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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » BioFilm........is this the key????? A major piece to the puzzle????

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Author Topic: BioFilm........is this the key????? A major piece to the puzzle????
Jellybelly
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I just saw "Under Our Skin" yesterday and it was FANTASTIC!!!! Absoultely fantastic, really well done. A little long for the general public, but other than that, FANTASTIC!!!! Can I say it again, FANTASTIC!!!!!

I was really excited about what was said at the very end when a Dr. MacDonald told of his recent discovery. I see that it has been talked about some since May. Dr. MacDonald found a cluster of spirochetes and they were incased in Biofilm, which is a gel like coating. Biofilm protects the pathogens from our immune system AND antimicrobials, or antibiotics. This biofilm makes killing these pathogens EXTREMELY difficult.

My mind started racing, and immediately I started thinking about my own personal experience and how I have gone from looking like an anorexic with cancer after to chemo, to looking healthy, and feeling at about 85-90% normal, prior to EBV raising it's ugly head, but that is a whole other ball of wax.

I have always been baffled as to how I have made such a recovery with such microscopic amounts of ABX. I have discussed this many times right here and have had a few heated discussions with a few who insist that these minut doses of ABX could have gotten me well. What the heck was different about methen?.

The difference in me, and about 99% of you is that I used heparin for about 2 years and took ABX during much of that time in those micro doses. I would herx horrifically on 2-10 mgs of Minocycline. After each 4-6 week, I would be significantly better.

I have suspected for a long time that it had to do with the heparin somehow but was not sure. I have discussed this many times here and have tried to get people to take a closer look at heparin. My thoughts were that the heparin was breaking down the fibrin which also coats these little bugs real nice.

But then I learned about biofilm yesterday. When I got home from the screening I jumped on my computer and did some research. I wanted to know right away if heparin had any effect on biofilm.......and this is what I found.

First I searched under biofilm and lyme, to find out what biofilm was. This was the very first thing I came accross. web page

Biofilm is effected by digesitve enzymes which I have encouraged for years if you are afraid of heparin!!

Then I did a search on lyme, biofilm and heparin. I found this from someone who had just seen MacDonald speak: web page

And this, where it states that "heparin markedly reduces biofilm by 87%"!!!!! web page

I am so exceited about this. This is really big in my opinion. We have people scarfing down massive quantities of ABX and still not getting well or getting well at a snails pace. Many won't look at heparin for their fear of bleeding to death. But the MASSIVE quantities of ABX are far more dangerous for the majority than the microscopic amounts of heparin a few of us have been given and have made significant progress on.

This is big, BIG news. I can feel it!!!!

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randibear
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is that i feel worse on wobenzyme and digestive enzymes?

also, what is heparin? isn't that a blood thinner?

wonder how i can convince my llmd to give me some? or is it a last resort treatment?

do llmd's consider it unconventional?

sorry lots of questions but there are some of us who do not take antibiotics well.

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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ByronSBell 2007
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heprin is almost essential to getting well

also cyst busters, one man did rocheprin IV everyday for 9 years straight without taking a cyst buster... he was still sick until my llmd put him on flagyl and tini

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Vermont_Lymie
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Is biofilm the same as fibrin? Do you think systemic enzymes like bolouke would be as useful as heparin?
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NanaDubo
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Woiuld serrapeptase do the same thing?
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Jellybelly
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Randibear, I don't think any of us take ABX well, it may be easier for some, but bottom line is ABX are Anti "Life". True they are are must when facing a life threatening infection which Lyme is, but the goal should be to use them sparingly I would think.

Heparin is used by several LLMDs out there and it is definetly not a last resort. I think with this news, it should the FIRST line of defense, then the ABX. I believe that our own immune system may be able to conquer much IF the biofilm is not there. Then ABX in the smallest doses absolutely needed to get the job done. There is no reason to get out a neuclear bomb when a bb gun will do the job.

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soonermom
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My LLMD offered me heparin because he said that most lyme patients have shown benefit from it although he said because of coagulation issues.

I had testing for clotting issues and it was all normal so I declined.

It comes in an injectable form (SQ) and I knew a lady that used to get it at a compounding pharmacy in a troche (sub-lingual) form.

Does anyone do this? I would be a lot more open to it given all this biofilm information. I watched that on Under our Skin also.

I did just order some boluoke off of the internet to try as I wait for my next appointment. I wonder how it compares to the heparin.

