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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » 880nM and 1072nM what is the difference? IMPORTANT

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Author Topic: 880nM and 1072nM what is the difference? IMPORTANT
Marnie
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Our studies have also shown that 1072nM and 880nM elicit

opposing effects upon lymphocyte viability ex vivo, the former being protective and the latter wavelength cytotoxic.

Furthermore, we provide evidence that 1072nm protects against UV-mediated lymphotoxicity.


http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=WO2006%2F000757&WO=2006%2F000757&DISPLAY=DESC

880nM destroys lymphocytes that are infected, but 1072nM protects them.

Now some good stuff:

The 880nM wavelength looks like it effects CH2 groups.

CH2 is: a methylene group.

Go to the following link and

find the chart: ``Typical Infrared Absorption Frequencies''

Look for Alkenes. CH2. See 880nM adjacent?

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/coi/cda/detail.cda?id=18427&type=EducationFeature&chId=2&page=1

(Thanks to Bob for that link!)

Go here and look closely:

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/252/4/1414.pdf

(right hand side, page 1)

See CH2 in the 3 step reaction?

What has this got to do with Bb?

Guess what...(I will translate in a sec.)

Figure 1. Alignment of deduced amino acid sequences for ***HMG-CoA synthases***to indicate the location of the mutated glutamic acid. All full-length HMG-CoA synthase sequences were obtained from public databases.

Alignment was generated by using the Pileup program of Genetics Computer Group Sequence Analysis Software. The boldfaced column indicates E95 is invariant among these species.

Letters ``c'' and ``m'' specify cytosolic and mitochondrial isoforms respectively.

Genus species Accession Number
M. thermoautotrophicum AE000857

***Borrelia burgdorferi BB0683***

Translation:

Bb is triggering/synthesizing/making HMG-CoA. This enzyme controls the cholesterol pathway.

HMG-CoA IS this: 3-Hydroxy-3-*methyl*glutaryl-CoA

Remember CH2 is: a *methyl*ene group

I need you to go to the following and see the picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMG-CoA_reductase_pathway


Look for HMG CoA synthase and then look for HMG-Co A reductase.

This is the cholesterol pathway.

(Mg and the ARB drug, Benicar both in high doses INhibit HMG CoA reductase.)

Once again...

It looks like the 880nM wavelength impacts the CH2 groups in HMG CoA.

So if we disrupt the *making of HMG CoA* by using the 880nM wavelength which impacts CH2

OR INhibit HMG CoA reductase...both of these will shut down the cholesterol pathway...which IS one of the pathways Bb is taking.

While 1072nM is "healing"...880nM "destroys" the cells that Bb is INFECTING - our defense cells.

The reverse:

"Not only did 1072nm light ***enhance lymphocyte survival*** but it also protected the cells against the adverse effects of ultraviolet light."

We need, IMO, the infected cells (and Bb in them) to die.

And THEN....promote restoration via 1072nM.

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sparkle7
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Thanks for putting all of this together, Marnie.

How about the 660 nm waves?

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Marnie
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The dust is building up on my furniture...

LOL...

Gotta run.

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lymie_in_md
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We may find the best way to fight Bb is a combination of lightwaves. UV over the belly button to clean the blood of pathogens. 660nm for restoration, 880 for defense, 1072 for restoration -- and somehow I think this kills pathogens at the same time. I think there is healing wavelength between 1300 and 1400. I just hasn't been found yet.

--------------------
Bob

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herxuk
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So 880 nm destroys the cells that Bb are infecting ???

Then maybe it's not just the immune system boosting affect. ???
I'm not choosy, If it helps. Marnies dusting should be done by now.
She must have got the cleanest house on the planet.

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sparkle7
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I was using the 880 nm pretty consistently & I sure feel the destruction going on...

I didn't use the 660 nm for some reason. I'm starting to use it now, though.

I did a search & didn't find too much about 660 other than stuff I've read already.

Maybe I'll have better luck tomorrow?

Time for a nap before bed...

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Dave6002
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Marnie, thanks, very informative post.

quote:
The 880nM wavelength looks like it effects CH2 groups.
The unit for 880 in that article is frequency in cm-1,so its wavelength is 11360nm.
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aklnwlf
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Thanks Marnie for posting this. I was really interested in the thread Bionic 880 that was deleted.

