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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Lyme persists in all dogs after ABX

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Author Topic: Lyme persists in all dogs after ABX
Greatcod
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Went to a support group today, and a woman mentioned that the vet who had treated her dog for Lyme told her that the Lyme persist for
life!! The quote below is a vet's. Anyone know of a vets journal article documenting
Lyme persistance in dogs.???

ONCE INFECTED=INFECTED FOR LIFE Antibiotics will reduce the signs of disease but it does not clear the spirochetes from the body. The larger the number of spirochetes in the tissue, the worse the clinical signs will be in that area of the body. Natural infection does NOT lead to protection against the disease

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adamm
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http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/35/1/111.pdf

Still doesn't prove it's incurable, IMHO.

They

were only treated for 30 days, and we already

knew that treatment for that short a time doesn't get you better.


It doesn't seem like any conclusive studies have been

done on

kind of REALLY comprehensive long term treatment that LLMD's

are willing to

give. You'll notice that no cyst-busters were used on these dogs'

'chetes. Of course it's impossible to eradicate the bugs if you

don't prevent them from forming spores.


Would it be possible to find out if this vet uses drugs that

target all of the forms of Bb?

[ 13. January 2008, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: adamm ]

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randibear
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so basically, how do you treat a dog with enlichosis? do they have to stay on antibiotics for life or can they be cured?

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ldfighter
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Here are a couple, both from Straubinger:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10048169&dopt=Citation

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=8968890

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adamm
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Ehrlichiosis ain't Lyme.
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Greatcod
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Thanks, guys..I am sure the difference is not due to a different immune response by dogs, but because the animals can be autopsied and we get their crappy blood tests which "prove" the infection is gone.
Unreal.

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Aligondo Bruce
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Cod, not only does lyme persist in most dogs {and horses} after abx treatment using standard drugs like doxy; it has also been shown that spirochetes can be recovered via culture or ID'd by PCR in many untreated dogs tor that show NOTHING on western blot or ELISA . In other words, the spirochetes are present, but the animal's immune system does not detect them and does not eliminate them.

The experience with dogs demonstrates two things: 1} standard abx regimens are typically useless; 2} standard testing using ELISA or WB in dogs and other mammals has a truly gigantic false negative rate.

It's pretty safe to assume this is true for humans too. The difference is that b/c they are studying animals, the vets are able to take tissue samples en masse. Rarely is human tissue cultured or PCR'd esp in later disease.

Quite simply stated, Bb s.s. in animals has been shown scientifically to conform to what LLMDs say happens in humans, not IDSA's BS version. The IDSA fools ignore the animal studies and restrict scientists from studying or publishing on these topics wrt humans. The post-anthrax scientific bioweapons gulag, 10 centers for WMD study involving virtually every university microbio and ID specialist in the nation, is in part IMO designed to allow the IDSA and EIS crooks even greater control over scientists and what they study. it takes MONEY to study these things. And you see the barbours and klempners in charge.

None of them are studying lyme disease! {other than the steere's etc.}

It is for many of these reasons that veterinarians in the US regard a positive WB in a dog to be 2 or 3 bands, not 5 as the IDSA fools require for humans.

Dogs actually recieve better science and better diagnostics than humans on this issue. That is a FACT.

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duke77
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Is this a surprise. Does anyone really think you get rid of 100% of any bacteria? You hope the abx and your immune system knock it into submission.
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AliG
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So sad!
[shake]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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Michelle M
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It imagine the IDSA will take the position that these dogs are "faking" it.

Probably trying to get out of going and getting the newspaper, or chasing cows.

Witness the following idiocy, straight from the IDSA Guidelines:
quote:

Studies indicate that antibiotics can cure B. burgdorferi infection in infected animals [36, 126, 321-323]--even those that are highly immunocompromised [321, 322]--but rare animals may remain culture positive [324], and a substantial proportion of animals will remain PCR positive in some [325-327], but not all, studies [324].

The significance of continued PCR positivity needs to be better understood, but this phenomenon should not necessarily be construed to indicate persistence of viable B. burgdorferi.

Unless proven otherwise, culture should be regarded as the gold standard to address viability of B. burgdorferi [330, 331]. This is especially true for animal studies in which access to tissues, both in amount and number of sites examined, is not limiting. The studies also show no evidence for recrudescence or persistence of clinical or histologic findings of an active inflammatory process consistent with B. burgdorferi infection when antibiotic‐treated animals are immunosuppressed [325, 327].

