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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Lumen 90 or Lightworks: what to choose?

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Author Topic: Lumen 90 or Lightworks: what to choose?
Brussels
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Could anyone compare these two instruments?

If money were not an issue, what would you choose?

I am thinking to buy one of them to do some experiences at home for treating candida and other pathogens, and also for detoxying.

I'll use the Bionic with dr. W., and probably with another practioner, but I can't afford to buy it.

I would like to have something at home to treat.

I'm very sensitive to most treatments, so I'm not looking for stronger reactions...

I read most threads on LW, but still found no one using Lumen 90...

thanks for any info!

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lymie_in_md
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I think the reason why no one is using the lumen 90 yet is money. Flat out the cheapest LED is the lightworks 300 dollars versus 850. However the power output based on specifications of the lumen_90 is 100cm2 where the bionic 880 is 80cm2 while the lightworks is 20cm2. I calculated to get the same punch as the bionic 880 using it 1 hour a week would take about 16 hours for the lightworks. If it got enough penetration.

Another way of comparing the lightworks, the lightworks is a flash light compared 4 flood lights. Which one would use to penetrate darkness. Well the lumen_90 is is 6 flood lights. It is more powerful due to the type of LED it uses called SLED or super LED.

We don't know how to compare technologies. It isn't always about the power of the LED. The bionic I'm pretty sure is using a proprietary LED so it may have different chemicals lining the glass in the LED then commercially made LEDs.

The frequencies used are adjustable or programmable. Just ask the manufacturer what frequencies you want. I'm sure they wouldn't charge to much to have them customized to specification.

Hope this helps...

--------------------
Bob

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efsd25
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I tried to get Lumen to reprogram my 90 to the Bionic 880 frequencies. Over the phone they said "OK". But they would not follow-up.....frustrating.

Has anyone had success getting their unit reprogrammed with different frequencies?

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sparkle7
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Bob - re: The bionic I'm pretty sure is using a proprietary LED so it may have different chemicals lining the glass in the LED then commercially made LEDs.

---

How do you know this? There really isn't a whole lot of info from Bionic 880 company about their device... I'm not trying to challenge anyone - it's just that we really don't know.

The guy who designed the LightWorks said he sourced out LEDs that were very similar to the ones that NASA used for it's experiments. Maybe someone could contact him? His name is Russ at SOTA in Canada.

Also - why are their (Bionic 880) frequencies any better than the Nogier ones? Do we have any information about this?

Unless we can find these things out - $300 seems alot better than $7,000... or even $850 for the Lumen...

I'd really appreciate it if someone could definitively post as to why the Bionic is so much more money than other devices. It's not about wrong or right... I just want to know. I'm sure others here do, too.

Sometimes prices for devices are inflated due to the fact that they are for "professional" use. The doctors & practitioners can make their money back from charging for services with the devices. It may not be that they are necessarily more "advanced"...

Also- you may be able to make a custom array from what they sell at Elixa. You can buy a computer disk with frequencies that you may be able to interface with a custom LED array.

http://www.elixa.com/light/arrays.htm
http://www.elixa.com/light/nogier.html

---

In my experience the LightWorks is plenty strong. I don't know if stronger is necessarily better.

There's no real way to compare them unless someone sets up a double blind study comparing the devices. Everyone seems to have a different experience of the infrared light. People seem to have very strong reactions to it no matter which device is used.

The Lumen is closer to the Bionic 880 - so it would be nice to hear about it. I haven't tried it.

I'm not looking to cause a ruckus with this reply... I don't care what people want to use. I just want to know as much info as possible to be able to make decisions about this kind of treatment.

I don't have the money for expensive devices or treatments right now. I may not always be strapped for cash. Things change. I just know there are others like me who are not made of money. There are people out there who are ill & can benefit from a new, alternative therapy.

I'm curious as to why the Bionic is so expensive compared to other devices on the market.

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Brussels
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Bob and Sparkle, thanks for the answers. There was one guy who used the Lumen 90 and said he felt nothing, but he didn't update the thread...

