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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » 18 Reasons to Argue ..................

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Author Topic: 18 Reasons to Argue ..................
seibertneurolyme
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Actually the article is called -- 18 Reasons Lyme Treatment Fails.

http://tinyurl.com/48grs2

Don't know about the rest of you, but I found parts of this article insulting to both LLMD's and patients. And there were some treatments such as HBOT which were bashed as well.

Surprisingly, there were a couple of reasons not on the list that I expected to see there -- nothing about yeast (Candida), heavy metals (mercury) or even viral infections.

I hope the book when it is finally published includes some useful treatment info. We all know that many Babesia and Bartonella treatments do not work, but I can't afford to buy 5 different books to gain any useful info.

Bea Seibert

[ 15. October 2008, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: seibertneurolyme ]

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seibertneurolyme
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I was very happy to see reason #10 included in the list. I really do worry about patients who dive right in and take massive doses of multiple antibiotics from the start of treatment.

From the reactions hubby has had I know just how serious a herx can be.

Bea Seibert

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AliG
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Goodness Bea,

He sounds like he has Bart. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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AliG
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He thinks highly of himself.

Are there any patients here who would attest to his statement: "Dr. Schaller is the author of 27 peer-reviewed journal articles and is one of the most prolific LL MD's in the world. "?

He's also complaining that MDs are not ordering his books or seeking paid consultations with him?

Every book of his I've bought tells me that I should buy one of his other books to understand a reference in the one I am reading.

I'm not really sure what to think of him. [confused]

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Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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Hoosiers51
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Is it really true that patients treated with 1 tsp twice daily of Mepron will relapse?

[Frown]

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Curiouser
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Bea, you're right about several issues being missed. Wonder why that is?

I find his constant "buy my book(s)" comments to be unprofessional and irritating.

However, I do agree with his comments on cyst busters. Been wanting to talk to my doc about that for awhile now.

Wouldn't anyone who's had lyme for any extended period of time have the cystic form so why not hit them right off the bat?

#15 gave me a bit of a chuckle. Some friends and relatives don't need to have TBIs to be poopy-heads. [Big Grin]

I think what gets me out of all that is he rips on LLMDs and then says you can't get better on your own either (Reason #17).

So who are you supposed to turn to when you can't afford treatment anymore? Oh right. You're supposed to buy his books. [Razz]

Hrm... apparently, I'm channeling my inner cynic today.

I'm with AliG. Dunno what to think of this guy.

--------------------
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. - Lewis Carroll

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treepatrol
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I dont agree with everything he has said over the years but hes usually pretty well on target.

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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LittleLymie19
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I'm with Hoosiers and Dizzyup. I'm about to start babesia treatment with Mepron.

What DOES work for babesia then?

I'm on art and enula right now as well, is he saying that isn't enough either?

I wish he'd back up his arguments in his article a little more. But maybe he does so in his books.

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lymeladyinNY
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I think Dr. S. is just frustrated because he believes he has a lot of the answers and no one is listening.

--------------------
I want to be free

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UnexpectedIlls
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It also said that HBOT was a joke... I thought that this worked for people??? I was going to get HBOT myself...

--------------------
"You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end"

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AliG
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I could certainly understand THAT frustration. We all have a lot of answers that no one has been listening to. [Frown]

Perhaps if he actually did trials & published studies, instead of trying to only sell books, he might be able to make a difference with our doctors?

Most doctors tend to hit the journals for info before they would run out & buy books.

The book I am reading "The Health Care Professional's Guide to the Treatment and Diagnosis of Human Babesiosis" is written as though it would be speaking to paitients, not colleagues.

It is also written in VERY neuro-lyme friendly font-size. It would seem to be a large text when actually, if printed in a normal font it would likely condense down to 1/4-1/3.

If it WERE smaller, perhaps more physicians would crack it open.

IMO- he needs to stop trying to draw everyone from one book to another. If people read one book & it is concise, complete and informative, they would buy others, even if there was some of the same info repeated because it pertained to both subjects.

I don't think it is right to sell a book & then tel someone they have to buy another book if they want all of the information. I would certainly think that LLMDs would resent that.

I'm not saying he doesn't have any good information, because I think that he DOES have some good info. I just resent the way he is trying to manipulate people.

I am not feeling very well today and that could be making me cranky. This probably wouldn't bother me as much on a "good" day. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner.

