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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Babs Primaquine treatment--Up date -

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Author Topic: Babs Primaquine treatment--Up date -
groovy2
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Hi All--

Well I went 30 days with out taking any Primaquine-
on Day 31 I felt a few babs symptoms creeping back-
Not real bad but I guess I had not killed off All the bugs yet--

I had saved a 12 day supply of Primaquine
just in case it tried to come back -
by the second dose the symptoms were completely gone again --

I got a bottle of 100 days worth of Primaquine
so this time I think it will be completely gone
when I finish it--cost$100 -Sanof brand

I am feeling Great and am going to ride the
monthly Fool Moon ride this Monday night at
11:59pm --I have No clue why thay just dont have it on the Saturday night--
I guess its just one of those Wacky Austin things-

If I get some pictures I will post them--Jay--

Ps-
I promise to only wheelie half the ride
this time --->

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Hoosiers51
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Jay,

When your babs symptoms creep back, what symptoms do you notice exactly? Just curious what is popping up.

Congrats on still feeling so good! Sounds like this treatment is doing a good job keeping things at bay.

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swedish lyme sufferer
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Jay,

I wonder the same,
what symtpoms do you get when you pause?

(Ever had those crawling things in the head/ on the scalp
or like pouring water inside the head? And the night sweats,
+ cramping feet)

Thanks for your great postings!
Always learn something from them

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pamoisondelune
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Thanks for the information! I immediately started on Primaquine , which my doctor didn't know about.

By the way, it CAN'T be taken with Bactrim, cephalosporins or penicillins, i think. The warning leaflet said there are very serious interactions with TRIMETHOPRIM (that's in Bactrim or Septra).

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groovy2
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Hi All

I started getting the body Buzz type feeling-
by the second dose I took the Buzz was gone-

Yesterday I took 2 Primaquine -
Today I am herxing somewhat--headache -

Pamo --Make sure you read ALL of my earlier
posts-- (about 10 posts)

you Have to take Chloroquine First-


Google-- WHO Chloroquine Primaquine Malaria --

The herx that these medicines cause is
Far beyond description--

The easiest way I can discribe it is-

I thought I was going to Drop Dead
any second for 5 solid days --

You have to be a Tuff SOB to go threw this-
No wimps allowed -- Seriously --

But over all it was worth it- Scary tho -

Make Sure you have someone to watch over you-
I was flopping around like in the
Exorcists movie--

also your mind get perty scrambled so make sure you have someone there to check ALL of your dissensions--for at least 2 weeks to a month--

Have Lots of Blankets and many electric space heaters-

( my body temp dropped to 89F--
87F is supposed to kill you )

Drink as much Hot green tea as you can--

Please dont try this treatment till you
have studied up on it and know what is going to happen--

In Africa they have to pay people to do this
treatment for Malaria -

I dont think that I would want to do this treatment If I just watched my friend go threw this ether--Jay--

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micul
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Anyone thinking about fololowing Jay's advice on Green Tea should do your own research before accepting it as fact.

You should consider that G Tea is an antioxidant, and therefore may not work synergystically with medicines that work by oxidation. These types of oxidizing anti-protozoals include Primaquine, Flagyl, Artemisinin derivatives, and so on.

The research on G Tea says that it works with many ABX to enhance their action against pathogen resistance, but the examples that are given to back up this claim are for drugs like Levaquin, Cipro, Zithromax.

These are not oxidative drugs like the antiprotozoals are. I tried adding in some green tea for 2 months at the end of a high dose Malarone combo for Babs, and it felt to me like the G Tea was interfering with the Tx.

Green Tea does have anti-malarial properties when used on its own, but there isn't any research, as far as I know, that shows that it will increase the killing power of anti-protozoals that work by oxidation. Other teas like Artemisia and Coptis would be much better choices to use in conjunction with Babs meds IMO. Here are some quotes that may help:

One final note that I have is that G Tea increases DHT production, which has been linked to hair loss.

quote:
'Green tea, black tea, oolong tea -- they all come from the same tea plant, Camellia sinensis. The leaves are simply processed differently, explains Weisburger. Green tea leaves are not fermented; they are withered and steamed. Black tea and oolong tea leaves undergo a crushing and fermenting process.

