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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Herxing and Nut food Question?

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Author Topic: Herxing and Nut food Question?
Silverwolf
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Could certain foods such as Nuts cause a herx reaction, because the body is depleted in some of the minerals and vitamins that naturally occur in them?

TxCoord ,loves mixed nuts [we've already both stopped eating peanuts except for very rare instances]...everytime he has more than a few he gets upset stomach, and often diahreah.

His Arthritis seems to worsen, his fatigue goes off the charts.

Some companies use a variety of oil mixes when they roast the nuts...so I don't know? Herx? Developing Allergy?

Any tho'ts or ideas?

Thanks from Silverwolf

[ 21. December 2008, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Silverwolf ]

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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Tincup
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Hey hey...

Nuts shouldn't cause a herx reaction.. or many of us would be herxing all the time. I know I would, for sure.

I know one girl who has eaten several jars of cashews all by herself... in one sitting I believe... and she doesn't herx from them. Not sharing, perhaps she should, but no such luck.

[Big Grin]

If you have reactions after eating.. and it can be to ANY foods you eat regularly...

Check out Leaky Gut Syndrome.

You may have developed an allergy to certain foods.. hence the reaction.

Also yeast could go up... and/or .. I hate to say it but someone has to...

Perhaps you are just nuts?

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
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DebAz
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Nuts are a Huge source of Arginine and My doc alrerted me to stop any foods that are high in Arginine and also take L Lysine that opposes it.. and that is his finding that it worsens the bacterial cause of many illnesses as well not to take magnesium or do epson salt baths etc.

Those are the only two items he said to stay away from and work on not ingesting due to the fact that it has been proven and shown in his studies to worsen your condition and symptoms .


That might be what is happening.

Just an option.. If you look up foods that have Argnine in it you will find the Nuts listed and chocolate and others..The concept being that our livers are already producing too much of it in some people.. There is supposed to be a test out for this sometime in the future as they have found this connection in our illnesses.

Here is a list.

Food Sources. Dietary arginine is found in chocolate, wheat germ and flour, buckwheat, granola, oatmeal, dairy products (cottage cheese, ricotta, nonfat dry milk, skim yogurt), beef (roasts, steaks), pork (Canadian bacon, ham), nuts (coconut, pecans, cashews, walnuts, almonds, Brazil nuts, hazel nuts, peanuts), seeds (pumpkin, sesame, sunflower), poultry (chicken and turkey light meat), wild game (pheasant, quail), seafood (halibut, lobster, salmon, shrimp, snails, tuna in water), chick peas, and cooked soybeans. [2, 11]

Ironically I was eating a lot of soy beans cooked.. and then as well I was eating some bits of chocolate ... .. dark and no sugars.. but chocolate. And now I am stopping that.. And I was taking epson salt baths and even magnesium in some of the supplements.. and working on taking those down.. And adding 2 grams of L Lysine.

All per doctors orders.

Not just something I made up or researched and choose to do.
Theese are the items he asked of me and he does not ask much in the world of alternatives and such and actually says to do the least you can of extras.

The only other thing he does supplement in the form of a prescription is D3 supplementation ...

And he will talk about diet and the affects of certain items on the health of those of us working on erradicating these infections..

I do not know if this will help. or not.
But there is what I first thought of.. when I read your post.

God Bless and Good health
D

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Lymetoo
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Peanuts can cause pain in sensitive people. I'm sensitive to all nightshades, such as peanuts, tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, and peppers.

Removing peanuts from a mix won't help because there is peanut oil in the mix.

Hope this helps!

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Silverwolf
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<<<<< Tincup,DebAz,and Lymetoo >>>>>,

Thanks for the tho'ts and input !

Neither TxCoord or myself seem to be able to eat much peanuts anymore. And I did wonder about the nut mixes w/o peanuts.

As certain companies do still use the peanut oil,often w/ cottonseed oil,don't think that is very good for us either.

The Arginines list was interseting as well. I am seriously allergic to oats...and have gluten issues as well. And each time we have more than a few potatoes we have grumpy gut,and the tired wearys as well.

It is getting difficult to find things we can eat. I know nightshades are not good for Arthritis [dad can't eat a lot of things any more cause they flare his Arthritis,and TxCoord is finding out the same thing].

