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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Cowden Protocol effective?? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Cowden Protocol effective??
lucy96734
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The reading I've done indicates it just covers Lyme. I know he has many protocols so there may be others that cover co-infections.

My LLMD has me on Cowden and Zhangs Art because I had tested pos for Babs way back when. I did 7 months of Mepron but an occasional symptom seemed to indicate Babs. Of course I only have an occasional symptom so...

I could be wrong.

--------------------
Lucy

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grapekoolaid
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thanks, scott, i will definately watch for that article!

--------------------
grape

*DX w/ MS March 1987
*Tested + for several lyme bands and erlichea July 2007
*Full Cowden protocol 7/07 - 4/08
*2000mg tetracycline since May 2008

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randibear
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i went to the nutramedix site, but man, is that expensive. i can't afford that.

can a person go out and just buy the liquid and do it themselves or must you buy all those other things also?

i have a friend who started with just the liquid samento and that helped her and then she started adding other things.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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sparkle7
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I think Nutramedix has a proprietary way of extracting the herbs. I think their products are very good. I'm not sure if you would get as good results from another brand.

I definitely understand about the cost. You don't have to order the whole protocol - you could do it gradually, over time. That's what is known as the "limited" protocol. The instructions are on the site.

The first 3 herbs you need are Cumanda, Burbur & Parsley. You basicly take those for the first 17 days. So, you can put off getting the other products for a week or 2. I like to use something to absorb the toxins like Welchol or Nanotek Chitosan. They have zeolites on the Nutramedix site.

From the results I'm getting in a short space of time - it's worth it!

I don't think I have the co-infections but I was thinking of doing the Zhang protocol after I get through the Cowden herbs. The tests are not accurate for the co-infections so my doctor said I didn't need them based on my symptoms. I guess I'll see how it goes.

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Chia Pet
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Before I started Cowden, I bought a large bottle of Cat's Claw from my LLMD that was the same price as the Samento from Nutramedix.

I used it and I herxed like a banchee.

When I asked if I could use that in lieu of Cowden, they told me to stick with Cowden's Samento so they monitor my progress.

Honestly, I do not think there is a difference. The whole TOA controversy is discussed in Buhners book.

I did not see a difference in the Cats Claw vs. the TOA free Samento from Nutramedix. The bottle I bought from my LLMD was about 10X larger than Cowdens Samento.

I can understand their hesitantcy in not wanting to stray from the same products line in a protocol, but financially if I had a choice of not taking it, or taking it due to costs, I would try and get the most for my money.

Just make sure it is a reputable brand.

Perhaps someone else will chime in on this.

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dontlikeliver
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According to my former LLMD, now retired, Cat's Claw can cause kidney damage or even failure. As far as the TOA-free goes, he wasn't sure, but advised me to stop it.

On the other hand, my current LLMD recommends it.

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sixgoofykids
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My LLMD said that Nutramedix/Cowden are coming out with a babesia treatment soon!!!

The cost is high .... but honestly, it's cheaper than one trip to NY!!!

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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ctlyme
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With regard to Cowden treating co-infections.

I spoke w/ a Naturapath who is on the protocol and she said she e-mailed Cowden a punch of questions regarding its effectiveness on co-infections and his response was that it does treat them w/ the exception of the most resistant types of Babs.

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CherylSue
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The Cowden Nutramedix products can be purchased cheaper online from these sites:

Renewal Enterprises
The Green Pharmacy
Susan Ambrosino's Herbs (myherbs)

You don't have to purchase them directly from Nutramedix, although I think you do for the zeolite.

I've been taking cumanda and burbur since July. I didn't make too much progress until I tried the doxycyline in December.

CherylSue

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SForsgren
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Nutramedix is releasing a new product next month that is potentially useful for the difficult Babesia issues as well as other parasites, microfilarial worms, etc. The product will be announced soon and the Dr. C article that will be in the next PHA on 2/1 or that week will have some details as well.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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CherylSue
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Nutramedix also introduced serrapeptase (replaces carnivora in the protocol, reduces fibrin)

and zeolite (chelates heavy metals)

I'm counting the days to see this new product. Either it is one of the above or a brand new one altogether.