All teas from the camellia tea plant are rich in polyphenols, which are a type of antioxidant. These wonder nutrients scavenge for cell-damaging free radicals in the body and detoxify them, says Weisburger. "Astounding" aptly describes tea's antioxidant power, he tells WebMD. "Whether it's green or black, tea has about eight to 10 times the polyphenols found in fruits and vegetables."

Black and green both have different types of antioxidants than fruits and vegetables. Thearubigins, epicatechins, and catechins are among those listed in a USDA chart. All are considered flavonoids, a type of antioxidant. Brewed green and black teas have loads of those, the chart shows. (Herbal teas may also contain antioxidants but less is known about them, Weisburger says.)"

quote:
It has been
demonstrated that the interaction between PQ and
NADPH underlies many aspects of PQ toxicity. The
interaction between PQ and NADPH and the autooxidation of PQ result in the formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which results in the oxidative alterations in erythrocytes [2-5].


Erythrocytes contain enzymes and antioxidants which protect them against the activated oxygen species: hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), superoxide (O2
.- ), and hydroxyl (.OH) radicals.

These activated oxygen species are generated within normal erythrocytes after the addition of PQ and other oxidant drugs.

There are several reports about the oxidative effect of
PQ in erythrocytes

Oxidant drugs increase oxidative stress in red blood cells by generating free radicals and decreasing the activities of antioxidant enzymes.

It has been shown that the oxidative effects of PQ have been the formation of a charge transfer complex between PQ and (NAD[P])H, and auto-oxidation of PQ leading to the oxidation of the reduced pyridine nucleotides and generation of ROS (H2O2, O2 .- , .OH) [2-4].

Thus, these observations explain the various aspects of PQ toxicity in erythrocytes.



--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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Brussels
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Add artemisia annua and coptis and crash dead with the biggest herx ever. These are potent killers, not used for cleansing. I would personally never add these two herbs with babs killing if one is herxing the way Jay is describing. Specially coptis.

Only coptis alone in low amounts can make people crash, even the toughest. There were posts here in lymenet years ago about that.

I would add MSM, if I were Jay. I ate that in spoons to keep my babs herxes under control. Nothing else helped me during the worst phases of babs killing.

Babs herxes are the worst of all.

Why you don't add cardamon in powder, Jay? I know you are not much into alternatives, but cardamon once stopped my babs relapse. I swear it. It's cheap and tasty. It also helps cleansing.

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micul
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Selma says: "Add artemisia annua and coptis and crash dead with the biggest herx ever."

It appears that you are taking someone else's posted experience and turning it into a fact without ever have tried either herb yourself.

Well my personal experience says otherwise. I have used Coptis tea (2 strong cups a day) + Artemisia Annua tea (2 strong cps a day also) and combined that with a high dose Babs protocol.

I can tell you that it was not the "Herx From Hell" that some people would try to make others believe that it was. It wasn't bad for me at all....honestly.

My observation from reading and researching a lot on this board, and other boards over the past 4 years is that most of the time (not always) it's a matter of misinterpretation of what is really going on by the patient.

And often times it is mostly due to people getting themselves sooooo pysched out over what might happen to them based on someone else's blown out of proportion and misinterpreted story.

The sad thing is that most of the good experiences with drug and herb combos don't get posted for others to see, or they get missed by most people because they only read what's in front of them. Most of the time it's just the failures and bad experiences that get put up (seems to me at least).

Babs is probably the toughest co-infection to get completely rid of IMO, and therefore it has to be hit hard if one is to be succesful in getting rid of it. Feeling good during treatment is not my objective....been there done that. I did 6 tabs of Malarone + lots of other stuff/drugs/herb for 10 nonstop months.