I wasn't able to follow all of your post but it sounds like the 1072nm would be more conducive to healing than 880nm.

I'm so glad that you're putting more than your 2 cents worth into the fray.

Bumping this up for those that are still looking into LED alternatives.

--------------------
Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.

Alaska Lone Wolf

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sparkle7
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re: The unit for 880 in that article is frequency in cm-1,so its wavelength is 11360nm.

How do you get this, Dave? Is that still within the infrared wavelength range? The next category is microwaves on the electromagnetic spectrum.

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lymie_in_md
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INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY

Maybe the following would help and thanks dave. I thought the nomenclature was synomous:

We use the term infrared spectroscopy in a general sense to include diffuse reflection spectroscopy or transmission spectroscopy in the following wavelength ranges:



Visible: 350 to 700 nm (28,571 to 14,286 cm-1)
Near-infrared: 700 to 2,500 nm (14,286 to 4,000 cm-1).
Mid-infrared: 2,500 nm to 25,000 nm (4,000 to 400 cm-1)



We also include attenuated total reflectance (ATR), which is a reflection technique that is increasingly being used as a substitute for mid-infrared transmission spectroscopy.

--------------------
Bob

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northstar
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http://www.anatomyfacts.com/Research/photonc.htm

ok, i think this has nothing to do with your discussion, but could not find another thread.

It's a huge paper written 2006 summarizing biophoton stuff. Popp related, not W. There are about 800 references at the bottom.

Maybe too detailed, but what do I know.

Just dropping it off.

Northstar

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maureen2174
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the lightworks is 880nm and 660nm- what do you use for 1072nm?

i haven't been following the bionic 880 thread that much and now it is deleted.

sorry if this has already been discussed.

thanks

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Robin123
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A 660nm red light hand-held unit (three lights on mine; can be different numbers) reduces pain whenever I wave it over a swollen joint area.
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herxuk
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If the 880nM destroys the cells that Bb is infecting.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think, that our own body will replace these cell's with healthy ones anyway. ?? that is, once these deceased cells are cleared out of the way. ??

Cells die and replaced by new ones all the time. There for, the 1072nM may not be all that necessary.
( Especially if we haven't got that range anyway )

Any thought's on this, anybody . ??

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lymie_in_md
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None of us are scientists, to understand the science is to give a good read to the link Northstar provided us. There is very good information there.

1072nm is used in the light helmet. A man was treated with it and got substantially better. Read the links:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1231102/infrared_helmet_may_cure_alzheimers/index.html

http://blog.cognitivelabs.com/2008/07/infrared-helmet-may-hold-promise-for.html

The man looks to be in his 50's a little young to have degenerated naturally. And after the work of Dr. Alan Macdonald it isn't much of a stretch to think undiagnosed lyme. 1072 might be another effective light wavelength against lyme.

--------------------
Bob

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northstar
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LIM,
I thought it was pretty ferocious too...
but I did recognize some of the words!
Just passing it along...maybe somethingcould
help in
the references....all 800+ of them!

Just passing through,

Northstar

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lymie_in_md
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Northstar,

Putting you on the spot, what do you think of the 1072nm used in the light helmet. Just interested in some feedback.

Its great that Popp is willing to take steps others are afraid to. I've been converted to the concept that biophysics will eventually fully describe biology much more then biochemistry will.

There is great deal to learn from his work. The problem is to grasp it. I'll take my time on the references. [Wink]

--------------------
Bob

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northstar
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Since I know very little about this stuff, I could not offer an opinion.

I did read an analysis of this helmet study, which I think just came out this summer.

There were positive results on this study, but previous studies were mixed. So then you have to drag out the studies and figure out what were the differences between them that may account for variable outcome.

I understand the fear of alzheimers, and thus the need to find ways to keep it out of our future.

So, no opinion! I dont know enough!

But, if I remember where I saw that article, I will post it!
And the study, if I find it, too.

Sorry I could not help more!

Northstar

ok, here is a site that critiques methodology,ethics of press releases
before definitive study, sample size,
generalizability, and so on.

They are
evidence based, and have links to quack
watch, and other skeptical sites.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=32
It is helpful to read even though they
label themselves skeptics. They do find
some chinks in the armor.

