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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Another Lyme / MP success story.

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Author Topic: Another Lyme / MP success story.
B R H
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http://bacteriality.com/2008/03/31/interview19
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cottonbrain
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Hey B, thanks for posting the article.

the recovered patient states,

"I learned from the MP site that beta-lactams will drive spirochetes into the stealthy L-form. This accounted for much of my backsliding."

i don't really get this -- does it mean that that the low dose abx do NOT make the spirochetes change forms? Instead they just keep them from reproducing until at last they die?

(forgive my obtuseness, but i have a lot of trouble reading and understanding.)

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charlie
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....A lot of us aren't convinced of the beta-lactam equals cyst form connection.

for example Art Doherty using high dose amoxicillin and those who have gotten permanent remission using rocephin and/or bicillin.

Or ceftin or whatever. Everything relating to TBDs is a bit nebulous and the rigid inflexible protocols usually produce spotty results.

Charlie

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Michelle M
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I notice the fellow never tested or treated for coinfections.

He does talk a lot about Post Lyme Syndrome.

Michelle

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bettyg
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bh, i've noticed every or 95% of your posts are only about the MP program.

you really push this on this board of abx and alternative methods.

why don't you reply to other things, etc. since you've gotten educated about other things besides mp?? please satisfy my curiosity; thank you! [Wink]

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diana
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Michelle,

Ken did several rounds of mepron for babesia. This is not mentioned in the article.

Diana

Posts: 202 | From vancouver, canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
B R H
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quote:
Originally posted by bettyg:
bh, i've noticed every or 95% of your posts are only about the MP program.

you really push this on this board of abx and alternative methods.

why don't you reply to other things, etc. since you've gotten educated about other things besides mp?? please satisfy my curiosity; thank you! [Wink]

It's hard enough finding time to post what little I do. I guess that's what happens when you recover from these illnesses & have a lot of life to catch up with!
Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
B R H
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quote:
Originally posted by cottonbrain:
Hey B, thanks for posting the article.

the recovered patient states,

"I learned from the MP site that beta-lactams will drive spirochetes into the stealthy L-form. This accounted for much of my backsliding."

i don't really get this -- does it mean that that the low dose abx do NOT make the spirochetes change forms? Instead they just keep them from reproducing until at last they die?

(forgive my obtuseness, but i have a lot of trouble reading and understanding.)

Don't think about it too hard. Bacteria are not intelligent entities. They are just gobs of chemistry floating around in our personal DNA soup. The borrelia spirochetes are probably not directly responsible for your illness at the moment. Think of them more like the straw that broke the camel's back. Borrelia simply added to your personal soup of pathogens. Borrelia has many plasmids it shares with other bad guys already floating around in your body. The result is all sorts of new "mutations", some more pathogenic than others. It makes no sense at all to focus on any single species of bacteria!

More importantly, a healthy immune system WILL clear borrelia. Your immune system was already compromised, whether or not you showed symptoms before the borrelia. This is why 90% of the population gets better with no intervention or with a little help from conventional treatment. Your immune system is ultimately responsible for clearing any infection. Drugs alone cannnot completely clear any infection.

Low dose bacteriostatic antibiotics drastically slow the bacteria (l-form or otherwise) reproduction giving your immune system a larger window of opportunity to find & destroy them. Another advantage of low dose antibiotic therapy is that it does much less harm to the host (us). What really makes MP unique is the addition of Benicar to activate the innate immune system thru the vitamin D receptor (VDR) (that has been dysregulated by the l-forms).

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Cold Feet
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BRH,

Well said. But even as an MP patient who has seen incredible progress & healing, I still wonder about Bb; namely, I am not so sure it should be relegated to the diminutive role that you suggest. Bb (et al) are highly sophisticated germs with incredible capabilities:

- Change forms when challenged;
- Extracellularly: can "cloak" and hide when in colonies with biofilm;
- Intracellularly: can "cloak" and hide after entering cells, e.g. blood cells by changing OSPs;
- Can outrun the fastest immune phages.

On the last point, how does the body's immune defenses "catch" Bb? You may recall this abstract I posted a while back.

