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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » buhner v. cowden protocol - LLMD recommendation?

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Author Topic: buhner v. cowden protocol - LLMD recommendation?
heiwalove
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just a quick question -

anyone know why so many LLMDs are recommending the cowden herbs, but i have yet to hear of any endorsing buhner's protocol?

i don't get it; it seems strange to me.

just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.

[ 17. November 2007, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: heiwalove ]

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hardynaka
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H, a few thoughts. Well, dr. C. is a physician, while B. is a herbalist. The social 'status' is different, I guess. Only dr. K. adopted immediately B's herbs.

I see a lyme doctor adopting another lyme doctor's protocol easier than adopting a herbalist protocol, if you see what I mean...

Besides dr. C. is very active in research and he sees many patients, while B. doesn't see patients. His speciality is not lyme disease only, lyme is one more item among his interests. Dr. C is very specialized in lyme disease, if I understood well.

Another point is that B. doesn't profit from the protocol he proposes, while dr. C. profits directly through herbal products he promotes.

I don't want to say one is better or worse for doing so, as I respect both, just pointing to facts that could make the outcome of the protocols they promote turn to different paths.

Just a few thoughts...
Selma

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MariaA
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Is it actually true that there are fewer docs treating with Buhner than Cowden= I'm under the care of one who uses Buhner. I think Cowden was around a lot longer, so that explains the discrepancy. Zhang's herbal protocol has also been around longer than Buhner so I think a number of LLMD's have tried to incorporate Zhang's methods. I'm sure as time goes on and more of us have success (or not, depending on the actual rates of success) there will be more LLMD's using the Buhner protocol.

I think that we tend to see a lot of Buhner users on the internet forums because it's such an accessible protocol- people tend to buy the book and get the herbs themselves and self-treat, and go on the forums for answers. Others who are under the care of an LLMD that uses the herbs dont necessarily come talk (I know a few) about it on the internet. I just assume we see the self-treaters disproportionally. I don't know if the Cowden protocol was as easy to find for the self-treaters as the Buhner one is now.

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shoney
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Dr H spoke about the Cowden protocol at a recent lyme conference, so more LLMD's will be familiar with Cowden
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JimBoB
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What Selma said.
###
[Cool]

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sparkle7
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It may have to do with marketing, too. I read the B book first &

then found the Dr. C protocol. On the internet, the Dr. C

protocol is sold in a format that makes it easy to use as a

package if you want to just buy it month to month - or for 6

months. You don't have to read a whole book & decide what you

want to do. With the B herbs, you have to find them individually

& order them. It's alittle more labor intensive to do that. I haven't

gotten into actually doing either but the Dr. C protocol seems

easier to just order the whole thing & follow it (if you can afford

it). It's just one page of instructions. I've read that you're

supposed to do muscle testing, etc. but it still seemed pretty

easy to follow.


BTW - Dr. C may not be a respected doctor to some... He's on

one of those "Quackwatch" websites & he's been harrassed &

fined by the gov't. This means nothing to me but some people

may get discouraged by this sort of thing. I don't think his

"status" as doctor is why his protocol is used more by doctors.

He may just make the program easier to use & maybe he has

more clinical data to back it up.

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hardynaka
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Sparkle, I guess you got a point there. It's much easier to buy C's herbs if you have the budget for!!

B's herbs require much more homework, buying from different sources, encapsulating by oneself etc...

But I don't think 'time' is in favor of C's herbs as Maria suggests. It's funny more doctors adopt C's herbs from the NEW C protocol! The new C protocol is much younger than B's protocol!!

Older C protocol was only Samento, if I remember well. Slowly, cumanda came in, and if my memory is good, it was by the time B book was published or even AFTER it. Only recently, C protocol developed into its full format of today, and herbs being used by LLMD belong to this very recent protocol.

So, not a time question, in my opinion. Of course, dr. C is interested in lyme before B, and this may count!

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sweet pea
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My LLMD recommends the Buhner protocol, and has been to a training session with him. A local herbalist has also been trained by him and has all the herbs at his store.

I also find that there are more people - both Lymies and non-Lymies - that are familiar with the Buhner protocol and not Cowden. My food co-op has "Healing Lyme" on display.

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Cobweb
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Title-"buhner v. cowden protocol - LLMD recommendation?"

My LLMD is a homeopathic medical doctor treating me with antibiotics and herbal supplements.

She does not recomend Buhner. I have not heard any comments about Cowden.

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CaliforniaLyme
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In my experience is is not anything to do with marketing but because Cowden seems to be helping people and Buhner, around here, doesn't.