If I understood well, you 2 would then try the Lumen 90 if both cost the same (LW and Lumen)?

What about this Photonic Energetics?

http://www.elixa.com/light/photonic.htm

Could it be better than the Lumen 90?

Thanks again, I'm sort of lost, the Photonic looks better because we could then choose intensity?

Has anyone tried the color pads of LW?

Selma

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bejoy
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Brussels, here is a gut sense answer. This is not a scientific answer, just the sense I get from asking my body.

I think the Lumen devices could be more powerful than the Lightworks for quickly healing from pathogens in combination with nosodes.

However the Nogier frequencies have other very powerful applications that I don't think you get with the Lumen devices. I can tell the difference between the Nogier frequencies and how they affect my body as I change them around.

If I had to get just one device, it would still be the Lightworks for this reason. It is working for me very well with the nosodes. If I could have two devices, I'd keep my Lightworks and get a Lumen (right now!) to find out how much more powerful it is. I am still considering this, and it may still happen.

I am again testing as clear of Lyme, and I am rapidly healing from other infections, despite the recent stress load. I'm also getting rid of a bad fungal skin infection on my feet that has been impossible to make progress on for years (Sanum and Lightworks.) I still use the Lightworks less than a half hour a day.

So considering how sensitive your body is and how similarly we seem to be testing, I would think the Lightworks would probably work well for you.

If you do end up getting the Lumen, I'll be itching to find out how you use it and how well it is working.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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lymie_in_md
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Sparkle when the bionic came out some 9 years back add 3 years to create (just a guess) SLEDs weren't commercially available then and the ouput of the bionic is beyond what was commercially available.

Instead the best commercial LEDs were used in the Lightworks unit at the time, this is no longer the case. Again the best way to get an answer on this is to talk to Ron at LUMEN for the history of LED technology.

To give you the complexity of LED technology check out the following wikpedia link and other links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED

http://wolfstone.halloweenhost.com/Lighting/litled_LightEmittingDiodes.html#History

http://www.powertechnology.com/sleds.asp

"Let there be light" ... gee I wonder who said that? [lol]

--------------------
Bob

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Brussels
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Photonic Energetics PE-1 Product Key Features

140 superluminous LEDs - high density, high power array
5 wavelengths - far red through infrared spectrum
Pulse and direct mode selectable
10 selectable bio-resonant Nogier derived pulse frequencies
Auto sequence random frequency select mode


The Photonic PE-1 LED array has 140 high power LEDs with approximately 1100 milliwatts radiated output power over a surface area of 8.5 sq. in. (55 sq. cm). This is equivalent to 1.1 joules per second fluence rate from the overall surface of the of the array.

112 near infrared LEDs (invisible)
(56) 940 nm
(36) 880 nm
(20) 875 nm

28 red/far red LEDs (visible)
(20) 655 nm
(8) 680 nm

---------
Bejoy, thanks for the tips... Yes, I am sensitive to most treatments.

I am having good results with Sanum, but just thinking I need something faster as I'm fed up to be whole months on treatment... My borrelia is also dormant for a couple of months...

But the different strains of candida/ mycobacteria still keep coming back... Just thinking if there's a faster way before I get to try the Bionic...

I'm wondering if this Photonics above wouldn't be like both LW AND Lumen 90 at the same time. The price corresponds (1100 dollars: 350 + 850...).

It has Nogier frequencies, uses SLEDS... I wonder if penetration is as good as the Lumen...

If you'd like to make your Sanum products last forever, just send me a PM, or else, most products have to be thrown out after 2 months....

Are these the nosodes you are using with LW, I mean, the D3 or D6 Sanum dilutions? Thanks again.

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sparkle7
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Thanks for the info Bob- I will look it over later.

Just so you know - The Lumen 90 does use the Nogier frequencies!

http://www.fitnessmart.com/fitshopr/products/22770.htm

There's also another Lumen product with more LEDs which is larger. I forgot how many LEDs it has, though. (I just found out it has 264 & I think it's supposed to be more powerful than the 90.)

