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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » NAC - How would it cause activation of pain & symptoms?

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Author Topic: NAC - How would it cause activation of pain & symptoms?
painted turtle
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I recently added NAC.

About two days later, the severe face pain and also the strangeness was activated to a very large degree, and the neck and spine arthritis got a worsening effect.

I am trying to pinpoint how/why this happened and so far adding the NAC seems plausible.

Anyone know, scientifically, or from experience how this works, why this would happen?

Or it might not be related to adding the NAC at all, just coincidental. The only way to really know is take a couple weeks, then try it again and see if it happens again.

--------------------
www.lymefire.blogspot.com

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Marnie
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Bb, like HIV, has "zinc fingers".

This is the amino acids cysteine and histidine bound to zinc.

As I understand it.

The MMPs activated bind zinc, making it "unavailable".

But they destroy collagen and elastin.

Catch 22.

Please note...Bb is using a LOT of the nutrients we need as well. This makes the situation very difficult because WE cannot be without those nutrients.

For example...Bb apparently uses Mn to replicate. But we NEED some Mn. Some. Bb needs Na because this pathogen we KNOW follows "CO2 fixation" process (I posted this route step by step...easy to understand).

Bb needs choline too...and sooo much more. It has more than one outer cell wall...which is made from several amino acids.

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painted turtle
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Marnie, being the scientific genius, I was hoping you'd respond....and Simply! Thanks.

Does this mean, NAC is to take or not to take?

(I plan to give it one more go around in a few weeks to see if it is indeed, the culprit)

Also, do you know the diff. between choline citrate and choline bitartrate, which I will be adding next (the citrate).

How does one offset or accomodate, or work around the zinc fingers, take zinc?

--------------------
www.lymefire.blogspot.com

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Keebler
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-

There is a lot out emphasis on NAC for treating chronic Chlamydia pneumonia - Cpn. You can read some of that at www.cpnhelp.org - it may relate here as well.

sorry I can't be more specific, but some think it may be a cyst buster for Cpn, anyway. I don't know about lyme but it's work reading more about. I'm trying to figure that out right now, too.

-

[edited to add: I just went to the Cpn site and can't easily find what I'm looking for regarding NAC. I know I've seen it and will try later and come back when I do. I know I've read of patients experience a herx just from NAC.


-

[ 06. July 2008, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]

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Rianna
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NAC increases the levels of Glutathione and as you increase the levels of Glutathione you will start to mobalize toxins, it can therefore initally cause a herx like reaction.

Pure Glutathione itself does this and patients can get increased symptoms from mobilizing these toxins for a period of time, although if you persist you will gradually see the benefits - as these toxins have to be removed. If the body has elevated levels of toxins, raising glutathione can cause significant Herxheimer-type reactions as pathogens are killed and toxins are mobilized.

Make sure you take other detox aids with the NAC - i.e. Vitamin C, Burbur/Parsley drops, and lots of water.

Rianna

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Marnie
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Bb's PKCD inhibitor is impacting tyrosine kinase when it impacts the CD3delta cells.

PKCD = protein kinase C - delta form.

"delta" is related to whether or not a cell lives or dies. PKCD, if it WAS there and active looks to signal the release of cytochrome C which triggers cell DEATH.

Bb hits CD3D cells. Kapoot. CD3D cells need to signal other cells, esp. CD4...

How to get tryrosine kinase up?

ROS...reactive oxygen species...free radicals...trigger tyrosine kinase.

Bb NEEDS/wants this to happen.

Bb binds N to O to make NO...

And then uses a protein in its cell wall to lock onto this combination (cytochrome C and NO).

Bb protein ~ (cytochrome C + NO)

We are using far infrared at the 880nM wavelength to OXIDIZE that cytochrome C. Puff...cytochrome C is gone. Specifically COX-1 does this.

COX-2 is UP because of TNF alpha and IL1 B. It is the "bad" COX enzyme. 1 and 3 are protective, 2 is "bad".

We need protective COX-1 activated. This leads to HO-1...which I've explained a ton of times.

If cytochrome C is oxidized,what will Bb hang onto?

As long as cytochrome C+ NO are bound to the protein in Bb's outer cell wall the cell in which Bb is camped out lives forever. This is called an immortal cell or HeLa cell.

So Bb can continue to receive nutrients we need as well as avoid our immune system...all the while damaging that cell (OUR DNA becomes "undermethylated").

Not good.

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painted turtle
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I have some powdered Vita C and some parsley leaf capsules from Nature's Way. The drops I could not find, or were too expensive.

Are parsley capsules as good as the tincture?

The face (trigeminal nerve) pain has subsided after two or threes days of no NAC. I may try it again but add Vita C and the parsley to see what happens.

Moving the toxins is necessary, and I gotta get 'em OUT FOR GOOD!

--------------------
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Jill E.
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It also depends on the dosage of NAC.

When I first got Lyme and didn't know what it was, I was self-medicating the neuropathy with high-dose NAC.