I have to have some protiens because of the daibetes issue now,and am trying to find things that wont set of the IBS issues [I have heard IBS is leaky gut Syndrome?].

And then too,we are a "couplanuts" [Big Grin] [Big Grin] !!!

I keep sayin' I'm gonna go on the 'Nirvana Diet' you ,know drained greenbeans and filtered water...LOL... Ah well...I'll find something we can eat...sooner or later.

My Bro' was mentioning Quinoa [sp?] as a possible helpful food. May try that,when the snow storming calms down. It a bit messy just now outside...

Thanks again from Silverwolf!

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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bettyg
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bonny,

we LOVE our mixed nuts and buy the BIG can with NO peanuts in; `1 per week!


after reading the list of foods w/that 1 thing in; i wouldn't be eating much at all!!! it's foods i crave. [Wink]

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Silverwolf
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Heylo <<<<< bettyg >>>>>,

Yep with that list of arginie stuff,it doesn't leave much does it?!!!

But who wants the ammonia ? build up or what ever it does ? !!

So I'm gonna fine tune my diet some more,a sweet angel sent me some D-3 among other supplements,and I got the L-Lysine last week.

That is quite the list... some of it I don't have much choice,if I want to eat. But at least I can trim back more now that I know.

Uh yeah Nirvana diet here we come... green- beans an' water ...

Yeah I'm wastin' away in green-a-bean-a-ville lookin' for supplements w/o magnesium....

Lotta people say that Lyme and Co.' is ta blame... da da da da...wastin' away...

Well I do want to lose more weight, and it is good to know some more things to be aware of!

Thanks again to each one who has replied!

I'll be back later, I do want to copy that list down,and see if I can't get less Arginine ,but still have something I can eat,and that TxCoord can eat w/o tearing up our poor tummy guts.

It's just that Disappearing Bonny-Bunny-Bear-Lamb-y-Lion Silverwolf [I must reduce...er... so my name will get longer LOL... [Big Grin]

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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DebAz
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I am a bit lucky in I had already done some food allery testing and I had already stopped all dairy and grains (except brown rice) and all meat except a bit of fish and chicken. I do lots of stir fries and salads and such. It is hard.. I had not known about Arginine connection that much until this last month and I have been trying to fine tune myself and stop magnesium supplements and epson salt baths etc and jus changing to pure salts.

Its tough but I can say I feel better when I stick to the diet.. big time. So much that well I have become even a bit ultra sensitive and when I mess up I am sick feeling all night long etc.

My mother has cancer and has been on the macrobiotic diet for years and I learned a lot from her and its interesting how this matches a lot of what they do too and she has halted the progression of her cancer. Its pretty amzaing. She does other things but no chemo or radiation either.

Anyway.. let me know how your doing on it? I would be curious to know if you notice any changes or feel differently.

It can be subtle at first and then you will see more and more progress slowly and then.. you look back and realize. Wow.. It sure has helped.

I would like to and am goling to study more the science around the arginine issue and .. if I find some info that might help us make more sense of it I will post it.

For me reading and knowing the why part sure helps when you are having to make changes and then you know what your doing it for and can visualize it and it all makes more sense.

The testing will help too so we know where we are.

On the vitamin D3 my doctor tests me every couple of months and it sure feels good to see that what I am taking it going where he wants it to be...

So that helps me...

Take care

D

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DebAz
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PS

I forgot to ask my doctor about the almond milk I drink since he said no nuts at all.. and no soy... (cooked beans). I wonder if that rules out Soy Milk.

My other doc told me not to do too much soy anyway so that is why I went to Almond milk to give me a substitue for Dairy.

I do not drink that much of it so it would not be the end of the world to delete that but.. I it just dawned on me that it might be an issue with the argnine..

We can not be perfect .. but we can reduce... that is true.

I rarely eat meat and was brought up a vegan. . so that makes the meat issue easy for me too.

I guess I can thank my parents now. I used to be so upset by that.. And i was brought up on eating off the land and all organics and such.

But I am still sick?/ Hmmm Also though there was a nuclear plant within about 40miles of my house..Some think I was affected by that and I traveled as a child visiting my father in
Maine. NH. Vermont. Mass and.. we think I was getting bit up there .. I was a sick teenager and started all the list of infections with pnemonia and mono and lung infections and flues and strep over and over.. all before I was 18... And well.. the story goes on and on. And here I am.. Still fighting off stuff.