CherylSue

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SForsgren
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It is a brand new product, not Serrapeptase or Zeolite. I just did an interview of Dr. C. that mentions it. The interview will be available this weekend at the Florida Lyme conference I believe and then officially in the PHA first week of Feb. The product should be available in Feb as well.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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maryland
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Some days are good on the protocol and some days are terrible. I did not start experiencing night sweats until the 60th day on the cowden. I have no idea if this stuff is working or not?????

--------------------
Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT,
Symptomatic:1999
Hospitalization: 2004
Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since.
Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly.

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grapekoolaid
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gm--i m very new to this board, but not new to chronic illness. was dx w/ ms early 1987. october 2006 added holistic doc and his phys asst (debbie) to my med team. stopped taking several 'traditional' meds late 2006 and started low does naltrexone (ldn--not fda approved www.lowdosenaltrexone.org) and large variety of supplements based on the different lab results debbie analyzed. by march 2007 i felt great! told husband i had no idea how poorly i felt until i started feeling better!

june 2007 debbie had recently returned from a lymes conference and it was suggested that the participants test all their ms patients for lymes. she did and test showed several positive bands. hmmmm....do i have ms or lymes? could i have both? got me---the symptoms r incredibly similar in many instances.

when i added debbie to 'my team', i made the decision to avoid as many traditional meds as possible. so, i chose to start cowdens protocol rather than antibiotics. i started his entire protocol in july 2007 and am still following it--i m in the 6th month.

i experienced 'noticeable' die off for the first 2-3 weeks----headaches, rash on thighs, some lethargy. it did pass and i really notice very little discomfort anymore. i m taking cowden's recommended number of drops of everything.

october 2007, one of debbies other ms patients who also has lymes made it out of her wheelchair after an 18 month daily iv of rocephin. debbie spoke w/ her llmd and we decided to do another lymes test on me to see how the cowden protocol was impacting me. some bands that were - are now either IND or +; however, i do still have several - bands. i can tell you that since october 2006 (ldn), january 2007 (supplements)that i have had zero debilitating progression whereas prior to oct 2006, i was steadily deteriorating.

debbie and i have decided to hold off on the antibiotics and to continue cowden for 3 more months and then we will have another discussion re: use of abx.

i still have some symptoms (balance left side stiffness, vision, bladder control and burning issues) and i m still in a w/c, but i sincerely feel the use of ldn, supplements and cowden have improved my overall health. husband recently had a bad cold and i did not get it! yae!

cowden protocol is expesive so i am thankful i read a post on this forum that shared another provider of nutramedix products at a lower price.

i dont know what my future decision will be regarding abx, but i will keep reading and learning so that i will know what to do when/if the time comes.

thanks for all your sharing---i find it to be very helpful!

--------------------
grape

*DX w/ MS March 1987
*Tested + for several lyme bands and erlichea July 2007
*Full Cowden protocol 7/07 - 4/08
*2000mg tetracycline since May 2008

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Chia Pet
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quote:
Originally posted by ctlyme:
With regard to Cowden treating co-infections.

I spoke w/ a Naturapath who is on the protocol and she said she e-mailed Cowden a punch of questions regarding its effectiveness on co-infections and his response was that it does treat them w/ the exception of the most resistant types of Babs.

I was told that yesterday. Maybe I misunderstood, but my LLMD said it doesn't treat Babs.
I think Quina may help. I now am now going back on Mepron, Zith, Septra and art because my Babs?Lyme is worst.
Have been on cowden going on 8 months, malarone, and just started Art about 3 weeks ago.

I think the ART is drawing out the bugs because symptoms are coming out I haven't had in a year. Not this bad anyway. or I relapsed. Basically can't do much of anything.

LLMD thinks went downhill and have to do the regime.

On a positive note, Cowden is working on a Babs resistant protocol.