A very smart nutritionist I started seeing told me to stop immediately. He showed me an article by the VP of Doctors Data Lab, indicating that pharmaceutical doses of NAC (I believe 800 mg. and above) could mobilize mercury and lead out of the body's storage and into the brain and central nervous system.

Because we suspected that my symptoms might have been a metals toxicity, I stopped the NAC. Alpha lipoic acid can also do this, but to a lesser extent, is what I was told.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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Marnie
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According to what I've read, Bb can NOT grow in gelatin.

Now..gelatin is high in all the amino acids except one: tryptophan (which we need to make serotonin -> melatonin, our #2 major anti-oxidant).

Bb needs tryptophan...without it...Bb is kapoot...perhaps.

But...gelatin is VERY high in glycine which is the smallest amino acid (protein building block) and the ONLY ONE that does not have a "mirror image".

Something else happens...tryptophan (5HT directly converts) -> ***serotonin which binds to sialic acid*** (a 10 carbon sugar).

Now Bb needs sialic acid as this is incorporated in biofilm = proteins + sugar chain....

Further explanation in my recent biofilm more post...

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Rianna
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by painted turtle:
[QB] Are parsley capsules as good as the tincture? Moving the toxins is necessary, and I gotta get 'em OUT FOR GOOD!

I am unsure regarding the parsley capsules, I personally use Nutramedix Parsley & Burbur.

Yes you re so right the toxins MUST go.

NAC was a very good starting point for me although when I moved over to IV Glutathione that was the a real eye opener - within an hour I could not co-ordinate my words, I had slurred speach and it literally felt like the toxins were being pulled from my brain it was sooooo scary, but then the benefits were outstanding, my mobility improved so quickly.

Again I have now been on intense detox for 5 months and know this intense detox has been the key to my improvement as I have gone from bed ridden to being able to be up and around every day, doing really normal things on some days - So I personally can not understate the importance of high detox when taking AB's.

Rianna

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Keebler
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-

Marnie - thanks for all the posts.

Interesting, tryptophan has a connection to the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway, too. I don't know what to make of it, but it's interesting that porphyria patients (who have decreased enzymes that hamper the C P-450 process) can't process tryptophan very well.

Secondary or chronic porphryia can occur in patients with toxic, chronic infections. The Chlamydia Pneumonia protocols have more information about that at www.cpnhelp.org/secondaryporphyria - the herx process seems to push this.

I know some lyme patients have a hard time with tryptophan or 5-HTP.

=======================================


http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/222/4627/1031

Science 2 December 1983:_Vol. 222. no. 4627,
pp. 1031-1033
DOI: 10.1126/science.6648517

Science, Vol 222, Issue 4627, 1031-1033
Copyright 1983 by American Association for the Advancement of Science

L-tryptophan: a common denominator of biochemical and neurological events of acute hepatic porphyria?

DA Litman and MA Correia

Excerpt:

These findings suggest that increased tryptophan and 5-hydroxytryptamine in the nervous system may be responsible for the neurologic dysfunctions observed in humans with acute attacks of hepatic porphyria.

--

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

PubMed Search: tryptophan, porphyria- 59 abstracts

Among those:

Biochem Pharmacol. 2008 Feb 1;75(3):704-12. Epub 2007 Oct 2.
Hepatic alteration of tryptophan metabolism in an acute porphyria model Its relation with gluconeogenic blockage.

Lelli SM, Mazzetti MB, San Martn de Viale LC.

Laboratorio de Disturbios Metablicos por Xenobiticos, Salud Humana y Medio Ambiente (DIMXSA), Departamento de Qumica Biolgica, Facultad de Ciencias Exactas y Naturales, Universidad de Buenos Aires, Ciudad Autnoma de Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Excerpt:

This study focuses on the alterations suffered by the serotoninergic and kinurenergic routes of tryptophan (TRP) metabolism in liver, and their relation with gluconeogenic phosphoenolpyruvate-carboxykinase (PEPCK) blockage in experimental acute porphyria.

==================================

J Assoc Physicians India. 2002 Mar;50:443-5.

Respiratory failure in acute intermittent porphyria.

Tyagi A, Chawla R, Sethi AK, Bhattacharya A.
Department of Anaesthesiology, UCMS and GTB Hospital, Shahdara, Delhi.

We report two patients of acute intermittent porphyria (AIP) who presented with acute respiratory failure. Only one such previous report could be found. Occasionally, neuropathy may be the presenting feature in AIP which may progress to respiratory embarrassment.

The cause of this neuropathy has been hypothesized to be direct neurotoxicity of delta-ALA by interaction with GABA receptor, altered tryptophan metabolism and may be heme depletion in nerve cells.


-

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Keebler
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-

Here's part of a post from a patient on a protocol for Cpn - she offers her explanation for NAC's herx-like reaction.

Note that she responds from the place of being a Cpn patient. Ppatients with other chronic stealth infections (such as lyme) might respond similarly in regards to NAC if it affects pathogens in any manner.