Therefore, even if a few residual B. burgdorferi spirochetes or their DNA debris persist after antibiotic treatment in animal systems, they no longer appear to be capable of causing disease.

Straight from the Guidelines, and truly a pack of lies.

First of all, it would be ridiculous to require as a "gold standard" the cultivation of a living spirochete known to be as elusive as b. burgdorferi. But if that's what you HAVE to have, it's been done.

But as usual, Steere and his ilk either cannot read, or simply ignore any studies they don't agree with.


Reliable Culture of Borrelia from previously treated Chronic lyme patients

Very sad. I always wonder how they made it through medical school, not able to read and all. Must have all had rich uncles or something.

Michelle

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adamm
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Mind-blowing! These monsters need to be tried for crimes against

humanity in an international tribunal!

[ 14. January 2008, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: adamm ]

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ByronSBell 2007
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Dogs have an upper hand with lyme disease comapred to us.

They're average body temp stays around 102F as ours is 98.6F

These lyme bacteria are very sensitive to heat so no wonder, dogs recover faster from lyme disease and it is more rare in dogs than it is humans...

Looks like someone needs to come out with a induced fever treatment fo lyme.

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Aligondo Bruce
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First, wrt michelle's IDSA quote. The idsa, again, is bending the truth and lying.

There have been studies by world experts in their fields in animals that indicate that in some species the viable spirochets go silent and then reactivate when stress is applied. Notably the phenomenon has been studied in migratory birds. You can't really compare birds to people, but there hasn't been any research to DISPROVE the phenomenon in people or higher mammals.

Sven bergstrom from sweden has pubbed that in mice, related old world relapsing fever borrelia sequester in the brain and can reemerge later in whole body infection after immune suppression/stress.

One BIG problem with some of these studies is the species they study. Let's take cats or dogs as an example, and compare to people. Well, if a cat or dog has a debilitating chronic lyme encephalopathy, it is going to be hard to prove from the behavioral perspective simply because cats and dogs are pretty lazy animals to begin with. Think about it. What these IDSA docs constantly refer to is not 'active disease' but rather their PERCEPTION of what constitutes active disease. And by this they are referring are to early, ,acute arthritic or meningitic disease, NOT lyme encephalopathy. The IDSA docs simply have no interest in exploring what happens in later disease when it is known that spirochetes sequester in preferred tissues and are dramatically reduced in numbers, and expressing a totally different repertoire of proteins as opposed to early disease.

If you simply let the disease run its course in dogs, some, but not nearly all, will develop palsy or arthritis. The same is true for people. The IDSA jerks simply have no interest in investigating late disease, particularly late lyme encephalopathy. Late arthritic disease IS studied, probably because hardly anyone has that form of disease.

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Aligondo Bruce
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Byron, I have to disagree with your statements on heat. As far as I know, Bb is NOT heat sensitive and is not killed by any temps less than 108 F, and even at that temp, for many hours.. Syphilis IS heat sensitive. But NOT Bb.
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treepatrol
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Bb has heat shock protiens its better at adapting to heat than other spirochetes and if it dosent like it it just cysts up.

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Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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randibear
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ok, maybe i'm spelling it wrong, but the woman said the dog had a disease caused by ticks and i think she was pronoucing it erchiosis, or echnoecea or something. anyway, help out here, she said definitely tick based and it was treated by antibiotics and she was cured.

the dog was adorable but i don't have the money for long term treatment and after loosing my baby, randi, i just couldn't bear going through that again.

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Greatcod
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What drives me totally nuts about the persistance arguement is whether Steere/IDSA ever sit down and ask themselves "What if we're wrong? Aren't we condemning tens of thoudands of people, including children, to lives of chromic illness?"
People aren't just making up stories about continuing serious sickness after standard Lyme treatment. They must know that.
People don't do that about sinus infections.
These are the same people whose flawed description of Lyme's presentation symptoms for 25 years ruined many lives, including mine, till the day we die.
Medicine is about human well being, not simply
biological science. We are not lab rats.

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adamm
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It's not that they're stupid; it's that they're psychopathic.

They know more about Bb than any other group, and this is

because they created it.


At the very least, this is a matter of them trying to cover their

asses, so it doesn't become known that they are responsible for

starting this epidemic, and being supported every step of the

way

by corporate

crooks.

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