What you read on the Internet is not necessarily true. There IS marketing, there are people who pop up right after books come out who may mention one protocol in every single post they post and who may be devoted to promoting that book or product!!!

I have not seen that for Cowden. Have you? I can't tihnk of one poster on this board who ceaselessly mentions "Cowden, Cowden-"

So I do NOT think it is marketing for Cowden.

Locally, Cowden has helped a couple of people, maybe 1/4th of those who have tried it (that is a guess-timate not an actual number, but a sincere guess-timate).

Locally, a WHOLE BUNCH of people started on Buhner and NO ONE I know of got good results
and stuck with it. NO ONE!!!

Someone will pipe up now and accuse me of whatnot but this is my experience.

We also had Buhner scheduled to come and speak to a bunch of CA groups but about the same time everyone started goinG OFF his protocols, he canceled.

So before I am accused of being anti-Buhner yet again for stating my experience let me say that he was SCHEDULED to SPEAK at our group in August but that he canceled- and that he canceled ALL his NO CA support groups he was going to speak at to my knowledge.

So far from being anti-anything I welcome any & all to our support gorup (as can be ascertained through the amtheyst bio-met promotional brochures which I passed out per a suppliers wishes meeting before last!)(no kickbacks for me, I will present ANYTHING to our group- they are adults).

ANYWAY, SO I would say, Heather, in my experience because Cowden works for some Lymies and Buhner doesn't. Around here that seems to be true.

Please don't jump me for my truth (not you, H, not you- others).
Thank you-
Very Sincerely,
Sarah

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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CaliforniaLyme
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p.s. Sweet pea- I am NOT saying you are a liar- regional variation can explain a lot. Maybe you have local Lyme strains which are very responsive to Buhner- but around here- ain't so-

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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hardynaka
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Sorry to say Sarah, but you don't have personal experience with Buhner's herbs yourself, while other from this thread have/ had, myself included.

I also have personal experience with 2 Cowden's main tinctures, Samento and Noni.

Many people from lymenet have experienced improvements with abx, with Buhner's herbs, or with some of Cowden herbs or whatever other Chinese herbs in the past. There's not such a thing as A=good, B=bad as you imply.

Many experienced amazing improvements with Buhner's herbs and are still experiencing. Just see Maria, who just posted in success stories. She's out of abx and reported IMMENSE improvements with Buhner's herbs.

She didn't say abx didn't work while the herbs did. She said both had their place in her healing path.

People are different and may react different to treatments. You also keep saying, there may be regional variations of critters. That's right. Too many variables to conclude "this works while this doesn't", in my humble opinion.

I appreciate your help a lot in many subjects and your supportive posts to me and others in times of trouble. I really do. It's almost as I knew you a bit!

But I don't think coming up with simple conclusions saying 'this works/ this not' will help others, SPECIALLY, because you don't have experience yourself with neither protocols.

I would love to read about your own experiences with Cowden herbs! I'm about to buy Cumanda myself to give it a try on my skin fungi!

So far, you keep talking about artemisia annua that you like. Well, it's one of Buhner's herbs! It's there in his book! Buhner's herbs are not only andro+ smilax + knotweed + cats claw. Nope.

There are other dozens of herbs there, few people have tried these others. How many of the people you know have tried stephania, cryptolepsis, red root, devil's claw, eleuthero for minimum number of months to see some improvement?

Cats claw is also used by Cowden, right? It's one of his main herbs (Samento)! I used both, whole herb and Samento. My daughter reacted better with Samento (she got into full remission with it) while I reacted MUCH better with whole herb (cats claw, that I took for almost 2 years without interruption after Buhner's advice). I'm also in full remission, I believe.

We were both infected in our garden, so different strains is not a probability... We just reacted differently to different types of products!

I also am a full believer on the Noni tincture, one of Cowden's tinctures! Without Noni, I don't believe I would have been freed from my first and second babesial infection. My daughter used if for her borrelia cysts together with Samento.

I'm all ears and open to learn from both researchers. I just don't 'close doors' to different protocols/ herbs. I prefer to leave doors open. I owe both researchers my health of today!

Selma

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MariaA
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I thnk CaliforniaLyme could be right about regional variations- buhner thinks this is true of Matthew Wood's success with teasel root in Minnesota versus other practitioners' lack of similar success with it in New England.