--------------------
3/08 CDC Positive
IgM 18++ 23-25IND 31++++ 34++ 39+ 41+++ 58+ 83-93+

CDC Negative
IgG 31IND 39IND 41+++ 58+ 66+

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Jellybelly
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I have used both enzymes and heparin, and in my personal opinion, heparin does several things that enzymes do not. I think enzymes are the next best thing, but if given the choice, I would choose the heparin and I have been given the choice. Even though I do not have excessive fibrin right now, I am still taking heparin for all of the other added benefits.

Now with this information on biofilm, it is another benefit we didn't know about before.

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aiden424
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I was on heparin for 3 years and never noticed any difference. I'm now taking Bolouke instead and can hardly handle it. I get very ill from the Bolouke.

Kathy

--------------------
You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have.

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Keebler
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-

Q: Is biofilm the same as fibrin?

A: Not as I understand it at this point.

Biofilm is the protective layer a germ can make around itself.

Fibrin is something else - in the blood. Too much is harmful as it sort of clogs up things in the bloodstream.

Hopefully, someone else will have a better answer.


---

Allicin can also help break down biofilm.


one of many articles on the subject:


http://tinyurl.com/5yohjc

Journal of Applied Microbiology
Volume 95 Issue 4, Pages 709 - 711
Published Online: 15 Aug 2003

Journal compilation 2008 The Society for Applied Microbiology


In vitro activity of allicin against Staphylococcus epidermidis and influence of subinhibitory concentrations on biofilm formation


C. Prez-Giraldo , G. Cruz-Villaln , R. Snchez-Silos , R. Martnez-Rubio , M.T. Blanco and A.C. Gmez-Garca

Department of Microbiology, Faculty of Medicine, University of Extremadura, Badajoz, Spain


Aims: The aim of this study is to determine the in vitro activity of allicin against Staphylococcus epidermidis and to evaluate the influence of allicin on biofilm formation.


Methods and Results: In vitro activity of allicin (diallyl thiosulphinate) against 38 strains of S. epidermidis was investigated.


The activity of allicin was similar against S. epidermidis methicillin susceptible and methicillin resistant strains [minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC)90 = 8 mg l_1]. In general, subinhibitory concentrations (sub-MIC) of allicin diminished biofilm formation in the five strains analysed.


Conclusion: The results confirm the antibacterial effect of allicin. Sub-MICs of allicin also diminished the biofilm formations by S. epidermidis.


-

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Jellybelly
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Vermont, I don't think they are the same. Fibrin is actually made up of little fibers and the other is more like a gel.

Nana, serrapeptase is mentioned I believe, but it doesn not work exactly the same as heparin.

Soonermom, I have never had even one injection of heparin. I have and still do take it in a nasal spray, made up by a compounding pharmacy.

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randibear
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so if enzymes are the next best thing, what brand and what dosage would work?

i have wobenzyme and digestive enzymes.

at this point, i'm willing to try anything?

also i wonder if you suggest it to a llmd, if he would be willing to try it?

yep, a nuclear bomb is what the doc gave me -- levaquin, flagyl and biaxin, all at once...

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do not look back when the only course is forward

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NanaDubo
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If you're going to try heparin do get it from a compounding pharmacy. I just read about a lot of recalls for heparin that came from China.

The article I read said it shouldn't be taken with garlic, ginko, st. john's wart and aspirin to name a few.

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soonermom
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Nasal Spray sounds a LOT better than a SQ injection.

About how much is one bottle an how long does it last?

--------------------
3/08 CDC Positive
IgM 18++ 23-25IND 31++++ 34++ 39+ 41+++ 58+ 83-93+

CDC Negative
IgG 31IND 39IND 41+++ 58+ 66+

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SandiB
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A good substitute for Heparin is Nattokinase, a natural product that prevents clotting.
"Nattokinase is a potent fibrinolytic (anti-clotting) enzyme complex extracted and highly purified from a traditional Japanese food called Natto. Natto is a fermented cheese-like food that has been used in Japanese culture for more than 1000 years for its popular taste, and as a folk remedy for heart and vascular diseases. Research has shown that Nattokinase supports the body in breaking up and dissolving the unhealthy coagulation of blood. In fact, it has been shown to have four times greater fibrinolytic activity than plasmin."
Also, the discovery of biofilms is not new, Dr. Lida Mattman was doing research on biofilms and presenting slide presentation on them back in the late '90's. Dr. Mattman was nominated for the nobel prize for her work on cell wall deficient (Stealth Pathogens). Her book " Cell Wall Deficient Forms" can be ordered on Amazon.com.