I am not disagreeing with much else. I do know this: the more I learn, the less I know!!!
___________________

Clocking the Lyme Spirochete
Stephen E. Malawista1* and Anne de Boisfleury Chevance2
1Department of Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut, United States of America2Centre d'Ecologie Cellulaire, Hpital de la Salptrire, Paris, France Frederick Ausubel, Academic Editor
Massachusetts General Hospital, United States of America. Conceived and designed the experiments: SM. Performed the experiments: Ad. Analyzed the data: SM Ad. Contributed reagents/materials/analysis tools: Ad. Wrote the paper: SM. Received October 15, 2007; Accepted January 16, 2008.

ABSTRACT

In order to clear the body of infecting spirochetes, phagocytic cells must be able to get hold of them. In real-time phase-contrast videomicroscopy we were able to measure the speed of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the Lyme spirochete, moving back and forth across a platelet to which it was tethered. Its mean crossing speed was 1,636 m/min (N = 28), maximum, 2800 m/min (N = 3).

This is the fastest speed recorded for a spirochete, and upward of two orders of magnitude above the speed of a human neutrophil, the fastest cell in the body. This alacrity and its interpretation, in an organism with bidirectional motor capacity, may well contribute to difficulties in spirochete clearance by the host.

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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B R H
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I think the notion of a Bb spirochete being chased around by a neutrophil is silly. It's not like the spirochete has eyes, sees the macrophage coming, & runs the other way. If Bb is truly speedy (which I don't doubt), it's still just a matter of time before it bumps into a macrophage that engulfs it.

If Bb were so "smart", it would proliferate, making testing far easier & more conclusive. I haven't seen any evidence to convince me that a healthy immune response by the host won't overcome Bb.

In fact, I actually agree with most of the medical community in that Bb by itself is simply not responsible for chronic Lyme Disease (or whatever you want to call it). It's the many plasmids Bb has & can share that makes it so evil. The "offspring" of that sharing, i.e., the "Th1 pathogens", are causing the chronicity of the disease, not the Bb itself.

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jamescase20
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Generally tetras dont make lyme go cyst form. No matter the dose. Cell wall inhibs do. Bigtime.
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Cold Feet
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Good points. However:

``If Bb is truly speedy (which I don't doubt), it's still just a matter of time before it bumps into a macrophage that engulfs it...''

Well said, if one's immune system is healthy. But if one is part of the U.S. population and on this board, chances are that one already has an immunocompromised system. Maybe your neutrophil count is low (or other critical WBCs). So that critical ``matter of time'' can be an eternity, perhaps enough time for even slow-growth Bb to do their magic. And when you consider the points I made earlier about its other defense mechanisms, your points are less compelling. Perhaps that's why this board is so active...?

``If Bb were so "smart", it would proliferate, making testing far easier & more conclusive...''

I disagree. Reproduction takes energy (everyone past 40 knows this...you must be younger). [Wink] Why be crazy and reproductive when you have found the perfect host without reproducing frenetically? This is a cellular design cycle that Bb has optimized. It is perfectly efficient and perfectly parasitic.

I want to believe that we can eradicate these evil bugs with the latest and best protocol. That's why I am doing this demanding protocol (MP). But these bugs travel to avascular places, change forms and go dormant. In other words, there's more to the healing story I need for my long-term peace of mind.

James, right on about the cell wall inhibitors - is it not yet common knowledge? This fact was discovered 70 years ago! E.g., see this Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoxicillin Notice the big pharma company who's been pushing it on doctors, GlaxoSmithKline. As well, this "old" debate keys into many of the IDSA's complaints about antibiotics. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

Posts: 828 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
B R H
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Again, you are promoting a notion of intelligence with a bacteria. I doubt they communicate their populations/growth rate to each other. If given a chance, they will proliferate - it's in their DNA, they have no "choice."

I don't disagree that Bb could be considered parasitic, but I also don't believe every last bug needs to be eradicated to attain normal health. The health of our immune system is key. One thing for sure is that the tenacity of Bb might make me avoid beta-lactam antibiotics completely in the future!

PS. I'm about 1 year shy of 40 & plan to be kickin' the @sses of riders half my age again soon enough! [Smile]

Posts: 246 | From Grass Valley, CA | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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