The 880 would not hold up under their scrutiny
either. But that does not mean biophoton
therapy does not work. These guys use a
different standard of evaluation. One does not have to accept
their standard, but at least one has to be aware
of others viewpoints.
I'll keep looking.
=============================
here is an interesting site about how they
arrived at the 1072 number. Originally about HSV-1
healing, and how the switched to 1072. Some
mention of 880 at the bottom

http://tinyurl.com/6rke5u
===================================
And here is one for Marnie. This guy
has a science blog. He has his own
theory of alzheimers, based on NO.
http://tinyurl.com/6x3njj

Beware: chemical stuff
=================================
all I did was a google on
alzheimer's 1072 nm

tons of stuff.
==============

[ 08. August 2008, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: northstar ]

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Marnie
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If Bb is INTRAcellular...likely it would be beneficial to be able to get AT Bb via destroying the cell

in which it is "camped out".

Not unlike cancer...those cells need to be destroyed...SLOWLY because our body then has to "separate" the garbage (the things that make up a cell) that happens when cells die and haul the "pieces" away.

Now onto vaccuming the floors and steaming the tile - Yuck. (guests tonight...birthday celebration).

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DolphinLady
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.
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sparkle7
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science based medicine... quite a skeptical bunch.

With all the money being spent of drug research - I don't think they have anything better for Alzheimers... Maybe the drug Marnie posted last week sometime...?

One "scientist" said he thought it may be good at first but then it will cause the cells to burn out & crash. Hence, people would revert to a worse state by his method of reasoning...

I'm no scientist but I've read a number of technical studies... not one has said there are any dangers of long term exposure to infrared light. If fact, I've seen some that say infrared light can protect the cells.

So much for the PhDs & skeptics. I'm sure they were all worried about creating chemicals like DDT, thalidimide, PCBs, DES, & cell phones & protecting us from the dangers before exposing many people to them - NOT.

Why are they pulling apart something that may have real benefits? Ultimately, no one knows why infrared light makes us feel better... For some reason, it does do something. They really don't know enough about it to say one way or another how it works.

I have seen studies that state it is safe & there have been scientific tests to prove it. Actual studies, not junk tabaloid science...

They just have a knee jerk reaction to something unfamiliar... I guess it makes them feel comfortable to bash something that they have no knowledge about.

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oxygenbabe
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I vaguely recall a gizmo that was supposedly for wrinkles using 1072--from England. This was a few years ago.
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northstar
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http://www.restorelite.co.uk/index.php

If you check the science tab,
it looks like it is the same
developer?

Northstar

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oxygenbabe
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Yes, northstar, good find! That was it. A small gizmo for the face. I remember it now.
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lymie_in_md
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1072nm looks like a promising led wave length for treatment for lyme along with 880nm. It is up to us to be creative in how treatment might be established with practioners. It takes a long time for practioners to know what may or may not work. We've been using the lightworks, it might be a good idea to suggest to the manufacturer to create a 1072nm paddle. Any thoughts?

--------------------
Bob

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sparkle7
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You might be able to use the device for herpes/wrinkles on other areas for it's effect on protecting the lymphocytes?

Like the wrists, for examples.

Once the blood cells receive the light, they may circulate it around the body. I think I read a study about that... I'd have to do some research to find it.

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sparkle7
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Bob - I'll post a note on the LightWorks group about it. The guy from SOTA looks at that message board sometimes...
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sparkle7
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More... I found some studies where BLUE light can cause ROS (reactive oxygen species).

THIS IS IMPORTANT! If light can cause this ROS... it may mean that it is damaging the body.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3931/is_200405/ai_n9445452/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

This is specifically in regards to blue light. I don't think we have to worry about this with infrared light but just to be on the safe side... people using light therapy may want to increase anti-oxidants like:

NAC
vitamin E

These were found to be protective in the case of overexposure to blue light.

I don't think they found vitamin C to be of use. You may also want to take more glutathione.

Just go slow with using any light device for healing. There is still alot we don't know.

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Marnie
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The blue wavelength is the "shortest" and

most powerful (and potentially dangerous).

We need some...a LITTLE (!)...blue wavelength exposure (which is in white light).

BTW...far infrared IS used now to help correct wrinkles!

http://www.soleilspamiami.com/anti_aging.html

Here is a cool site (Time mag.):

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1666284,00.html

Know what wavelength is produced by red stop lights?