SandiB

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Angelica
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Allergy Research makes at least two blood thinners. Would natural blood thinners work as well?
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randibear
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ok, so how much would you take?

--------------------
do not look back when the only course is forward

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Lymeorsomething
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Does plain aspirin serve any purpose here?

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"Whatever can go wrong will go wrong."

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Keebler
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-


Mostly with children, but also in adults, aspirin with infection/fever can cause Reyes syndrome and that can be very serious.


It also is very hard on the lining of the stomach and can literally eat a whole in it.


-

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ByronSBell 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymeorsomething:
Does plain aspirin serve any purpose here?

No
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ByronSBell 2007
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I stated this in another thread but I have been on

atleast 4cc's a day of heprin sometimes 6cc's along with bouluke, and CalciClear AM &PM

Afte 2 months of being on these three things, my biofilm went down about 90%, by now I am sure it is gone.


Now not just the ABx are fighting my infections better but my immune system has rejoined the battle because it can now see and get to the bugs.


These supplements also help get the bartonella out of the red blood cells, my bartonella has improved by 70% in 2 months

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Parisa
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Byron,

How are you measuring your biofilm?

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Jill E.
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Byron,

How did Dr. R. check your biofilm levels? I know several of her patients, and know there's lots of talk and protocols for biofilm (I thought some patients were using EDTA) but never heard of a way to check the levels. How do you know yours went down by a specific amount?

Thanks,
Jill

--------------------
If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me?

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Lymetoo
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Maybe that's why I got well too. I took at least 3 yrs of heparin, followed by 2-3 yrs of boluoke.

Right now, I'm not taking any of the above.

I agree... biofilms are not new... but the idea has just not been applied by more than a few LLMD's.

Byron is correct.. aspirin is not going to do the same thing as heparin. It's the fibrin you are going after, not thick blood.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Jellybelly
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How much heparin you would take would depend on your doctor, but I believe Hemex has pretty much set the standard for low dose heparin that most docs follow.

I know Heparin and aspirin work on entirely different issues when talking about fibrin and clotting. I don't knnow for a certainty whether the same rules apply for biofilm.

And Byron, yes please tell more about having your biofilm levels tested.

Biofilm is not a new finding in general, it does seem to be very new in regards to us in that at it has been actually seen coating spirochetes. Biofilm can be a real problem when treating some strains of staph. Staph killed my father, and I wonder if heparin was considered. Oh, I don't even like to think about the "what ifs".

Tutu, yes, I believe that is why we are doing so well. Do you really know that many people who are doing as well as you???? I don't, I can't think of but a couple and it took massive amounts of ABX.

From what I understand, the traffic reporter in my area, and her name is slipping my mind, I see her all the time. I think I heard her say she is still in a lot of pain.......I'm not. I have very, very little pain anymore. Vast majority of neuro problems are gone as well as most stuff.

I think the tide is going to change. I am so excited. Watching that movie yesterday, all I could do was think of my kids who have yet to treat, and I feel so good about the course of treatment I see in the future. This is relatively easy!!!!! I actually really feel hopeful about their future!

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Al
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Dr. MacDonald ordered 10 brains from a brain bank at Harvard, looking for Borrelia he discovered a monster; In 7 of those brains he tracked a DNA sequence apparently part human, part Spirochete, a deadly ungodly hybrid combining Borrelia and us. The proteins causing illness are no longer manufactured by B burgdorferi spirochetes but by the genes of the patients themselves.
The DNA of the spirochete combined with the human chromosome, "Once it's your own DNA and your churning it out yourself, your cooked"

Cure Unknowen, P. 348

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Jellybelly
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The DNA of various pathogens becoming part of our own DNA is quite common. It is rather freaky sounding but, it happens to everyone. That doesn't mean it's without consequence, but that is just the way it is. I truly believe they will eventually find bacteria and viruses to be at the core of just about everything that ails mankind.

The 10 brains he used were brains of Alzheimer's patients, not just the average Joe off the street.

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ByronSBell 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by Parisa:
Byron,

How are you measuring your biofilm?