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oxygenbabe
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How does he know he's found herbs that work on babs? And if so why didnt anybody else find them until now? What studies has he done, for instance double blind in laboratory mice. Lots of claims but who knows what the evidence is or the safety of the herbs.
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klutzo
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After reading your posts, I guess I must be wrong, but back when I was on one of the earlier versions of Cowden's Protocol, I was given to understand that Quina, which comes from quinine, kills Babs.

Also, Samento itself is supposed to kill a couple of strains of Babs, but not all. Any dosage of Samento over 3 drops daily can stop my chills within 2 days, so I think I must have one of the Babs strains that Samento works against. My two Babs tests were negative, but we all know that does not mean much.

It did not matter for me that Quina kills Babs, since all quinine derivitives make me stop breathing, and are therefore off limits.

Both Samento and Cumanda made me herx, though I eventually stopped herxing on Cumanda. I now take only a small daily dose of Samento (2 drops), because I will still herx on higher doses after 4 yrs. of taking it, and my spouse refuses to put up with the resulting Lyme rages.

I failed to find any research showing kidney damage from Samento, but would love to have citations to such research, anyone? I ask because recently my BUN/Creatanine ratios have been off in my labs, which is a sign of kidney function. If the Samento is causing that, I want to know ASAP.

Klutzo

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CherylSue
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Hey, Scott Forsgren's article about the new Cowden protocol is now on his betterhealthguy website. The article is titled, "Expanded Treatment Focus Markedly Improves Lyme Disease Patient Outcomes."

Thanks, Scott!

P.S. Have you been using Dr. C's new suggested products? What has been your experience? Can it be taken with antibiotics (doxycycline)?

CherylSue

[ 19. January 2008, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: CherylSue ]

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SForsgren
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I was going to post it, but I can't post the link since it is currently only available on my site and soon to be on the PHA site. I can't post my site links here without breaking the rules.

I have used Serrapeptase so far and am likely to try Enula. I have used the Zeolite that Dr. C suggested in the past and likely will change to the NM Zeolite. I have already purchased it but not yet started.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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CherylSue
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The article is also posted on the Nutramedix Ecuador website.
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sparkle7
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Grapecoolade - Thanks for the info about Naltrexone. I'm going to look into it.
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SForsgren
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http://www.bionatus.com/nutramedix/pdfs/publichealthalert_cowden.pdf

[ 20. January 2008, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: SForsgren ]

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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grapekoolaid
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[Smile] thank you, scott--m printing the article now! looking forward to reading it! i saw a post where serrapatase (misspelled) is now taken in lieu of carnivora?? is this correct? [confused] i also just purchased the aeolite hp---is that the product dr. c still recommends? this may all be spelled out ion your article, but i thought i would ask b-4 i log off---i have dial up and it is sloooooow. thanks

--------------------
grape

*DX w/ MS March 1987
*Tested + for several lyme bands and erlichea July 2007
*Full Cowden protocol 7/07 - 4/08
*2000mg tetracycline since May 2008

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SForsgren
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He still does energetic testing with the Asyra or other tools as mentioned in the article to determine what the patient may need for his own patients, but for the NutraMedix protocol, Zeolite now replaces Algas and Serrapeptase replaces Carnivora. Make sure you read and understand the difference between Zeolite and Zeolite HP. For most people, Zeolite is the one to start with first and then later progress to the HP. Also mentioned in the article. Be well

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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grapekoolaid
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truly loved your article, scott---very CLEAR!i m learning alot!

i did understand the difference between zeolite and zeolite hp. since i m in month 6 of the full protocol, i have previously used the algas , chorella and physasst also had me take dmsa. only doing algas at this time. it seems as if it is appropriate for me to go with the zelite hp at this time. i also will start the serrapeptase and return the unopened carnivora! i have sent all of this to phys asst and will touch base w/ her before i make these adjustments. i will also point out the 'free' offer of 6 months of the protocol to each physician's office (hoping i read that correctly!) i forget the name of the 'new' herb, but i need to get me some of that too! i m excited!

do u have any thoughts on how i find out if i have truly had lyme all these years rather than ms? or, does it even matter? i had 6mos follow up w/ neuro thursday and it truly was a regular NON appointment if u get my drift! i made him aware of the 2 lyme nests, ldn, cowden protocol, etc and received the typical verbiage re: scientific studies, blah, blah, blah...take care!

