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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Probiotics are the weapon for biofilm

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Author Topic: Probiotics are the weapon for biofilm
lymie_in_md
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Abstract from the following link describing how to defeat biofilms:

quote:
In battling biofilms, immunological warfare is against microcolonies that cause some of the most tenacious infections known (ostitis or cavitations, chronic gastro-duodenitis, colitis, UTIs, etc). The weapon is knowledge of the enemy's communication system, involving ion channels that bathe and nourish biofilm microcolonies. The dense aggregation of slime surrounding the biofilm is the organic matrix that acts as a barrier to antibiotics or natural anti-infectives. Hence, aiming anti-infective treatments only at the biofilm without addressing PIP tends to drive the infection deeper into the body. It only takes one antibiotic treatment or one anti-infective treatment to cause these persistent and chronic infections. Hence, it is erroneous and potentially harmful to believe that biofilms can be conquered with the use of anti-yeast, anti-fungal, anti-bacterial approaches, bee propolis, allicin, colloidal silver or ionic footbaths, and RIFE treatments. Because a wide diversity of microbes is closely juxtaposed in a biofilm, killing off some of the microbes provides nutrients for surviving ones in the microcolony. Instead, an Achilles' heel or a fragile target for knocking out stubborn biofilms involves simultaneous detoxification of PIP with specific marine fermented substrates and full-spectrum probiotics.

http://www.townsendletter.com/AugSept2008/quantum0808.htm

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Bob

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lymie_in_md
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I found this too!

From "Quantum Medicine Update Newsletter"

http://www.aaqm.org/Downloads/aaqmdocMay08.pdf

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Bob

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Lymetoo
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What's PIP??

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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lymie_in_md
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Hopefully this helps 22 : [Big Grin]

I think "Northstar" has been researching this as well. It appears to be a new protocol.

quote:
Simply using common probiotic products is not enough, as commensals need to be in an appropriate non-competitive balance and be nourished with synbiotics and marine plant flora to successively thrive and flourish in the body.

Positive Ionic Poisoning (PIP)

is the number one enemy of commensal cells, as it promotes biofilm infections and prevents commensals from being able to proliferate and find permanent residence in the body.



--------------------
Bob

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djf2005
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so practically, what does this mean?

what brand and kind of probiotic should we be taking?

thanks

--------------------
"Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."

[email protected]

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lymie_in_md
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I'm not sure what this means just yet. At this moment I have no opinion. I'm hoping others might have some experience with this protocol.

What the protocol is essentially saying: ABX, and natural antibiotics such as garlic, onions, essential oils, rifing, you name it isn't going to get rid of biofilms. Instead he is saying by putting in strong probiotic strains from fermented vegetables and fruits you can get rid of pathogens through your own immune system.

Personally this might work if it weren't for lyme.

But maybe there is something tp what he is doing that might be helpful. I don't know.

It might be a protocol to discuss with our doctors. Get there take on it.

Just passing information I stumbled on.

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Bob

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Annxyz
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Thanks for sharing , but what the H--- do we do
to destroy the biofilm ? I wish the author of the article posed some options for the task .

It would seem that he would have suggested some
approach that might work.

Most of us are so sick of being sick that we would eat feces if it would actually cure us .
( Perish the thought , but thetruth is we would go to great lengths of enduring misery to be relieved of misery once and for all ) .

Please keep us posted on any biofilm info that surfaces .

I wonder about oil of oregano and enzymes as they were purported to destroy biofilm on a
bad staph strain .

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ANNXYZ

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lymie_in_md
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It comes down to fermenting foods with a culture and making them part of the normal diet. There's plenty of information on the internet for these types of foods.

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Bob

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feelfit
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Bob,

Like sauerkraut?

feelfit

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lymie_in_md
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That's a good one and I think that's what he means. I didn't say I was an expert with this, just passing information. I know, a lot of help I am. [lol]

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Bob

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ItCantBeTrue
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The second article seems to be pushing this product.

Seems awfully pricy.

http://www.drcolbert.com/product_info.php?products_id=213

--------------------
IGM positive WB through Igenex:
18+ 31++ 34+ 41+ 66+

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lymie_in_md
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No question about the pricey part. I'm wondering if there is way to make your own like yogurt. You know what they say "local is better", its fresher and has less culture loss. Maybe someone who knows how to culture saurkraut or other medium might chime in.