-----

A new modality in Physical Therapy...

The Lumen 90TM utilizes state-of-the-art technology to help activate the natural healing processes in the body. Super-luminous light emitting diodes (LED's) produce photons at different wavelengths in the near-infrared/visible red spectrums. The FDA has approved this powerful, conveniently-sized device for:

* Increased local circulation

* Reduction of pain

* Improved range of motion

* Muscle relaxation



More power for less money...

The Lumen 90TM application pad measures 4" x 8" and contains 90 LEDs -- fifty 200 mW IR(infrared) with an emission wavelength of 880nm and forty 3000mc SLDs(superluminous leds) with an emission wavelength of 650nm. The total average output is approximately 6.25 watts (maximal output power for minimal treatment times -- competitors often hide/inflate specs).

The controller pulses the LEDs at tissue specific frequencies as determined in the mid 1970s by a medical team headed by Dr. Paul Nogier. (The settings are used also in TENS units.) By pulsing at the specific frequencies of ectodermal, endodermal, and mesodermal tissues, we believe that the powerful Lumen 90TM heals faster while minimizing pain.

What Does Light Therapy Do?
* Increases the formation of capillaries, which speed up the healing process with more oxygen and nutrients.

* Stimulates the production of collagen, which is essential for repairing damaged tissue.

* Stimulates the release of adenosine tri-phosphate (ATP) which increases the energy level in the cells -- promotes faster nutrient uptake & waste product removal

* Increases lymphatic system activity.

* Stimulates fibroblastic activity.

* Raises the temperature of the cells even though there is no heat produced from the diodes themselves.

Model 22770 Lumen 90TM...shipping weight 4 lbs.....$785.00

------
Lumen 264 -

Product Features

Size: Lumen Photon - 264

Light therapy lumen photon therapy products use safe, super-luminous light emitting diodes (LED's) to produce photons at different wavelengths in the near-infrared/visible red spectrums.

Pad Sizes - 7 1/2" x 14 1/2"

No.of LEDS: 144 Infrared LEDs @880nm wavelength,
approximately 100 mw output each diode and 120 Visible Red LEDs @650nm wavelength, approximately 50mw output each diode, Totally 15000 mw output (approximately)

Power density Aapprox. 100mW per square cm.

Optical power [email protected] 880 nm and 2000 mc (millicandles) @ 650 nm

-

It's about $1500

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bejoy
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Brussels, I am using Pleo Muc Race 5x in combination with Lightworks. Why this dilution? A practitioner gave it to me. I'm not experienced with Sanum yet. I would like to know more about how to keep the product potent for longer.

Keep going with this Biophoton info and discussion, please. I like the results of my Lightworks so much, for myself, and for others I am working with. If there is an even better product, I think I will consider purchasing and doing a comparison.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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lymie_in_md
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Just to keep thread going.

I've gotten well enough so I just don't need the LEDs anymore and I haven't used them for over a week. The only supplements I'm taking is fish oil and innulin. The rest is diet which has no restriction anymore. So if that cheese cake is something I just have to have, I no longer deny myself. I still have some nagging symptoms so I'm making no declaration yet.

--------------------
Bob

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liesandmorelies
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The Lightworks is causing something to happen in my body.

I am either having die-off or herx reactions. So, I do believe the Lightworks based on "My" situation is strong enough to be doing something.

I can't say at this point if it will be enough to make me well as it is too early on, but it is definitely doing something in my body based on the reactions I am acheiving.

Elizabeth

--------------------
aka: Lyme Warrior

In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.

Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!

"Just Demand your Rights"

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Brussels
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Sparkle, thanks again.

Bejoy, that is the dilution that Sanum work with (sometimes they use D3, D5, D6 or D9). Good to know you think they work with LW.

I'm currently treating Mucor mucedo (not mucor racemosus), luetic toxins (with Sanukehl E, whatver this means...), bacterium pnenumoniae, diplococcus pneumoniae antibodies, mycobacterium bovis and guess what showed again? Candida parapsilosis, not symptomatic yet, only appeared as 'waking up' in the GI tract.

