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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » (Biofilm) Who Is Taking Enzymes with ABX ?

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Author Topic: (Biofilm) Who Is Taking Enzymes with ABX ?
Annxyz
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After reading about the success of oil of oregano and monolaurin in killing staph bacteria with biofilm, I am wondering who else has experience to share on their attempts to dissolve the biofilm?

Does anyone feel adding enzymes is helping them progress ?

I am taking enzymes ( digestive ) and oil of oregano and GSE drops . The oregano definitely keeps yeast away , and I do notice lots of " tingles " when I take the enzymes .
Let me know if you have any feedback .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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0624sm
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I'm giving my husband serrapeptase, nattokinase, and lumbrokinase between meals to break down biofilm. How can we ever evaluate how well they are working? One good sign is that when he started the lumbrokinase, his hands and nether regions warmed up.

So it's a reasoned choice, and we hope these enzymes are doing their job and exposing Borrelia and other pathogens for the kill.

Joyce/cypriane

--------------------
Dallas caregiver for husband Steve who has Bb, Cpn, Mpn, EBV, CMV, other Herpes family viruses

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psano2
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This is an interesting question, which I've been wondering about myself. I'm thinking of asking my LLMD about starting nattokinase next time I see him.
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bejoy
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I take professional strength proteolytic enzymes from Enzymes inc. called protease plus.

I take them at bed time on an empty stomach. I believe they do they help. In fact somehow they also seem to help me with systemic yeast.

I also take digestive enzymes with food. If you have food in your stomach, I understand the enzymes don't get into the bloodstream. They just deal with the food.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Cass A
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I'm currently taking Rechts Regulat as well as Mepron and Zith. I recently changed to this after many months taking lumbrokinase.

No definitive report yet.

Best,

Cass A

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Annxyz
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I definitely feel they are potentiating the meds I am taking . I also notice i feel less inflammation in my back and have smoother movement and am far LESS stiff .

The meds ( bactrim ) seem as though I raised the dosage , just as when I take a tiny bit of
glyconutrients with the ABX .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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cottonbrain
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I take serrapeptase in the a.m.s. I didn't notice anything different until i read the post above -- yes, my hands have been tingling a lot lately.

honestly, i can't judge how effective they are, but i know of no ill effects except for an emaciated look to my wallet.

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EyeBob
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bump

This could be important stuff.

bt

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psano2
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annyx and cottonbrain, you both mention feeling tingling sensations in your hands. do you feel this is a positive thing, and not a peripheral neuropathy?

what do you think the tingling is due to?

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cottonbrain
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I really thought the tingling was just another lyme symptom popping up-- or thyroid going hypo again.

If it means my veins are unclogging, then it's definitely a good thing.

Sorry, at this point it's really speculation on my part--but i'll continue to take the serrapeptase. I've only been taking it a couple of months.

I take a kind called Veggie Caps, i think.

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Annxyz
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I am also having a lot of vigorous twitching sensations under the skin, which usually happens when I starta new ABX or herb that kills bacteria . That definitely makes me think that the enzymes are potentiating the ABX . I think they increase penetration , and I HOPE (!) they
EAT biofilm.

I am going to stick with the enzymes one more year , then go off ABX and try rife.

I would like to hear others' feedback with enzymes. I wonder if lyme docs advise them .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Boomerang
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Bumping up for more responses on enzymes.
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Annxyz
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I am not sure where I read it , but did find an article stating that NAC helped dissolve biofilm.

This is CONJECTURE , but the tingling causes me to question the possibility of the enzymes cleaning the arteries or blood vessels . I know that enzymes DEFINITELY " eat " inflammation ,
and atherosclerosis is thought to be an inflammatory condition.
Because my range of motion is so much better , and the enzymes do potentiate the penetration of the meds ( and break down fibrin ) I will stay on them .

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Nutmeg
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My LLND has me on Boluoke, lactoferrin, Veggiezyme (plant enzymes), and NAC for biofilm. She mentioned maybe having me switch from boluoke to serrapeptase at some point to keep the biofilm guessing.

She also said garlic (I take AlliUltra liquid--bleah!) interferes with biofilm quorum sensing.

Now maybe I'll add some vanilla to my glass to improve the flavor and effectiveness!

Nutmeg

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aiden424
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I'm taking Bolouke and Lauricidin with antibiotics. I feel so crappy all the time it's hard to tell if it's working or not.

I can only take really small amounts of both the Bolouke and Lauricidin or the herxing knocks me on my butt.

Kathy

--------------------
You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have.

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Annxyz
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I suspect the enzymes REALLY do something if they are increasing the intensity of the die off
of the organism for so many .

Maybe we will make more progress this way . I will keep trying .

Thanks for sharing your experiences . Maybe we will find a way to save ourselves.

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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canbravelyme
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My protein is depressed, and there seems to be no explanation for this to date.

I now think that my physical self has decreased the amount of protein I am absorbing, to lesser the amount of protein entering my brain, hence lessening the frequency and severity of neurological symptoms I experience.

When I take a digestive enzyme with a meal, I become very ill with neurological symptoms (neuropathic pain, on and off sweating, seizure, +). I take it that this is a herx? It's within hours.

Answer: no enzymes, and let my healing progress more gently?

Enzymes, and have a terrible quality of life?

I think I should divide the dose in 4 and start there.

Best wishes,

--------------------
For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician.

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bystander
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I posted a thread asking this but got no answers...

Does anyone have any articles that address treatments for eradicating biofilm, in Lyme specifically?

Our doc is curious, which is a good thing, but I have nothing but lymenet threads.