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TerryK
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Yes, I agree, he sounds frustrated.

I thought his babesia book was excellent. I found out in that book that I shouldn't be taking doxy. I was taking doxy, called the manufacturer of mepron and Dr. S. was right, doxy reduces mepron by as much as 40%.

I was on 2 teaspoons of mepron per day for 6 1/2 months. I still have babesia. At over a $1,000 a month, I can't pay for this kind of treatment over and over so hopefully twice the dose will help.

Frankly, I'm just glad that someone is out there writing books for us and trying to bring awareness to doctors about lyme disease.

I think he probably is one of the most prolific LL MD's. I don't see very many LL MD's writing books do you?

I plan to get his bart book soon.

Terry

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seibertneurolyme
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I think docs get a lot of their info at seminars, then journals and lastly from books.

If this doc wants to be taken seriously by other LLMD's then I think he needs to be making presentations at medical seminars.

As for the Babesia treatment -- hubby can't speak for Mepron as he was allergic to that med. This is one bug we have been trying to get rid of for 3 years now on and off.

Some other reasons that I would probably have also included in the list -- G.I. parasites, mycoplasma and other coinfections (ehrlichia, RMSF, Query fever, tularemia etc).

And then there are hormonal issues that do not always correct themselves even if the infection is eradicated -- adrenal, thyroid, etc.

The concept behind the article (which I understood is the title of a forthcoming book) is very good. Lyme and company is very complex and there is no one size fits all treatment. The writing style unfortunately can obscure the message.

Bea Seibert

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seibertneurolyme
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UnexpectedIlls,

Regarding HBOT -- this is my opinion only -- I have never felt that this was an effective killing agent used as a stand alone treatment. That was the doc's conclusion as well.

The part that he did not address -- does HBOT used concurrently with antibiotics make the antibiotics work better. My impression is yes, but I have no actual data to back that up.

Bea Seibert

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jl123
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With an illness as absolutely devastating and wide-spread as this, why o why is there not a llmd database that covers the outcomes and treatment plans of all patients? Right now its way too "word of mouth". jl
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seibertneurolyme
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jl123,

That is what the Dr B is working on now -- trying to get other LLMD's to collaborate on such a database.

Bea Seibert

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mcoLyme08
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quote:
Originally posted by AliG:
[QB] He thinks highly of himself.

Are there any patients here who would attest to his statement: "Dr. Schaller is the author of 27 peer-reviewed journal articles and is one of the most prolific LL MD's in the world. "?
/QB]

I have first-hand experience with him. I am not one to make a doctor bashing post, just because he was not "the" doctor for me, doesn't mean he isn't helping someone else...I wouldn't want to offend anyone.

The word prolific is defined as intellectually productive; "a prolific writer"; "a fecund imagination"

So, yes...He's "prolific." He writes a new book every few months it seems. Often very convincing with his words, too.

He's trying, I think he believes he is right, From experience, I left him for a top ILADs LLMD doctor, one who has been treating 25+ years in New York....I'm making improvement now, on high-dosages of antibiotics, following Dr. Burrascano's guidelines, none of the "other" stuff.

Dr. S told me I was too ill for antibiotics, due to testing positive for the HLA type that meant I couldn't excrete Lyme's biotoxins, he contradicts himself, as he had me on over 40 pills a day, Cholestyramine and others ordered from "special" pharmacies around the globe. He was insistent that I had to treat Babesia first, even though taking 1/4 tsp. of Mepron landed me in the ER with a high fever of 103.

I'm treating Lyme and Babesia at the same time right now with my new doctor, IV antibiotics- full dose, and making improvements.

Has he cured people with Lyme? I hope so.

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TerryK
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Bea wrote:
If this doc wants to be taken seriously by other LLMD's then I think he needs to be making presentations at medical seminars.

I don't know his history and whether he has presented much in the past but he is listed as a speaker at the Florida conference that was held 1-19-08.
http://www.ldsg.org/index.php?id=14

I was interested to note that on a visit to an LLMD that the waiting room had a copy of the babesia book. I don't know if the office staff read it but I would assume they at least glanced through it.

I agree with your additions to his list. One other thing I would add to his list is methylation cycle mutations. One of the mutations that I have makes parasitic infections much worse. Babesia is a parasitic infection.