--------------------
grape

*DX w/ MS March 1987
*Tested + for several lyme bands and erlichea July 2007
*Full Cowden protocol 7/07 - 4/08
*2000mg tetracycline since May 2008

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sixgoofykids
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Very nice article, Scott.

I'm really doing well on the herbs so far.

My LLMD also has adjusted my thyroid meds, so in conjunction with the adrenal support of the Cowden protocol and the additional adrenal support I am taking (I believe it's Xymogen Adrenal Essense), I am feeling SO much better!

I had more energy this weekend than any other member of my family, LOL. And that was after spending two days cleaning and organizing hubby's new office building! [Smile]

I am still on one abx and one babs med. I'll be switching over to the new babs herb next month.

I'm really liking this as a follow-up to abx ... I was not better by ILADS standards, but Dr. H feels that this is the way to get the rest of it out. He also has me doing lots more detox as mentioned in the article.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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savebabe
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Does anybody know how long the new babs herbs treatment will take?

Do you continue taking this new supplement along with other herbs?

Thanks

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maryland
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Why on earth would Dr. Cowden (and other LLMD's) advise patients to include samento as part of our treatment regimine if Samento causes renal failure????????? [shake] [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT,
Symptomatic:1999
Hospitalization: 2004
Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since.
Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly.

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Chia Pet
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OK, I am not a newbie to Lyme, just not an avid poster, sorry.

I have done the Cowden for 7 months now. Just stopped a couple of days ago and supposed to go back to antibiotics. We'll be treating for Babs/bart with Mepron, zith, septra and art.

The art will be 5 days on and 3 off.

I have no clue what these herbs are targeting, only can say that I sometimes felt better on Quina, and sometimes Cumanda during rotation.

Maybe because Babs may have been cycling itself at certain points, I believe the Quina may have helped. I was also on malarone for the past 4 months which helped.

I have always done the full 30 drops of Quina and Cumanda. Samento had to drop back to 10 after 2 months.

LLMD told me to try Banderol for 30 days, then 30 days Quina. It's not something he has done before or often I understand.

Banderol got me so sick and it did not abate at all when I switched to Quina. Matter of fact, I have regressed so badly with what i think are Bart symptoms. I didn't tolerate banderol longer than 18 days.

I felt like I was poisoned on Banderol. The Burbur or the parsley did not help me during this time significantly enough, and for a few days I took Burbur practically every hour with some help.

Saw LLMD on Friday the 18th and he thinks I slipped, hence antibiotics and also feels chronic Babs. (I did wake up with sweats very bad one night, loooow blood pressure, my whole body felt inflamed, have chills quite a bit (can't get warm)

Forgot to show him what I think is a Bart papule which came out during Banderol. (my lyme brain)

Today after a shower and having worn lose clothing for 3 days since I have been homebound, I noticed what looked like a stretch mark rash.

I am going to be calling LLMD regarding this tomorrow, but also will be contacting Cowden via fax to ask if he has seen Banderol draw out Bart symptoms. None of the other herbs did this to me.
The tightening in ribs got sooo bad, I thought someone had a belt wrapped around me. Have had thi symptom before, but it was pronounced with Banderol.

Wearing a bra was next to impossible and believe me I need one, so I tucked them in my pants.
(kidding)

As far as chronic Babs, apparently he is coming to NY in March to meet with a subset of patients. I've been added to the list, but not sure if chronic Babs is really my main issue right now.

I had been treated for Bart 2 years ago. Had 3 Babs test and 3 Bart- all NEG. But my symtoms of anxiety, bone pain, suicidal, nodes enlarged suggested treating Bart. I NEVER had any of this prior to treatment and even in the 17 years of treating Lyme.