Fourth post down in this thread: Topic: Vanderbuilt protocal?

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=065926;p=2

-----

from a CPN site poster, MacKintosh:

excerpt:

. . .

Most of us (early patients) treated empirically for cpn. We couldn't find consistently good testing sites, so we went on symptoms and logic. A good test is to take N Acetyl Cysteine, which is great for liver support and shouldn't show any kind of reaction in a 'healthy' person.

If you take it and get what we call 'NAC flu', you can probably be reassured you have a cpn infection and should try the Vanderbilt or Wheldon protocol.

NAC flu is basically a 'flu-like' reaction to NAC. I believe they come in 600mg capsules and you start with one capsule.(I routinely take 2400mg/daily, and will for the rest of my life, as it will inhibit any future cpn infection.)

It can be as mild as a runny nose, to fluctuating body temps, to tinnitus, to a feeling the 'flu is coming on' (that body ache, back of the calves weakness, headachey, ear ache thing).

These would not be normal reactions to taking NAC, which is pretty benign. Sinus involvement or lung congestion or the flu-like reactions after taking NAC are telltale signs.

I had a constantly runny nose, mild inner ear pressure and a fever-like feeling, but no fever. It can last from a few days to a few weeks, once you take NAC consistently. . . .

. . .

(MacK.)

-

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painted turtle
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Thanks everyone!

Okay, here's the update and new postulation.

I washed out for about three to four days.

Last night I took 600mg of NAC.

The wash out gave me time to calm the trigeminal nerve in my face to get it back to its baseline pain level.

This morning, it was acting up again.

The arthritis too, my knee is burning and the back of my head, neck and down my spine.

It dawned on me this morning, NAC is a Sulfa element.

And I am allergic to sulfa.

Could it be a reaction to the sulfa or does it sound like the moving of toxins.

The other thing is that today the pressure is VERY LOW, lots of low laying clouds, which does tend to exaccerbate my arthritis symptoms, and the migraine like feelings.

THIS IS SO HARD!!

What do you think?

--------------------
www.lymefire.blogspot.com

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tosho
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Nac is N-Acetyl Cysteine.

Worsening of symptoms on NAC may be due to:

- detoxification process

- moving mercury to the brain. Some chelation practicioners say that NAC can move mercury to the brain. Bad thing.
(I don't know if this theory is true)

- killing Chlamydia pneumoniae. This bacteria has 3 forms. NAC kills one of these 3 forms.

- allergy to NAC (?) (not likely)


People on cpnhelp.org take NAC long-term
Look at this chart:
http://cpnhelp.org/summary_chart_of_differen

Maybe get tested for chlamydia species ?

--------------------
[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

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Larkspur
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Hi painted - NAC has always made me herx like crazy - I believe for me b/c of the detox element

My LLMD is a very very strong advocate of detox, so whenever we add these types of supplements I have to go super slow or I get myself in big trouble!

I usually start with about an 1/8 of whatever the recommended dose is and then increase it incremently after 5 days - eventually I get up to the full dose!

--------------------
"We must be willing to get rid of
the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us" - e.m. forster

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Jill E.
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NAC and supplements like that which support the liver are sulfer, not sulfa - sulfa is the drug which many people (including me) are allergic to. Different than sulfer.

Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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Peck
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maybe it depends in which coast you live. Sulfah (?) or Sulfrrrr

[Smile]

--------------------
simplify....

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luvs2ride
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maybe it depends in which coast you live. Sulfah (?) or Sulfrrrr
[Big Grin]

Jill, Thanks for pointing out the difference between sulfur and sulfa as I too have a sulfa allergy.

Painted Turtle,

When I first started NAC, the bottle recommended 3 tablets daily which is 1800 mg. I was following this and my joints flared badly. My doctor said to ease up that NAC can cause a herx reaction.

So I dropped to one tablet daily which I tolerated well. I do have CPn and didn't know NAC was good for that. I take it for detox. How many mgs were you taking, PT?

Since I have not had a reaction to it for 2 yrs now, I wonder if I should increase it. Dr has me on an intense detox protocol.

IV glutathione has never caused a herx for me but always makes me feel great. I am requesting it for life. My doctor wants me to use glutathione suppositories but she doesn't have them in yet. Anyone have any experience with them?

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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painted turtle
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That's funny Peck.

Yeah, I'm often embarrassed these days at how retarded this neuroborrelia has made me.

I can't wait to get my old fluent inttelligent energetic vibrant self back. It's been like years now.

I did 600 mg, so not that much. One day the pressure was really low so I attributed to a lot of the pain to that. I added parsely flakes to help with the detox and it looks like I've adjusted a little bit.

It's that after all this time, and I'm really good at denial, I mean, how much can a person herx?

I'm going to check into glutathione next, my LLMD talked about it at our first visit as someting to maybe do down the road.

Thanks for the feedback!

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www.lymefire.blogspot.com

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