I hope your husband can finally get rid of babesia soon. It is so frustrating to hear mainstream state that it is a very easy infection to get rid of and yet many of us find that it is not.

Terry

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artur737
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There is a lot of criticism towards other ILADS members, but not that much answers.
Is this guy really that good?
Somehow I have never seen anybody cured by him posting on this board.

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SForsgren
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I think we take out some of our own frustrations about our illnesses on people that discuss things that we don't want to hear. Much of what he states suggests that we don't have many answers - but we already knew that.

I agree that HBOT is likely not useful for Lyme. I've never seen one adult that did it that benefited long term after they stopped doing it.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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hopeandhealth
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Since I am so close to him, I have been thinking about finding a way to take out yet another loan or sell my car to go to him. I thought maybe because he "seems" well versed in lyme and the co's, that he could get me better.

I was completely turned off when I told him the amount of money I had, at the time, 3 grand for the Lymie fund. He chuckled and said, "Well, I'm sorry but you simply can't afford me."

I started crying and he said he "wishes he would be able to take charity cases but not right now because he isn't rich, doesn't make much money, and isn't in the position to do charity work."

I was really turned off then because I knew he wrote ALL of these books, I knew and know he has lots of money, and that's when I chose the other llmd - which proved to be NOT what I needed either, but still.

HAS ANYONE ON HERE HAD SUCCESS WITH HIM? I've been considering trying him out....after I try to get another loan. What do you all think?

Do you think he's more concerned about his patients or his money and reputation of being the best...because that's the vibe I get.

--------------------
~*~Lyme POW~*~

I will escape.

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UnexpectedIlls
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Sforsgren-- "I agree that HBOT is likely not useful for Lyme. I've never seen one adult that did it that benefited long term after they stopped doing it."

How do you explain WildCondor than (who stayed well after treatment), or anyone else that has had benefit from it? How can you say it DOESN'T work?? Have you personally tried it? How about Oxygenbabe who uses it and has her own chamber and cannot be without....

I think it is irresponsible to say that it DOES not work for anyone...

I am not saying it is a cure all, or that it will even work for me, but I will give it a try and than I can make a REAL first hand assesment of it.

--------------------
"You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end"

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TerryK
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Unexpectedills-

I'm sure Scott will come back and explain but this is what he stated

"I've never seen one adult that did it that benefited long term after they stopped doing it."

That is not the same as saying it does not work for anyone. If one has their own chamber then obviously they don't stop doing it.

Terry

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SForsgren
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Correct, if you keep doing it, it may help. I know many adults that have done 40 - 120 dives, spent a fortune, lots of time, and say that it was not worth one dollar. Many doctors that I have spoken with have relayed similar experiences. Does it help? Sure, possibly, maybe - while you are doing it. But does it last? Probably not.

We have to also remember that the few people that might feel like it helped often did many other things as well so it would be difficult to say HBOT was a major factor.

There are even some that suggest HBOT can actually flare up Babesia and as a result, some people seem to worsen with HBOT treatment.

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Be well,
Scott

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UnexpectedIlls
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Well I am sorry I misunderstood... Thanks for pointing that out

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"You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end"

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tickbattler
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I bought Dr. S's bartonella book and was a little disappointed. He also rubs me the wrong way. There is no question in my mind that he is focused on making as much $$$ as possible.

Perhaps he knows his stuff, I don't know. But I found his bart book not particularly impressive. I did learn something (if he is right about what he says) but there were a lot of photos that were not especially clear and there was very little writing about bart. Apparently we have to wait until his next book for that.

It is irritating that he is so obvious about his desire to sell his books. I think it really hurts his credibility as a medical professional.

tickbattler

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Boomerang
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Good grief. He always comes across to me as if he's more interested in selling books than anything. I bought his last book .... a waste of money imho.

$3,000 wasn't enough for him to consider a patient for treatment? Wow. He does have quite a high opinion of himself.

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TerryK
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Unless you have insurance, $3,000 is not enough to cover even a fraction of the costs for chronic lyme with any LLMD. The meds alone will run way over that.

You couldn't even treat chronic lyme effectively with alternatives if that is all you have for the full course of treatment. It stinks but unfortunately, that is the reality.

I'd rather have a doctor tell me up-front that the money that I have available is not going to be enough instead of taking all my money and leaving me without my money and no further treatment.

I don't know why so many people think that lyme doctors should give out free medical treatment and advice. Many lyme doctors do try to give extra but they are like everyone else and need to make a living.