Note: my LLMD in California has mixed success with Buhner protocol. He's moved on to additional herbs, since an herbalist in his office did the same sort of research that Buhner did- read tons of international medical research on related spirochetes, and found some INdian and Chinese herbs that accomplished the same thing, possibly more reliably. Those herbs aren't easy to come by, so this protocol isn't as easy to adopt as Buhner's is.

However, I and my other friend (who goes to a different MD) here in the Bay Area responded exactly how Buhner's book said we would (in terms of timing of our improvements, down to what appears to be remission. In her case it took 6 months of herbs and antibiotics together to get her into complete remission, but she'd taken years of accupuncture before that which had improved her symptoms considerably before she was actually diagnosed as having LYme).

I picked up my infection in NY State, where some of the herbalists Buhner interviewed are practicing. I think it's possible my friend did too (we're both from NYC and were active outdoorswomen in upstate NY, though we had both moved to California around the time we got sick). However, she may have been reinfected in California when she finally got deathly sick so we don't really know what strain she has. I definitely know mine didn't come from the West Coast because I found the little bugger that bit me in NY state.

However, the other consideration is that people who have easy success with their treatment protocols don't go to support groups. My LLMD always points out that Lyme is easier to treat than you think from reading the INternet or going to support groups because lots of people just take their drugs and supplements, get better, and move on, with no problem.

I have never been to a Lyme support group. I happen to be an internet junkie so I spend time on Lymenet (again, mostly when I was sick, I'm mostly off of it for the last few months since I don't feel sick anymore).

Please don't take this personally, Sarah, but I believe it's also possible that your group is a bit self-selecting based on you as a leader because your experience has involved years of antibiotics, and possibly if you express skepticism of herbal treatment you might be driving some of the Buhner cases away and getting stuck with the disproportionally sick/difficult cases who would probably be best treated with a combo of both herbs and antibiotics, or who would need a much longer time in treatment than Buhner suggests.

I know lots of people in your area. I feel that the Santa Cruz mountains have lots of "hippie", antibiotic-distrusting people who are absolutely paranoid/hateful towards the Western medical establishment. My guess is that based on your location, anyone like that, already prejudiced against regular doctors- who goes to the support group and hears 'I took antibiotics for 9 years and you might have to too' will probably flee and not come back. You know better than I do how much turnover you have there, but that's a possibility to consider. So just as internet support groups can be influenced by trolls, liars, shills, and people who falsely post claiming success in order to drive up sales of someone's protocol (I think this happens with Bryan Rosner's work, which has been said here many times), real-life support groups probably self-select for the sickest cases who are the hardest to treat.

How long do you see people needing to treat with antibiotics in your support group? My LLMD says he sees tons of success with 6 months of treatment provided that coinfections, detoxification issues, and other complicating factors are addressed. Yet if you read Lymenet it really seems that it should be more like 4 years on antibiotics or something. I'm sure that with many difficult cases that's true. But we're seeing disproportionate numbers of those stories because those are the sickest people who seek out help as opposed to those with easy treatment who never seek help outside their doctor.

I know a bit about the Marin County support group, which I've heard about from several herbs-using folks like myself, and they all seem to complain about it being (in their words) dominated by Dr S's patients, who are heavy into just antibiotics (I'm not sure if this is true, I just heard that from several people in person).

They all don't go to the group as a result. And they're mostly healthy folks at this point, or at least greatly improved. This is probably 3 people, not a huge sampling, but they're getting their information and treatment in other ways, mostly due to their prejudice against antibiotics and perception that the support group involves those from another camp that's not helpful to their treatment choices.


I also know lots of people in the Bay Area who got Lyme, treated for a few months, and never felt the need to go to a support group- because their treament worked quickly.

So I think that support groups will overwhelmingly consist of the most difficult cases that really need the extra time on antibiotics, rather than the easier ones such as mine which could perhaps be more easily treated with herbs or self-treated with herbs (I wish you didn't have to self-treat but we know a lot of people do due to lack of money or perceived options) .

So if this is true, then it wouldn't be surprising that your group has a higher number of failures with Buhner alone. I think we'll just never know without a good double-blind study, which no one will conduct without some nonexistent funding source or potential for financial gain.

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MariaA
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By the way, I really don't mean to be picking a fight with Sarah, I hope it doesn't come off that way. I just think there's more than one explanation, and from my personal experience in the Bay Area I can imagine a different scenario she may not have thought about.

On the other hand, there's also my doctor's experience with Buhner which hasn't been spectacular. He's been working with it about a year and a half or two years. It seems to work well for some people and not for others.