;-)

Sitting at a traffic light may have its "upside"!

I have a couple of pages on 660nM...gotta try to put it together in a more understandable format.

Our eyes are incredibly sensitive to light...so I am hesitant/nervous when I see pic. on the internet of people who have his/her face plastered right directly in front of a far infrared LED.

I would NOT do that. I would protect my eyes with those tiny goggles that you can get from tanning places.

???

"Antiglare devices are widely used in the welding and cutting torch technology, but are also used in the military and entertainment industries. As a rule, with these antiglare devices the radiation above 780 nm (infrared) and below 365 nm (ultraviolet) are filtered and only the radiation in the visible range is dimmed."

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sparkle7
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I think the study of blue light was done in regards to macular degeneration. I also read that blue can be helpful when used on the blood for chloresterol & it can make it less sticky.

You just have to use a little caution. UV light can be damaging but it can also be anti-bacterial & helpful for people with psoraisis.

From what I've read, ALL the visible light wavelengths can cause oxidative stress on the body. It seems that infrared may be protective.

Nature seems to have an ultimate logic in putting all of these lightwaves together & creating an ozone layer to filter out some of the dangerous ones.

We just have to be careful of singling out a particular wavelenght. There needs to be more studies to pinpoint dosages, wavelength, frequencies, brightness, etc.

Combinations of wavelengths may be good, too. I'm still feeling the benefits of using the infrared light. I think it's helpful but we do have to remember that it's still in the early, experimental stages.

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lymie_in_md
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From the following : link

http://www.emred.fi/htmls_en/laser_blood_irradiation_therapy_en.html

Blue Light Blood Irradiation Therapy
Methods of laser and non-laser (incoherent, monochromic, narrow-band or broadband) light blood irradiation therapy are widely applied in the treatment of different pathologies.

Ultraviolet light was the first light, successfully used for blood irradiation therapy.

In the second half of the XX century laser blood irradiation was introduced. Recently it was shown that blue light irradiation of blood can also be successfully used in the therapy of different conditions.

It was discovered that several molecules in the blood have absorption spectra in blue region.

It was proposed, that blue light can have positive effects in the therapy of different conditions.

H. Kost et al. (1986) offered to irradiate blood with incoherent narrow-band blue light for the treatment of patients with ischemic heart

disease and hypertensive disease. The decrease of low-density lipoproteins and cholesterol amount in the blood serum was detected. Further studies showed that blue light blood irradiation has wide therapeutic activities.

V.I. Karandashov et al. (1996, 2000) studied the medical and biological actions of extracorporeal blue light irradiation in animal experiments and clinical trials.

It was reported that viscosity of blood decreased immediately after the reinfusion of the blue light irradiated blood.

It is important to mention, that the viscosity of the blood plasma also reduced, but to smaller degree than the viscosity of blood.

It can improve the blood microcirculation, increase nutrients and oxygen supply to different tissues. It can also help in delivery of medication to the target tissues.

After blood irradiation the decrease of concentration of cholesterol, triglycerides, lipoproteins and glucose was also detected in patients with originally increased values.

No signs for blood cell damage was obtained. The blue light blood irradiation therapy helped to keep the level of atherogenic lipids in the blood of patients with atherosclerosis relatively low for several months.

Blue blood irradiation had favorable results for patients with bronchial asthma. Patients reported improvement in heavy breathing.

In addition to that positive influence of the activity of immune system was found.

All the above mentioned results was detected after a single procedure of blood irradiation, and repeating treatments made results of therapy stronger.

L.V. Gasparyan (2000) reported about the experience of applying intravenous blue light blood irradiation for the therapy of different conditions, including hearing loss,

atherosclerosis, and chronic inflammations of prostate gland. The results of the therapy are very encouraging.

Blue light blood irradiation in general vas a better therapy tool then red laser intravenous blood irradiation in the given dosage and protocol.

As continuation of studies of effects of blue LED light irradiation effects on blood L.V. Gasparyan et al. (2003) examined effects of LED light irradiation of different wavelengths on blood platelets in vitro in animal experiments.

It was reported, that blue and red light can significantly decrease aggregation activity of blood platelets. It was proposed, that increasing levels of NO can be results of light irradiation of blue and red band.