I think as well there is a gentic element and my grandmother and mother strugled with many diseaes and CFS and FMS on top of cancler and artritis and diebetes and heart problems...

I am nervous with all the family history but I do the best I can.

THANks for listening. I guess I started to ramble..

see you later.

And please keep in touch.
D

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Silverwolf
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<<<<< DebAz >>>>>, Hi there, thanks for the replies...you mostly answerd a question I had put up for you on the General Support board.

Gotta go do some laundry chores,but I copied off that list of Arginine rich foods.

At the moment,I cannot get all of them out of my diet...but as we use up and buy things,I'll have a better idea of what to look for, and what to stay away from whenever possible.

I'll see how it goes...and hope that TxCoord and I can replaxe some of the items , w/ non Arginine type foods.

Wow,I don't know what to do on the Magnesium...its in just about everything,that I have to use... OY... well I'll be searching...

Deb, I hear ya about genetics,and things like "downwinders syndrome..[I think thats how it's called?].

Somewhere on here I started rehashing and updating about my familys odd health issues...

Well It's Silverwolf off to Laundry Diva Duties BBL!

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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DebAz
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Hi again

well the L arginine has some conflicting type information out there.. I have been reading and.. here below found the two things that are considerations..

FIRST - I found is why my doc says do not take it or eat it and even take the L lysine the counteracts the L arginine.

Safety Notes: Arginine can enhance the growth of herpes viruses and pseudomonas bacteria. Anyone with herpes infections of the brain or eye or with any serious pseudomonas infection should never use arginine. Anyone with other latent or active herpes infections should use arginine only with extreme caution. Although arginine can promote the growth of these two infections, arginine also enhances the immune system, so the end result of arginine use can be positive or negative.

Arginine should not be used by diabetics (unless under very close medical supervision) because of its insulin-blocking effects.

THEN Here is another article and I found that is a bit contradictory but as well I have to trust my doctor feels that in the case of the bacterias he is seeing that we should stay away.
Interesting though to say the least...

Immune Strength

One of the key players in your response to nearly every infectious disease is the macrophage. Macrophages are white blood cells that hunt down and destroy infectious agents such as bacteria, viruses, fungi, and other parasites. A potent weapon of this key player is nitric oxide. The nitric oxide that your macrophages produce is the same nitric oxide that you hear about on the news that is a dangerous air pollutant. When used under the tight control of your macrophages, though, nitric oxide is one of your best allies against infectious predators.

How do you increase nitric oxide? The only natural source in your diet is the amino acid, L-Arginine. As a boost to your immune system, L-Arginine is often beneficial when given in fairly large doses, one gram to as much as several grams per day. Marc Brackin, Ph.D., believes that L-Arginine and a closely related compound, OKG, are also among the best liver detoxifiers available.

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DebAz
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Hi again

I read you have diabetes and did you read how it said arginine is not good for diabetics as well.

Regarding your question about Ammonia.
It is not that the L Arginine creats ammonia increase..On the contrary I have read it can help inhibit it. But from what I understand the negatives of the arginine being something that bacterias and virus need to grow as well as the below article make it something my doctor recommends to limit.
But this is just from what I am told. He also says to not take magnesium and to supplement with D3.

But there are doctors who say the opposite or have opposite and contradicting information and protocols. This I did notice on some of the Lyme Protocols like Marshall Protocol ... and such.

So I guess we have to sort though it and do what we feel might makes sense to us.> It can be very difficult to do so...


Dietary Worsening of Lyme Symptoms

High-protein foods, such as grains and meat, contain an amino-acid (the breakdown unit of protein) called L-arginine. L-arginine in foods and as a nutritional supplement should not be taken in the presence of ammonia. Research reveals that ammonia + arginine + manganese = increased nitric oxide (NO), up to 53% in astrocytes (brain cells), leading to increased brain swelling. When you increase localized brain swelling, the symptoms increase dramatically, and the perception of fatigue can escalate to critical. Armed with this knowledge, health care professionals would be wise to instigate a protein-poor diet for Lyme patients during treatment to minimize aggravations from arginine. Another way in which diet can be used to combat the effects of arginine is to eat foods high in the amino-acid L-Lysine, such as legumes, or one can easily purchase L-Lysine as a nutritional supplement from a health food store.


