talk was a clinical study using mice comparing simple hyperthermia (heat treatment up to 42C) with Oncothermia (heat treatment with added Rife modulation) and of course control mice with no therapy.

The talk was entitled: "Recent results of in vivo experiments on Oncothermia in a nude mice animal model"

All the mice had tumours injected into them either side. Left received hyperthermia, right Oncothermia.

The conclusions were interesting.

Hyperthermia was 17% better than no treatment, Oncothermia was 56% (3x better than hyperthermia) than no treatment.

Again, clinical proof that what they call "Rife modulation" causes a significant improvement over hyperthermia under controlled clinical conditions.

The Oncothermia units apply local regional heat and frequencies via a capacitance method where the patient lies on a water bed and the therapy head is in direct contact with the body. A special small mouse-sized version was built for the in vivo studies.

The images shown, where Oncothermia had been used, showed the cancerous tissue had been almost completely destroyed.

The clinical study was performed using Oncotherm equipment by Dr. G. Andocs in Budapest, Hungary. It is only one of many studies, performed with such equipment, validating the combination of Rife and hyperthermia. Over 100000 patients have been treated with Oncotherm therapy.

This is the 6th Oncotherm Symposium with about 300 Oncologists from around Europe who use Oncotherm equipment in their clinics and hospitals - yes, Rife therapy is being used in mainstream medicine in Europe and it has been proved to work.


http://www.rife.de/oncotherm_-_rife_and_hyperthermia.html

Here is John Kanzius and his treatment for Cancer that is being tested at this time. This one can be patented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1nEmsyoIdU

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Greatcod
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Actually, this is fascinating stuff. Thanks.

Although nude mice on a waterbed is hard to picture..

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QUOTE:

***
I have known people enormously helped by antibiotics alone..sure there are treatment failures, and partial successes, but I think its dangerous to place alternatives on the same level as ABX.

And I have never at all suggested that some alternatives don't have merit. My issue is with the concept that alernatives don't have side effects or many treatment failures, and to suggest that they do is being "negative".
***


I would wonder WHY anyone would WANT to put alternatives on the SAME level as ABX. MANY are far superior to abx.

ABX have their place, but ONLY their place.

Many are killers, NOT of Lyme, but people.

I agree with Scott, they do have some place in some people's regimens.

However a HUGE minority DO relapse from them. I did. To a point of near death two years ago. NOW I can at least live a fairly "normal" life since I went to herbs only. Well throw in a few vitamins.

NO ONE is "Cured" from long time Lyme. In remission, maybe, but not "cured".

So I agree with CaliforniaLyme also, in that NONE are "cured" from alternatives. Course NONE are "cured" from abx either.

And there ARE MANY who have come to be in remission from abx, AND many who have come to be in remission from herbs and other alternatives, to "modern" western medicine.

Most people who come to find the "natural" healing alternatives, such as herbs, do so because they already were failed by abx. IF all went the natural route, maybe with a short term abx treatment too, then herbs would have a much higher "healing" rate too.

Let the person who has eyes, SEE. And let the person who has ears, LISTEN.

Unfortunately MOST do not.

Jim [Cool]

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Anneke
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Oh my god... Thanks for all the laughs everyone!! This fly poop vs. pepper thing is KILLING me! I was reading the posts to my friend and we were dying laughing!!

I agree with CaliforniaLyme that it would be tragic if a newcomer came and tried some dangerous, completely unproven treatment or supplement and got worse. The other posts on Vit C/Salt protocol being one of them!

For those of us still debilitated by the disease -= our hope and willingness to try new supposed treatments or cures has always got to be tempered
by the best use of our logic, brain power, research, and the seeking out of the best counsel.

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luvs2ride
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Well, here we go again. Bicker, bicker, bicker.

It is clear enough, even to a blind man, that there are a great many of us here at lymenet who believe in and seek out alternative means of healing along with antibiotics. Based upon the posts, it appears we are in the majority.

Calif has personal experience of seeing many heal with just antibiotics and I am thankful to hear her experiences. Just as I am thankful to hear anyone's positive or negative experience of alternative and/or abx.