Bob, congrats again! I hope you won't have to treat other stuff like I am having to, after borrelia left. It left, but then the 'environment' is open to all other critters, so I'm on the peeling the onion thing.

I also have the impression, the more I treat, the more my body shows what it didn't show before. I have the impression I am living childhood problems again (like muscle pains I got while I got any type of cold, these disappeared in the last 20 years, and came back again WITHOUT the cold, only after treating all these tuberculosis and pneumonia remedies....).

I am having some 'intuition' for some time that I need a boost of treatment with light devices. I won't drop my appointment with dr. W., but I would like to have something at home to help. Also, something to help treat an infection such as TBE like I had to deal with, with my daughter.

I'll drop you an email asking you a favor for me ... [Wink]

I start to wonder if in fact, the most flexible of all these devices wouldn't be the Photonics Sparkle posted about, as one can control intensity. I'm not talking only about lyme treatment as, for me too, lyme is not an issue for the momnent.

What do you all think about Photonics (not talking about the price, only performance...).

Any hint?
Thanks again.

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lymie_in_md
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I'll take a look at the photoniks, Selma. I don't know too much about it. [Smile]

--------------------
Bob

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bejoy
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Bob, any report on what you think of the photonics? I'm grateful for the research and calculations you have put into evaluating these products. I'm looking forward to the possibility of purchasing a stronger unit and running a comparison.

One bonus in my mind of using one of these devices over the Bionic 880 in the US is that they are not technically "medical devices."

A doctor could probably use one in practice as a "meditation or relaxation aid" without dealing with importing a non-FDA approved device for medical purposes, as long as no medical claims are made, and as long as waivers for "alternative therapies" are signed.

I can only imagine what a US doc is in for by trying to use the Bionic to treat lyme, no matter how effective the therapy is. Actually, the better it works, the more trouble possible.

Sign me up for the highest powered fad with the most bells and whistles, at the best bargain price.

--------------------
bejoy!

"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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sparkle7
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Yes there are benefits of going "under the radar"... so to speak.

Thanks for the info!

Good for your Bob!

Selma- the guy at Elixa is very nice & answered many questions I had.

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Brussels
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I got a very interesting answer from the Photonic people. If anyone is interested, send me a PM.
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Brussels
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These are some of the answers the people from Photonic Energetics sent me.

I'll try to contact now the Lumen people to see.

------
brussels - Can I only use each of the wavelengths, example, only 880 nm, or only 650 nm at each time or do I get all of the 5 wavelenghts at once? Where do I set that up?



ANSWER:

The array panel and control circuitry is configured for all 5 wavelength LEDs to be active at all times. The array is organized so that the placement of the various wavelength LEDs in the array are interleaved to provide a synergistic effect. This has proven to be a very effective method to enhance the performance of the array to produce favorable results.



brussels - if I get all 5 wavelenghts at once, then the way to use the Photonic would be simply: choose one Nogier frequency at one intensity and apply? So it means, I have to choose among the 10 Nogier only (and not have to choose which wavelengths to treat?) So I would have 10 possibilities for treatment, and not 10 X 5 wavelengths for each wavelength, right?



ANSWER:

All of the LEDs on the PE-1 array are continuously in operation. This means that all LED wavelengths are always operating and individual wavelength LEDs cannot be separately switched on and off. The complete array is operating under the user controls as described as follows:



The PE-1 is organized to provide the user with selection of both the Frequency and Intensity of the array output. The Frequency control allows selection of one of nine individual Nogier frequencies and also a mode where the unit automatically switches to one of eight Nogier frequencies in a randomized sequence every 7 seconds.

The frequency select switch is a rotary switch on the front panel. The Intensity control also located on the front panel and allows the user to control the intensity of the output of the array in 10 incremental steps of 10% increase per step.

This provides a range of control of the output level from 10% to 100%. A side panel slide switch allows the user to quickly switch between the Pulsed Mode and the Direct (continuous non-pulsed) Mode. The intensity control is always functioning in both the Pulsed and Direct Modes.