A.Makela (2004) discussed the biochemical background of positive influence of blue light in case of diabetes mellitus and some other

conditions. She examined several molecules which can act as primary photoacceptors for blue light and some other molecules which can participate in blue light action.

Blue light blood irradiation therapy shows promising results in the treatment of different pathologies.

In the near future the blue light blood irradiation will be used wider, than today, because equipment for non-invasive

transcutaneous blue light blood irradiation is now available.

--------------------
Bob

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sparkle7
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Yes, I know I read this... that's why I was surprised on the other findings about blue light & macular degeneration!

It seems that the blood responds differently to the blue light than the eyes!

This is why we need to use a bit of caution about healing with light. I haven't seen any studies saying that infrared is dangerous... it's usually the opposite - it's protective of cells.

If you overdo it there may be a risk of "singlet oxygen" (I saw this in an article but I'm not exactly sure what this is). Seems like something to do with free radicals. That's why it may be good to take some extra anti-oxidants.

There just needs to be more studies so we can learn more.

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lymie_in_md
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Sparkle, I read somewhere 20 minutes a week on the naval would irradiate all blood inside the body just like the IV approach. I'm still trying to find the reference.

--------------------
Bob

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sparkle7
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Yes. I saw that, too, about the belly button. There's a major artery there, I think.

I do the wrists, also.

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herxuk
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Sparkle.

I don't know what you mean by "" Singlet Oxygen ""

But we make free Radicals all the time, even from food I believe. I know exercise, running, body building can produce them ( Lactic Acid ) as I have read about this, in body building.

Bb toxins produces them, we all know that. So what would be any different, if the Free Radicals are produced by the Lt wrks than by any other method that we choose to use. ?

I think thats why they claim, less food and calories, keeps you younger, ( Not Malnutrition ) less free radicals.
They did these studies on over fed mice I believe.

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lymie_in_md
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Somethings like non-invasive blood irradiation sounds really good and logical. But, how much disinfection can red, blue or UV light do if the speed of blood is moving so fast it is less then the blink of an eye? I'm guessing not much can be done to any bacteria.

http://www.naturalawakenings.com/natural_health/natural_health_tips_23.htm

``PENETRATING THROUGH THE BLOOD STREAM``

You can even get light into the blood stream. One of the best ways is through your belly button, because the aorta artery is behind the belly button. So if you insert the light there for 20 minutes, every drop of blood in the body will pass in front of the light, increasing the activity of your white cells, red cells, B-cells and T-cells, so you can boost your whole immune system."

--------------------
Bob

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herxuk
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Great read, Thank you. Shame its not been put on LT wrks thread.
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sparkle7
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re: blue light... I'm not trying to find negatives about the light therapy.

I just want to know all sides & possible dangers so we can take precautions.

I'm all for using the light to get well! I'll post the link on the LW thread.

-----

PS - re: But, how much disinfection can red, blue or UV light do if the speed of blood is moving so fast it is less then the blink of an eye? I'm guessing not much can be done to any bacteria.

Light moves at the speed of light! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light

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herxuk
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Sparkle.

Did you read my message on this second thread. ?
What do you think to what I said. I know your not wanting to worry us. Your not worrying me at all, I shall go ahead, I think I have more to gain than lose.

There are more reasons I want to try this, than Bb.

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herxuk
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Sorry, I meant 1st thread.
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sparkle7
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You mean about the free radicals? Yes... It's not a big thing. I just like to look at the issue from all angles. There are things we can do to help with this free radical issue.

I hate when I've been doing something that I thought was healthy & then, I find out years later that it's not as good as I thought (like eating alot of soy products instead of meat - as one example).

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lymie_in_md
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For those interested in a mold, bacteria and virus free environment check out the following link about uv light:
http://www.allergyconsumerreview.com/mold-prevention-uv.html

--------------------
Bob

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Marnie
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Or this one:

http://respiratory-supplies.medical-supplies-equipment-company.com/PPF/page_ID/71/article.asp

And the original "universal remedy" was:

Mg oxide, tannic acid and then activated charcoal.

The pancreas is a small lumpy gland with a head and a tail with the head pointed to your right. The pancreas would fit easily in the palm of your hand, as it weighs only about 85 grams.

It is located on the back wall of the abdominal cavity at the level of your belly button.

It lies transversely across that wall and consists of two glands in one.

Tannic acid (alone) is hard on the pancreas though.

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