My LLMD has taught me how to read the Fry Labs smear to tell how much the biofilm has improved.
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gemofnj
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Al,

Can you explain that a little more basic. I really want to understand, but a little too tehcnical.

What does all this mean? Those that have lyme will ultimately get Alzheimers???? [Eek!]

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0624sm
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JB, My husband, his aunt, and I saw the screening of "Under Our Skin" in Arlington on Saturday, August 23.

I too appreciated Dr. MacDonald's comments on biofilm.

I have my husband taking Nattokinase, Serrapeptase, Lumbrokinase (Boluoke), and a couple of broad-spectrum digestive enzyme products.

Between those enzymes and several supplements that incidentally have blood thinning properties, I was feeling a little "out there," wondering if it was too risky.

Thankfully, there was an unplanned "test" a couple of weeks ago when my husband got a deep, gouging cut on his left calf.

He didn't bleed any longer or stronger than anyone else would have bled from such an injury.

Plus, last week, we got a "stamp of approval" on the enzyme regimen from one of his Lyme co-treating doctors.

Joyce/cypriane

--------------------
Dallas caregiver for husband Steve who has Bb, Cpn, Mpn, EBV, CMV, other Herpes family viruses

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micul
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quote:
My LLMD has taught me how to read the Fry Labs smear to tell how much the biofilm has improved.

That's impossible...no one can tell how extensive the biofilm problem is systemically by looking at a blood smear, which by the way is only showing 1 field of view from a single of drop of blood that contains approx 1000 fields of view on it.

Even if you were able to see the entire drop of blood, there is no chance that any kind of reliable systemic biofilm Dx could be interpreted from such a very small teency weency amount of blood.

At the very most you could say that I had one drop of blood that looked better, but there are a lot of variables to play with like if it is venous or peripheral blood; what area of the body was it taken from; how many blood draws did you take per week, and so on.

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CD57
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bump
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h8lyme
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I'm so hopeful.
So tired of being tired.

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antsettler
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metronidazole inhibit the plaquelet activation by lps of bacteries, prevent the rise of blood viscosity and the use of fibrin by biofilm
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wrotek
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This is interesting. according to different sources, biofilm is a polysaccharide (exopolysaccharide, polysugar). What can dissolve polysugars ?
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wrotek
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I think we need organic chemist here

http://tinyurl.com/5j4ddb

[ 09. September 2008, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: wrotek ]

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wrotek
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Look at the page 749 of the book i cited above, "Bioencapsulation of Living Cells by Entrapment in Polysaccharide Gels

Gel is the Dr Alan Mcdonalds description of what he has seen under microscope looking at Borrelia cultures

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daisys
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I've been taking Virastop, for EBV, long before getting dxed with lyme disease. It has

Nattokinase NSK-SD 400FU
Serratopeptdase 25,000SPU

among other enzymes. I started taking them twice a day when I found out my LLMD wanted me to continue to take them for lyme treatment.

I have no idea if that amount is enough or if one is plenty. I've never seen those measurement initials before.

The book, as far as I can find (and I've read it thru only once so far) doesn't cover this. I no longer seem to have symptoms of EBV, so now I'm fighting lyme, and babs.

Does anyone know how much natto is needed?

I almost forgot to say: Great thread! [Smile]

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ByronSBell 2007
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quote:
Originally posted by micul:
quote:
My LLMD has taught me how to read the Fry Labs smear to tell how much the biofilm has improved.

That's impossible...no one can tell how extensive the biofilm problem is systemically by looking at a blood smear, which by the way is only showing 1 field of view from a single of drop of blood that contains approx 1000 fields of view on it.

Even if you were able to see the entire drop of blood, there is no chance that any kind of reliable systemic biofilm Dx could be interpreted from such a very small teency weency amount of blood.

At the very most you could say that I had one drop of blood that looked better, but there are a lot of variables to play with like if it is venous or peripheral blood; what area of the body was it taken from; how many blood draws did you take per week, and so on.

Only you think it is impossible.

Do you realize that the heart acts as a large pump/mixer. Our hearts can pump anywhere from 5-8 gallons of blood a minute. Each drop of blood is going to look like another drop of blood.

If you take a mixer and put some bananas, stawberries, honey, ect. ect. and say we mix it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at high speed.... then take one drop out of it. You will find in that drop a little bit of everything you put in there in the first place.