Here is the link to more .. and it is from this article I got the above

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_285/ai_n19170382/pg_5

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DebAz
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The mineral molybdenum, available in capsule form, can dramatically aid in the detoxification of the toxins caused by the dysfunction of multiple tissues in chronic illness.


This is on that same site and i am going to look into this as well as I feel a lot of my herxing problems are related to the toxins from the bacterias and from the die off of the extra bacterias.


Hope I did not end up confusing you!!

D

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DebAz
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One More


Ammonia and Lyme

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DebAz
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Sorry for all the posts.

But hey.. Here is a list of food with the actual content of how much arginine is in each food.. That should help even more with shopping.

The nuts are all on the top of the list.

This one is helping me too.

Deb


Amounts of Arginine in each food on the list!!

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Silverwolf
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Hi there <<<<< DebAz >>>>>,

Its cool!!! No problem as to the replies!!!

Now the last one on how much Arginine...will give us a chance to experiment a little!

Since each of us is simular,but each of us has differences w/in our systems,and because Lyme and Co.' can affect everyone differently...w/ the 'How much' one can somewhat trace what might be a problem issue!!!

[don't ask me to repeat that...I can't LOL [Big Grin] ] !

I'm thinking along the lines of, lastnight I got 'Arginine abdominal -flu-' from a delightful tomato sauce based food w/ Steak pieces and veggies.

Unfortunetly I really did have an issue...no joke [Frown] ... TxCoord gets it if he has more than a tiny amout of nuts.ANd here we come Immodium...

Sooo,if one needs more Arginine,they'd know what to loo for,if it needs to be reduced or cut out completely this'll help!!!

I greatly appreciate the time you took to find these links...gonna bookmark 'em!!!

The Silverwolf here!

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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Silverwolf
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Weeeelll...I was gonna bookmark...good Ol' local ISP isn't letting me in to the link at the moment...blast and drat...try again in a bit.

I tried again...I can get into others but not this List right now...that is so ridiculous... if it goes in once it should open the link again in a bit...

Its Inksasperating... [confused] [bonk] MAybe in a couple of hours??

Oeydokey..it hasn't been two hours...but I finally got it to go in sos's I could get the link into faves... beginnin to wonder if our computer has it's own form of 'Lyme-slyme' or something...Uh...helloo computer Dr...

I'll BBL ...

Silverwolf signin' Out for a bit...

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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Dayle Ann
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Deb, believe your LLMD. Sad to say, many articles on CFS sites are based on speculation and misinformation. If they do not include reliable references for where the information came from, be leery of accepting them at face value.

Silverwolf: About peanuts-- people have suggested several possibilities. Any of them could be right for some people. Herx is not one of them, though!

For me, it is as simple as this: I cannot digest peanuts because I lack an enzyme to do this. Peanuts are not nuts: they are a legume, related to peas. I also cannot digest soy, which are also legumes related to peanuts. However, I do fine with other kinds of nuts and beans and eat them regularly. Incidently, I am also intolerant to lactose (milk sugar) and to any member of the cabbage family, for the same reason: I lack the enzymes to digest the sugars in those foods.

I suspect that the reason for this particular combination is because I am mixed blood Native American and none of these foods were part of our diet until Europeans introduced them. But a lot of Europeans, especially southern, also have these kinds of intolerants. Other people have other intolerances, simply based on lack of enzymes, which can vary from cultural group and from individual to individual. Many people in my family have the same intolerances, others have some, and a few have none of them. The older you get, the more these intolerances seem to manifest themselves.

This may or may not be what is going on in the situation you describe, but your description of the results of imbibing peanuts sure does sound a lot like my own experience! You might consider talking to an allegist just to check things out.

Dayle Ann

--------------------
..." ...almost basically together situation."
unknown quote from somewhere


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Silverwolf
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Hi There <<<<< Dayle Ann >>>>>,

Thanks for the input... you may be on to something as far as the enzyme and our Ancestry.

TxCoord and myself are both part Native American Indian ,and an interesting American Standard mix...of the various European tribes as well.

We had read a bit,about diet and where ones ancestors may be from.It might be time to check more into this... perhaps we are missing the proper enzymes for some of the various foods.

Then if Arginine or anything else gets out of balance w/ the various Bacterial problems from Lyme and Co. and any viruses..well it'd get to be a real mess.