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Bob

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brentb
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Hence, it is erroneous and potentially harmful to believe that biofilms can be conquered with the use of anti-yeast, anti-fungal, anti-bacterial approaches, bee propolis, allicin, colloidal silver or ionic footbaths, and RIFE treatments.
---------------------------------------------------
What?!? This is pure opinion and it grates on my nerves the way some state opinion as if it was fact. If he can show me studies to backup his statement...fine. If not kindly shut up or state this is HIS opinion.

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Jellybelly
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Thanks Lymie! Very interesting stuff, and hopefully we can pull the pieces of this bioflm together and find out what degrades it quickly.

Brent, while this person/company may be selling something. The concept is NOT personal opinion. This information was discussed the the new documentary "Under Our Skin". I have watched this movie 5 times now in the last 2.5 weeks, showing it to 4 other people/groups.

Dr. McDonald discusses biofilms at the end and this may truly be what is preventing people from getting well, and or needing years of abx.

What we do already know is the heparin cuts biofilm, and there are a handful of us right here on this board, who have been given heparin for other things. I have always wondered why, I have gained such a high degree of remission with so very little abx, micro amounts are more appropriate words. My gut feeling is that when I was on heparin, it cut the biofilm, and there was nothing in the way of either my immune system or the abx. I have my tick born infections in about 85-90% remission for about 5 years now.

I am hoping that this discovery of biofilms will completely alter how Lyme is treated, leading to much less antibiotics, and that is a good thing all the way around!

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lymie_in_md
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Brent I have a study that shows as you said quite the opposite where a combination of monolaurin and oregano oil destroys strep aureus biofilm. Specifically the biofilm! I can't seem to find the link to the study but it is one of my posts.

Remember I'm just the messenger.

What he is saying is the natural antiviral anti bacterial like allicin destroy good bacteria just like antibiotics. I'm not so sure about it, and it has been quite a debate in the past.

However, he may be on to something with this new kind of probiotic which is based on fermentation. And maybe there something useful there.

--------------------
Bob

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brentb
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What I have a problem with is his assertion colloidal silver does not work against biofilms. I've been fighting mine for longer than I care to remember. I'm "lucky" enough to where I can feel the film not just the "I'm feeling better" which may be subjective.

So far I've fought this thing back from almost a full upper body infection in my back and arms to my neck and face. It started as a sinus infection! It's also a chronic strep infection not borrelia (which I think I've conquered.)

The main weapons I use are interestingly enough oil of oregano (never saw the study but would like to), colloidal silver, and lots of sunshine (especially on my face). As of today I can can finally feel the normal sharp curves of my skull that everyone else has.

So...don't tell me these things don't work. Does his product help? Don't know...I've tried everything and may even try this. Again my problem is not with description of the difficulties of biofilms. I'm very aware of it. It's the dismissal of certain potential remedies without scientific facts backing it up.

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Jellybelly
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I don't know that the person is saying they do not work, but due to the nature of biofilms, it may take much longer. People in UOS got better, but most were on years of the port to the heart abx. One person used the expression he was soaked in abx for years.

If that isn't needed, or if it would only take 3 weeks of what you have done to get well instead of however many months to years you have worked at it by removing the biofilm, then that can't be bad for anyone. If it really only took 6 weeks of oral abx at a regular dose(just conjecture), that would be far better than to have a tube inserted into your chest to infuse abx. I think we would all agree there.

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brentb
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quote:
Originally posted by Jellybelly:
One person used the expression he was soaked in abx for years.


Pretty funny description. I've been soaked in all the abx including towards the end vanco and gent. Very long term and his dismissal of traditional abx is more than fair.

I would even add that beyond the defense the biofilm goes on offense producing it's own toxins to kill the invader. Strep toxic shock is a very nasty place to be.

In any case his word is "erroneous" concerning the use of either abx OR natural anti-infectives to fight biofilms. I agree with the first part.

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lymie_in_md
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I erred as far as a combination of monolaurin and oregano-oil as saying they would dissolve biofilms. I couldn't find any researched to back that up. Ooops on my part.

--------------------
Bob

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lymie_in_md
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Brent here's the study:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FDL/is_3_12/ai_n17211117/pg_2

--------------------
Bob

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NanaDubo
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Very interesting stuff Bob. I don't know if this product has all the same good stuff but it's certainly less expensive,

www.kalisessentials.com/site/1262646/page/620738


I don't sell it [Smile]

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jamieL
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Now I'm craving sauerkraut. I'd be happy to

eat a can every day for a month and tell

everyone how it works.