I did test POS for Babs 7 yrs ago.

I tell you this because this because of my past history and extended time on Cowden that I feel I can speak of my experience and my hypotheses what is occuring with these herbs.

I am not convinced my sweats episode was babs.
I believe Bart can do this as well which obviously can complicate diagnosis.

Buhner's Book on Bart mentions this very same thing, page 198
" In all cases they (Bart) move into endothelial tissue. However, once adapted to a new species, they periodically move from that location into red blood cells. This creates a periodically recurring malarial like (or babesiosis like) disease"

I am very interested to hear what Cowden has to say and I will post my responses when/if I receive them.

But my suspician is Banderol will draw out the Bart. Could be I brought down the Babs and Bart reared it's ugly head? Not sure. I could be wrong.

But I don't think it kills Bart IMHO. I think it upset it enough to move around.

You can call me nuts if you like. [Big Grin]
You wouldn't be the first..... LOL

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it important to explain history to justify my rationale.

If you take anything away from this it should be to go slow on Banderol. I assumed because I could tolerate the full dose of Quina and Cumanda that I would do the same on Banderol.

That was a mistake for me.

[ 22. January 2008, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Chia Pet ]

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sixgoofykids
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Into your pants ... [lol] [lol] [lol]

I'm using Cowden after knocking down the Lyme and being symptom-free of coinfections. I hope it works better for you after getting these coinfections!

Most of my sweats went away with babs treatment .... but I still had a version of the sweats until bart was treated. They weren't quite as drenching as the babs sweats, but they were still pretty drenching.

It does sound like bart is a problem for you. I hope the abx treatment goes well and quickly.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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maryland
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I beginning to see the that the symptoms of babs and bartonella are similar. My LLMD believes I may have bartonella (night stickyness but not drenching sweats, and slight soreness & pain underneath my feet). Over the past 6 years I've had all (-) Igenx tests. Thoughts?? [confused]

--------------------
Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT,
Symptomatic:1999
Hospitalization: 2004
Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since.
Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly.

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Chia Pet
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quote:
Originally posted by SForsgren:
He still does energetic testing with the Asyra or other tools as mentioned in the article to determine what the patient may need for his own patients, but for the NutraMedix protocol, Zeolite now replaces Algas and Serrapeptase replaces Carnivora. Make sure you read and understand the difference between Zeolite and Zeolite HP. For most people, Zeolite is the one to start with first and then later progress to the HP. Also mentioned in the article. Be well

Does he explain the reason for the change from Carnivora to Serrapeptase? You mean I took that meat eating plant for naught? LOL
The carnivora was used briefly in the beginning of the protocol. Is the Serrapetase being used through the entire protocol now?

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CherylSue
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bumping
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SForsgren
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I believe it is represented in the current protocol from NutraMedix. I would take a look at the protocol on their site which should already contain the changes from Carnivora to Serrapeptase. If not, please let me know and I can help facilitate a response. Take care

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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CherylSue
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See the following link of Dr. H's study of the Cowden protocol with his patients. He also present this at the ILADS Lyme conference, I think

http://www.ilads.org/files/compendium07/Horowitz.pdf

In a nutshell, the protocol is not effective for babs. However, combined with abx it may be effective for Lyme, especially for those with GI problems and cannot tolerate high doses of ABX. It can be used in conjunction with ABX with a reduced dosage of abx along with the herbs.

The Cowden is moderately effective in 70% of his patients.

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kam
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up

Lyme Doc suggested I do the Cowden Protocol.

Don't have the funds to purchase the whole thing, but wondering about a limited protocol.

Am on amoxy and a sulfur drug right now.

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lymie tony z
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I believe the cowden protocol is no more effective against lyme/co infections then any other adjunctive herbal remedies.

These things I believe are used to get people to go out an buy certain products hawked by the

sales people when they put a DR. or MD. in the forfront of their advertising in an attempt to

gain some kind of respectability for their products. Nothing more.