Just because you don't know how to properly read a Fry Labs smear, doesn't mean someone else can. My llmd is good friends with Dr. Fry and they have worked together.

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ByronSBell 2007
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It's also not a tiny drop of blood, it is 4 large vials
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bejoy
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I find this to be an extremely valuable conversation. The immune system knows what to do with a pathogen, if the T cells can find it.

I don't understand all the chemistry, but it seems that breaking down fibrin, biofilm, cyst coating is one very essential key.

I don't have experience with heparin or nattokinase, although I think they sound like excellent choices.

I use Bioset Protease Plus enzymes from Enzymes Inc. These have to be ordered by a health professional. I think this is a reputable company with quality products. This particular product is hypoallergenic.

I believe that these enzymes have made a big difference in my wellness. I take two at night on an empty stomach with a glass of water.

I also think that the bee venom ointment I use, called Venex, also supports this process because of the mellitin it contains.

I also pulsed Flagyl (metronidazole) for about six weeks.

This protocol combined with other products got me symptom free in about nine months (after at least 20 yrs.) I had a three week reoccurance of neuro symptoms six months later, and am symptom free again.

I also credit my wellness to a Bicillin substitute, and homeopathics from Deseret Biologicals.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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micul
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quote:
Just because you don't know how to properly read a Fry Labs smear, doesn't mean someone else can. My llmd is good friends with Dr. Fry and they have worked together.
That's really pretty funny because even Dr F himself will not Dx the sevrerity of systemic biofilms based on a few blood smears. So now your saying that you are looking at an entire 4 vials of blood? Do you know how mnay smears that would be? Millions!

Quote"You will find in that drop a little bit of everything you put in there in the first place."Not unless you look at it all very closely. There could be all sorts of pathogens in there that would be extremely difficult to find based on the dilution of the fluid.

And it does matter very much that you look at the whole slide and not just one field of view in order to get a bigger picture. There could be one single babesia on a slide that would go undetected according to your reasoning.

So what if it gets circulated...that's not the same thing as mixing in a blender by far. There are many areas of the body in tissue and organs that are only fed by very small caplillaries which are so small that only a single cell can pass through at a time. A person can have extensive biofilms in many parts of the body that won't even show up for months after an effective ant-biofilm protocol has been started. That would also include hyper-coag therapy.

This is why exercise and saunas are sooo important IMO in helping to reverse the problem. The other big problem for most people is that they will continue to dump large doses of magnesium into their systems on a daily basis that will keep the biofilms protected.

It's the same principal as when trying to combat candida.....if you continue to eat the kinds of foods that caused the problem in the first place, then all the Diflucan or Sporanox in the world will not get rid of the yeast. It will return as soon as therapy is stopped. This idea by some that feeding them mag is necessary in order to make them easier targets for abx is laughable.

It sounds like you are on your way to resolving your biofilm hyper-coag problem, but to say that you are 90% biofilm free from a few blood smears is not possible as I said before. My guess is that blood was drawn from your pic line, which would show the best possible results because thats where all the drugs and Heparin go in and out of. Next time take a drop of blood from one of your toes with a pin prick and see how that looks....that would give you a much better idea of a systemic condition. But still, it would not be conclusive.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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ByronSBell 2007
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Fry Labs does look very closely at each blood sample and smear. They go searching for infections instead of just taking a random picture of the blood. They have a good reputation.

Yes there are many parts of the body that are fed with very small capilaries I agree, but look up how many times the body cycles every drop of blood a day, you'll be amazed.

Yes excercise and movement is good for flow. But taking magnesium is essential to getting well. If you do not take magnesium, your muscles will become harder and stiffer. This will reduce blood flow or in severe cases even cut it off. It will also make places for the infections to hide easier. Look up trigger points. The spirochete has also shown to feed on magnesium and when it feeds, it is in its most unprotective form allowing the ABx and immune to hit them.

Yes the blood was drawn from my picc line but the test was run 24hrs away from heprin or any supplements. The line is also flushed twice and then the first vials of blood drawn are thrown away. Half of my fry labs test were drawn from my vein anyway.

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KS
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I'm genuinely interested as well as to how to evaluate biofilm with these types of smears.

I began my career as a microbiologist and made a living spennding countless hours looking through microscopes (if only I had been a Bb researcher). My point being, I'm not sure how one would do this, particularly without a special staining technique or at that magnification. Honestly, I'm game for learning something new!!