[ 14. December 2008, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Brussels ]

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Brussels
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I think I'm going to try Photonic Energetics PE1, so far it looks the best quality-price. They have a return policy in case customers are not satisfied.

Same for the Lumen products, it seems.

The combination of LEDs with different wavelenghts looks interesting in the Photonic PE1.

If anyone would like to try it, I would be very interested in listening about your results. You can PM me please, if you don't want to post here.

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maureen2174
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Did you order this yet? thanks, maureen
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I have been researching Bionic 880 and photon therapy from the very begining and I am in the process of building similar unit for myself (thanks to my M.Sc. in electronic engineering:-)

I doubt Bionic 880 uses some proprietary LEDs and even so, the difference between these and commercially available ones, given the same power and wavelength is rather negligible. (Although I have not put my hands and instruments on the Bionic unit yet:)

As to other instruments:

Lightworks is less powerfull (than Bionic 880)and uses different modulating frequencies (Nogier). Less powerful does not necessarily mean worse as to photon therapy seems to work best at certain range of power/application time and not below and not above that range. To certain extent you can compensate for less power by increasing application time.

Photonics (mentioned by Brussels) - uses different wavelenghts at once. No one knows if this is beneficial. Reading some advanced Russian studies on LED treatment, I found however, that different wavelengths used at once or in sequence, one just after another, sometimes tend to cancel out the effect. They suggest that best results have been obtained using monochromatic light (only one wavelength). The whole field is so young however that nothing is sure.

As to modulating frequencies: Lightworks and Photonic use Nogier, where Bionic 880 uses 7.83Hz for Lyme treatment (and other ones are also available). This particular frequency is known as Schumann Resonance frequency or Earth frequency (I do not go into details here - you can search that) and is reported to have healing properties for a long time. I remember one particular study I read, using portable electric field generator with that frequency with people with CFIDS - great majority have felt improvement and did not want to give back their devices:-)

Considering cost of Bionic 880, one has to take into account a few things:
1. The device has passed EU medical certification - it costs a lot, I mean A LOT,
2. There are relatively few units produced so costs do not spread,
3. There were probably years of R&D work put in the device construction, tests and so for - they want to compensate for that.
4. Bionic 880 is very user friendly - it is designed to be operated by people who do not know anything about the technology - I mean doctors:-) It costs a lot to "protect" device from user ignorance:-) Nice design and touch screen also add up.

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lymie_in_md
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Good analysis Paulito11! I've guessed the bionic used a proprietary the LED. It is based on the time line when the unit was created. Prior to SLEDs I mean. But it is a guess! Both photonic and lumen seems to have higher output potential then the bionic.

As far as multiple frequencies, well what about sunshine, our natural method of gaining photons.

I haven't found anything which describes what frequencies are the most advantageous. Hopefully there will be greater research into this area.

--------------------
Bob

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Annxyz
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Paulito,
THANK YOU ! This is helpful and we hope you will come back and paraphrase antything else that can help us as we struggle. Nice to have a science brain at work in our midst !

--------------------
ANNXYZ

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Clancy
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Just my 2 cents regarding the lumen. We purchased one several years ago, and are under utilizing it.

There is a frequency that is used for teeth and jaw issues. I had used it many times on my jaw without noticing anything negative, just my teeth feeling better. However, over a year ago, a used it with a proprietary blend of Chinese herbs that is used for tooth infections.

That time, I got a very strong reaction - extreme sore throat and neck pain. (This was before knowing anything about the bionic and the protocols of using nosodes and light, etc.).

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paulito11
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quote:
Originally posted by lymie_in_md:
As far as multiple frequencies, well what about sunshine, our natural method of gaining photons.

I have been asking myself the very same question:-)

From my research it seems however that there is more potential in single wavelenght stimulation. If not, we will not be using LED devices but some lamps which have light spectrum similar to sun. There are such lamps for treating depression but show limited results. Again the whole field of LED/photon therapy is still very much work in progress so questions are encouraged and answers are limited :-)

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lymie_in_md
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Paulito -- what is your view from your research into LED penetration into the human body. Especially compared with light works not using SLEDs and whatever the bionic is using. It is fundemental to the overall issue. If LED light is penetrating only a few centimeters versus a couple of inches. Does the wavelength matter in penetration?