I guess another possible explanation we may have is that perhaps it just takes longer than Buhner claims, at least in difficult cases.

I'd be curious just what it is that doesn't work about it- is it that patients don't achieve their expected timeline, that they stop the herbs at one year and then relapse, that they backslide even while on the herbs, that they have high liver enzymes or other side effects, or what? I'm just wondering if it's timeline-related.

Personally from the Lymenet and Lyme_aid_buhner yahoogroup experiences I assume that there's a problem with Buhner's timeline, but again, most of the folks talking about Lyme on the internet are probably the sickest.

I also personally think that he's not covering enough of the complicating factors in the book, but that gets into the Dr K (seattle) territory, which seems to apply to the most difficult cases but not be necessary to everyone, and has little documented research behind it, so it's difficult to evaluate this.

To a great extent I'm probably parroting what I've heard my LLMD say (that there are a lot of complicating factors such as metals, mold sensitivity, other infections, classic coinfections, etc ) so I'm not unbiased in my opinion myself and I"m not a medical professional either.

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diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
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JimBoB
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I was near death back in 2005 and was getting to a point where I really didn't want to live anymore, IF I couldn't have a better quality of life. It was like torture to have the brain fog, blurred vision, pain in my left shoulder, left knee tendons, and many other problems that were the symptoms of Lyme. 22 symptoms in all.

AND I had a DUCK that absolutely would not believe it was a relapse from the Lyme he treated me for back in 2000. So he would not give me any abx, nor would he do any tests that I requested.

So I was forced to self treat. Fortunately I found LymeNet after talking to a gal I met in southern Iowa who had been misdiagnosed for Lyme for almost 40 years. Had I not accidently met her on my last trip to pick up some vehicles out in western Nebraska, I don't believe I would have even been here.

When I read Lymenet posts, nothing seemed like it was going to work for me, as I had no money and no insurance and wasn't old enough for Medicare yet. But by chance I saw the Amazon advertisement to the left of these posts, and it was advertising the Healing Lyme book, by Stephen Harrod Buhner.

Well, I thought, what have I to lose, but a few dollars for this book. And ordered it. THAT move truly helped to save my life.

I had difficulty understanding it at first, because of the extreme brain fog, but I perservered, and lo and behold 24 months later, I am about 90% cured. Or at least feel about 90% of normal compared to the 30 to 40% that I did before taking his suggested herbs.

Back in November of 2005, I strongly felt I would not see 2006, and here it is two years later, and I have every hope to see 2008.

I am not perfect, maybe never will be, but NOW I have a life. A life that I feel is worth living.

I am from the Midwest, Wisconsin, the state in the center of our country that is the hottest hotbed for Lyme disease. So what am I to believe, that our strain is half east coast/half west coast?

I didn't go on Buhner's protocol for a month or two and just give up like so many do. I had to ramp up slowly because of the way abx had destroyed my stomach, but when I did, I tried backing down from my maximum regimen after two months. That didn't work, as I started relapsing immediately. So I continued at max for a little over 5 months. Then slowly backed off to where I am today.

There are some herbs, I will probably never quit, such as Devil's Claw, Sarsaparilla, Red Root tincture and maybe Stephania Root and Periwinkle.

WOULD Cowden's protocol work better for me than Buhner's? I don't know, as I never even heard of Cowden's till last year, and I was already doing pretty good on Buhner's. So why switch?

I maybe could have started feeling better, sooner, IF I had done other things in my lifestyle that would have helped too, like diet. But the herbs worked in SPITE of ME and my bad habits.

So please, don't knock Buhner's protocols IF you haven't tried them yourself for at least a few months. I did better with them and without abx. But I have heard of others who needed both herbs and abx. Like you all said, everyone is different.

I have heard of people all over the country that have gotten better with Buhner's protocols. Notice I said protocols, not protocol. He has many protocols in his book.

Jim [Cool]

[ 20. November 2007, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]

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heiwalove
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thanks everyone for your responses.

i'm interested in possibly combining some of buhner's and cowden's herbs, along with other natural approaches - all checked for me individually by ART testing, of course.

right now i'm on a cowden detoxer (burbur), am about to add samento (both of which i ART tested for), and am taking an ozonated essential oil to kill lots of microbes including lyme and babesia (and trust me, it packs a PUNCH). but next time i see my ART practitioner i'm going to bring along some of buhner's core herbs and see how they test for me, if i can add them into my protocol.