I felt great and thought that my Babs was gone. I bought my own scope and learned how to do staining so that I could make sure that it really was gone before stopping Tx.....it wasn't gone, and that was very dissappointing to say the least. I don't want to feel bad during Tx, but unfortunately that is what happens when the bad things are being killed off. It's worse for some, and not so bad for others.

If you believe that lots of vitamins and supplements and cleansing, pulling all your teeth and amalgams out and taking it slow and easy is the right approach, that's fine with me. It's my opinion from my experience and research that that appproach is not the answer. I've tried that route.

If I had listened to what others had posted about how hard it was to tolerate 6 Malarone tabs a day, without adding in all the other stuff that I did, it would have been an even bigger waste of my time and money (lots of it).

So the moral of the story is; Don't believe everything that you read here. I believe that Jay is telling the truth about his Primaquine herxing experience. People should know that I have taken way way more of what he has, and my experience was not bad at all, and I don't take any vitamins or minerals during treatment either to soften the blow, esp milk thistle, because they interfere with the meds IMO.

I'm not saying that it won't be tough for you for a few days if you decide to try it, but don't get yourself all worried that it's gonna be unbearable based on what someone else says.

So many people on this board have abandoned good protocols just because they were soooo worried about what MIGHT or COULD happen. It reminds me of the story in the Bible where the Israelites send out spies to see what they were up against after God told them to attack and take the land.

Some were afarid and never got to see the promised land, but some believed God and went on to victory. Whether you believe this story to be fact or fiction is of no importance...the principle is the same.... FEAR is your biggest enemy.

I'm not saying that anyone should do what I have done, or what Jay has done, or what anyone else has done. My story was added for comparison to give a different point of view. Each person has to research treatments and Dr's, and then decide upon a course of action and stick to it.

Don't get side tracked or afraid because of stupid things that get posted here (Jamescase's experiments for example)....you know, his resarch (yeah, right [puke] Read it for intertainmment if you want, but don't take that stuff seriously.

Primaquine and Sulfa drugs should not be taken unless you are sure that you don't have a G-6-PD (Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase) deficiency that can make these drugs leathal for some. Always talk to your Dr about any treatment before trying it.

--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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pamoisondelune
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Thanks Everyone!

Jay--- I just came off of 2 months of Mepron/Zith, refused to take any more or buy any more till it's off patent in Feb 2010. I could hardly tolerate the unhealthy high-fat, no antioxidant Mepron diet.

Anti-oxidants--- is it all right to take them several hours apart from the oxidants? I hope so, that's what i'm doing; i can't live without anti-oxidants some of the time in the day.

Jay--- Thanks for your concern. I desperately needed a follow-up, after the Mepron/Zith removed the Babesia symptoms. Just for control. I don't have bad symptoms or bad herxes, so it's sort of all right for a while to keep it under control. I refuse to take Chloroquine, i think, because of the potential eye damage. I don't have an lyme MD specialist right now.

Micul--- yes, i'm more like you; probably the mild New England type strain that is mostly endemic and asymptomatic in this area, i've read.
Selma's European strain is very dangerous, 60% die i've read, i think(?).

Thank you all for the Coptis reference! And the Aretmeisia tea--- i have a bag of Artemisia powder but didn't know what to do with it, because i think i read the dose is unmeasured and unpredictable.

Jay--- I've been taking the Primaquine for a few days along with Artemisinin, and also separately cardamom, Elecampane. Don't worry, no reaction at all. Just keeping the symptoms down!

I read that it's ok to take anti-oxidants 2 1/2 hours after the Artemisinin, i think.

I'm more like Alv, who wrote that she had to have high doses of everything to get results.

Thanks,
--- from Pamois.

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micul
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Here's a good article/study on the absorption of Primaquine for those that are interested in using it. Click on Link for complete infomation.

Primaquine LInk

quote:
This is the first study describing the effects of gender, food and grapefruit juice on the pharmacokinetics of primaquine and its major plasma metabolite, carboxyprimaquine. Although gender disparity in the pharmacokinetics of numerous drugs has been identified, the differences are generally only subtle [20].