I don't know what his financial situation is and it's none of my business. Most doctors who go to the trouble of writing books get paid for their efforts. Why should he be any different?

I don't know him, have never been to him but I'm a little dismayed at the way lyme doctors are bashed, especially here on lymenet. We need them and we are darn lucky that they risk their licenses to treat us. That should be worth something don't ya think?

Terry

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mcoLyme08
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quote:
Originally posted by hopeandhealth:

I was completely turned off when I told him the amount of money I had, at the time, 3 grand for the Lymie fund. He chuckled and said, "Well, I'm sorry but you simply can't afford me."
[/QB]

3,000 is enough to treat with him for about 2 weeks. Most of the medications/supplements, etc. are not covered (and there are a lot of them), phone consults and in-patient consults are very pricey.
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Lymetoo
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I thought this thread was about arguing....something I'm rarely interested in!!! Joke's on me! [Big Grin]

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--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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seibertneurolyme
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tutu,

I thought since everyone seems to be arguing about treatments and whether they work or not then they could vent about some of the statements made by the doc in the article.

As far as I know while some of the info is pretty well accepted -- Babs and Bart are hard to diagnose and hard to treat-- some of the other statements are just the opinion of this doc and I haven't seen a lot of scientific evidence to back them up.

I didn't start this thread to bash the doc. I do find his writing style somewhat offensive and irritating. But you don't have to like someone to agree with them.

I just wondered how many agreed with his conclusions as to why Lyme patients don't get well.

Bea Seibert

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hcconn22
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I read the article last night and was quite offended and at the message and messenger.

Lyme is a bad enough if your sick, then add Babesia and Bartonolla and you feel like crap.

But I must tell you- and you can disagree if you want, but I felt like I was reading a self-promoting advertisement-- of how smart, how knowledgeable and how great Dr Schaller is, or thinks he is.... Like he knows the secret cure to Lyme and co-infections....and others don't... and leads you on like he knows somthing that you and your LLMD does not know.

Where are all the people that have been CURED by Dr S.?? Speak up now, or maybe your not on this board because your cured.

AND IF and ONLY IF you LLMD knew what he knew you would be CURED in short order.

Too bad your getting the wrong treatment and too bad your LLMD did not read his books, so they would know too.

I had a objective +++ test for Babesia, Bartonolla and 10 bands on the WB, IGG & IGM. In fact several tests with similar results.

My Results

Did 3 months of Mepron & Zith and it greatly helped for babesia.

Then did 2 months of Riphamin and Mino for bart and it helped.

Now doing bicillian and diflucan and it's helping.. not CURED but maybe 80% better after 10 months of total treatment.

By the way there is a reason that Dr's do not read his books...... They are rambling and full of the same nonsense, bad photos, poor explanations and case studies... and maybe this and maybe that, and sometimes this-- no facts, no outcomes, no research, no clinical trials, no published or peer reviewed studies. No patient testimonials.

If Schaller has FACTUAL information, scientific studies, OR ADVANCED TREATMENT PROTOCALS that are better than ILADS then he should stand up and say so THEN PUBLISH THEM-- and truly help others. Not tease us like a kids...." I know something that you don't know".

I guess you can tell that I have a bad taste after reading this article-- as it sends the same message of confusion, lack of clarity that plague Lyme Disease in general.

In the end I will stick with my LLMD, who spends his time doing research, treating and helping sick people, standing up in public forums to speak up for Lyme Disease, defends other LLMS's that are under investigation by state medical boards, risking his medical license, using clinical experience, and treating carefully and thoughtfully with long term antibiotics -- rather that writing books and self promoting articles.

Lyme is bad enough and full of enough confusion and mis-information. I dont need 18 more reasons why treatments fail--- the jury has long been out on HBOT that it does not work.

HOW about 2-3 case studies of how Dr S helped sick people truly get cured if they had Lyme.

I guess the old saying is not that far off.

Those that can not do, teach and those that can not teach write.

[ 16. October 2008, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: hcconn22 ]

--------------------
Positive 10 bands WB IGG & IGM
+ Babesia + Bartonolla and NOW RMSF 3/5/09 all at Quest

And still positive ELISA and WB two years after IV treatment
http://www.lymefriends.org/profile/blake

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oxygenbabe
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I've heard bad things about Schaller. Too expensive, arrogant, self-promoting, churning out books based on a smorgasbord of everything he's read from other doctors, etc. Also is he still actively working with Dr. Shoemaker of Mold Warriors fame? Why does he in this article only put his name in parenthesis and only with the first initial (R. Shoemaker).