I felt so bad for TxC' we he came in from his work shift a hurtin' and feelin nauseated... then I had the abdominal ick, after the Tomato sauce based meal I had yesterday.

It definetly bears looking into as far as Allergists and such...

But now after eating 'grits' this AM...I almost went to the hopsital...my chest felt like someone kicked me...then after a bit I burped ...more a belch... I had been taking a brief nap,and woke up w/ this awful pain...so digestion wise something isn't working properly.

Beginning to wonder just what is safe for me to eat... OY!!!

Silverwolf of tender chest muscles and tummy

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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DebAz
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hi.. i feel your frustration.

I wanted to tell you that grains are a tough one to find replacements. I buy Spelt breads.. And millet is goof for using instead of rice or pasta and such.

It takes some adjusting for sure..

But it is worth it..

it a lot of work.. I have done extenseive allergy testing.
IT is weird.

My first round of tests showed I was allergic to near the whole list of a basic 30 foods.. So i told my doc.. What can i eat>

She recmmended further testing.. I did that about two months after eliminating the whole list!! it was huge

On the second test.. it showed I was not allergic to anything.

her only explaination was that I already cleared out and densensitized myself?

I dont know if I know for sure .. what happened.

I know that ones you eliminate for long enough.. as far as alergies go.. you can add them back in a certain way.

But that is not my goal in my case..

i want to eat as well and as clean and as strict as I can because it helps with the disease.

Its a tough road

Take care
I hope your doing well

D

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Silverwolf
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<<<<< DebAz and each Replier >>>>>,

Thanks for the info' ,tho'ts and kind words, whenever my addled brain will unfog enough I will be a busy wolf checking and studying on things...

If I can find a few alternative grains that wont turn our abdomens insidiously inside out, and some meats/various protiens that are easy fix w/o excess of Arginie we'll maybe be able to eat.

Things are expensive out here in Semi-rural SE Idaho... There is a Fred Meyer [Kroger Brands] in town, so next time we can be out driving [storms have made conditions bad]

I'll see what I can find that isn't to horrifically spendy, as they do have some gluten free and alternative type food products.

TxCoord is getting frustrated trying to find things we can both eat that wont get us feeling more ill...

Will check badk in Later...

Silverwolf whose sleepy

--------------------
2006,May-August2006 Dx w/ Lyme/Bartonella/White Matter Lesion Disease on Brain.
[ Clinical Dx w/ two positives and several IND's on the tests from Igenex ], Prior Dx of CFIDS/CEBV 1992, and FMS '93-'94
Diabetes*2 Dx 10/'08

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CherylSue
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DEB AZ,

I heard arginine was bad for viruses and to avoid chocolate, nuts, corn, and other high arginine foods, but I hadn't heard that for Lyme.

Chocolate does seem to aggravate my Lyme, so I can attest to that.

However, so many foods including meat??? Even in Dr. B's guidelines he is not so restricting. Is your doctor a naturopath or and LLMD?

Just wondering. It certainly gives one food for thought.

Thanks,
CherylSue

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DebAz
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CherylSue

My doc is a llmd and.. well I am totally really believing him on this land things he tells me to do around supplements and diet.

Because.. well he does not bring up or do much of it as he is studying the infections in the lab.

So his recommendations come from what he is seeing and testing as he does his research..

These specific ones.. are more geared toward the new bug.. and not "lyme". so much from what I am understanding..
and though overall as you said. I know that it is related to viral things as well and.>
I have a nice viral load.

And. I can tell a difference too lately as I have clamped down on the rules and the diet I already had in place.. which was already close..

As far as diet.. No matter what we are fighting we need to go to a whole food diet ...
and take out all white and processed foods.
Take out all dairy
As well I take out grains except brown rice.. and Millet.
And take out all nuts...

So. as you can see. your left with..
Vegetables.. and Fruits ... and I limit fruits too.
Lots of veggies and things like stir fry dishes.. ..
ANd.. soups... I make home made.

As far as meat. I keep it simple. Chicken or fish.
And I do not eat much of it.

I do eat beans too.. such as kidney or pinto..
And do allow myself sometimes corn tortillas.. and
such sO I can eat some mexican type foods.

So.. well.. thats it..

Yes I do cheat ..,.. once in awhile.

Deb

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