Unless DH kills me first. [Razz]

--------------------
Diagnosed with :yme and mycoplasma pneumonia Aug 08.
Treating with Doxy and Ceftin ever since. 15 sessions in hyperbaric o2 chamber

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brentb
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quote:
Originally posted by lymie_in_md:
Brent here's the study:

Thanks...I have no idea if I'm taking the amount needed to be therapeutic as per the trial. I'm doing as much as I can remember to do. (about one dose/hour). My thrush is improving if nothing else [Smile]
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lymie_in_md
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Good find Nanadubo, looks very reasonable to try. [Big Grin]

It seems a combination of the commensal probiotic and cultured fermented food might just be a great addition to a protocol and not too expensive.

I'm curious if anyone is going to see their LLMD soon. It might be a good idea to print the links from this topic and see what they think and report back.

--------------------
Bob

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troutscout
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Guys,

This is why I do SO well on Livingstreams Probiotic......Paradophilous.

The inventer and fermenter is in Kansas City....wonderful man.

It is a FERMMENTED probiotic....and it makes me herx.

Big Time.

Trout [Wink]

--------------------
Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within.
Let the claws be bared,
and Lyme BEWARE!!!
www.iowalymedisease.com
[/URL]  -

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yanivnaced
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Search on the old "rechts regulat" posts.
I think it also dissolves biofilm slime layer.

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psano2
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what about nattokinase? It's from natto, which is a fermented soybean product eaten in Japan.
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SForsgren
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Trout, do you take the suggested 3 tablespoons per day? that's 1.5 ounces which suggests for 30 days one would need 45 ounces which is 300 dollars. Are you taking that much?

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Keebler
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-

Miso soup, too, has fabulous probiotics.


-

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MaryMi
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Natural Homemade Probiotic taken from T Colon Health Handbook


CABBAGE REJUVELAC:

Cabbage is a vegetable that is teemng with lactobacteria. No starter is needed for making rejuvelac. Just start one morning by blending together 1 3/4 cups (420ml) distilled or purified water plus 3 cups (720ml coarsely chopped, loosely packed fresh cabbage. Start the blender at low speed and then advance the blender to high speed and blend for 30 more seconds. Pour into a jar, cover, and let stand at room temperature for 3 days. At this time, strain off the liquid rejuvelac. The initial batch of cabbage rejuvelac takes 3 days to mature, but succeeding batches take 24 hours each.

Each morning after straining off the fresh rejuvelac, blend together for 30 seconds at high speed 1 1/2 cups (360ml) distilled or purified water plus 3 cups (720ml) coarsely chopped, loosely packed fresh cabbage. Pour into a jar, add 1/4 cup (60ml) of the fresh rejuvelac just strained off, cover, shake and let stand at room temp. until the next morning.

You can also make cabbage rejuvelac without a blender by chopping the cabbage very fine and using 2 1/2 cups (600ml) finely chopped, loosely packed cabbage listed above. The amount of distilled or purified water used should remain unchanged.

Good quality rejuvelac tastes similar to a cross between carbonated water and the whey obtained when making yogurt. Bad quality rejuvelac has a much more putrid odor and taste and should not be consumed. Always avoid using tap water when making rejuvelac because chlorine has been added to it for the purpose of killing bacteria of any kind.

Drink each day's rejuvelac during the course of the day by taking 1/2 cup (120ml) 3x a day, preferably with meals.

To implant a healthy population of lactobacteria in the intestinal tract, 1-3 months of taking rejuvelac are required. Keep taking rejuvelac daily for a minimum of one month but for however long necessary until you obtain reasonably bulky, well-lubricated stools on a day-after-day basis while eating a diet moderate in mucoidforming activity. If the stools bcome much less bulky or less lubricated when the rejuvelac is stopped and no change in diet has been made, the implantation was probably unsuccessful and should be tried again. Including cabbage, cabbage juice, or sun chokes in the diet, while rejuvelac is being taken can greatly assist the lactobacteria implantation process. When rejuvenating the digestion through an appropriate natural-healing program, 2-3 months of taking rejuvelac should be performed.