[ 20. November 2007, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]

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Looking
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Hi JimBob:

That's wonderful though, that you are doing so well with Buhner's herbs. Most people give more weight to someone's opinion if they have actually used a product they are talking about. Even if someone passes on opinions they have heard from other people that is not the same as having actually used the herbs yourself.

I'm sure your experience with these herbs may help a lot of people find something to help them in their battle with Lyme. We need all the help we can get.

Looking

[ 20. November 2007, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]

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CaliforniaLyme
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Selma & M, no offense taken. I believe your experiences. And I don't believe you nor I are doing anything personal here or with an ulterior agenda. I am glad you have both benfited from herbs.

M, you wrote about people and then said 3 people- are any in _full_ remission? I have honestly never seen that with herbs around here. I have heard of the group you refer to and the fighting that went on in it- it is the support group horror story of CA no offense!!! It's famous*)!
(Once some people from that group drove all the way to SC for a meeting because they did not want to go THERE!!! (!!!) and they told us about the fights!!!)

We DO have MANY alternative type people who have come through the group and maybe we just have abx-responsive strains around here- no, I don't think it is me, thank you for giving me so much power thouGH!*)!*)!*! I try to limit my influence in group and in fact am NEVER open about my personal beliefs in tx in group as I am here. I try & be supportive of all paths except those which I believe can be harmful.

And yes, my here is not your here. I know that.

Regional variation is real. In Boulder Creek we have cardiac Babesiosis- 3 serious heart cases in that area!! it is certainly popssible we have very abx-responsive strains-

Sincerely,
Sarah

[ 20. November 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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RoadRunner
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Sarah has been around as long time(if you go to the directory area here you will see her as sarah member 5) as I have seen her a many rally on east coast and she is from west coast she is a dedicated lyme support leader she post on all of the lyme boards for at least eight years that I know of and is truly a great person. she post many things that are facts.
No one should be attacking anyone on this board it is for help not to attack people.

RR

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hardynaka
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Sarah, I'm glad you didn't take my post as offensive, as it wasn't. I just felt I needed to say I'm well due to herbs, no matter which they are. I mean, I didn't stick to a single protocol, I just added what I felt I needed.

And added bits of abx when my lyme doctor suggested, but they were bits, so I can't say they really helped me as much as the multiple herbs I took did.

Not only Cowden, not only Buhner, but also a few other Chinese herbs, some rain forest plants, European plants (cistus)...

If I fall sick now again, and have the budget, I would try more of Cowden products out of curiosity! At least for coinfections, because for borrelia and immune system, I'm a very big believer on the Buhner combo.

I'm in full remission from lyme and coinfections. At least, I believe so. I'm not treating lyme with either herbs or abx and am symptom free for almost 4 months.

I don't know how much this will last, but so far, it's the longest period I got symptom-free since my first tick bite in 2005.

I owe herbs 98% of my 'remission' of today. It's difficult to make people believe, as I'm only here in the internet and I could be lying, still taking stuff for lyme and hiding.

I'll go to my lyme doctor this Friday and see what he thinks. I gave myself this status of remission because of lack of symptoms and lack of treatment without relapse. But no practioner saw me in these last 3-4 months.

I'll tell you guys what he says.

Selma

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heiwalove
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we all have different opinions and experiences. that's okay! it's even helpful! i think respect is the key and for what it's worth i have never seen sarah act disrespectfully on this board.

selma, i'm so happy you're in remission. you give me lots of hope that maybe this time i'm on the right path. [Smile]

[ 20. November 2007, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]

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http://www.myspace.com/violinexplosion

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RoadRunner
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something smells bad here....

RR

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"Beep Beep"

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RoadRunner
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this place has gone downhill not the same as 6 years ago.

RR

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"Beep Beep"

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hardynaka
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Heather, I do hope you'll get better too! I visited your link and read your last 'poem' to lyme. It was touching... Sorry to hear you're in a relapse. Just keep going on your treatment, I'm sure you'll get slowly better! [kiss]

As for me, I'm annoyed today.... One of the best sources for Buhner protocol, if not THE person with longest experience on the Buhner protocol, Jimbob, has just been banned. [Frown]

The forum in a whole loses when people with experience with NO MATTER what protocol get banned. Gigi first, then Cave, now Jimbob.

Jimbob is the oldest member of lymenet using Buhner protocol as a whole plus all the other adjunct herbs that I know (I mean, in a consistent way, without interruption).

Herbal users then lost a good source of advice on herbs, certainly the most experienced source of advice on Buhner adjuct herbs (advice as a first hand user, and long term user). Specially newbies with herbs.