Physiological and molecular differences such as drug transporters and drug-metabolizing enzymes between genders can cause sex-related differences in the pharmacokinetics of drugs. For example, females tend to have lower body weight, a greater percentage of body fat and higher CYP3A4 activity than males.

Although the present study provided no significant evidence for sex-related differences in the pharmacokinetics of primaquine and carboxyprimaquine, the number of subjects was small, which may lead to a Type II error. Our finding, however, differed from that of Singhasivanon et al.[8], who reported healthy Thai females to have significantly higher Cmax and AUC0-∞ values of primaquine than males (252 ng ml−1vs. 139 ng ml−1 and 1900 ng ml−1 h vs. 1307 ng ml−1 h, respectively) following the first dose of a daily 15-mg regimen of primaquine.

This discordance in results between the two studies is difficult to explain, as the Cmax and AUC0-∞ of primaquine were about twofold less in the Vietnamese subjects given twice the dose than that administered to the Thai subjects. The Cmax and AUC0-∞ values of primaquine in the Vietnamese subjects, particularly in the males, were also comparable to those of Mihaly et al.[7] in healthy caucasian males administered 30 mg primaquine.

It is generally recommended that primaquine should be taken with a meal to minimize any gastrointestinal disturbances associated with the use of this drug for the treatment or prophylaxis of malaria. Since food is known to stimulate splanchnic and hepatic blood flow, delay gastric emptying, induce the release of bile acids and can cause chemical or physical drug interactions [9], the bioavailability of primaquine may be altered by the intake of food.

Our study showed a meal containing ∼ 28 g of fat significantly increased the bioavailability of primaquine by 26% and 14%, as measured by Cmax and AUC, respectively, and that the presence of food did not delay the rate of primaquine absorption. These findings suggest that the bioavailability of primaquine can be maximized by administering the drug with a meal.

However, the increase in primaquine concentrations with food was relatively modest and is unlikely to cause an increase in the incidence and severity of adverse events associated with the drug. Improved bioavailability of primaquine may be an additional reason for stressing that this drug should be taken with a meal, since higher primaquine concentrations may be beneficial in the treatment of increasingly drug-tolerant infections of vivax malaria [3].

The increased bioavailability of primaquine when coadministered with grapefruit juice indicates that gut CYP3A4 activity is involved in the drug's first-pass metabolism. Grapefruit juice-primaquine interaction was quite variable, with some individuals having no increase in primaquine concentrations and others showing up to a twofold increase (e.g. the grapefruit juice to fasting AUC0-∞ ratio ranged from 0.71 to 2.18).

This marked variability is presumably associated with the large interindividual differences in the content of mucosal CYP enzyme activity in the small intestine among individuals. Although the extent of absorption of primaquine was increased by grapefruit juice as determined by elevated maximum primaquine concentrations, the rate of absorption was not altered, with similar tmax values between the fasting and grapefruit juice phases.

Thus, grapefruit juice does not appear to accelerate gastric emptying or enhance dissolution of the primaquine tablet. The increase in oral bioavailability of primaquine by grapefruit juice would have led to more primaquine being available to be metabolized by the liver to carboxyprimaquine. This increase in parent drug would have compensated for the reduced carboxyprimaquine formation in the stomach due to gut metabolism inhibition by grapefruit juice.

Such a sequence of events would explain the lack of change in carboxyprimaquine concentrations between the fasting and grapefruit juice phases, since grapefruit juice does not inhibit liver CYP3A4 metabolism [16].

The mechanism of grapefruit juice-drug interaction is complex and as yet not fully understood [21]. In vitro studies have identified the flavonoid, naringin and the furanocoumarins, bergamottin and 6',7′-dihydroxybergamottin as probable active constituents in grapefruit juice [22, 23]. These constituents can vary considerably among types and brands of grapefruit juice [24].