Thanks, Kristin

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nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by daisys:
Nattokinase NSK-SD 400FU
Serratopeptdase 25,000SPU

I have no idea if that amount is enough or if one is plenty. I've never seen those measurement initials before.

Daisy,

FU = Fibrinolytic Units.

So you are taking enough nattokinase to lyse (destroy)a certain amount of fibrin. Hard to say what amount is needed as it is hard to know how much you are producing and whether it is required or not. What is very important is to know whether you are lysing enough fibrin on your own or not.

Factor V Leiden is a genetic defect which means you can't lyse enough of the fibrin you are producing (in response to inflammation/infection or injury for eg).

Some people with this defect take nattokinase (btwn 1000 FU to 2000 FU/day is usual, but if you have an "event" that might trigger more clotting you can take more).

Others take heparin.

If one has a chronic infection, one tends to have thick blood (too much fibrin) and bacteria can hide in fibrin deposits (and biofilm-forming bacteria can use fibrin to build their safe hide-aways).

Nelly

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daisys
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Thank you, Nelly. I appreciate the explanation.

My LLMD looked at the ingredients and gave it the go ahead, but didn't specify how much to take.

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D Bergy
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I am going to do an experiment using Cumanda and Grapefruit Seed extract.

I know at some point she will stop herxing on the Cumanda. When she does, I am then going to add the GSE and see if she starts Herxing again.

If she does it would be a good indication that it is breaking down the biofilm.

She has very reliable reaction to all treatments so I think I could learn something if any change is noticed.

D Bergy

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Lauralyme
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Bumping up this very interesting thread

--------------------
Fall down seven times, get up eight
~Japanese proverb

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lou
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The discovery that a lot of chronic diseases might involve biofilm is rather new and what to do about it is still being actively researched. So, once again, we are venturing into unknown territory.

I suspect that a biofilm characteristics depends on what germs are involved and this might be part of the reason why we react so differently to meds and doses. Below I am pasting a research article about one kind of biofilm. You will notice that the components change their behavior because of their interaction, and that the biofilm community is more stable than the individual elements alone would be. This apparently is what gives it strength and staying power. Sorry that the color illustrations cannot be included.

------------------------------------------------

Research Highlight

Nature Reviews Microbiology 5, 168-169 (March 2007) | doi:10.1038/nrmicro1626

Biofilms: How does your biofilm grow?

Susan Jones


Confocal scanning laser microscope micrographs are shown of mixed biofilms containing Acinetobacter sp. C6 (red) and ancestral Pseudomonas putida (green) (a), and Acinetobacter sp. C6 (red) and a rough variant of P. putida (green) (b). Figure reproduced from Nature 445, 533-536 (2007).

Biofilm communities are not simply surface-adherent mixtures of bacterial species, rather they are dynamic and structurally complex systems. As biofilms might be the default mode of bacterial life, understanding how they assemble, function and evolve is fundamentally important. Now, publishing in Nature, Paul Rainey, Sren Molin and colleagues have used a deceptively simple approach to reveal how bacterial species can interact and evolve to form a stable biofilm.

When Acinetobacter sp. (strain C6) is grown with benzyl alcohol as a sole carbon source it secretes benzoate. Pseudomonas putida (strain KT2440) cannot grow on benzyl alcohol, but it can catabolize benzoate. So P. putida can thrive when benzyl alcohol is the only carbon source supplied, but only if Acinetobacter is also present. Rainey and colleagues exploited this simple metabolic partnership to examine biofilm development.

Initial experiments revealed that when these species were grown together on a surface, they were able to utilize a drastically reduced concentration of benzyl alcohol compared with that required when co-cultured in liquid suspension. This is because local interactions -- particularly the development of chemical gradients -- are possible when bacteria grow in a spatially structured environment such as the glass surface used in this study. In well-mixed liquid cultures, however, neighbours constantly change and opportunites for local interactions are reduced.

Microscopic inspection revealed that Acinetobacter colonies (see figure, panel a) were initially surrounded by groups of P. putida colonies. Within 5 days a more intimate association developed, with a mantle of P. putida coating Acinetobacter colonies (see figure, panel b). Growing samples from these biofilms on agar plates revealed that they all contained a stable rough-colony variant of the P. putida strain (the wild-type strain is smooth).