I don't think he's got a side interest on Buhner. What could he profit from? He sells nothing except for used cars, as far as I know.

I do believe he says what he experienced with the herbs, as I had followed his story from the very beginning when he was so desperate looking for help. He has been a big help for me, in sharing his experiences with same herbs I took and much more.

I also don't like when things get too hot here... I try to keep cool, but it's not always easy. I can understand why he got annoyed and why Sarah gets annoyed. We need to keep our heads cool, guys!!

I'm glad I visit the Buhner forum and that I have personal email contacts with Jimbob, so I know I can still count on his advice on the herbs I never used.

For other lymeneters, well, it's a loss. Like Cave, like Gigi, Oxygenbabe in the past, etc etc...

The only good thing is that banned guys are allowed to return and that usually, it's for better!

Selma

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hardynaka
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Oh, I just read the other thread. Sarah was banned too. So I suppose, this is the guilty thread?

This is too bad.

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improver
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Hi heiwalove,

I am using part of cowdens protocol. As per my llmd I am taking cumanda and burbur along with doxy. I was taking amoxy and felt much better than I do right now. I also have buhners core herbs in the cabinet but am not goin to add them until I know if the other stuff works. I feel at times that I shouldv'e just started the buhner herbs long ago and maybe Id be better.

Since coming off the amoxy 2 weeks ago and starting the partial cownde etc. I have been getting some pain that seems like it starts in my left shoulder and travels up through my neck into my head, eye, teeth , jaw etc all on the left only. My neck is also very stiff and I feel very strange like almost nauseous. The reason for telling you all this is I am wondering if this stuff is really killing something and Im herxing,

or Am I just backsliding since these sx have been there in the past.

Oh and I don't usually see much response from doxy so who knows. If you have any thoughts please let me know.

I am only up to 7 drops so far of the cumanda.

Let me know which route you take, Rich

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MariaA
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Wow, I guess I missed a fight (I'm assuming?). I'm sorry if I said anythign that contributed to it, I was too busy the last day or two to read.

Sarah, if you're reading, I was talking more about three or four local folks who were complaining aobut the Marin group and were still in treatment. I had no idea there were fights there, that explains the tone of what I was hearing a LOT. Ack.


My friend Sarah L is in full remission after 6 months of antibiotics and Buhner herbs. I consider myself in remission but I"m still in treatment, albeit at highly reduced doses.

One other guy I know is in full remission after being diagnosed in the 80's and treating mostly with herbs. At the time they weren't prescribing long-term antibiotics for Lyme, and the short course of antibiotics did nothing for him. Buhner protocol didn't exist at the time.

He basically attributes some of his treatment to a somewhat dangerous herb that stimulates the lymph system, and I think Buhner's protocol covers the same effects (such as helping with herxes if you use sarsaparilla and resveratrol, and helping the lymph system do it's job if you use red root) much more safely and with red root as one of the gentler lymph system stimulants.

I did some back reading on the use of my friend's 'main' herb and what he attributes to it is possible but not likely for most users (I even wrote Buhner privately about it).

Buhner had a column in which he said that he didn't think that particular herb was going to treat Lyme alone but that it's useful for the lymphatic system (as is red root, a safer alternative).

I guess there are always exceptions. I suppose that someone can always go into remission because their immune system spontaneously overcomes the Lyme but my buddy who treated in the 80's and early 90's has been well ever since.

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Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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MariaA
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Can I also bring up another technical point:

-coumanda helps with fungus/candida/yeast symptoms, right?
-Lyme symptoms and yeast symptoms are very similar
-many of us have gotten better by addressing yeast or at least eating low-carb (as per Lymetoo's constant recommendations here I think)

I am always worried about diet these days, since in the spring/last winter some of my 'bad' days seemed to be explained by backsliding on the diet, which seems to really work especially well for me.

Dr Burrascano's suggestions for Lyme also include low-carb eating. For whichever reason, whether candida depresses the immune system or Lyme itself is made worse by sugar, these really seem to make a HUGe difference for me. I've considered getting some coumanda because peopel on the forum talk about it being good for candida, and I feel that the two conditions are soo related for me.

Think about that while being tempted by pumpkin pie tomorrow... my sweetie found some low-sugar pie recipes. I'm pretty grateful.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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Robin123
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I just wanted to say that I go regularly to the Marin group, and that we appear to have a variety of approaches these days. Some of us can do antibiotics and some of us cannot. Some of us can afford to go see doctors and some of us cannot. So we talk about all kinds of approaches. It's been interesting and an ok experience for me.
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