However, when pure naringin was administered to humans a significant grapefruit juice interaction with the prototypical CYP3A4 substrate, felodipine, failed to materialize [25]. Recently, in human studies, bergamottin and 6′,7′-dihydroxybergamottin have been reported to be important inhibitors of CYP3A4 in both Seville orange and grapefruit juices [26]. Other possible mechanisms for grapefruit juice-drug interactions could include inhibition of intestinal P-glycoprotein-mediated efflux transport of drugs and organic anion-transporting polypeptides [21].

In conclusion, no apparent sex-related differences were found in the pharmacokinetics of primaquine and carboxyprimaquine after a single oral dose of primaquine to warrant a different dose regimen for males and females. Food increased primaquine concentrations, suggesting that primaquine should be taken with or immediately after a meal to maximize bioavailability and clinical efficacy.

Although diluted grapefruit juice increased primaquine concentrations, the marked interindividual variability demonstrated that the quantitative effects of grapefruit juice on the pharmacokinetics of primaquine are not predictable at an individual level.

Because of this unpredictability and the lack of information on the effects of full-strength grapefruit juice on the pharmacokinetics of primaquine, it would be prudent to advise people not to take primaquine with grapefruit juice or any grapefruit products.



--------------------
You're only a failure when you stop trying.

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Brussels
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Micul, don't say I didn't try the herbs. I only had herbs here to get rid of babs and ALL tick born infections, even though I took 3 days of Riamet once in 2005, but it didn't kill the whole of my babs.

I got rid of babesia ONLY with herbs then. And twice, as I got reinfected years later.

I abandoned coptis after a bad experience with my kidneys loong time ago. Loads of pain there.

But I came back to it again recently, very very low dose in decoction, and got a reasonable reaction, but still strong. Not for babs though. I can't touch the powder, only the decoction. The powder is too strong for me. I only use 1cm of the root and do the decoction and ingest it during the whole day. It's already strong this way.

I'm just posting my experience. People crash with coptis, it is known as one of the most potent killers in the Chinese repertory.

Artemisia annua is less strong. I did add artemisia annua to my protocols, on and off. Some people though herx more on artemisia annua than on artemisinin! This has been reported here and in Buhner's forum many times.

Some people seem to be tougher, like you probably. I am posting MY EXPERIENCE. Never I would add coptis if I'm herxing hell like Jay is describing. He knows babs killing as he's been on hell trying to get rid of it for quite some time.

I ended up in emergency while killing babs, unable to breathe. My combo was artemisinin high doses, andrographis higher doses and that was enough to send me to emergency.

come on, no single person here is the same.

the tough ones, that rarely herx, can take whole bottles of abx or herbs and most feel nothing or little. I'm on the other extremity.

I do promote herbs because I used them ONLY, but I don't promote killer herbs to someone that says he can't be left alone due to herxes.

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Erica741
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quote:
Originally posted by groovy2:
Hi All

I started getting the body Buzz type feeling-
by the second dose I took the Buzz was gone-

Yesterday I took 2 Primaquine -
Today I am herxing somewhat--headache -

Pamo --Make sure you read ALL of my earlier
posts-- (about 10 posts)

you Have to take Chloroquine First-


Google-- WHO Chloroquine Primaquine Malaria --

The herx that these medicines cause is
Far beyond description--

The easiest way I can discribe it is-

I thought I was going to Drop Dead
any second for 5 solid days --

You have to be a Tuff SOB to go threw this-
No wimps allowed -- Seriously --

But over all it was worth it- Scary tho -

Make Sure you have someone to watch over you-
I was flopping around like in the
Exorcists movie--

also your mind get perty scrambled so make sure you have someone there to check ALL of your dissensions--for at least 2 weeks to a month--

Have Lots of Blankets and many electric space heaters-

( my body temp dropped to 89F--
87F is supposed to kill you )

Drink as much Hot green tea as you can--

Please dont try this treatment till you
have studied up on it and know what is going to happen--

In Africa they have to pay people to do this
treatment for Malaria -

I dont think that I would want to do this treatment If I just watched my friend go threw this ether--Jay--

Jay, Can you update us on how you are doing on this Primaquine treatment? (Sorry if I missed any subsequent posts on another thread).