I agree with the prior comment about getting better technical information.

--------------------
Bob

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quote:
Originally posted by lymie_in_md:
Paulito -- what is your view from your research into LED penetration into the human body. Especially compared with light works not using SLEDs and whatever the bionic is using. It is fundemental to the overall issue. If LED light is penetrating only a few centimeters versus a couple of inches. Does the wavelength matter in penetration?

First of all, I do not think Bionic uses SLEDs. Simply because power density listed in all available materials is easily achievable with commercially available high output LED's. The number of LEDs, area of the head of Bionic and power density taken together and calculated clearly fit to high output LEDs which are commercially available and cost around $0.50-1.00 each in small quantities. Also if you take good photos of Bionic instrument and zoom them enough, you will see standard 3mm LEDs. SLEDs look quite different and take a lot more space so the unit head with the same number of SLEDs will be much larger.

Regarding depth of tissue penetration - the answer is a bit complicated:-)
There are two mechanism to be considered:

1. Depth of penetration in classic sense - this depends on wavelength, energy density, time of application and (greatly) on tissue (skin and deeper) properties. For example if someone has dark skin, one may need much more power to achieve the same effect. There are many variables. I have some detailed data on this somewhere...

And yes, the depth depends on wavelength but the relation is different for different tissue materials. All in all, if you want to go deeper for given device and skin, you have to lengthen the application time. The limit, on the other end is, however, burning your skin, so in reality about 0.5-1 inch depth seems to be a limit.

2. Quantum effect based penetration - not going into details of quantum physics - those effects can penetrate much, much deeper. According to prof. Popp - even through the whole body and beyond (You can literally shine with photons energized by your LED device:-) These are actions which are very weak in classic sense but seems to have tremendous energetic effect on living organism functions (like homeopathy for example).

No one yet managed to clearly explain actions of LED device photons on living organisms. There are a few models proposed but no one is good enough to explain all what have been observed in experiments:-)

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lymie_in_md
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Great explanation Paulito thankyou.

If I can indulge in one more set of questions: From all I've read so far 880nm stimulates ATP, but so does 660nm. Then there is the light helmet used in the UK for Alzheimers using 1072. Does the frequency matter in a quantum model and how it stimulates ATP as long as it is NIR? If frequency does matter, the longer the frequency is it possible the better the affect?

I'm guessing researchers are trying to figure this all out. I was especially curious in the range of 1280 and 1500nm if you could get these custom made, which you can.

--------------------
Bob

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Brussels
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Paulito, thanks for your opinion.

The PE-1 uses lower frequencies DIFFERENT from Nogier (so additional frequencies) as listed below:

"The PE-1 utilizes 3 additional Nogier frequencies versus the Lightworks unit (they are lower harmonics of the Nogier spectrum and are: 36 Hz, 18 Hz, 9 Hz and 4 Hz). The PE1- does not use the 2,336 Hz frequency, because the lower harmonics were found to have more therapeutic value."

Good point in questioning the use of different wavelengths at once in comparison to one single.

I will buy one PE-1 to test it, there's a return policy in case we are not satisfied. I'm not fighting lyme for the moment though, but loads of other persistent infections (at the moment, still stuck with Mycobacterium tuberculosis bovis and aspergillus niger). I hope to get mine sometime in January and will let you guys know what I think in practical use.

I guess there are two ways to go:
1- go by what's known (Bionic) but spend quite some money (but in my case, as I'm not really treating lyme, I also have doubts if the Bionic will really help me as the other parallel treatments with the Bionic are also very experimental)

2- try something else. I will only do that because I came to trust my own energetic tests, after years using such tests. If I couldn't do energetic tests, I would have no way to really measure if a machine can help me detox and kill pathogens in a month (the trial period).