Thanks.

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cottonbrain
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nutmeg, you wrote:
"My LLND has me on Boluoke, lactoferrin, Veggiezyme (plant enzymes), and NAC for biofilm. She mentioned maybe having me switch from boluoke to serrapeptase at some point to keep the biofilm guessing"

I am curious about switching the enzymes to make them more effective, does this mean that the biofilm has DNA or something?

anybody know exactly what makes up a biofilM???

it's starting to creep me out.

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Cass A
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Systemic enzymes work on the fibrin in the blood. They MAY work on biofilms.

Biofilms are not the same thing as fibrin. Biofilms are chemical "mats" or substrates put out by various bacteria so they can live in a colony together and be protected from the environment. Some experiments show that many, many kinds of bacteria colonize these biofilms.

Some examples of biofilms are plaque on teeth and the coating of biological gunk found in prosthetic joints on autopsy. (They exist there while the person is alive, but aren't found until the prosthetic joint is removed)

I believe that biofilms also exist inside blood vessels and in other areas also.

Some intra-cellular bacteria put out a "slime" and use it to move on. This is also considered a biofilm. I've seen pictures of this slime appearing after cells die, showing that something is "leaving the ship."

Try looking biofilms up on the internet.

Love,

Cass A

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Erica741
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Is Wobezym considered an enzyme for biofilm?

My LLMD has had me taking Wobezym for about 3 weeks. I take it without food, so it's supposed work outside of a digestive function. Would that be for biofilms?

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Cold Feet
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Erica, as Cass mentioned, biofilms are created by colonies of bacteria. Some colonies are thought to include multiple species, so this is a great question that we should leave with the people on the cutting edge (below).

I like the analogy I heard a while back: remember when you crossed a stream, and stepped on a slippery rock? There are lots of biofilms in nature -- and many different kinds of slippery rocks!

It will be a while before anyone can "match" & classify enzymes with biofilms they can eradicate. At least, that's my opinion.

In the meantime, just Google Alan McDonald and find some of his amazing work on biofilms. E.g., see: http://www.molecularalzheimer.org/files/Biofilm_New_Haven_ppt_Read-Only_.pdf

If you've not seen this, you may want to read the last 2-3 slides first, as the conclusions are helpful in understanding the microscopy pictures.

--------------------
My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com
2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia
2006 Positive after 2 years of hell
2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species
2009 - Beating candida, doing better
Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet!

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FunkOdyssey
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Although others may work, they only enzyme that has any evidence supporting its use against biofilms is Serrapeptase. I have heard that Alan MacDonald mentioned three agents that he thought would be effective, including heparin, garlic extract, and serrapeptase. I have not seen the 2008 UNH conference DVD to verify this myself. Serrapeptase and heparin definitely make sense to me, with serrapeptase being the more practical agent to use. I don't know if there is any evidence that orally-ingested garlic extract would be effective or whether that is just some in vitro thing MacDonald observed.

Hopefully no one will find these pubmed citations offensive -- sometimes I have to wonder with this LymeNet crowd! (you know what I'm talking about) [Wink]

quote:
Listeria monocytogenes is a notably invasive bacterium associated with life-threatening food-borne disease in humans. Several surface proteins have been shown to be essential in the adhesion of L. monocytogenes, and in the subsequent invasion of phagocytes. Because the control of the invasion of host cells by Listeria could potentially hinder its spread in the infected host, we have examined the effects of a protease treatment on the ability of L. monocytogenes to form biofilms and to invade tissues. We have chosen serratiopeptidase (SPEP), an extracellular metalloprotease produced by Serratia marcescens that is already widely used as an anti-inflammatory agent, and has been shown to modulate adhesin expression and to induce antibiotic sensitivity in other bacteria. Treatment of L. monocytogenes with sublethal concentrations of SPEP reduced their ability to form biofilms and to invade host cells.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1847988...Pubmed_RVDocSum

Microbiological testing suggested that infection persisted in only one (5.6%) of eighteen animals in the serratiopeptidase-and-antibiotic group, whereas it was present in six (37.5%) of sixteen animals in the antibiotic-only group (p = 0.001). Histological evaluation showed similar results (kappa = 0.92). CONCLUSIONS: Serratiopeptidase was effective for eradicating infection caused by biofilm-forming bacteria in this experimental animal model. The antibiofilm property of the enzyme may enhance antibiotic efficacy in the treatment of staphylococcal infections.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1675775...Pubmed_RVDocSum

Among the different mechanisms of bacterial resistance to antimicrobial agents that have been studied, biofilm formation is one of the most widespread. This mechanism is frequently the cause of failure in the treatment of prosthetic device infections, and several attempts have been made to develop molecules and protocols that are able to inhibit biofilm-embedded bacteria. We present data suggesting the possibility that proteolytic enzymes could significantly enhance the activities of antibiotics against biofilms. Antibiotic susceptibility tests on both planktonic and sessile cultures, studies on the dynamics of colonization of 10 biofilm-forming isolates, and then bioluminescence and scanning electron microscopy under seven different experimental conditions showed that serratiopeptidase greatly enhances the activity of ofloxacin on sessile cultures and can inhibit biofilm formation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8109925...Pubmed_RVDocSum

I am starting on serrapeptase (40,000u 3x daily on empty stomach) to compliment my antibiotic therapy. Maybe this will be the magic bullet that accelerates my treatment. It is logically appealing, to imagine how months and months of abx might only eat away at the surface layer of a large borellia biofilm without additional help to penetrate it or break it apart.
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