I think personal experience and shared research is beneficial to us all and what lymenet should be about. I am as happy to read Cave's allopathic research as I am always to read GiGi, Marnie, Truth and others research on alternatives. But frankly, I have begun to avoid Cave's threads because she has stopped added important information about current research and has instead begun to devote herself to debunking alternative care. What a waste.
GC, sorry honey but you are just a "yes" man/woman to Cave.

I am really tired of the few, and you are just a few, whose sole purpose here is to denounce alternative care. You come into a thread with no personal experiences just jabs and sneers. It really is only about 4 posters and you are boring in your repetition.

I believe we could have two forums that go this way 1-Abx only 2-Intergrative treatments that include abx and alternative care.

I bet I know which forum would be the most active.

Luvs

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Truthfinder
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Excellent posts, JimBob and Luvs!

***'' Its fine if something works for person A and they report it, its equally ok if the same treatment doesn't work for person B, and they report it.''***

Once again, GC, I believe you are missing the point.

People need a forum to explore ideas of treatment, not just go out there alone, try things, and then report back. But that is what happens because a few posters won't let the discussion of `exploring' take place without ridicule and rudeness. And the same thing often happens when they DO stop by to report a non-abx success story.

Now that we have Dr. B's acknowledgment that he observes Lyme remissions WITHOUT the use of abx, it would be nice if we could concentrate more on sharing ideas instead of trading insults.

Besides, I suspect we are all giving Jenifer a major headache (Jenifer is the acting moderator).

And don't throw out that fly poop just yet..... it could make the difference in your treatment.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�.

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D Bergy
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I am for any treatment that works.

Antibiotics are certainly the first line of defense.

Alternatives certainly do not have as much use, or studies behind them to help the user. But they are readily available to anyone.

I personally do not have access to pharmaceuticals to treat my wife. But, the alternatives we use are keeping things at a acceptable level. We would not be using them if they did not.

I would not be against using antibiotics now except that the cure rate is about as low as it is for other methods I perceive to be safer.

Use the treatment you have available and are comfortable with. The object is to get well to the degree possible, not to follow a particular stance on medicine. If your treatment is not working anymore use something else. Everything we have used has worked to a degree and when it quit working we switched to something else. Steps taken along the way to the goal of a cure.

I do not see the need to marry yourself to one side or the other. Use what works, let someone else figure out why it works. I am happy for anyone who can improve their life however thy manage to do it.

D Bergy

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CaliforniaLyme
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Aw I think GC is more than that- I think he has the wryest, funniest sense of humor of anyone on this board!!!! He often cracks me up because I am very gullible and my first impulse is always to believe what I read, so I ALWAYS, even knowing GC after all these years, start reading going, "WHAT!" and then do a double-take and go- "OH!"

(Yup, I am one of those people you can pull the same joke on over & over and on the tenth time I'll anticipate it*)!(Dense with humor.)

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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roro
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quote:
Originally posted by Greatcod:
Somewhat paranoid, IMO. Of the millions of medical professionals who have lost loved ones to cancer, or have loved ones with chronic conditions--sick and dying desperate people, that those medical and busiess people would tolerate repression of successful treatments of those condions doesn't make sense.
Too many medical professional are decent and dedicated human beings. The idea that the best and brightness of human society work to
keep people sick and dying is silly.

the doctors are not in on it. they are brainwashed in medical schools to think like this. the long hours (24 hour shifts) they do in residency are a form of torture to make them more vulnerable to the brainwashing. they are totally incapable of reading, making rational decisions for themselves, being scientific, etc. if they are incapable of being brainwashed, then they flunk out and don't get their MD.

by this logic, we woudl be better off going to doctors who flunked out of medical school [Big Grin] lets start a clinic of rebel doctors.

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CaliforniaLyme
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Roro said:
lets start a clinic of rebel doctors.

UNQUOTE

That's what ILADS is*)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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JimBoB
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Amen, Bergy.

Jim [Cool]

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