Robert Gray - The Colon Health Handbook

PLEASE NOTE: You must use sterile equipment, cabbage, water and containers as possible. Wash the blender, and any containers in very hot water first. Peel the cabbage well and then soak in a weak bleach solution for ten minutes. Soak in filtered or distilled water. Use plastic wrap to give an additional seal to the glass container when you screw on the lid. Then pass the mixture through a strainer or cheese cloth. Throw away the pulp and place the liquid in a glass jar and refrigerate. Drink one-half cup 2 or 3 times a day. To make a second batch only requires one day, instead of three. Blend cabbage and distilled water as directed above and add * cup of the last batch of cultured juice to the new batch and cover with a plastic or cellophane sheet. It will be ready in just 24 hours. This process can be repeated indefinitely. Its worth pointing out that this extraordinarily effective detoxification protocol costs only pennies a day. White Cabbage is best.

WHEAT BERRIES
Wheat is a grass and whole wheat berries are teeming with lactobacteria. No starter is needed for making rejuvelac. Just add two cups of distilled or puriied water to one cup whole wheat berries....cover and let stand at room temperature...sterilize container and lid. Cover jar with cheese-cloth, piece of nylon stocking, or nylon mesh. Leave at room temp and it will be ready to drink 2-4 days until bubbles appear on top. Strain off the liquid.do not shake jar.and drink. Then add more water and repeat... You can do this for ten days with the same berries. After the initial day and one half the rest will be ready in just 24 hours. If you use millet seed they will act the same..but you can only use it for four days or it will be too weak to be of any value.


Smell the drink before using it. If the odor is offensive, do not use it. Sometimes the drink gets contaminated by other bacteria strains. Don't expect this to taste like your favorite soft drink. It has a peculiar and unusual tang. This drink implants friendly bacteria into the intestinal tract much more effectively than eating yogurt or taking acidophilus tablets

I use Dr. Ohhira's Probiotic 12 plus (fermented 3 years)
http://www.allhealthtrends.com/DrOhhiras12PLUS60.html

--------------------
 -
This is only my opinion and/or experience with Lyme Disease. I am not a medical professional.

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lymie_in_md
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Thanks Mary -- That's a fantastic recipe, It appears probiotics might not be enough. Going back to older methods for repopulating the intestinal flora might be the best way. A lot folks did well with home made saurerkraut, meso, tempeh, kimchi, etc...

I've been buying something with a brand called "Zukay" at the health food store. It is cultured cucumber, dill, and horseradish. The also have cultured salsa.

I think ohhirra's is great too, I've been thinking at some point to try the professional formula fermented 5 years. Its about 43 dollars for 60 caps at iherb.

instead of spending $100 for the one on the link. Maybe ohhirra's is the way to go.

Anyone have a recipe for cultured salsa?

--------------------
Bob

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Cass A
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Dear Guys,

Most sauerkraut you buy has no good bacteria in it any more--it's been pasteurized or boiled if canned, and many also have preservatives in them!!!

Bubbie's makes a sauerkraut with only salt and water--no preservatives--that is kept refridgerated.

Always best to make your own, but if you don't, go with one that still has the good bacteria in it.

Best,

Cass A

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NanaDubo
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Hey Bob - my son is a sauerkraut nut and we keep Zukay in the fridge all the time. He makes his own as well.

Going to look into Ohhirra when I get back (with lots of rechtsregulat in my suitcase). My son is back at college so doesn't keep me supplied with homemade now.

Troutscout your mailbox is full - how do you order the one from Living Streams?


[Big Grin]

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ric
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Hi all. I registered just to make a comment here.
Hope this is helpful.

We have been using Kefir for months now. It is a fermented product like Yogurt but much easier to make and more potent (approx. 50 Billion organisms per cup, and has all the flora that are costing big bucks to buy in a pill, plus about a hundred others all living in balance, but for pennies a day).

Easy to get started:

Step 1: go here to contact a local to obtain free live Kefir grains - http://www.torontoadvisors.com/Kefir/kefir-list.php

Step 2: Add Kefir Grains to a clean glass container and add cold milk and leave on counter overnight (I put paper towel over top). (or use grape juice, etc. but please look here for many ideas and everything about Kefir - http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html#Utensils

Step 3: Next morning strain out Kefir grains and repeat process.

Step 4: Drink the liquid you have strained - this is Kefir -or put in fridge awhile to increase B vitamin content.

I drink a half cup in a.m. and then in afternoon. If it's too sour i add honey.

Posts: 1 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lymie_in_md
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I'm definitely going to make some of these suggestions.

I'm curious if this would work. Buy a good pasteurized sauerkraut and re-culture it. That seems pretty cheap. Any thoughts?

--------------------
Bob

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