The genetic basis of this switch was pinned down to mutations in a gene encoding a key lipopolysaccharide biosynthetic enzyme. The rough variant only evolved when the ancestral P. putida strain was grown on a surface in the presence of Acinetobacter. After reinoculation of biofilm chambers with the rough variant of P. putida and Acinetobacter the intimately associated biofilm, which took five days to form previously, formed in just one day, showing that the evolutionary adaptation promoted biofim formation. Further experiments confirmed that the evolved rough variant was fitter than the ancestral wild-type strain, but only when it was grown in a biofilm with Acinetobacter.

These experiments beautifully clarify the first steps in the formation of a mixed-species biofilm. Because the evolution of the rough variant only took place in a mixed culture and in a spatially structured environment, this research shows that spatial structure is intrinsically linked to the evolution of new functions in biofilm communities.

ORIGINAL RESEARCH PAPER

1.

Hansen, S. K., Rainey, P. B., Haagensen, J. A. J. & Molin, S. Evolution of species interactions in a biofilm community. Nature 445, 533-536 (2007)

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amkdiaries
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Is this the same amount of heparin found in IV flushes? The amount is 100 units/ml which I take twice a day but I have noticed no difference?
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lymie_in_md
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Biofilms aren't just used by pathogenic bacteria, but non-pathogenic bacteria as well.

link: http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:10466665/pmid/cit

quote:
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 Aug 23;102:11993-8 16040799 (P,S,E,B) Cited:2 Toward a live microbial microbicide for HIV: commensal bacteria secreting an HIV fusion inhibitor peptide.

[My paper] Srinivas Rao, Stella Hu, Louise McHugh, Kira Lueders, Ken Henry, Qi Zhao, Richard A Fekete, Sudeshna Kar, Sankar Adhya, Dean H Hamer
Laboratory of Viral Diseases, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA.
Most HIV transmission occurs on the mucosal surfaces of the gastrointestinal and cervicovaginal tracts, both of which are normally coated by a biofilm of nonpathogenic commensal bacteria. We propose to genetically engineer such naturally occurring bacteria to protect against HIV infection by secreting antiviral peptides. Here we describe the development and characterization of Nissle 1917, a highly colonizing probiotic strain of Escherichia coli, secreting HIV-gp41-hemolysin A hybrid peptides that block HIV fusion and entry into target cells. By using an appropriate combination of cis- and transacting secretory and regulatory signals, micromolar secretion levels of the anti-HIV peptides were achieved. The genetically engineered Nissle 1917 were capable of colonizing mice for periods of weeks to months, predominantly in the colon and cecum, with lower concentrations of bacteria present in the rectum, vagina, and small intestine. Histological and immunocytochemical examination of the colon revealed bacterial growth and peptide secretion throughout the luminal mucosa and in association with epithelial surfaces. The use of genetically engineered live microbes as anti-HIV microbicides has important potential advantages in economy, efficacy, and durability.
Mesh-terms: Animals; Anti-HIV Agents :: metabolism; Anti-HIV Agents :: pharmacology; Cecum :: microbiology; Colon :: microbiology; Comparative Study; Escherichia coli :: genetics; Escherichia coli :: metabolism; Female; Genetic Engineering :: methods; HIV :: drug effects; HIV :: metabolism; HIV Envelope Protein gp41 :: metabolism; HIV Infections :: prevention & control; Hemolysins :: metabolism; Humans; Intestinal Mucosa :: microbiology; Mice; Models, Biological; Peptides :: pharmacology; Peptides :: secretion; Vagina :: microbiology;



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Bob

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lou
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This is a good point. So how do we disrupt bad biofilms without inhibiting good ones? This seems very complicated to me.

Wrotek, please edit your post to make that long url into a tiny url, so that the page does not go wide and people can read it without scrolling. Thanks.

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lymie_in_md
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Lou, I don't think they are constructed with the same materials, but this is even newer science then biofilm from pathogenic bacteria.

If we could increase the strength of positive biofilm it might give rise to super probiotics. Where our good friends are better protected in our bodies especially if we're taking ABX.

--------------------
Bob

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Mo
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huh. this is really interesting. i got well and never used heparin or any other product to thin blood, but did do allot of diet/alternative treatments that would have the same effect.

btw, how many llmd's are now using fry (officially)?
..for either treatment progress or documentation of the organisms?

what are the other conditions that heparin is used to treat?

mo

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