How could I know if I'm free of mercury etc? Energetic tests are not 100% reliable, but they do give me a good guidance.

I guess that's the only way to really know, is when many people try and use, and report their successes or failures.
-----------

CLANCY, which lumen did you buy, the 90?

Have you adventured to use homeopathics instead of herbs?

Do you think you herxed or you got worse after applying these Chinese herbs?

How did you use these herbs with the Lumen (on the solar plexus, ingested, were them in powder or in alcohol)?

Thanks for any more info. We need to know the info from people like you, I hope you post again.

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Clancy
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Brussels,
We have the lumen 264 and the herbs I used were in powder form. I made a paste, and applied it directly to my gums using small pieces of gauze. No, I did not ingest them.

My doctor thinks I downloaded a lot of anaerobic bacteria. It was good that I got rid of them, but I did it the hard way! It's interesting, without any herbs, I can use the lumen for 30 min. and with them, I'm to only do it for 45 seconds. I, also, used the herbs without the lumen at first, and didn't have any 'herx' type of reaction.

I plan on trying the herbs again, and this time for the 45 seconds. Still haven't tried homeopathics with the lumen.

Hope this helps.

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GiGi
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Brussels,

quote:
as the other parallel treatments with the Bionic are also very experimental)

I don't find that to be the case at all, if, repeat if you are treating the right thing. What is surprising to me how many pathogens and problems I had not ever thought of need to be treated. And what is even more surprising to me is toward how many of them we have developed an allergic reaction, usually an emotional allergy, not a biochemical or immunological allergy!

Picking the treatment that is most dominant and determining if there is an allergy involved is the key. Then they can readily be treated and cleared with the Bionic. Unless I treat the allergy also, I cannot clear the pathogen or toxin. The body will not let go.

The only remaining step is to make sure enough binding agents are on board, unless you want to meet the same neurotoxins again and again.

Take care.

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R62
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quote:
Originally posted by GiGi:
Brussels,

quote:
as the other parallel treatments with the Bionic are also very experimental)

I don't find that to be the case at all, if, repeat if you are treating the right thing. What is surprising to me how many pathogens and problems I had not ever thought of need to be treated. And what is even more surprising to me is toward how many of them we have developed an allergic reaction, usually an emotional allergy, not a biochemical or immunological allergy!

Picking the treatment that is most dominant and determining if there is an allergy involved is the key. Then they can readily be treated and cleared with the Bionic. Unless I treat the allergy also, I cannot clear the pathogen or toxin. The body will not let go.

The only remaining step is to make sure enough binding agents are on board, unless you want to meet the same neurotoxins again and again.

Take care.

Gigi, please explain about the allergy angle here. How do we develop allergies to the pathogens or toxins and how do we know if we have? How does the Bionic treat that? Thank you. Robin
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sparkle7
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Looks like a good choice Selma! Let us know how you do with it & how you use it.

I think you only get the Nogier pulses with the Photonic Energetics PE1,. It doesn't look like you can program it to the ones the Bionic uses. I'm not sure if this will make a difference.

Go slow. The infared light is strong stuff! It feels good at first but it can pack a strong punch with continued use.

I'm also looking into pulsed electro magnetic fields. There's lots of good research about that, too! This device seems like it may be worthwhile - EM-pulse TRILOGY

I read an article that says it's very good to combine the PEMFs with light!

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Energy2Heal
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Gigi said:
quote:
Picking the treatment that is most dominant and determining if there is an allergy involved is the key. Then they can readily be treated and cleared with the Bionic. Unless I treat the allergy also, I cannot clear the pathogen or toxin. The body will not let go.
Gigi, this sounds like an important discovery. Could you explain a little more? Are you referring to an allergy to the pathogen you are also treating the normal way with the Bionic? If so, how do you go about treating the allergy? And how do you test for the allergy?

Thanks,

- Andrew

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Brussels
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Pulling this thread up. It was BEFORE I decided which to buy.

I chose the PE1 in the end.

This thread shows the differences between some devices I was researching at that time.

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