And as for cysts--lyme will form cysts, period. Lyme will also form granules. Just like syphilis.

As for babesia, everybody knows mepron/zith is not a "cure" for babesia. The question is can you get the #'s low enough that its basically not a problem. For many mepron/zith works. For many it doesn't. Other treatments may work, may not. It's individual.

In Cure Unknown, Burrascano advised the author to therefore take high doses (worthy of penetrating the CNS) until symptom free, then allow total relapse, and then repeat the cycle. Thus at symptom free no active spirochetes, off antibiotics cysts come out and release spirochetes and you allow total clinical relapse because then all the lyme is very active again, and give antibiotics at high dose again.

I can't do that approach but think it is SPOT on and you don't need all those "cyst busters" esp since there are granules anyway (read up on syphilis) which are closer to spores and seeds and THOSE can lead to recrudescence also.

By this approach you are slowly eliminating the lyme population and lessening the cyst population until it is very low or nil. Cysts degrade over time and aren't viable after 18-24 months I believe. There was some work on that smoewhere.

Also the pulsing approach would allow people's systems to recover in the interim.

Best smartest clinical approach I ever read about.

Wish I could do it.

That publication, Health News Alert, I don't think too highly of. Lots of sloppy information in it. Instead, look to certified reputable journalists and doctors. Dr. B is retired but trying to get a genuine lyme registry. Pamela Weintraub's Cure Unknown has all the important scientific information. Scientists like Barthold, Luft and Wais understand more about borrelia than Schaller who seems to be posturing, loud, declamatory etc.

Hey maybe he's helped some people but I wouldn't go to a doctor who is so self-promoting.

[ 16. October 2008, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]

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Lymetoo
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Thanks Bea! [Smile] I just didn't open the thread since I wasn't interested in arguing. Made me laugh when I saw what it was really about! [Razz]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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BOEJR
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Hi Folks,

I see that the HBOT topic is on fire here so I will give my opinion on the article and HBOT...I do not always agree with my colleage but I have to agree with some things.

I have always maintained that HBOT, antibiotics, rife you name it will not "cure" lyme, co infections included. I do however believe that HBOT does kill the spirochetes so do several of these therapies.

What we have to figure out is how is this bacteria so resilient? We know that it takes a cystic form... It is a bacteria that acts like a virus,, it recurs.

HBOT is MY preferred treatment modality because it is non toxic and also heals damage done by the years of untreated lyme. It is an approved treatment modality for wound healing, So what stops it from from healing areas that are damaged like the brain? Politics,,

Dr Schaller has a great big heart and an ego to match! I applaud him for his work and yes I have sent him two patients. Both contacted me to thank me for having referred them to him. I have never been to him myself but I would like to.

I have heard that he is a bit pricey, but the truth is if you consider that what you pay almost any LLMD it is about the same. I will say that he has always responded to my emails... I don't even know my LLMD email and I have been with her for years

The last thing that I have to say regarding the article is that we have to keep our minds open to all points of view. I am grateful that there is a doctor out there willing to do this work and he deserves to be rewarded for it...

I have always recommended that anyone considering HBOT should target heavy metals and virals. Why? because they weaken your imunne system and keep you in a toxic state.

I am so happy that this is not a thread about arguing [hi]

Kind Regards,

Julia

--------------------
Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen.

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MariaA
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I got his babesia book recently, and yes, it's written for sick patients- large font, simple language, and all. I think that's a good thing, though it's certainly not really written for other doctors!

I found it a good summary of many different options and I thought it was very useful that he summarized what some other LLMD's had told him about their approach.

I didn't have a problem with his tone in that book (which means nothing about his other books or him in person) I'm usually pretty cynical about things like this, but it was far more readable and concise than the other Dr S's Mold Warriors, which I thought was a tangled rant with some good info buried deeply in it.

--------------------
Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!

Find me at Lymefriends, I post under the same name.
diet: http://lymefriends.ning.com/group/healthylowcarbrecipes
Homemade Probiotics thread
Herbal Links Thread

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klutzo
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Just about everything I am going to say is hearsay, so draw your own conclusions. However, the sources are people whom I know well, and feel are very honest.