This treatment sounds promising for stubborn babesia. Yet it also sounds potentially very toxic and dangerous if not properly prescribed and monitored by the MD?

What is your daily dose of Primaquine?

Why does Chloroquine have to be taken before starting Primaquine?

Thanks for the info. I hope you are doing better now! [Smile]

Erica

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Erica741
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quote:
Originally posted by pamoisondelune:

By the way, it CAN'T be taken with Bactrim, cephalosporins or penicillins, i think. The warning leaflet said there are very serious interactions with TRIMETHOPRIM (that's in Bactrim or Septra).

Does anyone know if this is accurate? I know a patient taking Primaquine with many other abx, including Bactrim and Bicillin (injected penicillin formula). [Eek!]
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Alv
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Using Muscle testing has helped to give the body what it needs based on bugs mutation or new ones comming up.Later I went even further to identify them ,but the above aproach helped me originally before i found It was LYME and Coinfections.

[ 03-24-2009, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Alv ]

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nellypointis
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Could I ask that people specifically mention each time they use some form of energy/muscle testing to guide them in their diagnosis?

I often read "this or that is my biggest issue" then I realise the testing was through some form of muscle testing (which I consider to be garbage, so I don't want to waste time!)

Nelly

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psano2
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Micul,

Have you gotten rid of Babesia or are you still fighting it? If so, what are you currently using for it?

Patti

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Alv
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nellypointis !

I see that you have been a member since 2001.
" That says A LOT" .

By the way...KNOWING if it is BABESIA or other INFECTIONS or strain HAS A LOT to do with the way you treat it.Otherwise you get back in circle.

[ 03-23-2009, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Alv ]

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nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by Alv:
nellypointis !

I see that you have been a member since 2001.I guess you are not over this disiease yet or maybe you are here to collect information .

Nasty, nasty, aren't we!

All I asked was that when people say they base their decisions on MUSCLE testing, they would say so clearly, istead of saying They HAVE this infection or that infection, that's all!

And I shall repeat: I think muscle testing IS garbage, that's MY opinion. Whatever your story might be.

Nelly

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Erica741
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This thread is about Babesia and Primaquine treatment.

Please delete your argumentative off-topic posts, so we can continue to keep the thread on topic and have a better chance at getting responses about Primaquine and other Babesia treatments.

Why not start a new thread about muscle testing? I'd be interested in that!

Thanks! [Smile]

Posts: 408 | From California | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
nellypointis
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quote:
Originally posted by Erica741:
This thread is about Babesia and Primaquine treatment.

Yes Erica, that's what I'm interested in as well!
That's why it is important to me that it remain serious, and when people draw conclusions (re what is ailing them and what is helping them) on the basis of muscle testing, I know not to read on as I will not be able to trust what they are reporting re improvement of such or such a condition.

I'll gladly delete my posts if people agree to state clearly when they draw conclusions based on some energy/muscle testing. I am not asking them not to muscle test, I just don't want to get half way a post that says: "I have Babesia, Mycoplasma and Borelia, and this or that abx is good for me" only to find out that the bases are, to my way of thinking, very shaky.

Nelly

Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
groovy2
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Hi All--

I am Doing GREAT -
ZERO Babs symptoms--
Zero Lyme symptoms

I am going to post a update in a day or 2-
I have been Buzzy catching up with Life--

I see that My post turned into a Flame War-

I did not waste the time to read who
started it but PLEASE write your OWN
post if you want to fight --

If you have Constructive info to Add
thats Great and Please do -- Jay --

Ps
YES My LLMD proscribed this for me -

Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
tosho
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Hello Jay, please clear your mailbox, I would like to send you PM. Thanks.

--------------------
[Bb WB igm+] [B.henselae PCR+] [Chlamydia pneum.igm+igg+] [EBV igm-igg+]

Posts: 844 | From Poland | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
groovy2
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Hi Tisho -

I cleared up my PM box --Thanks--Jay--

Posts: 2999 | From Austin tx USA | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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