Cowden can't claim he cures anything with his protocol and neither can any of the other

natural protocol, "Nutramedix" preferred or sold by SForsgren included.

Any individual who is not seriously ill may gain some health benefits by taking supplements

as opposed to leading an unhealthy lifestyle.

I quote, SForsgren who quotes Dr Cowden, who states in a sentence written by SForsgren in the NUTRAMEDIX newletter,

"A key component of Dr Cowden's approach
is the belief that if a patient does not deal with the numerous toxins stored within the body,

it will not only take longer to get rid of the disease, but the patient will generally not

remain symptom free and is more likely to relapse at a later time.


Toxins create an environment that supports the growth of microorganisms" Now this may say disease and

microorganisms but not specifically lyme or co/infections are ementioned.

I would tend to agree that the release of toxins from the body are essential in helping

people with any disease that causes these toxins feel better.

We all know that killing spirochetes do cause a neurotoxin to be released into our bodies.

Cleaning them out would be a necessary approach which just has to help us feel better.

Whatever protocol you may employ would be equally effective at ridding the body of unwanted toxins.

IMHO that's all.

zman

--------------------
I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman

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maryland
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My LLMD just yesterday took me off the entire full cowden because I have been getting worse (not a herx). So far I am not impressed with the protocol!

--------------------
Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT,
Symptomatic:1999
Hospitalization: 2004
Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since.
Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly.

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yanivnaced
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I'm all for herbal antibiotics and I think they are very effective.

Some of Nutramedix products are based on well known botanicals that have been used as antimicrobials for a long time. For example their product "Quina" is extracted from Cinchona Bark, which is basically the natural form of quinolone drugs (levaquin, cipro, etc).

Also, their Samento is an extract of Uncaria Tomentosa, another well documented and researched herb for microbes, AIDS and even some cancers.

However, they market other things like "Cumanda" and "Banderol".

Cumanda is extracted from Campsiandra angustifolia bark. There is no published research on the antimicrobial actions of this herb. And Banderol is extracted from the bark of the Otoba tree, again no published research that I could find anywhere.

I'd say that only a couple of herbs in the C protocol are proven microbe fighters, and you might rather use the raw form if you are so inclined - it would be a whole lot cheaper and you know exactly what you are taking.

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sixgoofykids
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I am loving the Cowden and feeling the best ever.

Absolutely essential = cumanda, samento, quina (alternates every two weeks with cumanda)

Here are what the rest is for so you can decide, Kam, what you need most.

detox = burbur, pinella, parsley

adrenal support = adrenals

Serra peptase is for breaking down fibrin, so I think it's important.

Magnesium (to help encourage 2-3 bm's per day for detox)

Trace minerals

Zeolite for chelating/binding heavy metals

Armantilla = valerian root .... maybe you can get it cheaper elsewhere.

--------------------
sixgoofykids.blogspot.com

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CD57
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Maybe it's on a case by case basis. We are not all the same, none of our stories are the same, etc etc.

My LLMD does not like Cowden and uses Buhner. Much cheaper, btw.

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kam
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bringing this back up to the top so I can read it when I get a chance
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Flyinpiker
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quote:
Does he explain the reason for the change from Carnivora to Serrapeptase? You mean I took that meat eating plant for naught? LOL
The carnivora was used briefly in the beginning of the protocol. Is the Serrapetase being used through the entire protocol now?

Anyone know the answer to this? Is it because Nutramedix is not able to manufacture Carnivora themselves for patent reasons or is Serrapeptase more effective?
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Lymeorsomething
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quote:
Originally posted by Flyinpiker:
Anyone know the answer to this? Is it because Nutramedix is not able to manufacture Carnivora themselves for patent reasons or is Serrapeptase more effective?

I don't think it matters too much. Serrapeptase just aids in dismantling biofilm and keeping blood thinner. The real guns of the protocol are the antimicrobials, especially Samento and Banderol.

--------------------
"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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aMomWithHope
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up--need to read the whole thread and don't want it to get lost on back pages--

Any updates from prior users as to their opinions now on this protocol?

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