I live in central Florida and have a Lyme friend who went to Dr. S, but not for long. She calls him "Dr. Genius" sarcastically, and while she thinks he is very smart and knows his stuff, she thinks he is primarily interested in research and writing, rather than treating patients.

She did not feel comfortable with him and changed to a more conventional LLMD, the only other one we have left around here. Where there used to be seven LLMD's, now there are only two. TPTB have done a great job of scaring them off.

Dr. S. is a Psychiatrist. I don't know if it's true, but I've been told he became interested in Lyme when both he and his six year old son came down with Lyme, and while he was cured, the son almost died from the supposedly non-existant chronic form. He was even told by a state official that there are no deer in Florida, a blatant lie which made him furious.

As far as not being rich, he has a clinic in Tampa, but he has another clinic a few hours south of here in Naples, one of the wealthiest cities in the USA. Last I heard, he was charging $9 per minute for phone consults, and he retains the right to say how long the conversation will last. It never lasts less than an hour, or so I've been told.

IMO, many jokes are told about lawyers being ambulance chasers and sharks, etc. but even lawyers long ago decided to require each other to do a certain percentage of free "pro bono" work for the poor each year. I have personally benefited from this twice since going on disability for Lyme/Fibro.

I have often wondered why doctors won't do the same, when as a group, they make far more than the average lawyer. Instead, most of them refuse to see Medicaid patients, and now some even refuse to see Medicare patients.

Example: My own PCP says she can't possibly afford to mail me copies of my lab results, and she knows I can't drive any more to come get them. Yet, she is building herself a huge new home. I can't even begin to afford an LLMD. I do appreciate the risks LLMDs take to treat us, but priorities are badly skewed when profit becomes the main motive in medicine.

klutzo

P.S. I found it amusing that the article bashed HBOT, but one of the paying sponsors at the bottom of the page was an HBOT clinic! [Big Grin]

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Angelica
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Maria I agree with you about Mold Warriors. I could not read the whole thing and was more than happy to pass that book on to someone else.
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pryorka
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Hey dizzy and the others wondering about mepron dose. I'm on two teaspoons twice a day and I'm not even getting better. I have heard others say this dose did work for them when the single dose didn't work.

Another point to make is I have duncani so that could be tougher to kill with mepron or something.

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WildCondor
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Just my 2 cents...arguing is fun...and it's how we can all learn from each other. Avoid personal attacks and argue the issues! I loved Hyperbaric, and yes, I am still doing well, 6 years after my last HBOT treatment. It was amazing for me and was a key part of my successful treatment. What works for one of us may not work for another, so keep your minds open. [Smile]
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canbravelyme
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I found this interesting:

"Two of the twenty biofilm treatments we are already exploring include these samples. First, if you look at what kills spirochetes making plaque in your mouth, you will notice that the key ingredients include four essential oils present in products like Listerine."

Well that is this, which there are claims "cured" Lyme(s):

http://www.secretofthieves.com/

http://www.quantumbalancing.com/news/thieves_oil.htm

I wonder if the vinegar has anything to do with the efficacy? We could take it with Apple Cider Vinegar?

--------------------
For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician.

Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Angelica
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All flavors of LISTERINE Antiseptic contain the same fixed
combination of four essential oils:

eucalyptol (0.092%)
The essential oil of eucalyptus

menthol (0.042%)
Mint

methyl salicylate (0.060%)
Oil of wintergreen

thymol (0.064%)
Thyme

*************************************

The Thieves brand of mouthwash contains Polysorbate 80 not a healthy ingredient one wants to be putting in their mouth

[ 20. October 2008, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: Angelica ]

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SForsgren
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Thieves is unique. I am just starting to learn about it. I have seen one person energetically tested for Thieves against their various Lyme and coinfections and energetically, it tested as a very solid treatment. I have not tried it yet but it does seem worth a further look.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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BOEJR
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Hi all,

Theives is great for yeast!

If you are really challenged with yeast take a OO vegan cap and place 2 to 5 drops of theives (food grade) essential oil make sure you take a good drink of water prior to taking the cap to wet the throat. Then follow it with pleny of water. If you do this for 2 to 3 days you will clear up yeast in your gut.

Great product! [hi]

take care,

Julia

--------------------
Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen.

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